Should HoT maps be made less difficult?

[Echoherb.6528]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > What's interesting is when I ask this question in game in any of the map chats, I get the completely opposite response. Goes to show the difference between players who post on the forums and don't.

>

> iI you want feel free to stay in queensdale for the rest of your gaming life. Or you can make an effort to improve yourself and train yourself in slightly out numbered siutations in HoT maps. They are harder than old tyria maps but no where near as hard as T3 or T4 fractals and raids. Learn to kite and cast skills at the same time, learn to mislead the dumb pve mobs in positioning with teleports, learn to take different utilities based on the situation, learn enemies attack patterns and predict where you should stand so you don't get hit. This isn't a dumb game like those trinity based mmos where you mostly just stand still and attack the enemies. No you need to be more engaging, dynamic and be more aware of your surroundings. A fight is not over until you are absolutely dead.

 

You're assuming I don't already know this. I have no problem dodging and being aware of my sorroundings,or predicting attack patterns. I'd consider myself decent at the game. I just think it could be made to be a bit more solo friendly. I like how core tyria split things into regular and group events, whereas you could be expected to solo the regular events of you want instead of all of it being group content.

[Ayakaru.6583]

If hot maps were made any easier it’d be a “press space to win”map.

I’m happy things don’t die with 1 press of the autoattack key.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > > What's interesting is when I ask this question in game in any of the map chats, I get the completely opposite response. Goes to show the difference between players who post on the forums and don't.

> >

> > iI you want feel free to stay in queensdale for the rest of your gaming life. Or you can make an effort to improve yourself and train yourself in slightly out numbered siutations in HoT maps. They are harder than old tyria maps but no where near as hard as T3 or T4 fractals and raids. Learn to kite and cast skills at the same time, learn to mislead the dumb pve mobs in positioning with teleports, learn to take different utilities based on the situation, learn enemies attack patterns and predict where you should stand so you don't get hit. This isn't a dumb game like those trinity based mmos where you mostly just stand still and attack the enemies. No you need to be more engaging, dynamic and be more aware of your surroundings. A fight is not over until you are absolutely dead.

>

> You're assuming I don't already know this. I have no problem dodging and being aware of my sorroundings,or predicting attack patterns. I'd consider myself decent at the game. I just think it could be made to be a bit more solo friendly. I like how core tyria split things into regular and group events, whereas you could be expected to solo the regular events of you want instead of all of it being group content.

 

What exactly is your point? HoT maps have regular and group events as well. And just like in core Tyria, some group events are actually soloable while others aren't.

[Conncept.7638]

Not voting because this poll doesn't even address the issue. It's not about being less or more difficult, it's about being difficult in a way that players can learn from and adapt to, and even enjoy the challenge.

 

There is a right and wrong way to increase difficulty, and HoT was all the wrong ways combined into one.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> it's about being difficult in a way that players can learn from and adapt to, and even enjoy the challenge.

 

Which it is.

 

 

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> Not voting because this poll doesn't even address the issue. It's not about being less or more difficult, it's about being difficult in a way that players can learn from and adapt to, and even enjoy the challenge.

>

> There is a right and wrong way to increase difficulty, and HoT was all the wrong ways combined into one.

 

Well it depends. Going from personal story and core zones to HOT is a huge jump in difficulty. Going from core to season 2 to HOT is a lot less of a jump though.

[Echoherb.6528]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > > > What's interesting is when I ask this question in game in any of the map chats, I get the completely opposite response. Goes to show the difference between players who post on the forums and don't.

> > >

> > > iI you want feel free to stay in queensdale for the rest of your gaming life. Or you can make an effort to improve yourself and train yourself in slightly out numbered siutations in HoT maps. They are harder than old tyria maps but no where near as hard as T3 or T4 fractals and raids. Learn to kite and cast skills at the same time, learn to mislead the dumb pve mobs in positioning with teleports, learn to take different utilities based on the situation, learn enemies attack patterns and predict where you should stand so you don't get hit. This isn't a dumb game like those trinity based mmos where you mostly just stand still and attack the enemies. No you need to be more engaging, dynamic and be more aware of your surroundings. A fight is not over until you are absolutely dead.

> >

> > You're assuming I don't already know this. I have no problem dodging and being aware of my sorroundings,or predicting attack patterns. I'd consider myself decent at the game. I just think it could be made to be a bit more solo friendly. I like how core tyria split things into regular and group events, whereas you could be expected to solo the regular events of you want instead of all of it being group content.

>

> What exactly is your point? HoT maps have regular and group events as well. And just like in core Tyria, some group events are actually soloable while others aren't.

 

My point is that all the regular events feel like group events, they are soloable but it's tedious. The problem is the "difficulty" stems from mobs with extremely high health and damage and being clustered in large dense groups. In pof the regular events are difficult, but feel reasonably so and actually scale appropiately based on how many people are doing them.

[OriOri.8724]

I think HoT maps are mostly fine, there are only a couple events that need to scale better with fewer players. Notably the legendary vinetooth, and some of the DS events should scale down better. Despite HoT being out for 2 or 3 years now, its still entirely too common to get into a DS map that isn't full but has just enough players to do it, yet no one knows wtf they are doing, so one or 2 lanes are doomed to fail. That and TD but only because I fucking hate TD

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > > @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > > > > What's interesting is when I ask this question in game in any of the map chats, I get the completely opposite response. Goes to show the difference between players who post on the forums and don't.

> > > >

> > > > iI you want feel free to stay in queensdale for the rest of your gaming life. Or you can make an effort to improve yourself and train yourself in slightly out numbered siutations in HoT maps. They are harder than old tyria maps but no where near as hard as T3 or T4 fractals and raids. Learn to kite and cast skills at the same time, learn to mislead the dumb pve mobs in positioning with teleports, learn to take different utilities based on the situation, learn enemies attack patterns and predict where you should stand so you don't get hit. This isn't a dumb game like those trinity based mmos where you mostly just stand still and attack the enemies. No you need to be more engaging, dynamic and be more aware of your surroundings. A fight is not over until you are absolutely dead.

> > >

> > > You're assuming I don't already know this. I have no problem dodging and being aware of my sorroundings,or predicting attack patterns. I'd consider myself decent at the game. I just think it could be made to be a bit more solo friendly. I like how core tyria split things into regular and group events, whereas you could be expected to solo the regular events of you want instead of all of it being group content.

> >

> > What exactly is your point? HoT maps have regular and group events as well. And just like in core Tyria, some group events are actually soloable while others aren't.

>

> My point is that all the regular events feel like group events, they are soloable but it's tedious. The problem is the "difficulty" stems from mobs with extremely high health and damage and being clustered in large dense groups. In pof the regular events are difficult, but feel reasonably so and actually scale appropiately based on how many people are doing them.

 

I think you're exaggerating here.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Conncept.7638" said:

> Not voting because this poll doesn't even address the issue. It's not about being less or more difficult, it's about being difficult in a way that players can learn from and adapt to, and even enjoy the challenge.

>

> There is a right and wrong way to increase difficulty, and HoT was all the wrong ways combined into one.

 

I'm afraid you'll have to explain how HoT is difficult in a way that players are unable to learn, adapt, and enjoy. I can show you videos of me, learning and adapting. I've evolved my build and improved my game since picking up Mirage. I even have videos of the same boss at earlier points in time with damage meters so you can see both the improvement by the numbers and by the gameplay!

 

As a fresh 80 it was a different story. Core Tyria never pressured me to learn and adapt. When I first entered HoT I fell flat on my face to all of the usual things that kill players new to the jungle. That forced me to learn and adapt. And I did! Veterans, elites, even champions don't scare me anymore. I can charge right into an army of mordrem and tear them apart! It's fun and rewarding when I recall how far I've come.

 

It isn't just the combat either. I've learned the map layouts as well. I enjoy going back to maps like Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink that were once a challenge to navigate and are now a joy.

 

You're welcome to your own opinion on HoT, but I don't see how HoT prevents players from learning, adapting, or enjoying the content. Clearly, my experience has been the exact opposite. Here are some videos showing how I've learned and adapted:

 

This video was recorded following the 11/28/2017 patch:

 

This is my latest build, recorded a week ago:

 

Not only did I improve my time by 22%, but you can see I manage my health and endurance well, taking only hits I can afford to take and healing them back without rushing and wasting endurance. As a result, I'm forced out to range less often and the fight goes much more smoothly. It just looks much calmer and more collected than my relatively panicked gameplay in the earlier video. That's a few months of practice and build tweaking in video form for you.

[InsaneQR.7412]

At launch they were annoying and difficult at some points. Now they have hit the sweet spot of fair and ernest.

Its more for the grindy-meta event moods/players but they are good as they are now.

[Chasind.3128]

Nothing is actually difficult in this game, it caters to casuals. It's fine the way it is. Any easier and everything would turn your brain to even more mush.

[kharmin.7683]

I'm very casual and I struggle mightily with HoT maps (solo); however, they clearly have their fans and as such I don't believe they ought to be changed.

[Granrey.8920]

mounts have made things ok now

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Chasind.3128" said:

> Nothing is actually difficult in this game, it caters to casuals. It's fine the way it is. Any easier and everything would turn your brain to even more mush.

 

If they made HoT any easier this game will lose a lot of players I suspect because it would make people feel completely brain dead.

 

AliamRationem.5172 is absolutely right when he says the HoT maps forces you to adapt and think. And imo it is on the right level of difficulty where its reasonably engaging, forces you to think a bit in order to adapt and survive but not too hard that it makes you feel impossible.

 

If a friend of mine on her reaper in viper gear running on a shitty computer that boasts an awesome 10frames per second did ok in HoT maps I don't see why the OP would have any issues. Its very much a learn to play and learn to adapt issue.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"Echoherb.6528" said:

> > > What's interesting is when I ask this question in game in any of the map chats, I get the completely opposite response. Goes to show the difference between players who post on the forums and don't.

> >

> > iI you want feel free to stay in queensdale for the rest of your gaming life. Or you can make an effort to improve yourself and train yourself in slightly out numbered siutations in HoT maps. They are harder than old tyria maps but no where near as hard as T3 or T4 fractals and raids. Learn to kite and cast skills at the same time, learn to mislead the dumb pve mobs in positioning with teleports, learn to take different utilities based on the situation, learn enemies attack patterns and predict where you should stand so you don't get hit. This isn't a dumb game like those trinity based mmos where you mostly just stand still and attack the enemies. No you need to be more engaging, dynamic and be more aware of your surroundings. A fight is not over until you are absolutely dead.

>

> You're assuming I don't already know this. I have no problem dodging and being aware of my sorroundings,or predicting attack patterns. I'd consider myself decent at the game. I just think it could be made to be a bit more solo friendly. I like how core tyria split things into regular and group events, whereas you could be expected to solo the regular events of you want instead of all of it being group content.

 

Um no, if you are finding yourself needing stealth to navigate the HoT maps then you are doing soemthing wrong. If you want to make an effort to improve take off your stealth skills on your thief and try again. Stealth should only be used to skip content, not to survive them. Think about different trait combinations and utility skills that you can take.

[Yamazuki.6073]

In my opinion part of what makes Heart of Thorns seem difficult is due to lack of experience, gear, and poor builds. I started playing when HoT was new and I found it annoying, however, now I don't find it difficult and can solo a lot of things that can be soloed. I do think some things could have their health dropped slightly and minor damage decreases, but not a high degree of a difficulty decrease. Due to this I didn't vote for either option as there's no middle ground available to vote for.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Lord Kreegan.8123" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Lord Kreegan.8123" said:

> > > > @"deatine.2498" said:

> > > > Well I pretty much hated HoT; not necessarily because of the much more difficult enemies, but the friggin navigation/where the waypoints are.

> > > > I wouldn't mind if it had been advertised that HoT is much harder than the core game (guess I overlooked it?), because then I probably would not have bought HoT.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Goettel.4389" said:

> > > > > I sometimes wonder why people play MMOs if they won't group.

> > > >

> > > > MMO does not necessarily mean "being _forced_ to play together" just because all other MMOs did it that way. MMO simply means "there's lots of other actual people". What any specific game makes of that is a different story.

> > > > It was one of the defining things of the core game that you could do pretty much everything on your own if you wanted, but you could do it faster/better in a group. And I'm pretty sure it was intentionally designed that way.

> > >

> > > People need to remember that "MMO" absolutely does not mean "ZERG Online", but mindless zergs are what are required for HoT.

> > > If you're part of a large guild that regularly runs HP trains or you were around when HoT was released and zergs were common, then HoT is/was great and wonderful. Otherwise -- be honest if you can set your ego aside for a while -- HoT sucks donkey dongs.

> >

> > You should probably learn how the game is played before you make such obviously false statements. HP challenges are solo or small group content. The idea that you need a "mindless zerg" to defeat these challenges is patently false and completely ridiculous. But, of course, you think I'm being dishonest. Fortunately, I bring proof that even the toughest of these challenges can be done solo. And if I can do them solo, then that means plenty of other players can and most of the rest can manage these challenges in small groups - not massive zergs.

> >

> >

>

> You should probably realize that lots of people have lots of experience with this game SINCE RELEASE before you make such obviously ARROGANT statements. White knighting is fine and dandy when you're talking to 12-year old kids in grandma's basement using a credit card filched from mommy's purse, but adults see right through the kind of crap you're spouting.

> HoT has major problems. YOU are the one being patently dishonest... as you always are.

 

You claimed that mindless zergs are required for HoT.

 

This is factually incorrect.

 

Stating as fact something that is factually incorrect is an indication of either purposeful dishonesty, or ignorance of the facts.

 

 

[Fallesafe.5932]

I don't think HoT maps are that hard (especially with the addition of mounts). You DO have to be on your toes a little bit. But what are you saying, that everything should be easily soloable?? There are still three-zone HP and MP groups running multiple times every day. Why don't you just join one?

[castlemanic.3198]

HoT absolutely needs to have its difficulty toned down. Especially with a new expansion out, all of it needs retweaking to make sure smaller groups can handle the content.

HPs 10000000000% need to be made veterans and soloable. No exceptions. It's objectively bad game design to require groups for core character progression.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> HoT absolutely needs to have its difficulty toned down. Especially with a new expansion out, all of it needs retweaking to make sure smaller groups can handle the content.

> HPs 10000000000% need to be made veterans and soloable. No exceptions. It's *subjectively* bad game design to require groups for core character progression.

 

Fixed it for you.

 

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Fixed it for you.

>

 

Nah, what you did was change a factually correct statement into an incorrect one because of your misconceptions.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > Fixed it for you.

> >

>

> Nah, what you did was change a factually correct statement into an incorrect one because of your misconceptions.

 

Then by all means prove that it is **objectively** bad game design.

 

Just to add on to this, proof isn’t objective if it’s based on your own personal belief or preference.

[Ashen.2907]

Most HP's in HoT are already soloable.

[castlemanic.3198]

1. Levelling a character to 80 provides a character with the ability to unlock every trait and every traitline without going into the world and acquiring a single hero point. This can be done with a completely solo experience without interacting with any other player. Chances are you have encountered other players, but other players are not, by the very design of the game, required to level a character to 80 or to acquire the ability to fully customize a character through traits or weapon selection. Thus the game, by every definition, says that you do not need to play in groups to gain character customization.

2. Hero points all throughout core tyria are soloable, despite the ability to take on challenges as a group. This design detail says that while other players may assist, they are not required for core character progression. Thus, we have a trend from core Tyria that entirely states that hero point challenges are meant to be soloable. (Side note: each hero point is worth 1 point.)

3. Heart of thorns releases, having each hero point be worth 10 points instead of one, signalling from a design perspective that they are more challenging. However, it is really only through press release information that says that hero point challenges will require larger groups, nothing in game signifies that hero point challenges would suddenly require groups, only that they will be more difficult.

4. After initial backlash, several Heart of Thorns hero point challenges were altered significantly in order to become soloable, meaning that the developers realised it was a bad idea to place group restrictions on Heart of Thorns hero point challenges, as they realised not everyone is going to be able to acquire enough hero points to attain the new elite spec systems. It's also very important to note that elite specs are a core feature of the expansion, and are a form of core character progression, thus they should follow the established rule that persists throughout core Tyria that hero challenges should be soloable, but because they cost 10 hero points, they should be more difficult than core tyria hero challenges. Most of those changes hero point challenges also lie within Verdant Brink, though a couple were changed in Auric Basin if memory served, the first two maps in Heart of Thorns. Not every Hero point was changed in Verdant Brink, however.

5. Upon Path of Fire's release, the Hero Points there were indeed more difficult than core tyria hero points, but they were also able to be completed solo, following a solid design philosophy that flows from core Tyria into Elona. The devs also made the decision to not require a purchase of Heart of Thorns to play in Path of Fire, meaning that a player wouldn't need to experience the difficult of Hero Point challenges in Elona and can go straight ahead into the more sensibly difficult Path of Fire Hero Point challenges.

6. Thus, when a game's entire philosophy from the beginning of the game's development says that core progression should be soloable, and the developers actively make an effort to correct a mistake that made core progression impossible for people to complete solo and in the following expansion make Hero Points soloable, it then follows that the game design itself requires core character progression to be soloable.

 

And that's only looking at GW2, isolated from the rest of the gaming world. Every MMO has core character progression tied to soloable content, even within a world that contains hundreds or thousands of other players within the same playing space. Now, gear progression has been a thing in MMOs too, but there is a separate tier of gear progression that is related to group content rather than solo content, but gear progression isn't core character progression because gear does not unlock core features of a class. Using this information, we can gather that it absolutely makes no sense to have a very temporary shift within the game that says groups are mandatory for core character progression. Indeed it is objectively poor design to go against something that has been established throughout the entire game itself and also throughout the entire gaming industry.

 

Even dark souls, the epitome of difficult game content, did not require players to play online in order to progress through the main storyline, nor to level up their own characters through the help (or interference) of other players. But they made it an option. However, dark souls is not an MMO, so maybe the argument is irrelevant. in that case.

We could, however, go into other MMOs and see what they do in terms of core character progression (rather than gear progression).

 

In World of Warcraft: Legion, we have an interesting and unique take on character and gear progression, which is the artifact system. Artifact weapons are weapons of immense power that can be upgraded through artifact power, and provide a core character ability and core character progression for each class (each class has a specialisation it can choose to play as, and each specialisation has its own artifact weapon that can be levelled up). This is one of the few times where gear progression and core character progression actually enter a mixed bag. But guess what. The designers made it so that core character progression can be attained without the aid of other players. Artifact power can be obtained in any number of ways, including group or solo content. While it is more efficient and faster to obtain artifact power in a group setting, it's still possible to completely level up an artifact with every trait by doing solo content. So even in that case, the game's design allows players to obtain maximum core character progression through solo content.

 

Everquest 2 has a new and unique system called ascension, where it allows players to grant their characters a new set of abilities related to a theme that their class may not have access to (for example, classes with no healing abilities can become minor healers through the thaumaturge ascended class). You can gain experience for your ascended class through solo content. So again, even in a system that can be awkwardly placed as a parallel to the elite spec system, it's still designed to be obtained via soloable content.

 

When everything everywhere tells you core character progression is always attainable solo, including everything IN GW2 (including developers taking steps to fix the issue and then making said content soloable in a future expansion), then it means that objectively speaking, it's bad design to force group content onto core character progression.