Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > You aren't necessarily wrong, but I do understand why people don't like Scourge-stacking. It does devalue content because it makes said content tremendously easier, so I also do think that you may have to change some stuff to not rob the content of its meaning/flavor. That being said, I want to keep bouncing intact because its a nice teamplay-focused mechanic.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > sure, but its the same like ele in fractals where its god tier class, same like chrono all boon just 1 click there, isnt any other option for support cuz chrono is just insane,problem is there is no self-reflexion, i have no problem with ele be top class, same im ok chrono be best buffer,tank,dps, but once other class gets close or god help us, will be better. -> Hate will came and nerfs after that...

> > > > > > > > > > i was main necro and nonending nerfs just take my joy of the game... Anet just take epi and nothing will came back to compensate.. ever

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The problem is that you can't make classes too powerful or else you devalue content because it becomes too easy. Sometimes, you have to nerf stuff in order to balance things.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > looks like this is only idea if comes to necro huh?

> > > > > > > > It suprise me, there is still stuff to nerf.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you've read the thread, you'd know that I'd like to keep Epidemic-bouncing intact. It should just be nerfed to a reasonable amount. I'm also all for changing classes like Chrono, which are indeed overpowered.

> > > > > > Yes, it would be a good idea to delete quickness and alacrity boons from the game. They are way too powerful

> > > > >

> > > > > Come on, don't be polemic please. You know exactly what I mean. The problem isn't perma-quickness and -alacrity, it's also everything else like overpowered CC, a lot of powerful utilities and weapon-skill, the boon-spam through Chaos, optimal tank and optimal support in one, etc. Chrono is simply too good at too many things and that's bad game-design since you have no alternative, thus two chronos will always be mandatory. The Scourge-"problem" is peanuts in comparison.

> > > >

> > > > Then again I was serious about it. Removing quickness and alacrity would be the easiest fix for the absurdly high dps potential players have in this game

> > >

> > > The abundance of boons was intended by the developers and was deemed necessary by them to beat raids.

> > We all know that their play testers are terrible

>

> Maybe.

>

> But then: Don't you think removing the boon-abundance, thus lowering outgoing damage while also increasing incoming damage would make instanced PvE content even more niche than it already is? That's no solution either.

Well I dont care if its niche, that would be an issue for Anet not for me. As of now the power of players is way too high because there are too many strong boons wich all can be upheld 24/7

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

 

That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

But let's see - you can bounce on VG, Sabetha, Xera, Deimos, Desmina, Dhuum. Compared to KC? Sure, eles are also good on Samarog, Gorseval and Sloth, but other power builds work just as well. The only place where eles really make a difference is KC. And all that it makes is you push the ball less.

[steki.1478]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

>

> That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> But let's see - you can bounce on VG, Sabetha, Xera, Deimos, Desmina, Dhuum. Compared to KC? Sure, eles are also good on Samarog, Gorseval and Sloth, but other power builds work just as well. The only place where eles really make a difference is KC. And all that it makes is you push the ball less.

 

Tbh you could easily bounce even on gorse from adds/walls (would require moving slightly towards them). 5 man sloth was done with 3-4 scourges. Samarog has spears all the time and MO is just as obvious, but epi is a lot more delayed, which makes MO probably the only balanced encounter when it comes to epi bouncing.

 

Just because ele could technically perform better on those big hitboxes, doesnt mean that epi cant be used effectively or mechanics couldnt be cheesed. But then again, you have dps ele spec with 10 dps modifiers and 5 important skills vs support necro spec with aoe barriers and 1 skill which scales with amount of condi classes in squad rather than own traits/condi application.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

>

> That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

 

But how often is it being reduced to that, and does it warrant any attention? Also why is it a problem, and stacking eles to melt bosses isn't? What's the dps of 2 good eles when compared to 2 necros epi bouncing? Keep in mind that only 1 of the necros will be anywhere near 30k, if we're being generous.

 

> But let's see - you can bounce on VG, Sabetha, Xera, Deimos, Desmina, Dhuum. Compared to KC? Sure, eles are also good on Samarog, Gorseval and Sloth, but other power builds work just as well. The only place where eles really make a difference is KC. And all that it makes is you push the ball less.

 

Only add to bounce off of in vg is the seekers, which only spawn once every 20 seconds, and has to be pulled close to the group to properly bounce and can be easily mucked up by an early glyph of tide or temporal curtain. Adds on Sab and Xera die very quickly to epi out, and a high level of coordination is needed to make that work. Deimos is better done as a power group, the adds on him only spawn once he's at 40%. 100-41% is going be very slow on a full necro comp, and risk the hand kiter running out of room, or the tank to miss a dodge/block/invul.

 

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> >

> > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> > But let's see - you can bounce on VG, Sabetha, Xera, Deimos, Desmina, Dhuum. Compared to KC? Sure, eles are also good on Samarog, Gorseval and Sloth, but other power builds work just as well. The only place where eles really make a difference is KC. And all that it makes is you push the ball less.

>

> Tbh you could easily bounce even on gorse from adds/walls (would require moving slightly towards them).

That's a dps loss and we'd prefer not to have that. ;)

 

>5 man sloth was done with 3-4 scourges. Samarog has spears all the time and MO is just as obvious, but epi is a lot more delayed, which makes MO probably the only balanced encounter when it comes to epi bouncing.

Anecdotal. Low man groups are not representative of the raiding population.

 

> Just because ele could technically perform better on those big hitboxes, doesn't mean that epi cant be used effectively or mechanics couldnt be cheesed. But then again, you have dps ele spec with 10 dps modifiers and 5 important skills vs support necro spec with aoe barriers and 1 skill which scales with amount of condi classes in squad rather than own traits/condi application.

 

Necros have always been a selfish dps class that needed other to be able to do anything. If you want to complain about cheesing mechanics, when was the last time anyone did kc's mechanics, you know the one where you get marked and have to kill off the adds with your colour? Or what about gors, aren't updraft tactics are becoming rarer? Should all dps classes then be nerfed to make us have to do those? Raid comps have always been about taking the comp that will let you skip, cheese, or otherwise ignore mechanics, and at the moment it happens to be scourge.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> >

> > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

>

> But how often is it being reduced to that, and does it warrant any attention? Also why is it a problem, and stacking eles to melt bosses isn't?

 

Because it's the hardest event in the game. And it is played almost exclusively by stacking scourges. Whereas stacking eles to melt bosses which melt anyway makes... such a difference.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> > >

> > > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> >

> > But how often is it being reduced to that, and does it warrant any attention? Also why is it a problem, and stacking eles to melt bosses isn't?

>

> Because it's the hardest event in the game. And it is played almost exclusively by stacking scourges. Whereas stacking eles to melt bosses which melt anyway makes... such a difference.

 

Do you have proof of your claim that necros are almost exclusively ran there?

 

And if the other bosses melt anyway, why bring them up as evidence to the opness of necro?

[Grimjack.8130]

Just because you use Epidemic, doesn't mean you're getting the same value off of it as another group using Epidemic at that same fight, here are some examples.

 

For Vale Guardian you can get 2 Epidemics fully casted and bounced back to Vale Guardian before the first set of seekers despawn, from my experience, most groups tend to only do 1 cast of Epidemic on each set, as they're a little slow on the first Epidemic cast and that means it won't be off cooldown fast enough to bounce the 2nd cast back. Some groups also kill some of the seekers mid cast, which means whoever was targeting a Seeker that died gets no damage from it (a dead enemy has no conditions.)

 

For Sabetha the fight depends so much on the overall group DPS, you can miss a large amount of the Epidemics off of Sappers/other adds if you have very high DPS as she'll rarely actually be on the platform, which means you get less value, because you get less Epidemics, don't get me wrong its still great regardless and it would be even if you never epi'd off of the Sappers/Additional Adds.

 

Using Scourges on Xera is rather difficult depending on the group. Most White Mantle mobs die very quickly, and if you end up targeting one that does die quickly for Epi Back, you'll most likely miss it, as it will die too quickly, although this can be nullified by the speed of the Epi Back player. Phantasms have an incredibly large amount of health, which means you won't have them die before casting it, but if they stay off of the group long enough, they might not die at all, and thats really bad because Epidemic spreads to the closest targets first, if either set of mobs spawn with a couple of Phantasms still alive, you might end up targetting a mob farther than the Phantasms, which could lead you to bounce nothing back, if you do end up targetting the Phantasm this time it might die before the projectile lands on Xera, its a huge case by case basis.

 

The only fight in WIng 4 where Epi bouncing is good is MO CM and Deimos CM, its BIS at MO CM, and slower than Weavers on Deimos CM, although much safer for most groups.

 

Soulless Horror is probably the hardest fight to coordinate Epidemic on out of all the fights, first and most importantly the Dead needs to not die in a bad spot, some druids are fast enough to let the Epi Out cast right as the Dead spawns, some aren't, which drastically reduces the chance of you hitting your Epidemic back. If they push the Dead too far away, it won't have any targets for the Epi Back, and some druids push it too fast where you miss your Epi Out. If you delay Epidemic to when its already pushed, the Dead very well could die before the projectile lands back on Desmina, although this is also a case by case basis if you're fast enough.

 

Dhuum CM is a very hard encounter for a vast majority of the raiders in this game, running pure Condi DPS can really make the Pre-Event hard if you're a tad slow, even considering casting Epidemic to the Messengers/Echo and back to the Enforcers. Dhuum CM also has the highest skill cap of using Epidemic, as you can control the Echo if everyone in your group is on the same page, which could lead to you almost casting Epi every 10 seconds rather than what most groups get, around every 20+ seconds. The hardest part about Dhuum CM will always be the Ender's Echo, and the level of DPS you can get out of Scourge there doesn't mean its not a challenge.

 

If new bosses get negatively affected by Epi Bouncing more than the 5 (7 if you count CMs) fights you currently run it on, then it becomes an actual issue, which I don't think it is right now. I'd like to see it stay until then.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> > > >

> > > > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> > >

> > > But how often is it being reduced to that, and does it warrant any attention? Also why is it a problem, and stacking eles to melt bosses isn't?

> >

> > Because it's the hardest event in the game. And it is played almost exclusively by stacking scourges. Whereas stacking eles to melt bosses which melt anyway makes... such a difference.

>

> Do you have proof of your claim that necros are almost exclusively ran there?

>

> And if the other bosses melt anyway, why bring them up as evidence to the opness of necro?

 

Here you [go](https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16731130 "go").

 

And you asked, I just answered.

[Funky.4861]

So we basically need two classes to co-ordinate their skill use in situations with more than one target where timing is critical to out-dps the top-tier class ? This is not a problem, this is teamplay! All an ele needs is boons, the necro needs to load-up with condi's with the help of other players and manage their spread. The ele tears just keep coming...

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> Dhuum CM is a very hard encounter for a vast majority of the raiders in this game, running pure Condi DPS can really make the Pre-Event hard if you're a tad slow, even considering casting Epidemic to the Messengers/Echo and back to the Enforcers. Dhuum CM also has the highest skill cap of using Epidemic, as you can control the Echo if everyone in your group is on the same page, which could lead to you almost casting Epi every 10 seconds rather than what most groups get, around every 20+ seconds. The hardest part about Dhuum CM will always be the Ender's Echo, and the level of DPS you can get out of Scourge there doesn't mean its not a challenge.

 

I agree. But Epi bounce is *literally* the only dps tactic used on this encounter. You can talk about weaver supremacy on KC, but many groups do just fine with other power dps builds like you can see [here](https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16235 "here"). Having a single comp for speed running an encounter s one thing. Having a single viable comp for a whole encounter is entirely different.

[Kam.4092]

Why is this thread still going?

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> > > > >

> > > > > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> > > >

> > > > But how often is it being reduced to that, and does it warrant any attention? Also why is it a problem, and stacking eles to melt bosses isn't?

> > >

> > > Because it's the hardest event in the game. And it is played almost exclusively by stacking scourges. Whereas stacking eles to melt bosses which melt anyway makes... such a difference.

> >

> > Do you have proof of your claim that necros are almost exclusively ran there?

> >

> > And if the other bosses melt anyway, why bring them up as evidence to the opness of necro?

>

> Here you [go](https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16731130 "go").

>

> And you asked, I just answered.

 

Site itself says medium confidence level and says sample size is not to their liking and could be skewing the data.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Kam.4092" said:

> Why is this thread still going?

Because the epidemic / epi bounce issue is still going on

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> > > > >

> > > > > But how often is it being reduced to that, and does it warrant any attention? Also why is it a problem, and stacking eles to melt bosses isn't?

> > > >

> > > > Because it's the hardest event in the game. And it is played almost exclusively by stacking scourges. Whereas stacking eles to melt bosses which melt anyway makes... such a difference.

> > >

> > > Do you have proof of your claim that necros are almost exclusively ran there?

> > >

> > > And if the other bosses melt anyway, why bring them up as evidence to the opness of necro?

> >

> > Here you [go](https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16731130 "go").

> >

> > And you asked, I just answered.

>

> Site itself says medium confidence level and says sample size is not to their liking and could be skewing the data.

 

Sure. But all the groups I've seen ran scourges. **All** of them. Some used a Holo, but they used it as a support and their dps got dwarfed by the epi bouncing scourges anyway. Sure, you can say *this* one is anecdotal. But given that I'm actively seeking these groups, I'll take my own experience plus raidar's stats, confident or not.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > thieves have medium armor and rev have medium hp pool and heavy armor. So both classes are by definition not as squishy as a weaver

> > > > >

> > > > > If anything warrior dps must be nerfed (to below thief and rev) since they have large health pool and heavy armor but currently do similar DPS than weaver in the benchmark

> > > >

> > > > I'd gladly give away 8 k hp and get +8k DPS and blocks and evades and invuln and sustain skills/traits as a necro.

> > > > And you as ele get this 8k hp, but you loose 8k DPS and all blocks, evades and invuln and sustain skills/traits

> > > >

> > > > Would be fair no?

> > > >

> > > > You see, that's not how it works, and you don't want it to be like that.

> > > > So next time you spill out such idiotic phrases, first think about the consequences.

> > > > If you wanna have something, you have to give something. That's how it works.

> > > > Sure if ele was underperforming you don't need to give something away. But ele is far away from underperforming

> > >

> > > Mate, I have zero blocks, and the only evade is Burning Retreat. And the difference in dps is nowhere near 8k now.

> >

> > Guess you are just one of those meta-copy idiots that don't know anything about their class. So pls stop arguing about another class if you can't even play your own.

>

> Guess I'm not. But here, I'll spell it you slowly for ya: if you spec for competitive dps, you have *zero* defense coming from utilities. None. No blocks, no invulns, nothing. If you *take* some, you lose dps and you're no longer doing "8k more". But you wanna talk fair? How would you like the "8k more" if you not only lost the barrier spam, but also had to pick up your shades from the ground in order to use their skills? How would you like the majority of your damage to come from targeted attacks, which you could miss, or the boss could simply walk away from? Please don't give me that load of crap. I have some mileage on both builds. Scourge would be fine (in PvE) if the silly bounce didn't exist. It does, however, and it is broken. Curiously enough, the same class is also broken in WvW. On a similar ground - it does waaaaay too much, waaaay too easily.

 

You just don't get it. As a ele you can take out offensive traits/skills and still do the same dmg, that necro does while being way more safe than necro.

Sure scourge has barrier. But that's the only thing he has defensive. And that's only every ~18 seconds, and you give it to the whole group, not just for yourself.

 

Bosses walking away from your dmg, hahaha. Someone told me some time ago, that I have to do better placement, especially with high dmg skill plaguelands.

 

So I give that back to you. And if boss walks unpredictable, you should consider switching out your tank.

 

And scourge wouldn't be fine in pve if bounce didn't exist. Only if you are defining fine = out of meta and not playable.

 

Dude: stacking scourges is only a thing at VG, xera, soulless horror and mursaat overseer. Sure you can do it at other bosses but its way harder to pull off the epi bounce there.

 

But like all bosses can be done by stacking Eles. Yeah seems fair.

4 bosses where necro is meta and it's considered op, but 14-17 bosses where ele is meta that's ok.

 

Asking for that epidemic nerf but not wanting to give necro more DPS as compensation is like asking for ele nerds because its strong at KC.

[Feanor.2358]

Lol right. When was the last time you saw anyone stacking eles on Matthias? :lol:

[nia.4725]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > > thieves have medium armor and rev have medium hp pool and heavy armor. So both classes are by definition not as squishy as a weaver

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If anything warrior dps must be nerfed (to below thief and rev) since they have large health pool and heavy armor but currently do similar DPS than weaver in the benchmark

> > > > >

> > > > > I'd gladly give away 8 k hp and get +8k DPS and blocks and evades and invuln and sustain skills/traits as a necro.

> > > > > And you as ele get this 8k hp, but you loose 8k DPS and all blocks, evades and invuln and sustain skills/traits

> > > > >

> > > > > Would be fair no?

> > > > >

> > > > > You see, that's not how it works, and you don't want it to be like that.

> > > > > So next time you spill out such idiotic phrases, first think about the consequences.

> > > > > If you wanna have something, you have to give something. That's how it works.

> > > > > Sure if ele was underperforming you don't need to give something away. But ele is far away from underperforming

> > > >

> > > > Mate, I have zero blocks, and the only evade is Burning Retreat. And the difference in dps is nowhere near 8k now.

> > >

> > > Guess you are just one of those meta-copy idiots that don't know anything about their class. So pls stop arguing about another class if you can't even play your own.

> >

> > Guess I'm not. But here, I'll spell it you slowly for ya: if you spec for competitive dps, you have *zero* defense coming from utilities. None. No blocks, no invulns, nothing. If you *take* some, you lose dps and you're no longer doing "8k more". But you wanna talk fair? How would you like the "8k more" if you not only lost the barrier spam, but also had to pick up your shades from the ground in order to use their skills? How would you like the majority of your damage to come from targeted attacks, which you could miss, or the boss could simply walk away from? Please don't give me that load of crap. I have some mileage on both builds. Scourge would be fine (in PvE) if the silly bounce didn't exist. It does, however, and it is broken. Curiously enough, the same class is also broken in WvW. On a similar ground - it does waaaaay too much, waaaay too easily.

>

> You just don't get it. As a ele you can take out offensive traits/skills and still do the same dmg, that necro does while being way more safe than necro.

> Sure scourge has barrier. But that's the only thing he has defensive. And that's only every ~18 seconds, and you give it to the whole group, not just for yourself.

>

> Bosses walking away from your dmg, hahaha. Someone told me some time ago, that I have to do better placement, especially with high dmg skill plaguelands.

>

> So I give that back to you. And if boss walks unpredictable, you should consider switching out your tank.

>

> And scourge wouldn't be fine in pve if bounce didn't exist. Only if you are defining fine = out of meta and not playable.

>

> Dude: stacking scourges is only a thing at VG, xera, soulless horror and mursaat overseer. Sure you can do it at other bosses but its way harder to pull off the epi bounce there.

>

> But like all bosses can be done by stacking Eles. Yeah seems fair.

> 4 bosses where necro is meta and it's considered op, but 14-17 bosses where ele is meta that's ok.

>

> Asking for that epidemic nerf but not wanting to give necro more DPS as compensation is like asking for ele nerds because its strong at KC.

 

Stacking scourges: whole W1, Trio, Matthias, Xera, W4 excepting Samarog, SH, Dhuum.

 

I agree with most of what you're saying but right now scourges are so OP that the best is to stack them in pretty much every possible boss. Stacking eles is very powerful still tho. But if you take out their traits their dps does not remain, ele works with those damage modifiers.

[Catchyfx.5768]

if this was some PvP or if raids work like 2 groups rushing and fastest group get superior loot i get it and nerf it.

But in game where you can make your own composition? And only an opponent is NPC and maybe time. Its still need cooperation with "others" not only keep rotation correct. And its one of the last necro skills that can rly help a group and it's unique(that means mesmer doesnt have it...yet).

 

Yes Im still for better healing power scaling barrier -> if full viper/zerker you get pretty low barrier, but full heal get even more then now.

Yes Scourge is just spamy aoe "newbie" class that is ultra simple but its because core necro, trust me that whole necro section wants "more challenging to play but more rewarding to get" class(some maybe for shuting eles mount if comes to PvE(PvP ele is something different and hardest to play class to me but no PvE)). Scourge is dull, but other necro specs are just bottom and uncompetitive.

And for those who came with "second healthbar", its our mana pool, everytime we are forced to press F1 just for survive, we fuck up our rotation badly. Maybe in open world it works like healthbar...for new players and for core necros because core shroud is meeeesss :-1:

 

Edit: And I think , revamping barriers for better scaling will hurt these necro stacking little bit it will be even harder if you dont have perma barier on whole team.

 

[ErgoProxy.9074]

Pretty funny how people want to nerf an already dog shit class for raids/fractals even more to the ground. Just becaus like somone already said here, it does really good against a small number of boss fights. People need to shut assholes like this down, or classes will just get nerfd to the ground, because everyone always wants to look out for their class to be the best.

[steki.1478]

> @"ErgoProxy.9074" said:

> Pretty funny how people want to nerf an already dog kitten class for raids/fractals even more to the ground. Just becaus like somone already said here, it does really good against a small number of boss fights. People need to shut kitten like this down, or classes will just get nerfd to the ground, because everyone always wants to look out for their class to be the best.

 

Wrong.

 

People dont want a necro nerf (it needs a buff actually). People want epi nerf. One thing is relying on your traits, rotations and position to do damage, other thing is to get majority of your damage when 5 people press one button every 12 seconds.

 

It's not like it's impossible to do since I do it with wvw guild where most of people have never seen raids and run in celestial gear, but bosses just melt anyways. I'm not really complaining because I get free loot anyways, but it's rather stupid and effortless for content that's supposed to be **hardcore endgame**. Mirage is in a pretty much same state where you get a lot of damage by just spamming 2 skills and a dodge button while not caring whats going on since you really don't have to.

 

There's nothing wrong in stacking a class that requires certain skill level and group support in order to work well, it's not something that everyone can pull off, but it's very rewarding when you do. Completely ignoring mechanics due to both high damage and high defense is just absurd, especially when it comes to low effort.

[ErgoProxy.9074]

“Wrong” what? Is epi a necro skill? Yea it is, therefore Youre nerfing necro lmao wtfff? hello?

[reikken.4961]

In theory, if epidemic is nerfed it frees up power budget for necro to actually be good. But anet has a pretty bad track record for these things, so I don't expect a nerf would come with any appropriate buffs.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But how often is it being reduced to that, and does it warrant any attention? Also why is it a problem, and stacking eles to melt bosses isn't?

> > > > >

> > > > > Because it's the hardest event in the game. And it is played almost exclusively by stacking scourges. Whereas stacking eles to melt bosses which melt anyway makes... such a difference.

> > > >

> > > > Do you have proof of your claim that necros are almost exclusively ran there?

> > > >

> > > > And if the other bosses melt anyway, why bring them up as evidence to the opness of necro?

> > >

> > > Here you [go](https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16731130 "go").

> > >

> > > And you asked, I just answered.

> >

> > Site itself says medium confidence level and says sample size is not to their liking and could be skewing the data.

>

> Sure. But all the groups I've seen ran scourges. **All** of them. Some used a Holo, but they used it as a support and their dps got dwarfed by the epi bouncing scourges anyway. Sure, you can say *this* one is anecdotal. But given that I'm actively seeking these groups, I'll take my own experience plus raidar's stats, confident or not.

 

Still anecdotal, and I don't think either one of us would accept anecdotal evidence as fact, would we?

[ErgoProxy.9074]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> In theory, if epidemic is nerfed it frees up power budget for necro to actually be good. But anet has a pretty bad track record for these things, so I don't expect a nerf would come with any appropriate buffs.

 

Yea fuck scourge nerf that shit if it means scourge becomes full blown support and reaper full dps.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > > > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But how often is it being reduced to that, and does it warrant any attention? Also why is it a problem, and stacking eles to melt bosses isn't?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Because it's the hardest event in the game. And it is played almost exclusively by stacking scourges. Whereas stacking eles to melt bosses which melt anyway makes... such a difference.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you have proof of your claim that necros are almost exclusively ran there?

> > > > >

> > > > > And if the other bosses melt anyway, why bring them up as evidence to the opness of necro?

> > > >

> > > > Here you [go](https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16731130 "go").

> > > >

> > > > And you asked, I just answered.

> > >

> > > Site itself says medium confidence level and says sample size is not to their liking and could be skewing the data.

> >

> > Sure. But all the groups I've seen ran scourges. **All** of them. Some used a Holo, but they used it as a support and their dps got dwarfed by the epi bouncing scourges anyway. Sure, you can say *this* one is anecdotal. But given that I'm actively seeking these groups, I'll take my own experience plus raidar's stats, confident or not.

>

> Still anecdotal, and I don't think either one of us would accept anecdotal evidence as fact, would we?

I'm sorry, but the evidence for scourge domination in Dhuum CM is more than clear. Being an encounter that is not played routinely, it is obvious that sample size will always be small. The data from the Feb balance patch era looks hardly different from the current era - scourge is represented two times more than all other dps classes (including the BS!) combined. Denying such facts is disingenuous.