Zalavaaris.5329 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > And they really should invest into that. How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenom.9457 Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > I honestly think that if you want an exclusive item that is exclusive to one game mode you have two choices. Accept you dont like the mode or are incapable of completing it and not get the reward or you figure it out and go get the reward. I did not raid when the armor came out. I did not do wvw either. The only time I'd go into wvw was for a gift of battle. I really really wanted the medium legendary set so you know what I did? I went and got it because we all have the opportunity to do that. When warbringer came out I was rank 22. I went and did it and am over 350 and have my back piece. You want it? Go get it! > > > > Edit: I'm not trying to be a toxic elitist or anything. It isn't about me being better than you. It's about you being better than you think you can be. Well I'm here to tell you that you can do it and I have faith in you! You got this! Go getchu some armor sets! > > > Exactly my sentiments. I personally don’t do Fractals because Raiding means I’ve slotted WvW stat infusions in my gear so I cannot get any AR. Or rather, I could probably get AR infusions with stats but I don’t want to grind for that. This of course locks me out of a lot of gear (such as the Legendary backpack). > > But you’re not seeing me creating threads about non-Fractal alternatives to Fractal-exclusive gear, do you? No, I don’t want to do that content and as a result I’ve come to terms with not getting the rewards. Simple as that. Not exactly. You don't need to ask for non-fractal exclusive legendaries, because there ARE other backpacks! If there were armor sets with actual new skins in other game modes like backpacks I wouldn't complain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalavaaris.5329 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Fenom.9457" said: > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > I honestly think that if you want an exclusive item that is exclusive to one game mode you have two choices. Accept you dont like the mode or are incapable of completing it and not get the reward or you figure it out and go get the reward. I did not raid when the armor came out. I did not do wvw either. The only time I'd go into wvw was for a gift of battle. I really really wanted the medium legendary set so you know what I did? I went and got it because we all have the opportunity to do that. When warbringer came out I was rank 22. I went and did it and am over 350 and have my back piece. You want it? Go get it! > > > > > > Edit: I'm not trying to be a toxic elitist or anything. It isn't about me being better than you. It's about you being better than you think you can be. Well I'm here to tell you that you can do it and I have faith in you! You got this! Go getchu some armor sets! > > > > > > Exactly my sentiments. I personally don’t do Fractals because Raiding means I’ve slotted WvW stat infusions in my gear so I cannot get any AR. Or rather, I could probably get AR infusions with stats but I don’t want to grind for that. This of course locks me out of a lot of gear (such as the Legendary backpack). > > > > But you’re not seeing me creating threads about non-Fractal alternatives to Fractal-exclusive gear, do you? No, I don’t want to do that content and as a result I’ve come to terms with not getting the rewards. Simple as that. > > > > Not exactly. You don't need to ask for non-fractal exclusive legendaries, because there ARE other backpacks! If there were armor sets with actual new skins in other game modes like backpacks I wouldn't complain What other game mode offers weapons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. Something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. So no, you can't get it just by doing OW PvE. In fact you also have to do dungeons, and if you chose to do the Precursor crafting, Fractals. Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Yes, the Raiders will be salty. But that is a consequence I'm willing to accept. =b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalavaaris.5329 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > Nevermore is a HoT weapon, so it's journey is in HoT. However, something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? It isn't a straw man. This entire post is because an item someone wants is locked behind content they don't do. If you don't do any wvw you won't get warbringer. If you don't do open world pve or fractals you won't get nevermore. If you don't have a 2k rank in wvw you can't have the shiny skin legendary armor. If you don't raid you won't get the raid legendary set. Just because someone isn't happy doesn't change the fact that they need to go out and earn rewards in the content they are designed for if they want them. If I can do it you can. Edit: and one more thing. Nevermore also requires gift of battle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > > > Nevermore is a HoT weapon, so it's journey is in HoT. However, something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. > > > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? > > It isn't a straw man. This entire post is because an item someone wants is locked behind content they don't do. If you don't do any wvw you won't get warbringer. If you don't do open world pve or fractals you won't get nevermore. If you don't have a 2k rank in wvw you can't have the shiny skin legendary armor. If you don't raid you won't get the raid legendary set. Just because someone isn't happy doesn't change the fact that they need to go out and earn rewards in the content they are designed for if they want them. If I can do it you can. > > Edit: and one more thing. Nevermore also requires gift of battle **Nevermore** also requires: * Fractals * Jump Puzzles * HoT Maps * Core Maps Evony (legendary) Armor also requires Fractals, Open World, Jump Puzzles, and a slew of other content the raiders swear they hate. So, all the people that say they don't want to do Fractals, and like raids, also can't get the Legendary Armor, somehow, I don't think that stopped them. But none of that changes my _main point_ which you have tried to defect with redherrings and strawmen. So I'll say this again: What makes **Legendary Weapons** done **Right** is that **each expansion has their own set**. Understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > @"Fenom.9457" said: > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > I honestly think that if you want an exclusive item that is exclusive to one game mode you have two choices. Accept you dont like the mode or are incapable of completing it and not get the reward or you figure it out and go get the reward. I did not raid when the armor came out. I did not do wvw either. The only time I'd go into wvw was for a gift of battle. I really really wanted the medium legendary set so you know what I did? I went and got it because we all have the opportunity to do that. When warbringer came out I was rank 22. I went and did it and am over 350 and have my back piece. You want it? Go get it! > > > > > > > > Edit: I'm not trying to be a toxic elitist or anything. It isn't about me being better than you. It's about you being better than you think you can be. Well I'm here to tell you that you can do it and I have faith in you! You got this! Go getchu some armor sets! > > > > > > > > > Exactly my sentiments. I personally don’t do Fractals because Raiding means I’ve slotted WvW stat infusions in my gear so I cannot get any AR. Or rather, I could probably get AR infusions with stats but I don’t want to grind for that. This of course locks me out of a lot of gear (such as the Legendary backpack). > > > > > > But you’re not seeing me creating threads about non-Fractal alternatives to Fractal-exclusive gear, do you? No, I don’t want to do that content and as a result I’ve come to terms with not getting the rewards. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > Not exactly. You don't need to ask for non-fractal exclusive legendaries, because there ARE other backpacks! If there were armor sets with actual new skins in other game modes like backpacks I wouldn't complain > > What other game mode offers weapons? HoT, PoF and Core, all offer Weapon Sets, **which is the point here**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > Something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. So no, you can't get it just by doing OW PvE. In fact you also have to do dungeons, and if you chose to do the Precursor crafting, Fractals. > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? You can get a gift of battle by playing OW PvE. It will take a long time. I would not consider the process to be a viable alternative, but it does exist. But it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > > > Something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. So no, you can't get it just by doing OW PvE. In fact you also have to do dungeons, and if you chose to do the Precursor crafting, Fractals. > > > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? > > You can get a gift of battle by playing OW PvE. > > It will take a long time. I would not consider the process to be a viable alternative, but it does exist. > > But it can be done. Wow, good to know. Still does not change my main point that Legendary Weapons are done well in GW2, in that Each Expansion has their own Set, and that idea should be expanded to Armor, and Back items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > > > > > Something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. So no, you can't get it just by doing OW PvE. In fact you also have to do dungeons, and if you chose to do the Precursor crafting, Fractals. > > > > > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? > > > > You can get a gift of battle by playing OW PvE. > > > > It will take a long time. I would not consider the process to be a viable alternative, but it does exist. > > > > But it can be done. > > Wow, good to know. > > Still does not change my main point that Legendary Weapons are done well in GW2, in that Each Expansion has their own Set, and that idea should be expanded to Armor, and Back items. I agree with your suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalavaaris.5329 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > > > > > Nevermore is a HoT weapon, so it's journey is in HoT. However, something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. > > > > > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? > > > > It isn't a straw man. This entire post is because an item someone wants is locked behind content they don't do. If you don't do any wvw you won't get warbringer. If you don't do open world pve or fractals you won't get nevermore. If you don't have a 2k rank in wvw you can't have the shiny skin legendary armor. If you don't raid you won't get the raid legendary set. Just because someone isn't happy doesn't change the fact that they need to go out and earn rewards in the content they are designed for if they want them. If I can do it you can. > > > > Edit: and one more thing. Nevermore also requires gift of battle > > **Nevermore** also requires: > * Fractals > * Jump Puzzles > * HoT Maps > * Core Maps > > Evony (legendary) Armor also requires Fractals, Open World, Jump Puzzles, and a slew of other content the raiders swear they hate. So, all the people that say they don't want to do Fractals, and like raids, also can't get the Legendary Armor, somehow, I don't think that stopped them. > > But none of that changes my _main point_ which you have tried to defect with redherrings and strawmen. > > So I'll say this again: > > What makes **Legendary Weapons** done **Right** is that **each expansion has their own set**. > > Understand? I understand you think they should come in expansion sets but I don't see how that relates to requiring raid content. Not trying to be contrary or deflect, I just don't know how what you're saying relates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenom.9457 Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > @"Fenom.9457" said: > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > I honestly think that if you want an exclusive item that is exclusive to one game mode you have two choices. Accept you dont like the mode or are incapable of completing it and not get the reward or you figure it out and go get the reward. I did not raid when the armor came out. I did not do wvw either. The only time I'd go into wvw was for a gift of battle. I really really wanted the medium legendary set so you know what I did? I went and got it because we all have the opportunity to do that. When warbringer came out I was rank 22. I went and did it and am over 350 and have my back piece. You want it? Go get it! > > > > > > > > Edit: I'm not trying to be a toxic elitist or anything. It isn't about me being better than you. It's about you being better than you think you can be. Well I'm here to tell you that you can do it and I have faith in you! You got this! Go getchu some armor sets! > > > > > > > > > Exactly my sentiments. I personally don’t do Fractals because Raiding means I’ve slotted WvW stat infusions in my gear so I cannot get any AR. Or rather, I could probably get AR infusions with stats but I don’t want to grind for that. This of course locks me out of a lot of gear (such as the Legendary backpack). > > > > > > But you’re not seeing me creating threads about non-Fractal alternatives to Fractal-exclusive gear, do you? No, I don’t want to do that content and as a result I’ve come to terms with not getting the rewards. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > Not exactly. You don't need to ask for non-fractal exclusive legendaries, because there ARE other backpacks! If there were armor sets with actual new skins in other game modes like backpacks I wouldn't complain > > What other game mode offers weapons? Uh I was talking about backpacks but ok. Well, you can earn quite a bit of a legendary from any game mode (both through various currencies or just earning gold and buying stuff). Also the gen 1 can be directly bought. But it would be better if it was entirely possible to get them from any game mode, yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > > > > > Nevermore is a HoT weapon, so it's journey is in HoT. However, something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. > > > > > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? > > > > It isn't a straw man. This entire post is because an item someone wants is locked behind content they don't do. If you don't do any wvw you won't get warbringer. If you don't do open world pve or fractals you won't get nevermore. If you don't have a 2k rank in wvw you can't have the shiny skin legendary armor. If you don't raid you won't get the raid legendary set. Just because someone isn't happy doesn't change the fact that they need to go out and earn rewards in the content they are designed for if they want them. If I can do it you can. > > > > Edit: and one more thing. Nevermore also requires gift of battle > > **Nevermore** also requires: > * Fractals > * Jump Puzzles > * HoT Maps > * Core Maps > > Evony (legendary) Armor also requires Fractals, Open World, Jump Puzzles, and a slew of other content the raiders swear they hate. So, all the people that say they don't want to do Fractals, and like raids, also can't get the Legendary Armor, somehow, I don't think that stopped them. > > But none of that changes my _main point_ which you have tried to defect with redherrings and strawmen. > > So I'll say this again: > > What makes **Legendary Weapons** done **Right** is that **each expansion has their own set**. > > Understand? Pof dont have their own set, they added a way for pof owners to get some of the hot gen 2 legendary weapons since it took them such a long time to release them. If hot gen2 would have been finished pof wouldent have any access to it. 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STIHL.2489 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > > > > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > > > > > > > Nevermore is a HoT weapon, so it's journey is in HoT. However, something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. > > > > > > > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? > > > > > > It isn't a straw man. This entire post is because an item someone wants is locked behind content they don't do. If you don't do any wvw you won't get warbringer. If you don't do open world pve or fractals you won't get nevermore. If you don't have a 2k rank in wvw you can't have the shiny skin legendary armor. If you don't raid you won't get the raid legendary set. Just because someone isn't happy doesn't change the fact that they need to go out and earn rewards in the content they are designed for if they want them. If I can do it you can. > > > > > > Edit: and one more thing. Nevermore also requires gift of battle > > > > **Nevermore** also requires: > > * Fractals > > * Jump Puzzles > > * HoT Maps > > * Core Maps > > > > Evony (legendary) Armor also requires Fractals, Open World, Jump Puzzles, and a slew of other content the raiders swear they hate. So, all the people that say they don't want to do Fractals, and like raids, also can't get the Legendary Armor, somehow, I don't think that stopped them. > > > > But none of that changes my _main point_ which you have tried to defect with redherrings and strawmen. > > > > So I'll say this again: > > > > What makes **Legendary Weapons** done **Right** is that **each expansion has their own set**. > > > > Understand? > > I understand you think they should come in expansion sets but I don't see how that relates to requiring raid content. Not trying to be contrary or deflect, I just don't know how what you're saying relates. Only HoT has Raids. As such, **Core** Legendary Armor Journey would need to be some other kind of path and need some other kind of content to be it's pain in the ass, perhaps, needing to do all the dungeons for example, or they could just fall back to their old stand by with fractals again, and maybe design an armor set that matches the back item. And AFAIK, **PoF** also does not have Raids, so that too would be a Journey that would not require Raids as well. and.. I suppose.. having PoF paths to HoT Legendary Weapons is a start (and yah, their "Indefinite hold on HoT Legendary Weapons was a real win situation)... but really.. they need to get on their game better at this point, it's really falling behind where it should be at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > > > > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > > > > > > > Nevermore is a HoT weapon, so it's journey is in HoT. However, something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. > > > > > > > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? > > > > > > It isn't a straw man. This entire post is because an item someone wants is locked behind content they don't do. If you don't do any wvw you won't get warbringer. If you don't do open world pve or fractals you won't get nevermore. If you don't have a 2k rank in wvw you can't have the shiny skin legendary armor. If you don't raid you won't get the raid legendary set. Just because someone isn't happy doesn't change the fact that they need to go out and earn rewards in the content they are designed for if they want them. If I can do it you can. > > > > > > Edit: and one more thing. Nevermore also requires gift of battle > > > > **Nevermore** also requires: > > * Fractals > > * Jump Puzzles > > * HoT Maps > > * Core Maps > > > > Evony (legendary) Armor also requires Fractals, Open World, Jump Puzzles, and a slew of other content the raiders swear they hate. So, all the people that say they don't want to do Fractals, and like raids, also can't get the Legendary Armor, somehow, I don't think that stopped them. > > > > But none of that changes my _main point_ which you have tried to defect with redherrings and strawmen. > > > > So I'll say this again: > > > > What makes **Legendary Weapons** done **Right** is that **each expansion has their own set**. > > > > Understand? > > Pof dont have their own set, they added a way for pof owners to get some of the hot gen 2 legendary weapons since it took them such a long time to release them. > If hot gen2 would have been finished pof wouldent have any access to it. I honestly am not sure why their development is falling behind so badly, they are literally years behind where they should be at this point, and that too seemed to start with an early release of HoT with a lot of "promises" that.. to be honest.. I am not even sure how many of them they fulfilled. 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flog.3485 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > I think what people miss is that the Legendary Armor is more then just a skin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See I am all for exclusive items in content, in fact, I love the idea of Dungeon Armor **Skins**, Fractal Weapon **Skins**, even SAB tribulation mode exclusive **skins** (Which I will never get) and the like, but the key word here is **Skins** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See a rare or hard to obtain Skin (like a title) is a sign of Prestige, something to show off, it makes your Items just a little cooler then other items, without the actual need to put in a gear grind. When it is a _Tier of Gear_, that is when things become an issue and now it is a gear grind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, Legendary Weapons are the only Legendary System I think that is done Right. G1 requires WvW and various kinds of PvE. G2 paths are their own world exploring saga, which is really great. HoT has it's own sets, PoF has their own sets (incomplete right now, but there at least) and that is really how things should be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each Expansion should contain their own Legendary Sets (Weapons, Armor, Back) with skins indicative to that Expansion or Game Mode. Not all of them need to be this transforming show (which I don't care for anyway), but they should at the very least be their own unique style. Like the WvW Legendary Armor, should match to Warbringer (the back item), which would designate it as that "Legendary Set" just like the sPvP Armor should match The Ascension, to denote it's game mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that the HoT Raid Armor looks nothing like Ad Infinitum, kinda begs for HoT to have it's own back item, to match it's armor set (maybe one that also Transforms) Also, that sets the stage for Core to have it's own set that matches Ad Infinitum at least somewhat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, right now, Legendary Armor and Back look like cobbled together "Armor Sets" .. and.. Umm.. eww. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I believe that a large part of GW2, is about design and accessibility, I am fully against the PvE Legendary Back item being restricted to only Fractals, it's limiting and poor development to say the least, they should have put in a Legendary Back item into HoT before they put in the Armor (and that is coming from someone that likes Fractals and HATES HoT) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Equally so, as they try to expand the game more and more, they ultimately give less and less to do. I hate to say it, but, unless you planed to make a Legendary in HoT, after the story and unlocking Endless Gliding, HoT has no attraction to it, the Metas are only worth doing if there is something more holding you there, otherwise there are more profitable and easier money and mat grinds in the game. Same with PoF, after the Story and Mounts, there is nothing really worthwhile to do there unless there is a plan to make a Legendary Item. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why Putting Legendary Journeys into the Expansions gives them longevity, it gives players a long term reason to continue to do the content, or return to the content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Metas, Events, and Story are all very short lived, if there is no long term goal also attached to them. Legendary Items where the Long Term goals in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And they really should invest into that. > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you earn a legendary weapon? Can you earn one through raids or WvW or SPVP? What is the process to getting Nevermore? See, open world PVE has it's own exclusive content. You cannot get a legendary weapon (with the exception of credit card for classic legendaries) by any other means. The same goes for the pve raid armor, the wvw back piece, the fractal back piece, the WvW/PVP armor, etc. Every mode has it's own exclusives and if you want all of them then you need to do all of the content required. > > > > > > > > > > Nevermore is a HoT weapon, so it's journey is in HoT. However, something like Twilight, yes, that requires a Gift of Battle, that is from WvW. > > > > > > > > > > Can you please stop the strawman arguments now? > > > > > > > > It isn't a straw man. This entire post is because an item someone wants is locked behind content they don't do. If you don't do any wvw you won't get warbringer. If you don't do open world pve or fractals you won't get nevermore. If you don't have a 2k rank in wvw you can't have the shiny skin legendary armor. If you don't raid you won't get the raid legendary set. Just because someone isn't happy doesn't change the fact that they need to go out and earn rewards in the content they are designed for if they want them. If I can do it you can. > > > > > > > > Edit: and one more thing. Nevermore also requires gift of battle > > > > > > **Nevermore** also requires: > > > * Fractals > > > * Jump Puzzles > > > * HoT Maps > > > * Core Maps > > > > > > Evony (legendary) Armor also requires Fractals, Open World, Jump Puzzles, and a slew of other content the raiders swear they hate. So, all the people that say they don't want to do Fractals, and like raids, also can't get the Legendary Armor, somehow, I don't think that stopped them. > > > > > > But none of that changes my _main point_ which you have tried to defect with redherrings and strawmen. > > > > > > So I'll say this again: > > > > > > What makes **Legendary Weapons** done **Right** is that **each expansion has their own set**. > > > > > > Understand? > > > > I understand you think they should come in expansion sets but I don't see how that relates to requiring raid content. Not trying to be contrary or deflect, I just don't know how what you're saying relates. > > Only HoT has Raids. > > As such, **Core** Legendary Armor Journey would need to be some other kind of path and need some other kind of content to be it's pain in the kitten, perhaps, needing to do all the dungeons for example, or they could just fall back to their old stand by with fractals again, and maybe design an armor set that matches the back item. > > And AFAIK, **PoF** also does not have Raids, so that too would be a Journey that would not require Raids as well. > > and.. I suppose.. having PoF paths to HoT Legendary Weapons is a start (and yah, their "Indefinite hold on HoT Legendary Weapons was a real win situation)... but really.. they need to get on their game better at this point, it's really falling behind where it should be at. How does your argument make any sense ? There is no core game to buy anymore. The only core game out there is now f2p and all the new players will likely buy both expansion or either one. You really think it is viable, business wise, to create a legendary armor for long term players that still haven’t purchased any expansion ? If anything HoT is core now because that is the expansion from which you will get the most value in terms of content and features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalavaaris.5329 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 I feel like we're kind of talking around in circles and I'm starting to lose track. My belief is that Envoy armor should continue to require raiding. It's a great challenge and a great goal for players that want to achieve something awesome. I worked really hard for mine and I wouldn't feel that great about it if they took the skins and tied them to all the dungeons as you mentioned. The good news is that it wont ever happen obviously because they still require raiding for the armor and they still require wvw for warbringer. I think arena net agree that it should not be easily obtainable (without raiding) or other would already be available. My original point stands. If you want a game modes reward go do the content. Think of how much progress you could be making in the time it takes to create endless forum posts asking for an easier path! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > **Random Thoughts, Not Necessarily Connected** > > +I guess ANet bit off more than they could chew when MoB said, "So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2." Turns out that those who "love" MMO's won't tolerate MMO's without certain features that others hate. > > Not really. They simply lost their direction and it is showing. > > If they had kept to some of their basic ideas, from the start like this for example: > > > We believe that gamers want to try new things, new experiences, and that they’ll reward the companies who can bring them something new. > > This is very true, so, when they opted to try and make more challenging content, they should have pushed a new direction with that. The largest mistake they made was just doing what everyone else is doing, and they already knew that supposed to be something they were trying not to do with this game. > > Right here. > > >Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun > > And, then they went ahead and did exactly that. > > I was not just a matter if they bit off more then they could chew, that was obvious when they focused on PvE and let WvW die a slow painful death and it was clear they didn't have the resources to really tend the game as a whole. > > The real issue was, they simply did not keep to their original design intent and thus did not challenge themselves to come up with a better solution to a generic complaint. I think those quotes are about the game as a whole. While its very much so not applying to specific parts of it, that doesnt mean they lost direction as a whole. What you need to look at is how much of an option are those parts of the game. And ofcourse, alot of that depends from player to player. One player finds himself in one direction better than another. Especially as there's nothing stopping from players themselves falling into that trap of grinding and sucking their lives away. There has been lots of those in GW2 in one shape or another since the beginning. I see adding more of those pitfalls merely moving away even further from those quotes you pulled out of context. Personally I voted for yes but other legendary skins, because cool skins are a no brainer really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > I feel like we're kind of talking around in circles and I'm starting to lose track. My belief is that Envoy armor should continue to require raiding. It's a great challenge and a great goal for players that want to achieve something awesome. I worked really hard for mine and I wouldn't feel that great about it if they took the skins and tied them to all the dungeons as you mentioned. The good news is that it wont ever happen obviously because they still require raiding for the armor and they still require wvw for warbringer. I think arena net agree that it should not be easily obtainable (without raiding) or other would already be available. My original point stands. If you want a game modes reward go do the content. Think of how much progress you could be making in the time it takes to create endless forum posts asking for an easier path! It's simply not that easy. The sad truth is that - due to the LI/KP-requirements - the ship has already sailed. For a new player, it's tremendously harder to get into raiding than for those people that did the content when it was released. There are even fairly enough people with 500+ LI that can't get into W5 due to the KP-mentality. It's even worse than in your typical gear-treadmill-MMORPGs a lot of people here complain about, because in these, it actually gets easier to get into older content as new content is being released. I mean, I've got some LI myself which I mostly earned by organizing training-runs myself. Thing is though, that's mostly restricted to weekends since I have a job and I study. If that speed keeps up, I'll be able to join LFG-squads in multiple months. That's actually quite an unfunny experience. So yeah, this game suffers from huge accessibility-problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalavaaris.5329 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > I feel like we're kind of talking around in circles and I'm starting to lose track. My belief is that Envoy armor should continue to require raiding. It's a great challenge and a great goal for players that want to achieve something awesome. I worked really hard for mine and I wouldn't feel that great about it if they took the skins and tied them to all the dungeons as you mentioned. The good news is that it wont ever happen obviously because they still require raiding for the armor and they still require wvw for warbringer. I think arena net agree that it should not be easily obtainable (without raiding) or other would already be available. My original point stands. If you want a game modes reward go do the content. Think of how much progress you could be making in the time it takes to create endless forum posts asking for an easier path! > > It's simply not that easy. > > The sad truth is that - due to the LI/KP-requirements - the ship has already sailed. For a new player, it's tremendously harder to get into raiding than for those people that did the content when it was released. There are even fairly enough people with 500+ LI that can't get into W5 due to the KP-mentality. It's even worse than in your typical gear-treadmill-MMORPGs a lot of people here complain about, because in these, it actually gets easier to get into older content as new content is being released. > > I mean, I've got some LI myself which I mostly earned by organizing training-runs myself. Thing is though, that's mostly restricted to weekends since I have a job and I study. If that speed keeps up, I'll be able to join LFG-squads in multiple months. That's actually quite an unfunny experience. So yeah, this game suffers from huge accessibility-problems. The thing is, you can't say the ship has sailed and that it's impossible for a new player. I did it! It wasn't when the content first came out. I started looking into raiding a couple months after the legendary armor was released! I saw people with it and I wanted it. I asked them how to get it and they told me. I also had work and a life and it took me a long time. It was more of a struggle for me than others due to my real life responsibilities. But it's too bad. It's a game. If you are risking losing your job or doing poorly in school maybe the reward isn't a possibility for you which is understandable. I've had times in my life where gaming in general wasn't on the table. It's tough luck but its life. If you really want the reward go and get it. Several times I had to form my own groups and raid lead just to get the kills I needed. Nothing is stopping people but themselves. You CAN do it, we all have faith in your ability if you put in the time and effort! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > I feel like we're kind of talking around in circles and I'm starting to lose track. My belief is that Envoy armor should continue to require raiding. It's a great challenge and a great goal for players that want to achieve something awesome. I worked really hard for mine and I wouldn't feel that great about it if they took the skins and tied them to all the dungeons as you mentioned. Well the good news for you, is no one wants remove Raids from Evony Armor, No one wants to take your armor **skin** so, no matter what, you can still strut around in your **raid armor** as you always have. _Nothing will change for you_ in that regard. What the request here, is for the _Other Expansions_ to have their _Own Legendary Sets_ (Armor, Back, Weapons), with their _own unique skins_. > The good news is that it wont ever happen obviously because they still require raiding for the armor and they still require wvw for warbringer. Think of this way. They don't require WvW for _The Ascension_ or _Ad Infinitum_. And that is what is going on here.. no one wants to take your armor or back item.. they want _their own_. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > The thing is, you can't say the ship has sailed and that it's impossible for a new player. I did it! It wasn't when the content first came out. I started looking into raiding a couple months after the legendary armor was released! I saw people with it and I wanted it. I asked them how to get it and they told me. I also had work and a life and it took me a long time. It was more of a struggle for me than others due to my real life responsibilities. But it's too bad. It's a game. If you are risking losing your job or doing poorly in school maybe the reward isn't a possibility for you which is understandable. I've had times in my life where gaming in general wasn't on the table. It's tough luck but its life. If you really want the reward go and get it. Several times I had to form my own groups and raid lead just to get the kills I needed. Nothing is stopping people but themselves. You CAN do it, we all have faith in your ability if you put in the time and effort! Hummm.. > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > **I worked really hard for mine** and I wouldn't feel that great about it if they took the skins and tied them to all the dungeons as you mentioned. I think this is the issue.. this here is a game.. not a job. If I wanted a second job.. I'd just go out and get a second job where I actually get paid.. or put in more OT at my current job. I play this game for fun and escapism, not to deal with assholes, not to take grief from some snot about my DPS, or get berated for my build, or need to try and play the "fit in" game with a bunch of elitist. I want to come home from work.. and play a game... and at the end of the day.. get some stupid pretty bauble.. At one Time.. GW2 provided that, and they really should go back to doing that, but, meh, if they don't.. to be honest. I does not hurt me.. Might hurt them.. but not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said: > > > I feel like we're kind of talking around in circles and I'm starting to lose track. My belief is that Envoy armor should continue to require raiding. It's a great challenge and a great goal for players that want to achieve something awesome. I worked really hard for mine and I wouldn't feel that great about it if they took the skins and tied them to all the dungeons as you mentioned. The good news is that it wont ever happen obviously because they still require raiding for the armor and they still require wvw for warbringer. I think arena net agree that it should not be easily obtainable (without raiding) or other would already be available. My original point stands. If you want a game modes reward go do the content. Think of how much progress you could be making in the time it takes to create endless forum posts asking for an easier path! > > > > It's simply not that easy. > > > > The sad truth is that - due to the LI/KP-requirements - the ship has already sailed. For a new player, it's tremendously harder to get into raiding than for those people that did the content when it was released. There are even fairly enough people with 500+ LI that can't get into W5 due to the KP-mentality. It's even worse than in your typical gear-treadmill-MMORPGs a lot of people here complain about, because in these, it actually gets easier to get into older content as new content is being released. > > > > I mean, I've got some LI myself which I mostly earned by organizing training-runs myself. Thing is though, that's mostly restricted to weekends since I have a job and I study. If that speed keeps up, I'll be able to join LFG-squads in multiple months. That's actually quite an unfunny experience. So yeah, this game suffers from huge accessibility-problems. > > The thing is, you can't say the ship has sailed and that it's impossible for a new player. I did it! It wasn't when the content first came out. I started looking into raiding a couple months after the legendary armor was released! I saw people with it and I wanted it. I asked them how to get it and they told me. I also had work and a life and it took me a long time. It was more of a struggle for me than others due to my real life responsibilities. But it's too bad. It's a game. If you are risking losing your job or doing poorly in school maybe the reward isn't a possibility for you which is understandable. I've had times in my life where gaming in general wasn't on the table. It's tough luck but its life. If you really want the reward go and get it. Several times I had to form my own groups and raid lead just to get the kills I needed. Nothing is stopping people but themselves. You CAN do it, we all have faith in your ability if you put in the time and effort! Huh? Of course I can say that the ship has sailed because it is like that. Nowadays, you even sometimes have ridiculous LI-requirements for training-runs or easy stuff like Escort. True, while it is not entirely impossible for a new player to get into raiding, the game is at least as unwelcoming as to not encourage people to do that kind of content. The game is basically designed in a way in which it's flowers are rather strangled than encouraged to bloom. The community isn't helpful either, especially due to the stupid game-as-a-job-mentality a lot of people have nowadays. I mean: Of course I also want the shinies from raids, but I first and foremost, I want to raid because of the general game-experience. Sometimes I have the feeling that people don't play for the experience anymore but rather for some sort of hollow progression-feeling. I also have the feeling that people actually don't really want to play MMORPGs anymore. Don't get me wrong, GW2 is a good game, but it makes a terrible job at being a MMORPG. A real MMORPG should be like that people get into the fun when they have the gear for it and basic knowledge of the encounter and their own class, which isn't all that difficult as we have tons of class- and raid-guides. Besides one or two special mechanics, you can break down raids into the typical MMORPG-scheme anyway like do damage and avoid fancy red circles and stuff. ...and it's not like you make your game more engaging if you hard-lock people out of engaging content, especially in the case of GW2 where the main-content - OW- and story-content - is pi**easy on a level that it sedates people. The current situation is like your typical real-life-job-searching-situation where every employer only wants people that are as young as possible but have decades of job-experience. Is that healthy? Of course it isn't. Of course the accessibility-situation in GW2 isn't healthy - not in the least and the game suffers heavily from it. Why do you think such a low percentage of people actually raid? Why do you think that raid-sellers can - compared to other games - bascially extort their customers? Do you think people would be that vocal about having a second PvE-option to get legendary armor if the content would be accessible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalavaaris.5329 Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 If you dont raid you will NEVER get the Envoy armor so whether you choose to write a long forum post or raid is up to you. Seems like everyone is a victim of the community instead of their own hero. Go and raid if you want the armor. TRUE talk... I have to ask a few questions to fully understand what you want. 1.) Is it the skin you want or the functionality or both? 2.) What do you feel is an appropriate open world task to warrant the armor? 3.) What is your ideal time frame for completing it? 4.) Are fractals included? 5.) Are dungeons included? 6.) Is it the Envoy raid skin you want or a unique skin? Help me understand your vision for what a pve armor set would be other than a gold grind. I should also provide more clarity from my end as well. I would be happy to see the legendary functionality be available for open world pve players. I would still like it to be expensive. And I think it should have it's own skin that looks decent but not quite as epic as the raid or wvw legendary armor to reflect the difference in difficult to obtain. But if you guys want legendary stat swapping on ascended gear I am all for that being available! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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