The issue with reviving in story fights

[Warscythes.9307]

Morning, thank you for taking the time to answer some questions.

 

Not sure if this question is appropriate but it has bugged me for awhile. I think the current revive system lacks merit and does not accomplish what it sets out to do. I understand that it is implemented because ultimately you want the majority of people to beat the story. Of course it takes away urgency for the fights especially considering we can respawn indefinitely anyway; this might be ok if it actually does what it is suppose to do but I think ultimately it just frustrates everyone.

 

The issue is that if a player is unable to beat the content, then reviving him does not actually help him to actually beat the content. What it does is basically throw him at the meat grinder over and over again and slowly whittle the boss down. The player would respawn, do 2% of the boss's hp, die and repeat. I cannot imagine this to be fun at all. It takes away the tension since you literally cannot fail and it is not even fun to essentially suicide down the boss.

 

Of course there has to be something that helps the players to beat the boss. Ideally you want to help the player and make them good enough to play through the content but it is unrealistic to expect somebody to suddenly improve in 20 minutes. Have you guys considered some sort of stat buff on death system? Whereas everytime if the player dies then he gains a stacking buff that gives +5% to all stats instead? If the player dies again then he gains another stack of the buff etc etc. This way it essentially force a player to be better and it gives back a bit of tension as you technically now can still fail. Just cap the number of stacks to somewhere reasonable and I think it would be a better system than what we have now. Of course this is just an example but I believe the core issue is that whatever system that exist needs to be able to help the player to be better, even if it is artificial in this case, instead of just letting the player reviving and suicide the boss over and over again.

[Vagrant.7206]

An inverted death penalty?

 

What would prevent players from just suiciding a few times at the beginning to make their lives easier?

[Warscythes.9307]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> An inverted death penalty?

>

> What would prevent players from just suiciding a few times at the beginning to make their lives easier?

 

Because it takes time and people generally want to beat it on the first try if they can.

 

If you look at WoW/FFXIV which has similar systems, nobody actually suicides to get their stacks up. Usually people just keep going at it until the stat buffs are big enough that they can beat the encounter.

[Ardid.7203]

I like the idea and find the question interesting. But... how does this relate with lore?

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > An inverted death penalty?

> >

> > What would prevent players from just suiciding a few times at the beginning to make their lives easier?

>

> Because it takes time and people generally want to beat it on the first try if they can.

>

> If you look at WoW/FFXIV which has similar systems, nobody actually suicides to get their stacks up. Usually people just keep going at it until the stat buffs are big enough that they can beat the encounter.

 

Wait, unless it changed recently WoW doesn't give you any bonus for dying. Your equipment gets damaged, it costs money to repair, you lose all buffs, and you either have to run to your corpse in order to revive or take significant penalties for 10 minutes by reviving at a spirit healer.

 

Dunno about FFXIV as I never played that.

[joneirikb.7506]

Question, how would gaining bonus stats help a player "learn" better than the downed state? Don't disagree, just don't see how free stats would help any more or less.

[DarthFurby.3970]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > An inverted death penalty?

> > >

> > > What would prevent players from just suiciding a few times at the beginning to make their lives easier?

> >

> > Because it takes time and people generally want to beat it on the first try if they can.

> >

> > If you look at WoW/FFXIV which has similar systems, nobody actually suicides to get their stacks up. Usually people just keep going at it until the stat buffs are big enough that they can beat the encounter.

>

> Wait, unless it changed recently WoW doesn't give you any bonus for dying. Your equipment gets damaged, it costs money to repair, you lose all buffs, and you either have to run to your corpse in order to revive or take significant penalties for 10 minutes by reviving at a spirit healer.

>

> Dunno about FFXIV as I never played that.

 

Been awhile since I played realm reborn but as memory serves it was also a gear break down penalty, and this site states the same : http://orcz.com/FFXIV_ARR:_Death_Penalty

 

Not quite sure where OP got the whole buff on death system, nor do I think it encourages you to survive encounters and discourages dying; if anything the opposite.

[RoseofGilead.8907]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > An inverted death penalty?

> > >

> > > What would prevent players from just suiciding a few times at the beginning to make their lives easier?

> >

> > Because it takes time and people generally want to beat it on the first try if they can.

> >

> > If you look at WoW/FFXIV which has similar systems, nobody actually suicides to get their stacks up. Usually people just keep going at it until the stat buffs are big enough that they can beat the encounter.

>

> Wait, unless it changed recently WoW doesn't give you any bonus for dying. Your equipment gets damaged, it costs money to repair, you lose all buffs, and you either have to run to your corpse in order to revive or take significant penalties for 10 minutes by reviving at a spirit healer.

 

There's a buff called Determined that is applied to LFR groups that wipe. You can get up to 10 stacks of it, and each stack increases your outgoing damage by 5%, increases your received healing by 5%, and increases your health by 5%. But yeah, it's only used in LFR groups. I'm not sure if something similar would be good for GW2, honestly.

[Pifil.5193]

> @"RoseofGilead.8907" said:

> > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > An inverted death penalty?

> > > >

> > > > What would prevent players from just suiciding a few times at the beginning to make their lives easier?

> > >

> > > Because it takes time and people generally want to beat it on the first try if they can.

> > >

> > > If you look at WoW/FFXIV which has similar systems, nobody actually suicides to get their stacks up. Usually people just keep going at it until the stat buffs are big enough that they can beat the encounter.

> >

> > Wait, unless it changed recently WoW doesn't give you any bonus for dying. Your equipment gets damaged, it costs money to repair, you lose all buffs, and you either have to run to your corpse in order to revive or take significant penalties for 10 minutes by reviving at a spirit healer.

>

> There's a buff called Determined that is applied to LFR groups that wipe. You can get up to 10 stacks of it, and each stack increases your outgoing damage by 5%, increases your received healing by 5%, and increases your health by 5%. But yeah, it's only used in LFR groups. I'm not sure if something similar would be good for GW2, honestly.

 

Oh OK, thanks, I didn't know that, I've never done any LFR content in WoW.

[Zaklex.6308]

Actually a player can get better in 20 minutes...if they take the time to just pay attention to the mechanics and listen to the NPC's and/or Dragon Watch members there, they will give you hints on what you need to do to defeat most bosses in story instances.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> I like the idea and find the question interesting. But... how does this relate with lore?

 

It doesn't as I didn't realize this session is about lore only; too late now though.

 

> @"RoseofGilead.8907" said:

> > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > An inverted death penalty?

> > > >

> > > > What would prevent players from just suiciding a few times at the beginning to make their lives easier?

> > >

> > > Because it takes time and people generally want to beat it on the first try if they can.

> > >

> > > If you look at WoW/FFXIV which has similar systems, nobody actually suicides to get their stacks up. Usually people just keep going at it until the stat buffs are big enough that they can beat the encounter.

> >

> > Wait, unless it changed recently WoW doesn't give you any bonus for dying. Your equipment gets damaged, it costs money to repair, you lose all buffs, and you either have to run to your corpse in order to revive or take significant penalties for 10 minutes by reviving at a spirit healer.

>

> There's a buff called Determined that is applied to LFR groups that wipe. You can get up to 10 stacks of it, and each stack increases your outgoing damage by 5%, increases your received healing by 5%, and increases your health by 5%. But yeah, it's only used in LFR groups. I'm not sure if something similar would be good for GW2, honestly.

 

Thank you for the confirmation, I was busy and couldn't reply at the time.

 

I think would be good only for the story boss instances, not to raids. I only gave those as an example.

 

Literally every single LS release we see at least one thread commenting how boss ABC is completely unfair with too many particle effects and how a story should be able to be completed by everyone etc etc. Those are the people who need some sort of catch up mechanism. I think the current system only currently just reviving them does not help them to complete the encounter all since they are not really getting better. This is something for those people who truly cannot grasp the fundamentals of the game. It literally makes them better by giving them better stats. Yes it is completely useless for people who know how combat/build works and will figure it out after a couple tries, but both the revive and this system is not designed for them.

 

Ideally I suppose a difficulty mode can probably work too however that is probably a lot more work than just slap on a simple stat buff. The release is slow enough as it is, slowing it down even further would be a terrible idea.

[Linken.6345]

Oh I read it as the npc got a stat buff, yea that would make people try to beat it first try or keep failing and restarting said instance instead.

 

Dont see how giving the player a stat buff would make him not die untill max stacks then breeze through content.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Ore simple anet makes every encounter super easy 2 health on boss people dont care about difficulty its story its supposed to be easy enough too autoattack to victory i miss those days XD

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm a fan of Dark Souls or Cuphead rules.. If you die, the fight resets, and you are warped back to just before you engaged the boss. All non-completed achievements are reset, for convenience sake. Personally, I prefer to start a fight over if I die over having an NPC rez me, because then it sort of cheapens the thrill. Like, finding out your bike has training wheels, and all of the riding you've done so far is just a condescending form of "pretend." Just let me fail and try again until I get it.

 

The difficulty of the content is itself the content. When we say "git gud," it isn't just to show off. Self-improvement can be a fulfilling and fruitful journey. When Markiplier finally completed Getting Over It, he had a spiritual moment. We are trying to share this moment, but to get to the top of the metaphorical mountain you need a mountain to climb.

[Lord Kreegan.8123]

It's not always a question of whether a player "is good enough to play through the content"... face it, ANet is clueless about balance. Many fights are geared towards ranged classes or very much geared against melee classes. Many fights are MUCH easier with pet classes.

I have one of each of the nine characters, all level 80, and most have completed their elite specializations. All are geared with full exotics and some Ascended jewelry. I have found that some of the classes, in particular my warrior, guardian, and thief, are incompetent boobs in most of the various story missions.

I went through the main story with my hunter/druid (only a hunter at the time) and had no real difficulties. I subsequently tried to follow that character with my warrior (who, incidentally, had much better gear than my hunter at the time). At one point near the end of the story, the player has to make a decision whether to take a land, air, or sea route towards the last battle. For a little variation in game play, I picked a route that led to a fight with an "Elite Spider Lord" (don't remember his real title) when I was playing my warrior, a strictly melee character at the time, through the story.

And found it impossible to proceed. No ranged capability? No chance in Hades of beating that phase of the story. My hunter main character had breezed through that phase of the story.

Another player commented here in the forum that the fight hadn't been "tuned" by ANet... nice excuse, but personally, having played through almost all fights with multiple characters, I don't think any fights have been tuned by ANet.

I'm currently following my thief character (who had his elite specialization) through the PoF story with my hunter/druid main character. The hunter/druid is breezing through fights in which the thief character continually died; that thief is currently stuck fighting Iberu and I'm convinced there is no chance in Hades, even with his exotic level 80 short bow with the 900+ damage stats, of that thief ever getting past that phase... so I'll have to wait for my hunter/druid to get to that same phase of the story. It shouldn't have to be that way...

My guardian/dragonhunter (who has got really good gear) failed a dozen times trying to finish the HoT story line, but another player teamed up with me (just yesterday, in fact) to beat Mordemoth. My thanks to him/her... I still died against Eir and against the dragon. The guardian had a bow, but the guardian bow, even at 900+ DPS, couldn't do what was needed because the skills for a guardian with a bow actually SUCK. The other player (a Mesmer, if I remember right) had no problems, although he/she acknowledged that he/she had died previously going solo... something about a glitch (which doesn't surprise me; there are LOTS of glitches in ANet's stuff).

Character classes that don't have the DPS, don't have the natural ranged capability, don't have the pets, and aren't built to take on these various bosses -- those with the constant AoE, constant knockdowns and stuns, ridiculous VFX on-screen such that you can't even see your mouse pointer much less critical information like the Awakened being drained during the Iberu fight, continuous respawn of adds, and impossible situations (for instance, less time between visual cues and what you need to actually move a finger on your keyboard to do a dodge) -- are screwed.

I've said it before in many posts, ANet doesn't have a clue about level design. They're all about gimmickry like Mario Brothers jumping puzzles, vertical mazes, and silly ass puzzles, but they don't have a clue about balance.

 

Okay, cue the white knights and elitists who kill ten champions at once with both hands tied behind their backs... because anyone who says ANet doesn't do a good job just isn't a good enough player, right?

[Linken.6345]

Why would you not bring a longbow or a rifle as second weapon set as warrior or in your bag for when you need to take a step back and range?

[LucianDK.8615]

IF people struggle so badly, they should remember they can bring friends to carry them.

[MarshallLaw.9260]

> @"Warscythes.9307"

Personal story content has never been hard enough to warrant this. If a player is stuck at a certain stage, they are either not familiar with combat mechanics of their class, under-geared or simply need some help.

If you are finding the basic fight difficult, check your gear and build are suitable - don't expect to be able to survive in a lvl80 zone with lvl15 _Fine_ gear. If build and gear are in order, it's your combat which needs work. If you cannot improve, ask friend for help.

After finishing the regular PoF story path, I went back to complete some of the chapter achievements and found that there was one where I couldn't complete on my own (_Keen Eye_ achievement https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hallowed_Ground_(story)), so I just requested assistance from a friend in my guild.

 

The idea that making something easier and dumbing it down is a good way "help people improve" is just not viable. Too many players would just not put any effort in - "why should I try at all if in 30 re-spawns time this will be much easier?" and this (I'm guessing) is not how devs want the game played.

[Danikat.8537]

I don't understand how being given a 5% buff to all stats if you die forces a player to be better. It sounds like exactly the opposite - each time you die you get stronger and therefore the fight gets easier, until either you can complete it by using the same tactics that previously got you killed or you reach the buff cap and you're still dying and need to find another option.

 

Whereas the system we have now skips straight to the 'you need to find another option' phase, which IMO is the point where players have the opportunity to review what went wrong and look for ways to improve, or at least do things differently.

 

I have to admit I'm one of the people who typically jumps straight into a fight using the same skills in the same way I always do and only look for other things to do if it's _really_ obvious, if the fight is taking absolutely ages or if I die. That "You have been defeated. Do you want to revive at a checkpoint?" message tells me to stop and think about what I did. Even if the boss hasn't reset to full health (which they often do) I'm not likely to rush straight back in unless they were almost dead. Instead I'll stop, check the chat box for instructions from the NPCs which I missed because I play with the sound off and chat bubbles are useless if they're not right in front of you, read the info on the bosses buffs (if any) which I can't read during combat and think through what they did and what I did and what might work better.

 

If I was given a buff I might be tempted to just try the same thing again and hope the extra stats are enough to make it work (especially if I was wearing the boss down before) and with some fights I would absolutely look for a way to kill myself and build up the buff right at the start - the Spider Lord guarding the lighthouse in the Stealing Light chapter of the personal story for example.

[Udolpho.1209]

> @"Warscythes.9307" said:

 

> The issue is that if a player is unable to beat the content, then reviving him does not actually help him to actually beat the content. What it does is basically throw him at the meat grinder over and over again and slowly whittle the boss down. The player would respawn, do 2% of the boss's hp, die and repeat. I cannot imagine this to be fun at all. It takes away the tension since you literally cannot fail and it is not even fun to essentially suicide down the boss.

 

This is why I am always behind doing the stories. I'd love to do the STORY... but sometimes the frustration isn't worth it. I haven't done any LW4, in favor of things that are actually fun (for me). I'd like to have the story and go to new zones, but I don't want long, drawn out, futile, frustrating content that frequently crashes.

 

I'm happy that some people find the story easy, that's cool. I don't want other content made easier... just the story, which should be about the story and plot. I also get that many people wouldn't like that or agree with me. But I'd enjoy an easy mode option, which does exactly what the OP suggested, for those who just want to enjoy the story. Maybe you choose at the start of the story, or you're asked the first time you die. Reduce or eliminate the achievement options for fairness, or add new achievements for not dying during each long fight.

 

I've been playing since launch... chances are, I'm not going to suddenly get a whole lot better during a single fight.

 

[battledrone.8315]

> @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > @"Warscythes.9307"

> Personal story content has never been hard enough to warrant this. If a player is stuck at a certain stage, they are either not familiar with combat mechanics of their class, under-geared or simply need some help.

> If you are finding the basic fight difficult, check your gear and build are suitable - don't expect to be able to survive in a lvl80 zone with lvl15 _Fine_ gear. If build and gear are in order, it's your combat which needs work. If you cannot improve, ask friend for help.

> After finishing the regular PoF story path, I went back to complete some of the chapter achievements and found that there was one where I couldn't complete on my own (_Keen Eye_ achievement https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hallowed_Ground_(story)), so I just requested assistance from a friend in my guild.

>

> The idea that making something easier and dumbing it down is a good way "help people improve" is just not viable. Too many players would just not put any effort in - "why should I try at all if in 30 re-spawns time this will be much easier?" and this (I'm guessing) is not how devs want the game played.

 

the problem with this philosophy is, that youre basically making content for other players, than those who bought the game

that is only good , if you didnt like the game in the first place

if i wanted to play a hardcore game, i would had bought one

[jojorne.2175]

wait, don't forget that you die if you [rally](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rally "rally") alot and if you die the boss resets.

also that npcs rally (remove downed state), they don't revive dead players...

[MarshallLaw.9260]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > > @"Warscythes.9307"

> > Personal story content has never been hard enough to warrant this. If a player is stuck at a certain stage, they are either not familiar with combat mechanics of their class, under-geared or simply need some help.

> > If you are finding the basic fight difficult, check your gear and build are suitable - don't expect to be able to survive in a lvl80 zone with lvl15 _Fine_ gear. If build and gear are in order, it's your combat which needs work. If you cannot improve, ask friend for help.

> > After finishing the regular PoF story path, I went back to complete some of the chapter achievements and found that there was one where I couldn't complete on my own (_Keen Eye_ achievement https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hallowed_Ground_(story)), so I just requested assistance from a friend in my guild.

> >

> > The idea that making something easier and dumbing it down is a good way "help people improve" is just not viable. Too many players would just not put any effort in - "why should I try at all if in 30 re-spawns time this will be much easier?" and this (I'm guessing) is not how devs want the game played.

>

> the problem with this philosophy is, that youre basically making content for other players, than those who bought the game

> that is only good , if you didnt like the game in the first place

> if i wanted to play a hardcore game, i would had bought one

 

Firstly, GW2 is far from "hardcore", it's one of the most casual friendly games and although the higher-end content requires more dedication, practice and experience, the OW and story content is relatively easy. Other MMOs load up your skill bar with 40-50 skills, GW2 has 15 at most (+5 for second weapon set and +10 for aquatic sets - but at any one time you only have a max of 15 skills I believe)

I'm guessing people having trouble with story instances are those who bought an expansion, took the lvl80 boost and jumped into PoF/HoT straight away. The game was never designed for this as the early levels help teach new players how their class functions to a certain degree. Unfortunately the alure of mounts/gliders is too great, so you often have this scenario.

Dumbing down the level80 part of the game to make it suitable for brand new players is a horrible idea. It would lead to people getting bored more quickly and hurt the playerbase.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > > > @"Warscythes.9307"

> > > Personal story content has never been hard enough to warrant this. If a player is stuck at a certain stage, they are either not familiar with combat mechanics of their class, under-geared or simply need some help.

> > > If you are finding the basic fight difficult, check your gear and build are suitable - don't expect to be able to survive in a lvl80 zone with lvl15 _Fine_ gear. If build and gear are in order, it's your combat which needs work. If you cannot improve, ask friend for help.

> > > After finishing the regular PoF story path, I went back to complete some of the chapter achievements and found that there was one where I couldn't complete on my own (_Keen Eye_ achievement https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hallowed_Ground_(story)), so I just requested assistance from a friend in my guild.

> > >

> > > The idea that making something easier and dumbing it down is a good way "help people improve" is just not viable. Too many players would just not put any effort in - "why should I try at all if in 30 re-spawns time this will be much easier?" and this (I'm guessing) is not how devs want the game played.

> >

> > the problem with this philosophy is, that youre basically making content for other players, than those who bought the game

> > that is only good , if you didnt like the game in the first place

> > if i wanted to play a hardcore game, i would had bought one

>

> Firstly, GW2 is far from "hardcore", it's one of the most casual friendly games and although the higher-end content requires more dedication, practice and experience, the OW and story content is relatively easy. Other MMOs load up your skill bar with 40-50 skills, GW2 has 15 at most (+5 for second weapon set and +10 for aquatic sets - but at any one time you only have a max of 15 skills I believe)

> I'm guessing people having trouble with story instances are those who bought an expansion, took the lvl80 boost and jumped into PoF/HoT straight away. The game was never designed for this as the early levels help teach new players how their class functions to a certain degree. Unfortunately the alure of mounts/gliders is too great, so you often have this scenario.

> Dumbing down the level80 part of the game to make it suitable for brand new players is a horrible idea. It would lead to people getting bored more quickly and hurt the playerbase.

 

so getting bored, and leaving AFTER you played the content is worse , than quitting before?

and if they were the least interested in PLAYERBASE, dont you think they would have tried to keep more of the millions of players they had from start?

story and open world should be for everybody, making it too hard will just make people quit and play something else

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> story and open world should be for everybody, making it too hard will just make people quit and play something else

 

I'm going to change one word in that sentence. Tell me if you think it becomes more or less true...

 

"story and open world should be for everybody, making it too **easy** will just make people quit and play something else"

 

If you make it too hard, the less focussed players will become frustrated and quit, but if you make it too easy, the more focussed players will become bored and quit. Not the hard-core raiders or PvP gods, but the people who like to play through stories and have the climactic fights be, well, climactic.

 

Perhaps all I'm saying is that you CANNOT make any one piece of the game "for everybody". Despite the complaints about it (common to many games), the writing for the main story is NOT desperately bad (I quite like most of it, in fact). There are places where it has unwarranted continuity breaks (e.g. when a Sylvari player goes to see the Pale Tree in the Claw Island segment of the core PS, and the Pale Tree talks to the character in the same phrasing she uses with non-Sylvari), but all stories have that. For sure not everyone plays an MMORPG for its story/stories (some load up a story-heavy MMORPG like SWTOR or even GW2 and jump straight into PvP of some sort and never, ever touch even one word of story ever after), but many do, and they have a wide, wide range of skill at learning to play. Some people, frankly, suck at playing, and suck at learning to play better, and there's relatively little you can do for them without inducing the more skilled to die of boredom.

 

The most recent major expansion of SWTOR, "Knights of the Eternal Throne," includes a fairly serious, slightly mechanicky fight against one of the major antagonists. It's not mechanicky like the Glint's Lair segment of LS2 is, with the faffing about picking up colours, transferring fragility, and all that stuff, but it isn't *just* spank-and-tank. I found it a bit heavy going until I "connected" to the mechanics, at which point it became fairly straightforward. It turns out that it's a lot closer to just spank-and-tank than you might at first think.

 

And of course the SWTOR forums are littered with the corpses of threads where someone hit that fight and bounced, and posted a vitriolic complaint about impossible fights in main-line story content. In almost every case, the ones who just ask for help get useful advice, and the ones who post bile about it being impossible get mocked more or less politely by players who are, evidently, "impossibilists", capable of doing the impossible, i.e. beating the fight.