My predictions on how LWS4 will play out.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > I think the episode 3 will be the last for Joko, he will be finally finished, Ep 4,5 and 6 will be all about Kralkatorrik, and the 7th episode will be a summary with a cinematic in the end of of it.

> I feel like that would be a bit too soon, and a bit too quick, to end Joko.

>

> Kralkatorik on the other hand doesn't need as much time devoted to him since PoF already did most of the Kralkatorik plot stuff in it. All we really need at this point is for Taimi and the FMA brothers to make some device to beat him, and us to march on his lair and kill him.

 

I don't ignore the possiblity that this season will be all about Joko, but to me it's just keep repeating one scheme- Joko attacks, then shows up, sends some Awakened and disappears, and again Joko attacks, shows up, sends some Awakened and disappears.

 

I really hope there will be the culmination in the Core Tyria, because what we'd been doing since Daybreak was finding out about Joko's wicked plans on Scarab Plague and unleashing it on Tyria, and we didn't get anything from Tyria. (Only Current Event), What I mean is that it's high time to move to the land we were defending since we left the Dream, killed the Earth Elemental, the Inquest Golem, the Wurm and killed the wicked Ghost.

 

What we know about Joko after he returned from the Mists:

1) He's seeking revenge on the Commander

2) He uses Asura all the time

3) He attacks Asura's bases

 

He attacked Rata Primus, the base in Fahranur. There are 3 Ratas left, I doubt we will return to Rata Arcanum (especially because it's S3 location), so it leaves Rata Sum and Rata Novus, while Rata Sum leads to Rata Novus and Rata Novus to the Rings of Fire.

 

If he gets Rata Sum, as he got Rata Primus (we could see how huge it was), then we're doomed.

 

He is very interested in Asura's technology, it's very likely he will continue going this trail. And if he really wants to hurt Tyria, then he must take Rata Sum, because it's technology connects with the whole Tyria.

 

He must strike now and I think it's time to battle.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> I really hope there will be the culmination in the Core Tyria, because what we'd been doing since Daybreak was finding out about Joko's wicked plans on Scarab Plague and unleashing it on Tyria, and we didn't get anything from Tyria. (Only Current Event), What I mean is that it's high time to move to the land we were defending since we left the Dream, killed the Earth Elemental, the Inquest Golem, the Wurm and killed the wicked Ghost.

Going to Tyria to "defend" it would result in us doing the worst possible thing we could attempt to do to defend it, which is, leaving Elona where Joko is now, and where he is based, and where all of his armies are, and thus, where we could do the most damage.

 

Both Rytlok and Canach specifically reference this at the end of episode 1

>Rytlock Brimstone: Joko's got no idea what he's starting.

>Rytlock Brimstone: Conquering humans is one thing. But there's a world of hurt awaiting him in Ascalon.

>Canach: We have to focus on stopping his attack from here in Elona.

>Rytlock Brimstone: I'll get in rough with Logan. Tell him to mobilize the Pact. Let him know we're down here doing our part.

Logan and the Pact can deal with what little forces Joko has been able to send to Tyria, we need to stay in Elona to cut the invasion off at its source by taking down Joko here.

 

>2) He uses Asura all the time

He only used Asura twice, both times to get a specific kind of gates to use to invade Tyira, a type of gates which aren't at Rata Sum. He has no reason to make an attack against Rata Sum, at all, and he doesn't particularly care about Asuran technology outside of the special gates either.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> And since he got freed, he's Awakened at least one of the individuals in question, if not more.

We have no idea who awakened Iberu.

>So who were all those Champion Mordant Crescent Hierarchs and Intimidators that we fight throughout Palawadan then?

Not in Heretics Arena, the specific subsection you mentioned. Now your just blatantly trying to move goalposts.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > I really hope there will be the culmination in the Core Tyria, because what we'd been doing since Daybreak was finding out about Joko's wicked plans on Scarab Plague and unleashing it on Tyria, and we didn't get anything from Tyria. (Only Current Event), What I mean is that it's high time to move to the land we were defending since we left the Dream, killed the Earth Elemental, the Inquest Golem, the Wurm and killed the wicked Ghost.

> Going to Tyria to "defend" it would result in us doing the worst possible thing we could attempt to do to defend it, which is, leaving Elona where Joko is now, and where he is based, and where all of his armies are, and thus, where we could do the most damage.

 

Joko is in Elona? Maybe yes, maybe not.

 

If I remember correctly Joko _entered the portal_ but where was it connected to? We don't know.

 

That's why I guess maybe somewhere around Rata Sum? Another Inquest base?

 

The portal he entered was probably connected to another Inquest's base. I mean Fahranur was connected to Rata Primus, so perhaps Rata Primus one was connected to another base?

 

I predict it is connected to Maguuma Jungle, why?

 

1) Thaumanova Reactor- Inquest related

2) Dry Top- Inquest related

3) Rata Novus- Inquest related

4) Rata Sum- Asura/Inquest related

 

On this spot north from Rata Sum is a weird rectangle, kind of weird: https://imgur.com/a/tL2eQ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> The portal he entered was probably connected to another Inquest's base. I mean Fahranur was connected to Rata Primus, so perhaps Rata Primus one was connected to another base?

You seem to forget that Joko had made his own portal, and didn't walk into one of the Inquest's portals. He didn't even use an Inquest gate either.

 

Given the leaks that show a 80 sign above Gandara, it is likely he went there to stage his army for some larger attack, given that Gandara is the largest fortress in Elona.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > And since he got freed, he's Awakened at least one of the individuals in question, if not more.

> We have no idea who awakened Iberu.

> >So who were all those Champion Mordant Crescent Hierarchs and Intimidators that we fight throughout Palawadan then?

> Not in Heretics Arena, the specific subsection you mentioned. Now your just blatantly trying to move goalposts.

 

Does it matter who Awakened Iberu? The point is that he was Awakened. Meaning there are people who could Awaken any of those so-called "important" people that we killed.

 

And let's be honest, if there's military in Building A, and Buildings B, C, and D get attacked, the military in Building A aren't going to just sit there twiddling their thumbs the entire time. I'm not moving goalposts. It's just silly to think that people sit around when a city is under attack.

 

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> I predict it is connected to Maguuma Jungle, why?

>

> 1) Thaumanova Reactor- Inquest related

> 2) Dry Top- Inquest related

> 3) Rata Novus- Inquest related

> 4) Rata Sum- Asura/Inquest related

>

> On this spot north from Rata Sum is a weird rectangle, kind of weird: https://imgur.com/a/tL2eQ

 

Novus isn't Inquest related. And that rectangle doesn't really seem much more than part of the painterly style of the world map. Seems far too ambiguous to be yet another giant cube.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > The portal he entered was probably connected to another Inquest's base. I mean Fahranur was connected to Rata Primus, so perhaps Rata Primus one was connected to another base?

> You seem to forget that Joko had made his own portal, and didn't walk into one of the Inquest's portals. He didn't even use an Inquest gate either.

>

> Given the leaks that show a 80 sign above Gandara, it is likely he went there to stage his army for some larger attack, given that Gandara is the largest fortress in Elona.

 

We still don't know where that portal leads, nor can we be certain Gandara is Episode 3 and not Episode 4. Gandara also seems a pretty strange place to stage for an attack on Tyria, given it's the opposite side of Elona. Unless he's sending a fleet through Malchor's Strait.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> We still don't know where that portal leads, nor can we be certain Gandara is Episode 3 and not Episode 4. Gandara also seems a pretty strange place to stage for an attack on Tyria, given it's the opposite side of Elona. Unless he's sending a fleet through Malchor's Strait.

Gandara makes perfect sense to stage an attack given its huge size, great fortifications, and the fact that Joko now has awakened Inquest, and thus, could possibly make another gate hub somewhere. It is probably the most secure location on the continent, making it the perfect place to build said gate hub, and store and grow the scarab plague samples into a larger batch, in a place that any possible enemy, such as an overly nosy commander and his squad of B-team rejects, would have a great deal trouble attacking successfully.

 

Literally, there really is no better place in Elona to marshal a large fighting force, and stage an attack from, its also close enough to Jahai that it makes sense Joko could fall back there for his inevitable defeat later.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Daybreak rather showed that the Awakened Inquest can't really help much in the way of making their magitech work, given the fact that Joko required Taimi's knowhow to get that holo-wall down so that he could even begin to access the asura gate network in Fahranur. This alone shows that the Awakened Inquest Joko has are on par to his Awakened Soldiers at best. To quote a dialogue in the Bone Palace:

 

Awakened Soldier (1): How'd you die?

Awakened Soldier (2): Don't remember. You?

Awakened Soldier (1): Don't remember.

Awakened Soldier (2): Huh. Not important.

 

Aka, they're dumbasses. Or to put it more elequantly: there is a good chance they lose memories when Awakened, at least for the generic fodder Awakened which, so far, every asura has been.

 

So I question Joko's ability to create a new gate hub, since he needed Taimi to tell him how to activate them in Fahrar. This implies that he himself learned how to manipulate Primus' gate hub, or perhaps had Lonai do so. Which in turn implies that he won't be capable of making a new gate, let alone a gate hub.

 

In fact, Joko using Zinn to make golems rather than Awakening him then making golems, which would allow him to perfectly clean up any chance of his actions being tracked back to him, in GW1 further indicates this even more.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > The portal he entered was probably connected to another Inquest's base. I mean Fahranur was connected to Rata Primus, so perhaps Rata Primus one was connected to another base?

> You seem to forget that Joko had made his own portal, and didn't walk into one of the Inquest's portals. He didn't even use an Inquest gate either.

>

> Given the leaks that show a 80 sign above Gandara, it is likely he went there to stage his army for some larger attack, given that Gandara is the largest fortress in Elona.

 

Yeah, I knew you'd point it out. It doesn't make my prediction incorrect, though. He might have also made his own portal on his way to Rata Primus in Daybreak.

 

Also Joko had an access to Inquest's secrets, mysterious bases etc.

 

It'd be kind of weird if he would return to Elona, though. He has sent the plague, his anger is great, so why hold it now?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> In fact, Joko using Zinn to make golems rather than Awakening him then making golems, which would allow him to perfectly clean up any chance of his actions being tracked back to him, in GW1 further indicates this even more.

And yet he threatens to kill Taimi when she refuses to operate the holodoor, saying it doesn't matter if he kills her before or after, suggesting him Awakening her or not has no impact on her ability to operate said machinery.

 

And we see throughout Path of Fire, Daybreak, and Bug in the System, that many of his awakened, such as one of the High Judges, Warden Amala, Warden Jabari, Wurmmarshal Osa Ekolo, Vizier Kasahn, Commander Lonai, and many others still retain their full knowledge and intellect.

 

He is obviously able to awaken those who he deems important in a better condition then just the generic soldiers. Not to mention its unlikely he is responsible for most awakenings, leaving that to other priests, who likely aren't as effective as him at it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> And yet he threatens to kill Taimi when she refuses to operate the holodoor, saying it doesn't matter if he kills her before or after, suggesting him Awakening her or not has no impact on her ability to operate said machinery.

 

Given the fact that simply Awakening her and having her act for him would be the simpler route, he wanted her alive. Either for her knowledge, or to let the Commander watch her die. Though in all honesty, making us fight an Awakened Taimi would have been far more sinister for Joko, I would argue.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> And we see throughout Path of Fire, Daybreak, and Bug in the System, that many of his awakened, such as one of the High Judges, Warden Amala, Warden Jabari, Wurmmarshal Osa Ekolo, Vizier Kasahn, Commander Lonai, and many others still retain their full knowledge and intellect.

>

> He is obviously able to awaken those who he deems important in a better condition then just the generic soldiers. Not to mention its unlikely he is responsible for most awakenings, leaving that to other priests, who likely aren't as effective as him at it.

 

And yet, the fact he needed Taimi showed us that during Daybreak, he had no intelligent asura. Nor have we seen any in A Bug in the System. So to quote yourself:

 

> Until they are, then they haven't, that is how narrative works.

 

Though I would add in that it depends upon context; and given we never see a smart Awakened asura, despite multiple scenarios calling for such if Joko had any, the chances are fairly high this is indeed the case. Especially for a speciesist like Joko.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Given the fact that simply Awakening her and having her act for him would be the simpler route, he wanted her alive. Either for her knowledge, or to let the Commander watch her die. Though in all honesty, making us fight an Awakened Taimi would have been far more sinister for Joko, I would argue.

I would presume its because he likes watching people squirm, and the emotional impact of having the Commander being forced to kill Taimi themselves.

 

>And yet, the fact he needed Taimi showed us that during Daybreak, he had no intelligent asura. Nor have we seen any in A Bug in the System. So to quote yourself:

Sure, but that's because he hasn't chosen to raise any in that manner yet. All I pointed out was that he ad the ability, and its even referenced that he had the ability.

[Edelweiss.4261]

I kind of hope we don't spend much more time on Joko. I find him largely uninteresting, and I don't think we can see meaningful change come to his domain anytime soon. I guess he feels more like a random encounter than a boss battle.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>because at the last minute the Order of Shadows via Kito saves him. Their goal was to prevent the invasion, not dethrone Joko. They want to maintain status quo, and saving Joko has put him in their debt (not that he'd truly thank them).

This is not the Order of Shadows' goal. Their goal is to take down Joko, but they don't want him to fall before there is something suitable to take his place, as they don't want to risk plunging Elona into chaos(es explained by the Shadow's agent when you enter Vabbi). They even have plans for Kossan to become a major figure in the post-Joko era, as evidenced by dialog between Keeper Pamir and Redeemer Kossan, and have been collecting the true history of Elona from the old storehouses of Vabbi for that time as well.

 

This is exactly what Kito is indirectly helping you do so far in the living world by getting you in touch with the Sunspears, helping you get the Corsairs on your side, and the other hand shaking stuff he puts the Commander through. He is using you to build an alliance of Elonian groups so that they can be a stabilizing force in the post-Joko Elona.

 

>At some point during the season we will learn that Logan has been preparing for an assault against Kralkatorrik (Crystal Overlook would be a good place to put that, so Episode 8) and though we're opposed due to the whole "we can't kill any more Elder Dragons"

Logan is the first person who, if told by the Commander and Rytlok that killing another Elder Dragon would end Tyria, and thus destroy Kryta and the Queen, to defend us in not doing so. We also know Rytlok is in contact with Logan based on his dialog at the end of episode 1, so Logan likely already knows, and Rytlok says he will ask Logan to mobilize the Pact against Joko's forces that are in Tria, while we are down here cutting them off at the source.

 

 

[Arden.7480]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >because at the last minute the Order of Shadows via Kito saves him. Their goal was to prevent the invasion, not dethrone Joko. They want to maintain status quo, and saving Joko has put him in their debt (not that he'd truly thank them).

> This is not the Order of Shadows' goal. Their goal is to take down Joko, but they don't want him to fall before there is something suitable to take his place, as they don't want to risk plunging Elona into chaos(es explained by the Shadow's agent when you enter Vabbi). They even have plans for Kossan to become a major figure in the post-Joko era, as evidenced by dialog between Keeper Pamir and Redeemer Kossan, and have been collecting the true history of Elona from the old storehouses of Vabbi for that time as well.

>

> This is exactly what Kito is indirectly helping you do so far in the living world by getting you in touch with the Sunspears, helping you get the Corsairs on your side, and the other hand shaking stuff he puts the Commander through. He is using you to build an alliance of Elonian groups so that they can be a stabilizing force in the post-Joko Elona.

>

> >At some point during the season we will learn that Logan has been preparing for an assault against Kralkatorrik (Crystal Overlook would be a good place to put that, so Episode 8) and though we're opposed due to the whole "we can't kill any more Elder Dragons"

> Logan is the first person who, if told by the Commander and Rytlok that killing another Elder Dragon would end Tyria, and thus destroy Kryta and the Queen, to defend us in not doing so. We also know Rytlok is in contact with Logan based on his dialog at the end of episode 1, so Logan likely already knows, and Rytlok says he will ask Logan to mobilize the Pact against Joko's forces that are in Tria, while we are down here cutting them off at the source.

>

>

 

We didn't need Kito to get the corsairs on our side in the first place. We would do it perfectly all alone, and he was just checking us what we do. We learned from the Priests about the Sayida's lost coin, they told us everything and they gave us an idea to protect Istan from Joko- going to Koss- taking the coin- have some talk with Sayida- prepare the grog- save Zaeim- rebuild Sunspears' forces.

 

The Order of Shadows had nothing to do with it.

 

I don't know you noticed some weird dialogues, that may give you some suspicions that Kito and his organization care only of themselves, not for the greatest good- free Elona.

 

Also he based his reputation on lies. (I will give you proofs)

 

"Secured proof that Shadows plays all sides off each other to keep the status quo churning and exploitable. They advance Joko's cause one day, Sunspears' the next. A very dangerous game."

"Troubling: confirmed that Shadows sacrifices innocents simply to protect their ability to influence events. Schemes that only serve to perpetuate more schemes—do they even have an endgame?" [Order of Whispers Mission Dispatches](http://https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Order_of_Whispers_Mission_Dispatches "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Order_of_Whispers_Mission_Dispatches")

 

"Agent Kito told us tales of how the two of you killed Balthazar."

"Is it true you and Agent Kito also killed two Elder Dragons?" [The Hero of Istan](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Hero_of_Istan)

 

 

Also he broke his promise: "Leave that to me, Commander. I'll be stationed outside with the cavalry." And then after we broke free from Crescent Hall he and his cavalry weren't there. All I saw were the Sunspears.

 

 

 

I think the Pact WILL prepare the assault on Kralkatorrik, because we have to have the army. We can't just go to Kourna (or wherever Kralkatorrik will be then) as the Dragon's Watch, because it will be a suicide.

 

Also Logan probably realized that some ordinary arrows or swords can't defeat him, that's why Rytlock had the Spear created from Kralkatorrik's blood.

 

I think the Pact will fight outside Kralkatorrik's realm to buy us some time to prepare. Then we'll (the Commander, Kasmeer, Canach, Marjory, Rytlock and Taimi alongside with Zojja, and Caithe and obviously Aurene) go to do something what Destiny's Edge tried to do- manipulate Kralkatorrik's mind, weaken him, and then Aurene will use the combined powers with the commander to destroy Kralkatorrik, and Aurene will consume its power.

 

That's at least the happiest version. :)

[Arden.7480]

> @"Edelweiss.4261" said:

> I kind of hope we don't spend much more time on Joko. I find him largely uninteresting, and I don't think we can see meaningful change come to his domain anytime soon. I guess he feels more like a random encounter than a boss battle.

 

I think this thread is interesting, but I don't want the most of the season would be build only on the scheme that we chase after Joko all the time.

 

Joko as the villain is awesome, but I am afraid if they gonna extend this whole mess in Episode 4 or 5, it would be disasterous.

 

Giving some epic battles in Episode 3, showing his whole wickedness to all of us would be the best thing (in my opinion) to end Joko's story and start to focus on Kralkatorrik.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

>We didn't need Kito to get the corsairs on our side in the first place.

I didn't say we did, I said he helped, not that he was necessary.

>I don't know you noticed some weird dialogues,

I have, and what is said in the "Order of Whispers Mission Dispatches" is literally the very thing I pointed out. They DO play both sides in an attempt to keep a relative status quo, because they know they can't just unseat Joko without something being ready to take his place. As we have seen with many real world dictatorships, a quick rebellion may unseat them, but while they were terrible people, things get worse with them gone because they were a stabilizing, if tyrannical force, force, and nothing was there to take its place, leading to large scale chaos in the places they controlled.That's part of the reason they have a plan to use Kossan's status as a descendant of famed Elonian heroes to get people to rally behind him in a post-Joko Elona.

>"Agent Kito told us tales of how the two of you killed Balthazar."

He lied to get the Spearmashall to trust him more, Order of Whispers does the same thing... and they are part of the Pact.

>Also he broke his promise: "Leave that to me, Commander. I'll be stationed outside with the cavalry." And then after we broke free from Crescent Hall he and his cavalry weren't there. All I saw were the Sunspears.

That is literally who he meant by the cavalry... the Sunspears. Who did you think he was going to bring?

>I think the Pact WILL prepare the assault on Kralkatorrik, because we have to have the army. We can't just go to Kourna (or wherever Kralkatorrik will be then) as the Dragon's Watch, because it will be a suicide.

Sure, but that is what we are doing right now, building said army. The Sunspears, the Order of Shadows, the Sly Corsairs, the Olmakhan, whoever else we end up helping between now and when we face down Kralkatorik. Its the same thing as the base game where we got the Three Orders of Tyria, and tribes of ogres, hylek, skritt, quaggan, and grawl, together to fight Zhaitan, and like how in Heart of Thorns we made allies in the Itzel, the Exalted, and the Nuhoch, to help us reach and defeat Mordremoth.

>Then we'll (the Commander, Kasmeer, Canach, Marjory, Rytlock and Taimi alongside with Zojja, and Caithe and obviously Aurene) go to do something what Destiny's Edge tried to do- manipulate Kralkatorrik's mind, weaken him, and then Aurene will use the combined powers with the commander to destroy Kralkatorrik, and Aurene will consume its power.

Probably something like that will happen I suspect.

[Castigator.3470]

Well, if I may swoop in, drop an opinion and swoop out, I'd say Joko will not be the king of Elona after living season four.

That's it, though. He'll likely go back to becoming the scourge of Vabbi, or entombed in his prison, just like Turai Ossa intended. Maybe we'll summon Ossa to get some help.

In order to get there, we'll likely visit at least one part of Elona. I do not know Elona well enough to be able to tell where exactly.

 

About Joko's powerbase: His army command structure is largely intact, but his ranks are thinned out, since he had to fight a two front war against Kralkatorrik and Balthasar. Undead lost to the crystal dragon get branded and cannot be recycled.

Also, they cannot be raised indefinitely. Remember the the Boneyard? Undead, that have become undesirable go there, but most of them have decayed to bones and dust. If you damage the body badly enough, as in dismemberment, grievous bodily harm, crushing, or incineration, they cannot be raised anymore.

Sure, you may be able to bring back the officers, whose bodies are easy to recover, but only for so long, until you have to replace them. And Joko's recruits are nothing special. His cavalry is great, fast and experienced, his worms are tough, his veterans are fierce, but when he loses his old guard he has to fall back on those kitten recruits we help train in the Domain of Vabbi.

 

His civil administration has been hit quite badly. Kralkatorrik has cut a big branded swath through his realm and the sunspears are messing up the areas Kralkatorrik didn't hit.

Also, if the knowlege about Joko's lies spreads over all of Elona, considering the sunspears are quite good at spreading this information, his popular support may dwindle.

His last hope is to achieve victory against either an external power, or Kralkatorrik.

 

If the commander denies him that victory, he may aswell resign, because the Sunspears will force it eventually.

This is the reason the first chapter has been named daybreak. At the end of the episode Istan has almost gained independence from Joko. When we were there the last remaining port was unter regular raids from both Sunspears and Corsairs. Archon Iberu was killed by the Sunspears. He may be salvaged this time, but the wear and tear will get too much eventually. We have to remember, that Iberu replaced the former Archon, otherwise we'd have met some awakened officer.

 

And let's not forget that the Undead Kingdom of Elona has a single point of failure: Joko himself. If we manage to banish him back into that monument, he'll be gone for a long time. At least until an event like Nightfall weakens reality enough to allow him some wiggle room. The order of Whispers has done it once, they can do it again.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Given the fact that simply Awakening her and having her act for him would be the simpler route, he wanted her alive. Either for her knowledge, or to let the Commander watch her die. Though in all honesty, making us fight an Awakened Taimi would have been far more sinister for Joko, I would argue.

> I would presume its because he likes watching people squirm, and the emotional impact of having the Commander being forced to kill Taimi themselves.

 

Definitely true if we're talking back in GW1 but:

 

> Palawa Joko: The old me would've drawn this out long enough for you to hear the death screams of Tyrian victims.

> Palawa Joko: The new me, on the other hand... Better to be sure. Commander Lonai?

 

Becomes kind of contradictory, doesn't that?

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Sure, but that's because he hasn't chosen to raise any in that manner yet. All I pointed out was that he ad the ability, and its even referenced that he had the ability.

 

Yet, as you say, he hadn't.

 

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> Joko as the villain is awesome, but I am afraid if they gonna extend this whole mess in Episode 4 or 5, it would be disasterous.

 

Depends on how they do it, in all honesty, and how much progress is made against Joko.

 

Joko isn't just some villain you can run up to and bash with a club. Even if you ignore the whole "he cannot be killed" aspect, there's the entirety of his nation. A third of the fight against him is fighting Elona on a whole. Not to mention we know just about nothing about Joko's history and origins, let alone *how to actually kill him*. And so far, there hasn't been any debate about trying to re-imprison Joko.

 

IMHO, it would be disastrous to not give him enough time. The same thing already happened to most villains in GW2 - Caudecus and Faolain are prime examples of "foes that came back after a break which died too fast". Path of Fire hardly counts because we never actually oppose him or his sovereignty. Despite what Sajuuk constantly claims, with one maybe two exceptions, all Awakened we kill are low to mid ranked fodder and are ultimately unimportant in fighting Joko - about as important as [killing this guy](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dzhudin_Stormbreak) was for fighting Zhaitan.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > Given the fact that simply Awakening her and having her act for him would be the simpler route, he wanted her alive. Either for her knowledge, or to let the Commander watch her die. Though in all honesty, making us fight an Awakened Taimi would have been far more sinister for Joko, I would argue.

> > I would presume its because he likes watching people squirm, and the emotional impact of having the Commander being forced to kill Taimi themselves.

>

> Definitely true if we're talking back in GW1 but:

>

> > Palawa Joko: The old me would've drawn this out long enough for you to hear the death screams of Tyrian victims.

> > Palawa Joko: The new me, on the other hand... Better to be sure. Commander Lonai?

>

> Becomes kind of contradictory, doesn't that?

>

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > Sure, but that's because he hasn't chosen to raise any in that manner yet. All I pointed out was that he ad the ability, and its even referenced that he had the ability.

>

> Yet, as you say, he hadn't.

>

> > @"Arden.7480" said:

> > Joko as the villain is awesome, but I am afraid if they gonna extend this whole mess in Episode 4 or 5, it would be disasterous.

>

> Depends on how they do it, in all honesty, and how much progress is made against Joko.

>

> Joko isn't just some villain you can run up to and bash with a club. Even if you ignore the whole "he cannot be killed" aspect, there's the entirety of his nation. A third of the fight against him is fighting Elona on a whole. Not to mention we know just about nothing about Joko's history and origins, let alone *how to actually kill him*. And so far, there hasn't been any debate about trying to re-imprison Joko.

>

> IMHO, it would be disastrous to not give him enough time. The same thing already happened to most villains in GW2 - Caudecus and Faolain are prime examples of "foes that came back after a break which died too fast". Path of Fire hardly counts because we never actually oppose him or his sovereignty. Despite what Sajuuk constantly claims, with one maybe two exceptions, all Awakened we kill are low to mid ranked fodder and are ultimately unimportant in fighting Joko - about as important as [killing this guy](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dzhudin_Stormbreak) was for fighting Zhaitan.

 

I am counting on "Deus ex machina" thing. :)

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Becomes kind of contradictory, doesn't that?

No, because he isn't drawing it out while doing it. Drawing it out would be acting like he did before, aka like Dr Evil from Austin Powers, and putting Taimi in an easily escapable trap in the process. Here, he is just threatening to kill someone during something that is going to take five seconds either way.

 

> @"Castigator.3470" said:

> His civil administration has been hit quite badly. Kralkatorrik has cut a big branded swath through his realm and the sunspears are messing up the areas Kralkatorrik didn't hit.

Not to mention we have personally killed all the major local leaders in the Desolation, Vabbi, and Istan, throughout the story missions and open world events.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>about as important as [killing this guy](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dzhudin_Stormbreak) was for fighting Zhaitan.

Killing Iberu and Lonai would be far closer to kill something like the Eye or Mouth of Zhaitan, given how high up the game placed them in Joko's army/administration. While some of the more prominent individuals, like the High Judges, would be closer to killing the Temple priests in Orr, given how much they manage.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>The same thing already happened to most villains in GW2 - Caudecus

Ohh god no, the game needed LESS Caudecus if anything. They rubbed him in your face so hard it became unbareable, especially in LWS3 when they retconed him as being behind all the other human origin/background stories that he wasn't already heavily suggested to be behind. They spent WAY too much time on him then they should have, and he should have been out of the picture way back in the base game.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Killing Iberu and Lonai would be far closer to kill something like the Eye or Mouth of Zhaitan, given how high up the game placed them in Joko's army/administration. While some of the more prominent individuals, like the High Judges, would be closer to killing the Temple priests in Orr, given how much they manage.

 

For those three cases, I agree. But for all the others you've repeatedly claimed are just as major impacts, I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

Then again, even killing Iberu was hardly that damaging in the long run.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >The same thing already happened to most villains in GW2 - Caudecus

> Ohh god no, the game needed LESS Caudecus if anything. They rubbed him in your face so hard it became unbareable, especially in LWS3 when they retconed him as being behind all the other human origin/background stories that he wasn't already heavily suggested to be behind. They spent WAY too much time on him then they should have, and he should have been out of the picture way back in the base game.

 

Caudecus was pretty obviously always behind the vast majority of plots in the human storylines. Ever since Edge of Destiny, Caudecus was established as "the de facto human villains' puppeteer". We already knew he was backing the bandits (and by extension, the White Mantle) from dead sister storyline, and his hand was pretty obvious in the street rat, commoner, and noble storylines. It was really only the Ringmasters' plot that was questionable, and only that due to it being unclear who the Ringmaster was working for. Everything else he had either a direct or indirect tie to from the get go - no retcon there, really.

 

They hadn't rubbed him in our face at all. We literally got one mention in the second instance of the first episode, saw him in the last instance of that episode, and then saw him in the last instance of the fourth episode, barely getting a mention of him anywhere inbetween the first and second encounter.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> They hadn't rubbed him in our face at all. We literally got one mention in the second instance of the first episode, saw him in the last instance of that episode, and then saw him in the last instance of the fourth episode, barely getting a mention of him anywhere inbetween the first and second encounter.

I was speaking of his total presence in the game, not just Season 3. Caudicus was behind more plotlines then even Zhaitan was in the vanilla game, and Zhaitan was the final boss FFS! He should have had his little rebellion attempt, and him being stopped, back in the base game, but that didn't happen. His relatively quick death in Season 3 was just a long overdue ending to his story, which was mostly in the base game, and had been dealt with in the base game, when the various human characters dismantled all of his plots(since we know all of the origin stories happened, except only your character, human or not, became the big hero).

 

Really, the only problem with Caudicus's story was that the lake Doric map with the White Mantle rebelling wasn't part of the base game as a level 50-60ish leveling map, taking place after his "invitation" to be held for safety at the palace after the level 40(?) Caudicus Manor dungeon story mode, and after the Priory Order storyline where they rescue Demmi Beetlestone(levels 40-50).

[Kossage.9072]

The plot's been going in an interesting direction, and there are lots of ways the narrative designers might address it as we move onward. There are also quite a few mysteries left untold although it's unlikely we'd see all of them addressed this season. Here are some plot threads I'd like to see:

 

1) Thanks to hints sprinkled throughout the season so far, the narrative has managed to keep it somewhat ambiguous whether we're dealing with the real Joko or an imposter even though the characters now believe we're facing the real deal. Granted, we already had the "Lazarus" plot recently, so would the story still dare do a redux of it with "Joko" even if the twist of the true identity turned out to be interesting? If we're dealing with an imposter, though, it'll be fascinating to learn who he/she is, why they're so angry at the Commander, and if they have a bigger master plan where the Scarab Plague is but a minor part.

 

2) Balthazar and Lyssa. This would mainly include the mystery surrounding Lyssa's allegiance and whether there's a possibility that either Ilya or Lyss had feelings for Balthazar or would otherwise sense his demise and how they'd react to it. While it's likely that Balthazar got Lyssa's Mirror from Lyssa's Reliquary, it's still intriguing to me that S3 and PoF gave us all these references to Lyssa from various sources.

 

3) Resolution of Menzies plot. Peter Fries explained during the written Twitch chat about PoF narrative that earlier iterations of PoF story would've had more references to Menzies and that it's possible some of those elements might see the light of day in the future. If this turns out to be so, I wonder if Menzies and Shadow Army plot will be wrapped up in a raid or referenced via other means. It would be even cooler if the curious plot reference to Balthazar's mysteriously lost dagger from Draconis Mons made a return in this plot, perhaps now wielded by Menzies as he tries to legitimize his claim to the Fissure of Woe.

 

4) Kito and the Order of Shadows. While we've met sympathetic individuals and Kito himself claims to want to help people, both Kito and the order have been cast in a somewhat shady light due to specific bits of dialogue in Season 4 as well as the Order of Whispers notes whose vocal version ended with the exposed Whispers agent being apparently strangled to death by Shadows operatives. Will we see more of Kossan, the Master of Shadows and others, and learn the Shadows' ultimate goal in their complex web of schemes? Is the Master seen in the Chantry of Shadows truly the Master or just a front for the true mastermind? Will we learn what's behind the sealed door in the Chantry? Given the hints that the original Order of Whispers survives in the south, it would be interesting to see our Whispers and Elona's Whispers unite forces while Shadows makes their move. I wonder if we'll ever keep our promise and tell Kito how we returned back to life as he was most interested in finding out the specifics in PoF.

 

5) Uniting the Istani and Vabbian Sunspears. Given how Spearmarshal Zaeim shares history with First Spear Kitur (having been Kitur's student before leaving for Istan despite Kitur's protests), I'd like to see master and student meet and reconcile. Even better if the narrative managed to tie in the griffon quest storyline into it: perhaps we and Zaeim lead a seemingly successful charge against Joko's forces only to end up in a devious trap where even Aurene can't help us. But then at, our darkest hour, we see a flight of griffons ridden by Vabbian Sunspears soar overhead and assault Joko's forces with Tahlkora (or one of the other Sunspears) shouting the iconic line of their order: "Sunspears never fight alone". It would be nice to see Tahlkora officially recognize Zaeim as the new Spearmarshal, ritualistically passing the mantle on him and truly unite the factions into a stronger entity. Perhaps we'd even see some resolution to Koss's story, especially if the Sunspear plot involved Kossan and the (potentially nefarious) Order of Shadows.

 

6) Return of the Pact with Marshal Logan and a new Pact Commander. Season 2 already revealed that we had had successors in the Pact; whether any of those commanders survived the Maguuma campaign is unknown, but we should hopefully see a new Commander acting as Logan's right hand. Perhaps this Commander would not like us because we did basically abandon the Pact in its darkest hour, and the new Commander might view it as an act of betrayal. Having some more friction between our allies aside from the Braham stuff would be nice, especially if the new Commander was made a sympathetic if harsh individual whose motivations a

were understandable (and perhaps he/she could voice the dissatisfaction of those players who felt we never should've left the Pact to begin with).

 

7) Revenge on Kralkatorrik. There are quite a few folks out there who have a bone to pick with ol' Kralky. Almorra lost her warband to the dragon and would want to bring the beast down no matter what (could even we be able to convince her otherwise?), Logan would want to redeem himself and this time face Kralky for real, and hopefully Zojja would make an appearance as a last hurrah to Destiny's Edge. Seeing them reunite with Caithe and Rytlock would be nice to see, and they could help realize Eir's vision at long last. Even better if the fan theory of part of Snaff's consciousness surviving within Kralky's mind turned out to be true; that way we could have one last emotional scene with Snaff before saying farewell to him for good. This Kralky plot should also include a meeting between Logan and Aurene and their reactions; I'd really like to see how he addressed her and whether he apologized to her about leaving at a crucial moment which led to her mom Glint's death.

 

8) A recurring Branded lieutenant as an antagonist. There's practically King Frozenwind's chance in Primal Kiln for any such intelligent Branded lieutenant to appear in the story at this stage (I wish Chief Kronon hadn't been slain as a mere bounty but had become a recurring antagonist and mouthpiece for Kralky), but I'd really like a speaking Branded like Victurus the Shattered acting in a role similar to some of the Risen lieutenants like Labwan the Deceiver of Eyes of Zhaitan to show that not all Branded are mindless, silent elemental horrors. Kralky is shown to be more than a force of nature with a truly malicious and greedy personality, so either hearing Kralky talk or the lieutenant to deliver messages would be effective in painting the dragon as a terrifying antagonist.

 

9) Rytlock and Rox's charr politics subplots. Rox has her mystery since Season 2 about spying on someone in Camp Resolve (and lying to us when we questioned her) and how the strange Monti Scythescrape tied into it. Rytlock still hasn't told us the full story of what happened in the Mists, and we don't know why whatever he learned is so top secret that only the charr with the highest ranks are privy to the discussions in the tribunal. Is Bangar involved, what's going on with Smodur, and is this all going to tie to a future charr storyline?

 

10) The new Destiny's Edge. I'd like to see these fellows make a proper entrance into the narrative at some point and show how bad an influence they might be on Braham. Their group must've been pretty good to not only reach Jormag past thousands of Icebrood but surround the dragon as well, and it was unfortunate that we never got to meet them in S3 even if it was for understandable reasons. I wouldn't expect to meet them in S4, but I hope they haven't been cast aside forever as they still have potential.

 

11) Hidden City of Ahdashim and Shiny. I wonder if we'll get to meet that curious dragon in GW2 and if he'll be able to be of some use to us. It would be cool if he was working alongside his original caretaker Goren's descendants and djinn, and came to our aid in the fight against Kralkatorrik. Aurene and Shiny's interactions would likely be adorable as he could become a big brother figure after the loss of Vlast.

 

12) Zalambur and Imann. Both of these characters are fascinating, and it would be nice to interact with them before we move away from Elona. There's quite a bit of potential in Zalambur and Kiel's "friendship", and I'd like the Hamaseen to come to our aid once again despite being just as shady as the Order of Shadows.

 

13) Facing the three Awakened marshals. This plot was already foreshadowed by Osa Ekolo's dialogue in "A Small Victory (Epilogue)" based on our choice of which faction Amnoon allied with. Facing the three marshals as honorable enemies would give us more than just one-scene wonder lieutenants (unlike Amala and Lonai), and perhaps we'd feel bad having to put them down in our inevitable clash with Joko. While Osa Ekolo might be the most understanding of the trio, I imagine Oluwa Eranko would react harshly to our deception, and Olori Ogun might view it as a personal honor to face us in glorious combat. Hopefully it doesn't mean we'll kill the trio off for good as I liked each of them in PoF story, but I can see their ultimate demises being a nice dramatic moment where we'd feel "sympathy for the devil", as it were because we once fought as allies for a good cause.

 

14) Elonian centaurs in Kourna or wherever. While it seems that many Elonian centaurs were massacred for the expansion of the Bone Palace, it'd be nice to see some centaurs survive out there in the wilds, perhaps led by Zhed Shadowhoof's descendant. Interacting with the Maguuma centaurs in Season 2 was nice, and it would be fun to see centaurs as allies and/or enemies, depending on whether any Veldrunner or Losaru centaurs survived.

 

15) Dzalana. Episode 2 already gave us an area in Dajkah, and Kourna seems a likely possibility in the future. Dzalana, however, is pretty much uncharted territory, and a map there could expand on the lore of the harpies, perhaps even tease their supposed origin as fallen servants/angels of Dwayna, which would be a nice tie-in to the gods plot. Harpies have such potential for the narrative, especially if we met the more intelligent ones and even got to interact with more "friendly" harpies like we did with the one in Joko's harem.

 

16) Kuda and the Director of the Inquest. Kuda was quite a fascinating addition in Sandswept Isles in the Specimen Chamber meta, and I wonder if she'll end up playing a role in the story proper at some point given her apparent ties to Kudu and dragon minion research. This would also be a nice way to get Zojja involved again as she wouldn't want anyone continuing Kudu's research no matter what, especially if said successor turned out to be Kudu's daughter. As for Inquest leadership, I wonder if the Director briefly seen in one of the holograms in E2 story was supposed to be the big leader of the Inquest or just some higher-up. We still don't know much about Inquest leaders, so this would give us a good opportunity to expand on that bit of lore and perhaps introduce new, smart antagonists into the mix.

 

I'm sure I'm missing a few intriguing plot points not brought up in this thread, but apart from the more obvious avenues the plot will take (Blish and Gorrik), I do hope at least some of the above get addressed (and possibly resolved) in some manner throughout Season 4. :)

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Kossage.9072" enumerated good points.

[Arden.7480]

@"Kossage.9072"

_Balthazar and Lyssa. This would mainly include the mystery surrounding Lyssa's allegiance and whether there's a possibility that either Ilya or Lyss had feelings for Balthazar or would otherwise sense his demise and how they'd react to it. While it's likely that Balthazar got Lyssa's Mirror from Lyssa's Reliquary, it's still intriguing to me that S3 and PoF gave us all these references to Lyssa from various sources._

 

2) He didn't. It depends on you believe in what Kormir said, or not, but it's the best source of information we had. _When he returned to this world, Balthazar disguised himself as Lazarus with Lyssa's Mirror_ ~Facing the Truth

 

I think "This world" means the Mists, not Tyria.

 

 

3) About Menzies, I think he will be the enemy in one of Raid wings. I think they will be concentrated on the "New Mists" after 5 Gods' departure.