RAIDS LACK CLASS DIVERSITY- Possible Solutions.

[Substatic.6958]

And I thought WoW was kinda bad with its 10% variance across 25+ dps specs...

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17

 

GW2 "balance" is non existent in comparison to this.

[Adamsdjr.1350]

ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

>

>

 

People like to counter this with the argument about the small differences. However, small differences mean you can't have dps specs which really excel under different conditions like we have here. It's always a tradeoff between diversity and balance. The more diverse the specs, the less balanced they will appear in the context of a single encounter.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

>

>

 

this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

>

>

 

To be heard, DPS minmaxing is about doing the runs faster when kills are already a certainty. When kill is far from certainty, mixmaxing dps/failsafe support ratio is true mixmaxing, as well as making sure that randoms are playing build with best dps/skill required ratio. Hint: getting DHs or weavers as randoms are far from pug min-maxing. If squad wipes to damage even once, extra healer would increase survival chances by 45-50% while having extra dps instead of 3rd healer means 17% less time to wipe to mechanics (less if people get downs that wouldn't have happened with extra healer).

 

45% vs <17%. Wish people understood.

[Substatic.6958]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

> >

> >

>

> this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

 

This.

 

The other top played MMOs, WoW and FF, do not have class diversity issues nearly as problematic as GW2. In GW2, most of the vanilla specs are unusable for DPS (or really anything....there goes 1/3rd of your roster). Several elite specs are trash. An entire class is a joke (Necro). There is only 1 or 2 (pushing it there) viable healer or tank specs. DPS variation is pushing over 30%, that is far from just "min maxing". There are 3 mandatory classes/specs in a group of 10....

 

This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

 

When you see other games with many more specs being not just viable, but competitive, I just think GW2s balance team is small or something. I can't fathom what else is the issue.

 

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > > ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

>

> This.

>

> The other top played MMOs, WoW and FF, do not have class diversity issues nearly as problematic as GW2. In GW2, most of the vanilla specs are unusable for DPS (or really anything....there goes 1/3rd of your roster). Several elite specs are trash. An entire class is a joke (Necro). There is only 1 or 2 (pushing it there) viable healer or tank specs. DPS variation is pushing over 30%, that is far from just "min maxing". There are 3 mandatory classes/specs in a group of 10....

>

> This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

>

> When you see other games with many more specs being not just viable, but competitive, I just think GW2s balance team is small or something. I can't fathom what else is the issue.

>

 

Not really true.

SC's highest average on small hitbox are power weaver and condimirage with 35k. A build 30% below that would be 24,5k. Even if we go by the other way and say strongest build is 30% stronger than this build, the weakest class/stat combo would need to hit 26,9k benchmark. And as of now, only power soulbeast is around that. Most powerful builds for other class/stat combos reach around 29k territory, making them 18% weaker than weeber or weeber is 20,2% stronger than 2nd worst class/stat combo (power reaper). And within 10% from combos' strongest version, there's dozens of alternative weapon combo/spec versions. But you'll never see them 'cause they're not potentially best. And ofc the real difference between them isn't measured and published by anyone since people who can pull off 99% of any build's potential are only benching best alternatives.

 

Save for Kitty, but she can't do it again before august BP, not to mention that she's not skilled enough for pulling off optimal rotations properly as her raid skill level playing any class is better than 80-90% of players but worse than top 10% (except for DH as top 5th%). And she's horrible at weeber and conditeef. So all Kitty can do is show how builds would work at generally expectable pug skill level. But guess there's still need for her stuffs since some people keep exaggerating the difference between meta and alternatives *grinds teeth*. But videos of tests will be on request, not autoloaded, not before August.

 

When it comes to healing and chronos, chronos are the indebatable boonbot, especially chaos chronos. If chronos provide boons, it only leaves might for other healers, which opens a few possibilities.

1. 1 good mightbot druid and a pure healer of choice.

2. 2 bad druids

3. 2 FBs/rene/heralds/ healengis/scourges/good ele healers

 

Druid's main benefit is providing might for 10 when it provides might and with good druid and 2 chaos chronos, boons are covered and 2nd healer can be anything, preferably something defensive for better failsafe against mechanics.

Unfortunately, incomprehensibly average druid performs at 35-40% of good druid's potential. According to what Kitty's been seeing on Gw2 Raidar, they provide max 8-9 mights per squad member, or 16-18 for 5 if comparing 2 druids to 2 other healers. And as it happens, rene would output more or same easier. FB can easily provide that on anything that isn't VG, Matt or Xera. Healengi can do it, too. And for scourge, mightbotting is child's play. Chaos chronos can provide the rest, as well as peoples' self might-gen. Only benefits druids have are some extra utilities for a couple bosses (some other classes have those utilities too) and spirits.

 

Let's see.

1. Healengi has PD available to replace spotter.

2. FB ensures maximum quickness uptimes and shares dozens of blocks to defend against mechanics.

3. Healrene can bring AP to replace spotter, as well as ensure full alacrity.

4. Healscourge provides Vampiric Presense to compensate a bit for spotter. And with healscourges, there's no time spent on ressing as they pull downed people out of danger zone and essentially aoe auto-res them with a couple key presses. Not that it'd be easy to get downed with those barriers. And dat sweet epicleave ^^

 

Yes yes, the 20% damage gaps are still a bit huge, but pulling out more of the potential of lowly-potent class can still easily outperform average-played meta (especially average DHs. Sorry about hate but Kitty just can't comprehend average DH and druid numbers she sees on gw2 raidar as those players would do way better as power renes or deadeyes or condisoulbeasts or kitless holos).

 

Sorry about long wall of text. Boring PCless night is boring.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> Let's see.

> 1. Healengi has PD available to replace spotter.

> 2. FB ensures maximum quickness uptimes and shares dozens of blocks to defend against mechanics.

> 3. Healrene can bring AP to replace spotter, as well as ensure full alacrity.

> 4. Healscourge provides Vampiric Presense to compensate a bit for spotter. And with healscourges, there's no time spent on ressing as they pull downed people out of danger zone and essentially aoe auto-res them with a couple key presses. Not that it'd be easy to get downed with those barriers. And dat sweet epicleave ^^

 

None of those replace spotter.

 

Spotter is crit chance, nothing you've listed comes close to it.

 

PPD is good only in condition heavy groups, you still want spotter to maximize crit->condi procs

AP is good only in Power Heavy groups, you'd still want spotter to maximize crit chance so you make use of the ferocity

Vamp is just poor. It's ICD makes it largely worthless, even with it's recent scaling changes it's still weaker than every other aura.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > > ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

>

> This.

>

> The other top played MMOs, WoW and FF, do not have class diversity issues nearly as problematic as GW2. In GW2, most of the vanilla specs are unusable for DPS (or really anything....there goes 1/3rd of your roster). Several elite specs are trash. An entire class is a joke (Necro). There is only 1 or 2 (pushing it there) viable healer or tank specs. DPS variation is pushing over 30%, that is far from just "min maxing". There are 3 mandatory classes/specs in a group of 10....

>

> This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

>

> When you see other games with many more specs being not just viable, but competitive, I just think GW2s balance team is small or something. I can't fathom what else is the issue.

>

 

What's the point of having *class* diversity if here's no *gameplay* one?

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Substatic.6958" said:

> This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

 

It’s a community issue as people are confusing viable with optimal. It’s nothing new as they’ve been doing that since the game launched. I remember certain classes and builds being excluded from dungeon runs simply because they were not meta.

 

This is simply an issue that players have created and imposed on themselves.

 

 

[Knox.8962]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> > Let's see.

> > 1. Healengi has PD available to replace spotter.

> > 2. FB ensures maximum quickness uptimes and shares dozens of blocks to defend against mechanics.

> > 3. Healrene can bring AP to replace spotter, as well as ensure full alacrity.

> > 4. Healscourge provides Vampiric Presense to compensate a bit for spotter. And with healscourges, there's no time spent on ressing as they pull downed people out of danger zone and essentially aoe auto-res them with a couple key presses. Not that it'd be easy to get downed with those barriers. And dat sweet epicleave ^^

>

> None of those replace spotter.

>

> Spotter is crit chance, nothing you've listed comes close to it.

>

> PPD is good only in condition heavy groups, you still want spotter to maximize crit->condi procs

> AP is good only in Power Heavy groups, you'd still want spotter to maximize crit chance so you make use of the ferocity

> Vamp is just poor. It's ICD makes it largely worthless, even with it's recent scaling changes it's still weaker than every other aura.

>

>

 

Ferocity is better point for point than power or precision for several power builds and very close for the others. At 1.5 points of ferocity per 1 precision it isn't even close.

 

Similarly 1 point of condi damage is drastically better than any other aura for condi builds. (Mesmer is a bit of an oddball because it has strong no-ICD crit procs that make precision almost as good as condi damage, but every other condi spec it isn't even close.)

 

Vamp on a healing scourge is worth about 1/4 of the other auras, but on a power reaper it isn't that far off.

 

Tldr:

AP > spotter for power

PD > spotter for condi

[Samnang.1879]

dont fix things that aren't broke

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > > > ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

> >

> > This.

> >

> > The other top played MMOs, WoW and FF, do not have class diversity issues nearly as problematic as GW2. In GW2, most of the vanilla specs are unusable for DPS (or really anything....there goes 1/3rd of your roster). Several elite specs are trash. An entire class is a joke (Necro). There is only 1 or 2 (pushing it there) viable healer or tank specs. DPS variation is pushing over 30%, that is far from just "min maxing". There are 3 mandatory classes/specs in a group of 10....

> >

> > This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

> >

> > When you see other games with many more specs being not just viable, but competitive, I just think GW2s balance team is small or something. I can't fathom what else is the issue.

> >

>

> What's the point of having *class* diversity if here's no *gameplay* one?

 

No idea what WoW gameplay looks like today, but I'd be surprised if there was no gameplay diversity between the classes. What I know is that Wildstar had highly diverse classes at better balance than GW2. And finally, how exactly would a flat number adjustment affect gameplay diversity?

[Adamsdjr.1350]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

> >

> >

>

> this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

 

Guild Wars 2 has MANY "old fashioned" RPG structures built into it. For example, it has stats. any game where stats effect the outcome of your effectiveness ( every RPG btw ), you're going to have a part of the population that are going to optimize those stats to get the most out of a class/build. If you're doing end game content, you sure as hell are expected to be optimized if you're running with a group that takes it seriously. If you want to play engineer in a raid environment but don't want to play holosmith dps, then don't play holosmith DPS, go find like-minded people who also don't want to run what is best (or even good), and enjoy wiping with your sub-optimal builds. No one is saying you can't play casually, or that you have to run certain stats or builds. If you want to down hard, endgame content, play what gives the group the best chance at beating it, if you don't, someone else will.

 

What AAA MMORPG has changed this formula? WoW certainly hasn't. WoW understood that a large portion of its playerbase don't raid hardcore. Most of them don't raid mythics even casually. They have a built in crutch for players who don't min/max or play their classes poorly, it's called scaling gear. So even if you're trash with bad stats, you can eventually kill a boss just by sheer force due to you and your group totally outgearing content. GW2 doesn't invalidate gear so that crutch isn't there for sub-optimal players. The solution is one that WoW figured out a long time ago. You have different scaling difficulties for the same raid, so people who don't want to play what is "meta" can still see the content and participate. This has the added benefit of letting potential raiders get used to some raid mechanics before going into harder difficulties, if they wanted to.

[Adamsdjr.1350]

Double posted oops

[Adamsdjr.1350]

dont fix things that aren't broke

[Adamsdjr.1350]

> @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > > ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

>

> This.

>

> The other top played MMOs, WoW and FF, do not have class diversity issues nearly as problematic as GW2. In GW2, most of the vanilla specs are unusable for DPS (or really anything....there goes 1/3rd of your roster). Several elite specs are trash. An entire class is a joke (Necro). There is only 1 or 2 (pushing it there) viable healer or tank specs. DPS variation is pushing over 30%, that is far from just "min maxing". There are 3 mandatory classes/specs in a group of 10....

>

> This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

>

> When you see other games with many more specs being not just viable, but competitive, I just think GW2s balance team is small or something. I can't fathom what else is the issue.

>

 

Have you played WoW? Legion had a huge imbalance of class diversity. I raided mythics up until the last tier. I was one of the top 10 hunters in the world for the first couple tiers.

 

Survival hunter had a representation of about ~300 people in the highest difficulty tier (mythic). Three Hundred. Affliction warlock, balance druid, arms warrior, sub/assass rogue (for second half of legion) were the top specs and by a noticeable margin. Guardian Druid was the best tank in legion, for the entire expansion. Could you run a Paladin tank? Sure, if that toon outgeared the content or had some gimmick it could use to cheese a mechanic.

 

Something to take note of is that GW2 doesn't invalidate armor like FF and WoW. Having armor that scales with content means that I can eventually amass enough armor to make up for my class' lack of DPS potential or personal skill, on a fight. I personally love that GW2 doesn't invalidate armor, but if a large enough portion of casual raiders, which i imagine aren't that many in a game like this, want to see content that bad, the solution is to simply make scaling difficulties of the same encounter.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

>

> It’s a community issue as people are confusing viable with optimal. It’s nothing new as they’ve been doing that since the game launched. I remember certain classes and builds being excluded from dungeon runs simply because they were not meta.

>

> This is simply an issue that players have created and imposed on themselves.

>

>

 

Spot on ... I've witnessed these arguments since day 1 ... it's a people problem. My group can complete raid content just fine with whatever classes we want ... DESPITE the fact there are optimal comps to do it. We aren't some exception; if people stopped with the selfish idea that people should play how others tell them, they could do what we do too.

 

Meta pushing is strong in this game for some reason. I can only speculate it's because so few people care to think for themselves about how to play an MMO and solve the problems in them anymore.

[Substatic.6958]

"Daredevil Condition is only good on a select few bosses. Daredevil Power and Deadeye Power are useless on everything."

 

Fun video game.

[Substatic.6958]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > > This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

> >

> > It’s a community issue as people are confusing viable with optimal. It’s nothing new as they’ve been doing that since the game launched. I remember certain classes and builds being excluded from dungeon runs simply because they were not meta.

> >

> > This is simply an issue that players have created and imposed on themselves.

> >

> >

>

> Spot on ... I've witnessed these arguments since day 1 ... it's a people problem. My group can complete raid content just fine with whatever classes we want ... DESPITE the fact there are optimal comps to do it. We aren't some exception; if people stopped with the selfish idea that people should play how others tell them, they could do what we do too.

>

> Meta pushing is strong in this game for some reason. I can only speculate it's because so few people care to think for themselves about how to play an MMO and solve the problems in them anymore.

 

I understand, I'm just pointing out the fact that GW2's dps range and utility range (to a significantly greater degree) isn't remotely on par with the other big 2 MMOs. Yes it is also partially the community, the content is easy enough that a crappy spec will still result in PVE clears. I was clearly wrong and jumped the gun by saying otherwise. But lets not act like GW2 doesn't have severe balance problems which help feed into this, especially relatively when compared to WoW or something.

 

It has less class and spec diversity, objectively. By far. And doing 20-30% less damage is beyond just not being "min maxed" (and that's not even counting the vanilla specs SC doesn't even bother to bench due to being even worse). Same goes for the extremely limited and near mandatory utility spots.

 

 

[Substatic.6958]

> @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"Adamsdjr.1350" said:

> > > > ANY endgame content is going to require you to min/max to get the best chance at beating hard content. This is true in raids, high end fractrals, and organized wvw. Some things are just going to work better for how the game is now, those circumstances or classes will change over time and something else will become better. If you don't want to play what is "best", then find a group of people that don't mind you playing condi engi in a raid environment, or soulbeast in an organized zerg, or LB warrior in fractals.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > this really is an old fashioned form of thinking that derived from raiding 10-15 years ago. As the average age of the player base has risen so has tastes. Mmorpg are not just about min/maxing, its about casual pleasure and competitiveness. WVW,SPVP,Open world PVP, fractals/Dungeons none of these need the absolute optimal builds, and the design intention is actually build diversity. Raiding in its current format bucks this trend, but it has changed in all the other AAA mmorpg, GW2 is just a bit behind the times - possible because of the experience of the Anet raid devs, and the type of player it attracts.

> >

> > This.

> >

> > The other top played MMOs, WoW and FF, do not have class diversity issues nearly as problematic as GW2. In GW2, most of the vanilla specs are unusable for DPS (or really anything....there goes 1/3rd of your roster). Several elite specs are trash. An entire class is a joke (Necro). There is only 1 or 2 (pushing it there) viable healer or tank specs. DPS variation is pushing over 30%, that is far from just "min maxing". There are 3 mandatory classes/specs in a group of 10....

> >

> > This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

> >

> > When you see other games with many more specs being not just viable, but competitive, I just think GW2s balance team is small or something. I can't fathom what else is the issue.

> >

>

> Have you played WoW? Legion had a huge imbalance of class diversity. I raided mythics up until the last tier. I was one of the top 10 hunters in the world for the first couple tiers.

>

> Survival hunter had a representation of about ~300 people in the highest difficulty tier (mythic). Three Hundred. Affliction warlock, balance druid, arms warrior, sub/assass rogue (for second half of legion) were the top specs and by a noticeable margin. Guardian Druid was the best tank in legion, for the entire expansion. Could you run a Paladin tank? Sure, if that toon outgeared the content or had some gimmick it could use to cheese a mechanic.

>

> Something to take note of is that GW2 doesn't invalidate armor like FF and WoW. Having armor that scales with content means that I can eventually amass enough armor to make up for my class' lack of DPS potential or personal skill, on a fight. I personally love that GW2 doesn't invalidate armor, but if a large enough portion of casual raiders, which i imagine aren't that many in a game like this, want to see content that bad, the solution is to simply make scaling difficulties of the same encounter.

 

Yes. I play mythic raids currently.

 

Spec representation variance is due to other specs in said class simply being better or a spec just not being fun. Not because they aren't competitive. They are all within 5-10% dps of each other. All 28 dps specs. That's a lot more diversity than GW2. As well as multiple healing and tank roles.

 

This is extremely different from GW2 which has much much less class diversity for all roles.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > > > This isn't a community issue. WoW and FF have even more elitists communities (as they have much harder and numerous PVE content.) It's a game design (numbers and hand full of required OP buffs) issue.

> > >

> > > It’s a community issue as people are confusing viable with optimal. It’s nothing new as they’ve been doing that since the game launched. I remember certain classes and builds being excluded from dungeon runs simply because they were not meta.

> > >

> > > This is simply an issue that players have created and imposed on themselves.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Spot on ... I've witnessed these arguments since day 1 ... it's a people problem. My group can complete raid content just fine with whatever classes we want ... DESPITE the fact there are optimal comps to do it. We aren't some exception; if people stopped with the selfish idea that people should play how others tell them, they could do what we do too.

> >

> > Meta pushing is strong in this game for some reason. I can only speculate it's because so few people care to think for themselves about how to play an MMO and solve the problems in them anymore.

>

> I understand, I'm just pointing out the fact that GW2's dps range and utility range (to a significantly greater degree) isn't remotely on par with the other big 2 MMOs.

 

That's correct, it isn't but that's not resulting in a lack of diversity. We don't lack diversity ... Almost any comp can complete the content. We lack a wide range of optimal comps ... and it's arguable that it's necessary in the first place.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Substatic.6958" said:

> Yes. I play mythic raids currently.

>

> Spec representation variance is due to other specs in said class simply being better or a spec just not being fun. Not because they aren't competitive. They are all within 5-10% dps of each other. All 28 dps specs. That's a lot more diversity than GW2. As well as multiple healing and tank roles.

>

> This is extremely different from GW2 which has much much less class diversity for all roles.

 

So how do you enjoy your dps being entirely proc reliant ?

Cause if it's between what we have now and the 1 button wonder that wow has become i'd rather not transition to that new system.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Substatic.6958" said:

> > Yes. I play mythic raids currently.

> >

> > Spec representation variance is due to other specs in said class simply being better or a spec just not being fun. Not because they aren't competitive. They are all within 5-10% dps of each other. All 28 dps specs. That's a lot more diversity than GW2. As well as multiple healing and tank roles.

> >

> > This is extremely different from GW2 which has much much less class diversity for all roles.

>

> So how do you enjoy your dps being entirely proc reliant ?

> Cause if it's between what we have now and the 1 button wonder that wow has become i'd rather not transition to that new system.

 

Yup ... when all gameplay between classes breaks down to being the same, then people label it 'diversity', because everything is different ... in name only.

[Radina.6057]

Since the actually needed DPS for a boss is just a tiny amount of what every DPS can bring to the table this discussion is nothing but a "Meta hate" thread. You do not have to bring Eles to every fight. Just find a group that gives you the freedom you need to have fun. We do have Chronos and Druids as we have a BS that really like their spots and we do not have a rule of thumb or law which tells the DPS classes what they should play at which boss and we still beat the old wings in less than two hours and do the new one on another day.

 

All that nitpicking classes is nothing but a pile of crap for the guys that want to run a 1% Group. A Raidgroup that runs everything in the least amount of time possible. For everyone else even thinking about that certain classes have no place in raids are people who never took a look at the enrage timer of a boss.