Nimon.7840 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Lol. I see as much revenants these days as I see necros in zerg. Also mesmers are used a lot. This 600range pull is way to strong for sieges. Pulling down enemies of walls, that don't even stand anywhere near the edge. Sure every group still needs a guard, so we need to nerf firebrand as well because too much heal and boon output. Then nerf spellbreakers. Every good zerg tries to play at least 2. And they can just walk up into the enemy zerg, lay down their bubble and move out almost unharmed. And if you focus them, the other zerg will just kill you because you just wasted a lot of cooldowns. Then we can nerf scourge. Make those shades a little bit smaller maybe to 240 radius. Then you need to nerf that big badass meteor of ele. And and and and and and and and and and...... There won't be an end to this. And I don't want to have ball meta back. That was really annoying and much easier to play (for the commander) than pirate ship. Right now it's a pretty good situation. Pirate ship works, and balling works sometimes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylosi.6503 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > Every class is different, and not every one can be optimal for each gamemode... The difference is if we take PvP for example they have always made at least an effort in regard to class balance and that even when a class is not optimal it is usually at least viable, that the difference in performance between classes is not that huge, they also for the most part eventually nerf over performing classes. Where as for WvW for the most part they simply don't bother and the difference between classes both in performance and player usage can be absolutely massive for literally years at a time (even the entire game in some cases). > @"X T D.6458" said: > One class might be bad for zerging, but will excel at roaming/dueling. Except it doesn't really work like that, for small groups all classes have generally been viable, the only restriction has been certain classes need certain comps to work well. Then for roaming, thief & mes have generally been broken OP, you could argue a class like necro lacks when solo roaming and how good the rest have been has been largely down to the ebb and flow of balance, so for instance DH on a class that was used in vast numbers in zergs was no worse at roaming than scrapper (once it got nerfed) a class considered useless for zergs or if you look at mes which has permanently been one of the best roamers/duellers, whilst still always having a place in zergs/guild raids, so has basically done better in both aspects than classes like engy, ranger. Balance in WvW has always been an absolute joke, because basically they don't meaningfully design or balance for WvW, that is the reality, which is why this thread is pointless and shows a level of delusion from any player who isn't a newbie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > as a mainly thief and roamer i think scourge is super weak, still wonder why i run into so many of them while roaming. they become annoying if they got a babysitter because downstate + rez trait is a little OP when you outnumber your opponent, but thats for any class. > > they got low chance to win a fight while roaming so i am ok with them dealing half as much damage as my ele in a zerg fight, while stripping boons to boost my damage. > > the scourges you encounter alone are mist likeley zerg player that are either running to their zerg or just currently have no zerg available and dont know which other class to play in wvw > thief has enough mobility to get in and out vefore the scourge can apply his condis and thus wins by kiting > anyways if you read the post youd know its not about roaming the op was talking about, its about zerging and i want to see you killing scourges in a zerg. > im a roamer myself but i dont think anyone gives a kitten about balancing thise smallscale fights, zergs impact alot more ppl than roaming and this should be balanced. nobody cares that you as a thief can easily kill a single scourge. they are a problem for zergfights and thats what they should be balanced for, not for roaming. i did read it. still not sure if he was talking about zergfights or not, therefore i mentioned roaming and zergfights in the post you quoted. if scourges were dealing more damage then eles and revs while stripping boons and being more tanky, that would be an issue. but they are doing way less damage then a good weaver/rev, especially when they are on tanky stats like trailblaizer or dire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > Scourge might be strong, but w/o it we go back to HoT style boonball meta, and....kitten that crap. > > Here’s an idea, let’s go back to pre specialisation where boon (and skill) spam wasn’t as big an issue, ofc with current stab not the no ICD CC removal stab we had that made for pirate ships. Remove range the 900 range from scourges wich is being exploited by some players, make them a close combat defnsive/punishive spammer and make their stuff work in wider short cones.... If Anet wants to make a class a spammer, it ineeds to be balanced trough how the casting skills affect the field, game has already to much AOE circles, and probably more skills instead of cirles should be changed to "arc of effect" so with range interval between caster and effect zone rather than AOE spam things, this would make game more skilled i think. Maybe reduce the AOE spam overall, and increase elementalist AOE circle cap....???? Anet got confused in making game super dumb with VS make game interesting fun where players need actually to know how to use their skills rather than just spam.. cause it will do "alot of damage gameplay mentality". > @"X T D.6458" said: > > @"jaif.3518" said: > > > @"MadBomber.3719" said: > > > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > > > Fb, sb and scourge are all super over represented right now. > > > > > > tbf GWEN comps were always the most represented classes in WvW zerging. not that scourge isn't broken just that it's always been dominant in representation > > > > So 4 of the 8 classes (no rev at the time) for zergs. Thieves, Mesmers, and Rangers roamed, with some warriors as well. One or two mesmers per zerg. Engineers were pointless. Various odd-ball roamers used by skilled players (burn guard, d/d ele, etc). > > > > It actually wasn't bad. I'd love to see every class have a good zerg role, but honestly, it wasn't bad at the start. Now? Like the picture says, 50%+scourges, and honestly, the more the better. > > > > -Jeff > > Every class is different, and not every one can be optimal for each gamemode and type of playstyle because they require different things. One class might be bad for zerging, but will excel at roaming/dueling. **The meta shifts over time have created a need for more aoe ranged damage, and more support builds. Therefore certain classes will be left out because they either dont perform these roles, or are outshined by other classes.** > > Necro has essentially remained the same in its purpose in WvW. The bolded text, that's just a bad design..... a really very bad one cause that's actually an excuse to keep the bad gameplay on range spam vs melee combat gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysdude.3824 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Deleted to save Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Rysdude.3824" said: > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > boon groups are in.l because resist to chill replaced imob. necros are needed more than ever now. > > > > i run a boon comp. we rarely get killed now. you on t2 can vouch on this. if you dont got scourge, you aint gonna stop my zerg. > > > > and we run only 1 scourge per party, lile 1 fb in a party > > Lol Is that for a 50 vs 10 GvG? Ive been a part of zedds zergs both on CD and when they bandwagoned to JQ. And there are an abundance of scourges. Stop fronting. > Usually 70% (mor or less) of every comp in small scale and large scale are made of scourges mainly. IF 1 side is scourging more than the adversary the adversary will pull of more scourges and numbers, zerg gameplay is flawd to much dependant of scourge stacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > as a mainly thief and roamer i think scourge is super weak, still wonder why i run into so many of them while roaming. they become annoying if they got a babysitter because downstate + rez trait is a little OP when you outnumber your opponent, but thats for any class. > > > they got low chance to win a fight while roaming so i am ok with them dealing half as much damage as my ele in a zerg fight, while stripping boons to boost my damage. > > > > the scourges you encounter alone are mist likeley zerg player that are either running to their zerg or just currently have no zerg available and dont know which other class to play in wvw > > thief has enough mobility to get in and out vefore the scourge can apply his condis and thus wins by kiting > > anyways if you read the post youd know its not about roaming the op was talking about, its about zerging and i want to see you killing scourges in a zerg. > > im a roamer myself but i dont think anyone gives a kitten about balancing thise smallscale fights, zergs impact alot more ppl than roaming and this should be balanced. nobody cares that you as a thief can easily kill a single scourge. they are a problem for zergfights and thats what they should be balanced for, not for roaming. > > i did read it. still not sure if he was talking about zergfights or not, therefore i mentioned roaming and zergfights in the post you quoted. if scourges were dealing more damage then eles and revs while stripping boons and being more tanky, that would be an issue. but they are doing way less damage then a good weaver/rev, especially when they are on tanky stats like trailblaizer or dire. yea the point is that you need skill to do more dmg, scourges can just plaster an open space with aoe and not only are they still dealing lots of dmg, they also corrupt boons en masse and they offer barriers as support, revs and ele have to be played almost only as dmg spec without offering much else abd tbh it was quite clear that he was talkig about zerg fighting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > as a mainly thief and roamer i think scourge is super weak, still wonder why i run into so many of them while roaming. they become annoying if they got a babysitter because downstate + rez trait is a little OP when you outnumber your opponent, but thats for any class. > > > > they got low chance to win a fight while roaming so i am ok with them dealing half as much damage as my ele in a zerg fight, while stripping boons to boost my damage. > > > > > > the scourges you encounter alone are mist likeley zerg player that are either running to their zerg or just currently have no zerg available and dont know which other class to play in wvw > > > thief has enough mobility to get in and out vefore the scourge can apply his condis and thus wins by kiting > > > anyways if you read the post youd know its not about roaming the op was talking about, its about zerging and i want to see you killing scourges in a zerg. > > > im a roamer myself but i dont think anyone gives a kitten about balancing thise smallscale fights, zergs impact alot more ppl than roaming and this should be balanced. nobody cares that you as a thief can easily kill a single scourge. they are a problem for zergfights and thats what they should be balanced for, not for roaming. > > > > i did read it. still not sure if he was talking about zergfights or not, therefore i mentioned roaming and zergfights in the post you quoted. if scourges were dealing more damage then eles and revs while stripping boons and being more tanky, that would be an issue. but they are doing way less damage then a good weaver/rev, especially when they are on tanky stats like trailblaizer or dire. > > yea the point is that you need skill to do more dmg, scourges can just plaster an open space with aoe and not only are they still dealing lots of dmg, they also corrupt boons en masse and they offer barriers as support, revs and ele have to be played almost only as dmg spec without offering much else > > abd tbh it was quite clear that he was talkig about zerg fighting only because its easy to play doesnt mean it has to be weak. while scourge does ontop of damage corrupts and barriers, they pay for that in dealing less damage, thats how it should be. if they were dealing damage close to rev/ele that would be an issue, but as it is their damage is not an issue. their corrupt is needed to avoid that boring boonball meta and their barrier they need to survive as they have no blocks or evades on skills aswell as terrible mobility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > as a mainly thief and roamer i think scourge is super weak, still wonder why i run into so many of them while roaming. they become annoying if they got a babysitter because downstate + rez trait is a little OP when you outnumber your opponent, but thats for any class. > > > > > they got low chance to win a fight while roaming so i am ok with them dealing half as much damage as my ele in a zerg fight, while stripping boons to boost my damage. > > > > > > > > the scourges you encounter alone are mist likeley zerg player that are either running to their zerg or just currently have no zerg available and dont know which other class to play in wvw > > > > thief has enough mobility to get in and out vefore the scourge can apply his condis and thus wins by kiting > > > > anyways if you read the post youd know its not about roaming the op was talking about, its about zerging and i want to see you killing scourges in a zerg. > > > > im a roamer myself but i dont think anyone gives a kitten about balancing thise smallscale fights, zergs impact alot more ppl than roaming and this should be balanced. nobody cares that you as a thief can easily kill a single scourge. they are a problem for zergfights and thats what they should be balanced for, not for roaming. > > > > > > i did read it. still not sure if he was talking about zergfights or not, therefore i mentioned roaming and zergfights in the post you quoted. if scourges were dealing more damage then eles and revs while stripping boons and being more tanky, that would be an issue. but they are doing way less damage then a good weaver/rev, especially when they are on tanky stats like trailblaizer or dire. > > > > yea the point is that you need skill to do more dmg, scourges can just plaster an open space with aoe and not only are they still dealing lots of dmg, they also corrupt boons en masse and they offer barriers as support, revs and ele have to be played almost only as dmg spec without offering much else > > > > abd tbh it was quite clear that he was talkig about zerg fighting > > only because its easy to play doesnt mean it has to be weak. while scourge does ontop of damage corrupts and barriers, they pay for that in dealing less damage, thats how it should be. if they were dealing damage close to rev/ele that would be an issue, but as it is their damage is not an issue. their corrupt is needed to avoid that boring boonball meta and their barrier they need to survive as they have no blocks or evades on skills aswell as terrible mobility i dont say that it has to be weak, its just simply overtuned, do you even fight in zergs? all your posts ive seen so far are about roaming tbh boonball meta was alot more exciting than those boring pirateships, the group that tries to push has to go through so many aoes that most of the time they will just lose if they didnt kill enough enemies whilst pirateshipping before their push. have you played a melee class recently? standing in a zerg watching as spells and aoes fly around, just waiting for a single push where you either win or die. thats the most boring thing ever scourges with all they give are just way too strong in withstanding a melee push, ripping all those boons, giving conditions and boosting your zerg with 10k barriers, even laying their elites into the pushing enemy while pushing they arent as effective as in the defensive position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > as a mainly thief and roamer i think scourge is super weak, still wonder why i run into so many of them while roaming. they become annoying if they got a babysitter because downstate + rez trait is a little OP when you outnumber your opponent, but thats for any class. > > > > > > they got low chance to win a fight while roaming so i am ok with them dealing half as much damage as my ele in a zerg fight, while stripping boons to boost my damage. > > > > > > > > > > the scourges you encounter alone are mist likeley zerg player that are either running to their zerg or just currently have no zerg available and dont know which other class to play in wvw > > > > > thief has enough mobility to get in and out vefore the scourge can apply his condis and thus wins by kiting > > > > > anyways if you read the post youd know its not about roaming the op was talking about, its about zerging and i want to see you killing scourges in a zerg. > > > > > im a roamer myself but i dont think anyone gives a kitten about balancing thise smallscale fights, zergs impact alot more ppl than roaming and this should be balanced. nobody cares that you as a thief can easily kill a single scourge. they are a problem for zergfights and thats what they should be balanced for, not for roaming. > > > > > > > > i did read it. still not sure if he was talking about zergfights or not, therefore i mentioned roaming and zergfights in the post you quoted. if scourges were dealing more damage then eles and revs while stripping boons and being more tanky, that would be an issue. but they are doing way less damage then a good weaver/rev, especially when they are on tanky stats like trailblaizer or dire. > > > > > > yea the point is that you need skill to do more dmg, scourges can just plaster an open space with aoe and not only are they still dealing lots of dmg, they also corrupt boons en masse and they offer barriers as support, revs and ele have to be played almost only as dmg spec without offering much else > > > > > > abd tbh it was quite clear that he was talkig about zerg fighting > > > > only because its easy to play doesnt mean it has to be weak. while scourge does ontop of damage corrupts and barriers, they pay for that in dealing less damage, thats how it should be. if they were dealing damage close to rev/ele that would be an issue, but as it is their damage is not an issue. their corrupt is needed to avoid that boring boonball meta and their barrier they need to survive as they have no blocks or evades on skills aswell as terrible mobility > > i dont say that it has to be weak, its just simply overtuned, do you even fight in zergs? all your posts ive seen so far are about roaming > tbh boonball meta was alot more exciting than those boring pirateships, the group that tries to push has to go through so many aoes that most of the time they will just lose if they didnt kill enough enemies whilst pirateshipping before their push. have you played a melee class recently? standing in a zerg watching as spells and aoes fly around, just waiting for a single push where you either win or die. thats the most boring thing ever > scourges with all they give are just way too strong in withstanding a melee push, ripping all those boons, giving conditions and boosting your zerg with 10k barriers, even laying their elites into the pushing enemy > while pushing they arent as effective as in the defensive position i do play in zergs regularly, but i roam more. while zerging i mostly play ele not my main, so i dont care as much about it. i havent played a melee recently as in current meta for a rather bad pug zerg a good ele will carry more then a good supporter (or at least with ele you still can ensure kills even if you wipe, with a supporter not :D ) and i never liked playing warrior so that one would not be an option. while pushing their opponents walk out of their AoE, defensive they often walk right into them. melee pushes are only denied by the amount of corrupt, because corrupts and boons are spammed and right now you cannot spamm boons fast enough to not care about corrupts. if corrupts were nerfed to a point you can melee push again, at that point you wont be able to get the boons off the zerg. this will result in extremely low power damage and pretty much no condi damage cause of resistance. so you will not generate many downstates, good luck finishing any of those with so many running res traits or skills like merciful intervention. right now we at least do get kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysteriax.6049 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 @"MUDse.7623" Then start tuning down the boonspam after dealing with scourge. As a FB player I'd be fine with nerfs to my healing and some boot output (protection, resistance for example) if Scourge was being nerfed as well. How about we make it so combo fields are relevant again to stack boons ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Mysteriax.6049" said: > @"MUDse.7623" Then start tuning down the boonspam after dealing with scourge. As a FB player I'd be fine with nerfs to my healing and some boot output (protection, resistance for example) if Scourge was being nerfed as well. How about we make it so combo fields are relevant again to stack boons ^^ the issue with nerfing one class at a time is that it will cause serious balance issues for everyone till all classes are on the balance level you aim to achieve. so people will rage alot before we reach it wich may cause over nerfing or buffing of stuff. if boon spamm and corrupt are to be nerfed, they have to be nerfed together in one patch. as for combo fields, they really are underused - think the only one used often atm is smoke for stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > as a mainly thief and roamer i think scourge is super weak, still wonder why i run into so many of them while roaming. they become annoying if they got a babysitter because downstate + rez trait is a little OP when you outnumber your opponent, but thats for any class. > > > > > > > they got low chance to win a fight while roaming so i am ok with them dealing half as much damage as my ele in a zerg fight, while stripping boons to boost my damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > the scourges you encounter alone are mist likeley zerg player that are either running to their zerg or just currently have no zerg available and dont know which other class to play in wvw > > > > > > thief has enough mobility to get in and out vefore the scourge can apply his condis and thus wins by kiting > > > > > > anyways if you read the post youd know its not about roaming the op was talking about, its about zerging and i want to see you killing scourges in a zerg. > > > > > > im a roamer myself but i dont think anyone gives a kitten about balancing thise smallscale fights, zergs impact alot more ppl than roaming and this should be balanced. nobody cares that you as a thief can easily kill a single scourge. they are a problem for zergfights and thats what they should be balanced for, not for roaming. > > > > > > > > > > i did read it. still not sure if he was talking about zergfights or not, therefore i mentioned roaming and zergfights in the post you quoted. if scourges were dealing more damage then eles and revs while stripping boons and being more tanky, that would be an issue. but they are doing way less damage then a good weaver/rev, especially when they are on tanky stats like trailblaizer or dire. > > > > > > > > yea the point is that you need skill to do more dmg, scourges can just plaster an open space with aoe and not only are they still dealing lots of dmg, they also corrupt boons en masse and they offer barriers as support, revs and ele have to be played almost only as dmg spec without offering much else > > > > > > > > abd tbh it was quite clear that he was talkig about zerg fighting > > > > > > only because its easy to play doesnt mean it has to be weak. while scourge does ontop of damage corrupts and barriers, they pay for that in dealing less damage, thats how it should be. if they were dealing damage close to rev/ele that would be an issue, but as it is their damage is not an issue. their corrupt is needed to avoid that boring boonball meta and their barrier they need to survive as they have no blocks or evades on skills aswell as terrible mobility > > > > i dont say that it has to be weak, its just simply overtuned, do you even fight in zergs? all your posts ive seen so far are about roaming > > tbh boonball meta was alot more exciting than those boring pirateships, the group that tries to push has to go through so many aoes that most of the time they will just lose if they didnt kill enough enemies whilst pirateshipping before their push. have you played a melee class recently? standing in a zerg watching as spells and aoes fly around, just waiting for a single push where you either win or die. thats the most boring thing ever > > scourges with all they give are just way too strong in withstanding a melee push, ripping all those boons, giving conditions and boosting your zerg with 10k barriers, even laying their elites into the pushing enemy > > while pushing they arent as effective as in the defensive position > > i do play in zergs regularly, but i roam more. while zerging i mostly play ele not my main, so i dont care as much about it. i havent played a melee recently as in current meta for a rather bad pug zerg a good ele will carry more then a good supporter (or at least with ele you still can ensure kills even if you wipe, with a supporter not :D ) and i never liked playing warrior so that one would not be an option. > while pushing their opponents walk out of their AoE, defensive they often walk right into them. melee pushes are only denied by the amount of corrupt, because corrupts and boons are spammed and right now you cannot spamm boons fast enough to not care about corrupts. if corrupts were nerfed to a point you can melee push again, at that point you wont be able to get the boons off the zerg. this will result in extremely low power damage and pretty much no condi damage cause of resistance. so you will not generate many downstates, good luck finishing any of those with so many running res traits or skills like merciful intervention. right now we at least do get kills. then make apply boons harder for example with blasting fields, im still one of the players that instinctively blasts waterfields when i walk through one because it was the best way of healing back in the day now when you manage your zerg well enough so that everyone with skill is able to blast a field with the right boons you should be rewarded with the ability to push without gettibg everything instantly corrupted...and you can kill enemies that are bad at applying boons, and if they are equally good then the better tactician leader wins...this way it would again be a skillful thing to do and not just the mindless aoe spam we have right now > @"Roxanne.6140" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Roxanne.6140" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > > > > > > > Scourge might be strong, but w/o it we go back to HoT style boonball meta, and....kitten that crap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here’s an idea, let’s go back to pre specialisation where boon (and skill) spam wasn’t as big an issue, ofc with current stab not the no ICD CC removal stab we had that made for pirate ships. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you know that's not going to happen. As much as I miss the old pre-stability nerf days, there is no point in wishing for it to return. I try to learn and adapt and keep playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge is a necessary evil in WvW because it serves a purpose, it counters the natural desire every group has to be carried by boons and try to one push everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A lot of the complaints I read about Scourge come from people who clearly do not understand the mechanics or counters. I don't go out and say "git gud" or "l2p" but some people seem more consumed with complaining rather then actually trying to learn. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like there will soon be no point wishing for players to return to GW2 if ANet keep on this path of power creep and spamfiesta. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for not understanding the mechanics I think a very large part of it is that the mechanics themselves aren’t exactly well distinguised, how do I tell the fear from the first pulse of the desert shroud or the F2? Alone a scourge can be an easy kill, supported it’s annoying without ranged damage which not every class is fortunate to have like sword weaver. > > > > > > > > > > Any class can counter Scourge, it doesn't rely on something like stealth which only few classes have access to any counter skills. If less people would stop relying on boons to carry them and actually tried to play smarter, they wouldn't have such problems. > > > > > > > > > > As far as skills go, the f2/3/4 skills dont do damage on their own, it relies on the shade/Scourge' proximity to the target. If you stand lets say 600 range away from me and I use a shade skill without using manifest sand shade, it wont do any damage to you. People seem to forget that Scourge loses access to Shroud which is the Necro's second life bar, the ability to quickly access your shade skills is important to keep you alive. The f2-5 skills are important for damage and sustain and are all reliant on life force, which is also why Manifest Sand Shade uses the ammo system to function kind of like an auto attack. > > > > > > > > Lol well I assume a player is at least smart enough to realise they need a shade on you for shade skills to hit, seriously what kind of argument is that? It’s like saying CoR doesn’t one shot you if the rev doesn’t equip a hammer. > > > > > > I'm going to pretend you didn't assume that equipping a hammer is different from laying a shade first before casting the shade skills due to the very obvious cast time needed and the extra step. Unless you are one of the special few who has something non-hammer equipped all the time and only equip hammer right before casting hammer skills. I don't think weapon swap is comparable to having to cast shade before the rest of the skills. > > > > > > > > > There's only one other class who faced so much rubbish on a forum and that class is nearly nowhere in sight in wvw. > > > > It’s the same level of silly arguement, that’s the point. When shades themselves cannot be traited to apply conditions and corrupt boons then it may possibly be an arguement that they need to be cast first but when that cast comes with such a large benefit already it’s becomes almost a moot point. Hence the hammer rev analogy, that the hammer itself is being the only ranged option so equipping it to use is a moot point as there’s no downside to it unless in small scale. > > lol, in order for hammer and shade to be compared, make all damage and conditions be obtainable upon laying down the shade. I don't see why hammer needs to be brought in at all, do you always equip and unequip hammer in the midst of battle? just curious. im not sure if you are trolling or just didnt understand what he was trying to say... im gonna assume the second option. its not about the hammer specifically you could swap that one out for any other weapon the argument he was reffering to was something like "ohh but you need to know that you have to lay down your shades into your enemies to dmg them, otherwise its just around yourself and doesnt effect the enemy, so it shouldnt be nerfed" and to use this as a reason to not nerf something is just ridiculous because when nerfing something you should assume that the ppl you are trying to balance for atleast read what their skills are doing. so he used an exagerated example that is just as ridiculous. to assume that the ppl dont even know the most common thing is just wrong to use as an argument to balance something if you had a skill that would onehit everybody it would clearly be op, but somebody says "but hey, the ppl have to know that they need to equip staff (just as example) to be able to use that skill, so its totally balanced" the same way ppl should know that they have to lay down shades to effect their enemies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Smaller radius would be fine, people who want literally everything gutted are crazy and part of the problem. Anet is more likely to delete the spec than do a reasonable balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > as a mainly thief and roamer i think scourge is super weak, still wonder why i run into so many of them while roaming. they become annoying if they got a babysitter because downstate + rez trait is a little OP when you outnumber your opponent, but thats for any class. > > > > > > > > they got low chance to win a fight while roaming so i am ok with them dealing half as much damage as my ele in a zerg fight, while stripping boons to boost my damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the scourges you encounter alone are mist likeley zerg player that are either running to their zerg or just currently have no zerg available and dont know which other class to play in wvw > > > > > > > thief has enough mobility to get in and out vefore the scourge can apply his condis and thus wins by kiting > > > > > > > anyways if you read the post youd know its not about roaming the op was talking about, its about zerging and i want to see you killing scourges in a zerg. > > > > > > > im a roamer myself but i dont think anyone gives a kitten about balancing thise smallscale fights, zergs impact alot more ppl than roaming and this should be balanced. nobody cares that you as a thief can easily kill a single scourge. they are a problem for zergfights and thats what they should be balanced for, not for roaming. > > > > > > > > > > > > i did read it. still not sure if he was talking about zergfights or not, therefore i mentioned roaming and zergfights in the post you quoted. if scourges were dealing more damage then eles and revs while stripping boons and being more tanky, that would be an issue. but they are doing way less damage then a good weaver/rev, especially when they are on tanky stats like trailblaizer or dire. > > > > > > > > > > yea the point is that you need skill to do more dmg, scourges can just plaster an open space with aoe and not only are they still dealing lots of dmg, they also corrupt boons en masse and they offer barriers as support, revs and ele have to be played almost only as dmg spec without offering much else > > > > > > > > > > abd tbh it was quite clear that he was talkig about zerg fighting > > > > > > > > only because its easy to play doesnt mean it has to be weak. while scourge does ontop of damage corrupts and barriers, they pay for that in dealing less damage, thats how it should be. if they were dealing damage close to rev/ele that would be an issue, but as it is their damage is not an issue. their corrupt is needed to avoid that boring boonball meta and their barrier they need to survive as they have no blocks or evades on skills aswell as terrible mobility > > > > > > i dont say that it has to be weak, its just simply overtuned, do you even fight in zergs? all your posts ive seen so far are about roaming > > > tbh boonball meta was alot more exciting than those boring pirateships, the group that tries to push has to go through so many aoes that most of the time they will just lose if they didnt kill enough enemies whilst pirateshipping before their push. have you played a melee class recently? standing in a zerg watching as spells and aoes fly around, just waiting for a single push where you either win or die. thats the most boring thing ever > > > scourges with all they give are just way too strong in withstanding a melee push, ripping all those boons, giving conditions and boosting your zerg with 10k barriers, even laying their elites into the pushing enemy > > > while pushing they arent as effective as in the defensive position > > > > i do play in zergs regularly, but i roam more. while zerging i mostly play ele not my main, so i dont care as much about it. i havent played a melee recently as in current meta for a rather bad pug zerg a good ele will carry more then a good supporter (or at least with ele you still can ensure kills even if you wipe, with a supporter not :D ) and i never liked playing warrior so that one would not be an option. > > while pushing their opponents walk out of their AoE, defensive they often walk right into them. melee pushes are only denied by the amount of corrupt, because corrupts and boons are spammed and right now you cannot spamm boons fast enough to not care about corrupts. if corrupts were nerfed to a point you can melee push again, at that point you wont be able to get the boons off the zerg. this will result in extremely low power damage and pretty much no condi damage cause of resistance. so you will not generate many downstates, good luck finishing any of those with so many running res traits or skills like merciful intervention. right now we at least do get kills. > > then make apply boons harder for example with blasting fields, im still one of the players that instinctively blasts waterfields when i walk through one because it was the best way of healing back in the day > now when you manage your zerg well enough so that everyone with skill is able to blast a field with the right boons you should be rewarded with the ability to push without gettibg everything instantly corrupted...and you can kill enemies that are bad at applying boons, and if they are equally good then the better tactician leader wins...this way it would again be a skillful thing to do and not just the mindless aoe spam we have right now > but then with a tactic to apply boons with groupplay, we might get a combo for corrupts with it.. 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RedShark.9548 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > as a mainly thief and roamer i think scourge is super weak, still wonder why i run into so many of them while roaming. they become annoying if they got a babysitter because downstate + rez trait is a little OP when you outnumber your opponent, but thats for any class. > > > > > > > > > they got low chance to win a fight while roaming so i am ok with them dealing half as much damage as my ele in a zerg fight, while stripping boons to boost my damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the scourges you encounter alone are mist likeley zerg player that are either running to their zerg or just currently have no zerg available and dont know which other class to play in wvw > > > > > > > > thief has enough mobility to get in and out vefore the scourge can apply his condis and thus wins by kiting > > > > > > > > anyways if you read the post youd know its not about roaming the op was talking about, its about zerging and i want to see you killing scourges in a zerg. > > > > > > > > im a roamer myself but i dont think anyone gives a kitten about balancing thise smallscale fights, zergs impact alot more ppl than roaming and this should be balanced. nobody cares that you as a thief can easily kill a single scourge. they are a problem for zergfights and thats what they should be balanced for, not for roaming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i did read it. still not sure if he was talking about zergfights or not, therefore i mentioned roaming and zergfights in the post you quoted. if scourges were dealing more damage then eles and revs while stripping boons and being more tanky, that would be an issue. but they are doing way less damage then a good weaver/rev, especially when they are on tanky stats like trailblaizer or dire. > > > > > > > > > > > > yea the point is that you need skill to do more dmg, scourges can just plaster an open space with aoe and not only are they still dealing lots of dmg, they also corrupt boons en masse and they offer barriers as support, revs and ele have to be played almost only as dmg spec without offering much else > > > > > > > > > > > > abd tbh it was quite clear that he was talkig about zerg fighting > > > > > > > > > > only because its easy to play doesnt mean it has to be weak. while scourge does ontop of damage corrupts and barriers, they pay for that in dealing less damage, thats how it should be. if they were dealing damage close to rev/ele that would be an issue, but as it is their damage is not an issue. their corrupt is needed to avoid that boring boonball meta and their barrier they need to survive as they have no blocks or evades on skills aswell as terrible mobility > > > > > > > > i dont say that it has to be weak, its just simply overtuned, do you even fight in zergs? all your posts ive seen so far are about roaming > > > > tbh boonball meta was alot more exciting than those boring pirateships, the group that tries to push has to go through so many aoes that most of the time they will just lose if they didnt kill enough enemies whilst pirateshipping before their push. have you played a melee class recently? standing in a zerg watching as spells and aoes fly around, just waiting for a single push where you either win or die. thats the most boring thing ever > > > > scourges with all they give are just way too strong in withstanding a melee push, ripping all those boons, giving conditions and boosting your zerg with 10k barriers, even laying their elites into the pushing enemy > > > > while pushing they arent as effective as in the defensive position > > > > > > i do play in zergs regularly, but i roam more. while zerging i mostly play ele not my main, so i dont care as much about it. i havent played a melee recently as in current meta for a rather bad pug zerg a good ele will carry more then a good supporter (or at least with ele you still can ensure kills even if you wipe, with a supporter not :D ) and i never liked playing warrior so that one would not be an option. > > > while pushing their opponents walk out of their AoE, defensive they often walk right into them. melee pushes are only denied by the amount of corrupt, because corrupts and boons are spammed and right now you cannot spamm boons fast enough to not care about corrupts. if corrupts were nerfed to a point you can melee push again, at that point you wont be able to get the boons off the zerg. this will result in extremely low power damage and pretty much no condi damage cause of resistance. so you will not generate many downstates, good luck finishing any of those with so many running res traits or skills like merciful intervention. right now we at least do get kills. > > > > then make apply boons harder for example with blasting fields, im still one of the players that instinctively blasts waterfields when i walk through one because it was the best way of healing back in the day > > now when you manage your zerg well enough so that everyone with skill is able to blast a field with the right boons you should be rewarded with the ability to push without gettibg everything instantly corrupted...and you can kill enemies that are bad at applying boons, and if they are equally good then the better tactician leader wins...this way it would again be a skillful thing to do and not just the mindless aoe spam we have right now > > > but then with a tactic to apply boons with groupplay, we might get a combo for corrupts with it.. > > that would still require skill to time and coordinate with your group so still better than the monstrositiy we have now, the better group at stacking and corrupting would win, not the one with the higher amount of facerollers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProtoGunner.4953 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 If people have problems with a - subjectively - OP class, just play this class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 heres a change scourge needs : get rid of shade aoe on scourge when there's shades summoned , this would solve the main issues with scourge right now wich is access to 10 targets and 720 radius aoe, also allows for more dynamic combat as they would have to choose between supporting nearby players or attacking/supporting players at a distance and for the few that say scourge does no damage please do tell me how scourge does no damage : https://i.imgur.com/n6RbDno.png https://i.imgur.com/hgi5wqe.png https://i.imgur.com/ZVJIMOa.png https://i.imgur.com/vXCwEGY.png i run marauder's so slap a 200% bonus on that damage btw im running yellow gear, and 2 viper pieces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > > @"jaif.3518" said: > > > @"MadBomber.3719" said: > > > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > > > Fb, sb and scourge are all super over represented right now. > > > > > > tbf GWEN comps were always the most represented classes in WvW zerging. not that scourge isn't broken just that it's always been dominant in representation > > > > So 4 of the 8 classes (no rev at the time) for zergs. Thieves, Mesmers, and Rangers roamed, with some warriors as well. One or two mesmers per zerg. Engineers were pointless. Various odd-ball roamers used by skilled players (burn guard, d/d ele, etc). > > > > It actually wasn't bad. I'd love to see every class have a good zerg role, but honestly, it wasn't bad at the start. Now? Like the picture says, 50%+scourges, and honestly, the more the better. > > > > -Jeff > > Every class is different, and not every one can be optimal for each gamemode and type of playstyle because they require different things. One class might be bad for zerging, but will excel at roaming/dueling. The meta shifts over time have created a need for more aoe ranged damage, and more support builds. Therefore certain classes will be left out because they either dont perform these roles, or are outshined by other classes. > > Necro has essentially remained the same in its purpose in WvW. Anet should give a roll for every class other then a sub version of the optimal roll. A lot of classes do the same thing as scourge but with less effects and less aoe and less spamabitly. In the old meta you only saw a few class but you could still have the odd ball classes have viability such as thf and its ability to counter mages but scourge is so overwhelming overpowers in wvw that a thf class cant get in and do enofe dmg to a scorge who is a mages class. In a lot of ways by playing scorge you become a worst player as gw2 and over all gaming due to just how overpower it effects are making it less of a mages class but more of a full tankly class that dose every thing a mages can do its realty just that bad and is a real danger to players. Who needs to dodge when you have max barrier all the time who needs to aim when you have 300 size aoe x 2. Its a complete brake down from gw2 combat. > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said: > If people have problems with a - subjectively - OP class, just play this class. As i said you cant play it with out destroying your skill as a player in gw2. In effect if you play scorge you will only be able to play scorge in a group fight from there on out and if there is any real update to the class a lot of ppl are going to be out of luck because they lost there skill at playing gw2. Scorge is about as harmful to the game type as imaginable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clownmug.8357 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said: > If people have problems with a - subjectively - OP class, just play this class. Wow, it's the famous motto of thief apologists. Never thought I'd see the day it was used to excuse BS for necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > @"jaif.3518" said: > > > > @"MadBomber.3719" said: > > > > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > > > > Fb, sb and scourge are all super over represented right now. > > > > > > > > tbf GWEN comps were always the most represented classes in WvW zerging. not that scourge isn't broken just that it's always been dominant in representation > > > > > > So 4 of the 8 classes (no rev at the time) for zergs. Thieves, Mesmers, and Rangers roamed, with some warriors as well. One or two mesmers per zerg. Engineers were pointless. Various odd-ball roamers used by skilled players (burn guard, d/d ele, etc). > > > > > > It actually wasn't bad. I'd love to see every class have a good zerg role, but honestly, it wasn't bad at the start. Now? Like the picture says, 50%+scourges, and honestly, the more the better. > > > > > > -Jeff > > > > Every class is different, and not every one can be optimal for each gamemode and type of playstyle because they require different things. One class might be bad for zerging, but will excel at roaming/dueling. The meta shifts over time have created a need for more aoe ranged damage, and more support builds. Therefore certain classes will be left out because they either dont perform these roles, or are outshined by other classes. > > > > Necro has essentially remained the same in its purpose in WvW. > > Anet should give a roll for every class other then a sub version of the optimal roll. A lot of classes do the same thing as scourge but with less effects and less aoe and less spamabitly. In the old meta you only saw a few class but you could still have the odd ball classes have viability such as thf and its ability to counter mages but scourge is so overwhelming overpowers in wvw that a thf class cant get in and do enofe dmg to a scorge who is a mages class. > > In a lot of ways by playing scorge you become a worst player as gw2 and over all gaming due to just how overpower it effects are making it less of a mages class but more of a full tankly class that dose every thing a mages can do its realty just that bad and is a real danger to players. Who needs to dodge when you have max barrier all the time who needs to aim when you have 300 size aoe x 2. Its a complete brake down from gw2 combat. > > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said: > > If people have problems with a - subjectively - OP class, just play this class. > > As i said you cant play it with out destroying your skill as a player in gw2. In effect if you play scorge you will only be able to play scorge in a group fight from there on out and if there is any real update to the class a lot of ppl are going to be out of luck because they lost there skill at playing gw2. Scorge is about as harmful to the game type as imaginable. Hyperbole does NOT help these discussions. It’s simply ridiculous if you think scourge is doing more burst than the buff to meteor and equally ridiculous to say playing a scourge ruins your ability to play the game. Tone down the radius, damage, condi stacks whatever, way too many of you essentially calling for the class to be gutted in all regards. I’m sure all us necro players are fotm scourge players but if you get paired up with Mag hit me up in game. Would be happy to show you what’s up on core necro, reaper or any number of other classes. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMTDJ.9042 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > > @"jaif.3518" said: > > > > > @"MadBomber.3719" said: > > > > > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > > > > > Fb, sb and scourge are all super over represented right now. > > > > > > > > > > tbf GWEN comps were always the most represented classes in WvW zerging. not that scourge isn't broken just that it's always been dominant in representation > > > > > > > > So 4 of the 8 classes (no rev at the time) for zergs. Thieves, Mesmers, and Rangers roamed, with some warriors as well. One or two mesmers per zerg. Engineers were pointless. Various odd-ball roamers used by skilled players (burn guard, d/d ele, etc). > > > > > > > > It actually wasn't bad. I'd love to see every class have a good zerg role, but honestly, it wasn't bad at the start. Now? Like the picture says, 50%+scourges, and honestly, the more the better. > > > > > > > > -Jeff > > > > > > Every class is different, and not every one can be optimal for each gamemode and type of playstyle because they require different things. One class might be bad for zerging, but will excel at roaming/dueling. The meta shifts over time have created a need for more aoe ranged damage, and more support builds. Therefore certain classes will be left out because they either dont perform these roles, or are outshined by other classes. > > > > > > Necro has essentially remained the same in its purpose in WvW. > > > > Anet should give a roll for every class other then a sub version of the optimal roll. A lot of classes do the same thing as scourge but with less effects and less aoe and less spamabitly. In the old meta you only saw a few class but you could still have the odd ball classes have viability such as thf and its ability to counter mages but scourge is so overwhelming overpowers in wvw that a thf class cant get in and do enofe dmg to a scorge who is a mages class. > > > > In a lot of ways by playing scorge you become a worst player as gw2 and over all gaming due to just how overpower it effects are making it less of a mages class but more of a full tankly class that dose every thing a mages can do its realty just that bad and is a real danger to players. Who needs to dodge when you have max barrier all the time who needs to aim when you have 300 size aoe x 2. Its a complete brake down from gw2 combat. > > > > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said: > > > If people have problems with a - subjectively - OP class, just play this class. > > > > As i said you cant play it with out destroying your skill as a player in gw2. In effect if you play scorge you will only be able to play scorge in a group fight from there on out and if there is any real update to the class a lot of ppl are going to be out of luck because they lost there skill at playing gw2. Scorge is about as harmful to the game type as imaginable. > > Hyperbole does NOT help these discussions. > > It’s simply ridiculous if you think scourge is doing more burst than the buff to meteor and equally ridiculous to say playing a scourge ruins your ability to play the game. > > Tone down the radius, damage, condi stacks whatever, way too many of you essentially calling for the class to be gutted in all regards. > > I’m sure all us necro players are fotm scourge players but if you get paired up with Mag hit me up in game. Would be happy to show you what’s up on core necro, reaper or any number of other classes. :) I'm currently on a server against mag at the moment. Lol. Your scourge armies are ruthless. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"Dralor.3701" said: > Tone down the radius, damage, condi stacks whatever, way too many of you essentially calling for the class to be gutted in all regards. Problem is the spec is so badly designed that gutting it of damage is pretty much the only way to fix it for WvW. And I note that there are more balance changes today including many mesmer nerfs but none for scourge, again anet is just ignoring the issue with WvW. It wouldn't surprise me if part of the population decline in WvW is due to how overwhelming the scourge meta is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > Scourge is a necessary evil in WvW because it serves a purpose, it counters the natural desire every group has to be carried by boons and try to one push everyone. Spellbreakers serve that purpose and in a way that is far more easily counterable than large groups composed of 70% scourges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X T D.6458 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > Scourge is a necessary evil in WvW because it serves a purpose, it counters the natural desire every group has to be carried by boons and try to one push everyone. > > Spellbreakers serve that purpose and in a way that is far more easily counterable than large groups composed of 70% scourges. > > Spellbreakers are part of it, but Warriors do not provide aoe or range damage. WoD can make or break a fight, but it is an elite skill. Nobody is going to stack their zerg with warriors because they dont provide support, ranged/aoe damage. Scourge is not just there for boon corruption, it is there to enforce area control and punish groups for making mistakes and using bad positioning. If its not Scourge, it will be something else. People will always use what is most effective and try to maximize its usefulness. Necro has always been part of the meta in WvW because of its burst damage ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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