Math.5123 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > * I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta > > > * I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1). > > > * I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game. > > > > > > They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc. > > > People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions. > > > > This would have been a great post, if it wasn't posted by a Chronomancer main. Your class is broken and it should have been butchered weeks ago, it wasn't. Of course people are upset. > > You are too cynical. > > After all, I am biased against those that lambast an entire class for some of its builds, especially the ones I don't play. > > However, my primary frustration is losing unnecessarily in sPvP. I don't have any loyalty to enemy Mesmers when they decimate my trickling team. So what malevolent reason would I have for pointing out that the disappointment was weeks ago? > > * Are there more nerf suggestions that Anet hasn't heard already? > * Should people not be trying to beat Mesmer/Scourge/Whatever in between balance patches? > * Should everyone just stop playing sPvP because nothing came be done? > > My hope would be people come up with strategies, refine their rotation skills, maybe even create a new Meta. My primary frustration is losing unnecessarily in sPvP because I decide not to play Chronomancer. Scourge is very much counterable (even though the playstyle is boring and oppressive). Chronomancers lose very few 1v1s. They do however break even against very skilled Spellbreakers (Boyce, Rayzen and to a lesser extent Vaanns) aswell as condi Mirage. They are also susceptible to condi thief +1s. However, they have no clear counters. That being said, it's not on the community to refine their "rotational skills and strategies" in this particular instance. There's a reason every team ran double Mesmer in the UGO, there's a reason Chronomancers were banned in the Mist Challengers and there's a reason that last days prime AT had 9 Mesmers distributed across the 4 teams that we faced. > I could have just as easily said nothing, and let upset people continue to yell at Anet while treating the situation as hopeless. You probably should have said nothing as you've contributed nothing to the people asking you how to counter it, playing as a class that isn't Mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > * I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta There's a difference between dominant and broken. Spellbreaker is dominant. Holosmith is dominant. Can they be outplayed without resorting to a specific class or weapon set? yes. > * I get they are frustrating to play against- There's, again, a difference between frustrating and unfair. Thief is frustrating. Getting hit by a Rock Gazelle out of stealth is frustrating. Being launchlocked by Engie is frustrating. > * I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game. They are. And if they are slow to do that, obviously people will not work well together or lash out as more and more toxic people pour into the currently overperforming specs. > They are legitimate points. But- But not required. If there are glaring issues that need to be addressed, and there is a major consensus that includes people that play the class that has those specs, and nothing to resolve the issues occurs, there is very little reason for go "It's just a circlejerk, nobody's making strategies, nobody's working with their team." Those may all be glaring issues but they will persist as long as the root problem does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > * I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta > > > > > * I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1). > > > > > * I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game. > > > > > > > > > > They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc. > > > > > People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions. > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > > * I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta > > > > > > * I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1). > > > > > > * I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc. > > > > > > People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions. > > > > > > > > > > But I'd rather cry about how I ran straight into scourge sewage and died. > > > > > > > > See...and that's the thing....you're SUPPOSED to run into that sewage because that's how conquest actually WORKS since that sewage just happens to be where the capture point is! > > > > > > > > Also, this "circle jerk" isn't as pronounced as people think it is. Scourge is broken, mirage is broken. All PoF specs are broken. Scourge and mirage just happen to be the more broken ones. > > > > > > The more "pronounced" ones finish faster. Those professions have gotten lowkey hate since Gw1 for their playstyles. As had Thief since beta. It's just that after Elite Specs, the issues that arouse were more prominent and people seized on a method to convey these earlier feelings. > > > > > > I just think all this energy is better suited to trying to improve as a player and get the game. > > > > During all 7 years of GW1, the mesmer was unholy oppressive **only for an outstanding 3 months** because of a change to a couple of Hex elites aimed to give the class more firepower in pve, it was an elite with hex/condi dmg on a 5s CD...wastrel's demise if I remember correct...but even during those 3 months the mesmer was not untouchable by any class and could be taken down in a fashionable way. > > > > Another example of oppression was **dervish with the avatar forms rework but again it took only 3 months to tone everything down** > > > > Comparing the balance of GW2 to anything close to GW1......**it's pure heresy**, like comparing the light of the sun(GW1) with a light bulb (GW2) > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shutdown it doesn't have to OP to cause lowkey hate. The only change was a shift away from disabling skills to interrupting or evading them. Assassin - > Thief produced similar nonsense with shadow form becoming stealth. A mesmer dedicated to shutdown wasn't doing much else, you were still able to outclass the mesmer with insta cast skills or fake cast...**we had energy and CD**...not like here where it daze spam, stealth, stun etc etc etc...and thief shadowstep...we had instant blind/weakness/KD that worked pretty well in shutting down an assassin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > * I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta > > > > > * I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1). > > > > > * I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game. > > > > > > > > > > They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc. > > > > > People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions. > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > > * I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta > > > > > > * I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1). > > > > > > * I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc. > > > > > > People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions. > > > > > > > > > > But I'd rather cry about how I ran straight into scourge sewage and died. > > > > > > > > See...and that's the thing....you're SUPPOSED to run into that sewage because that's how conquest actually WORKS since that sewage just happens to be where the capture point is! > > > > > > > > Also, this "circle jerk" isn't as pronounced as people think it is. Scourge is broken, mirage is broken. All PoF specs are broken. Scourge and mirage just happen to be the more broken ones. > > > > > > The more "pronounced" ones finish faster. Those professions have gotten lowkey hate since Gw1 for their playstyles. As had Thief since beta. It's just that after Elite Specs, the issues that arouse were more prominent and people seized on a method to convey these earlier feelings. > > > > > > I just think all this energy is better suited to trying to improve as a player and get the game. > > > > During all 7 years of GW1, the mesmer was unholy oppressive **only for an outstanding 3 months** because of a change to a couple of Hex elites aimed to give the class more firepower in pve, it was an elite with hex/condi dmg on a 5s CD...wastrel's demise if I remember correct...but even during those 3 months the mesmer was not untouchable by any class and could be taken down in a fashionable way. > > > > Another example of oppression was **dervish with the avatar forms rework but again it took only 3 months to tone everything down** > > > > Comparing the balance of GW2 to anything close to GW1......**it's pure heresy**, like comparing the light of the sun(GW1) with a light bulb (GW2) > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shutdown it doesn't have to OP to cause lowkey hate. The only change was a shift away from disabling skills to interrupting or evading them. Assassin - > Thief produced similar nonsense with shadow form becoming stealth. The regular, P-Block, Shame, Diversion, Drain Enchantment, Complicate, Power Drain, Shatter Ench and Pact bar was all about shut-down. Those skills however would never work in this game considering how much more fast-paced this game is. Having a Mesmer lock you out from using a skill for over a minute if they ate Diversion, or locking all skills from a particular attribute for 10 seconds of you got interrupted. Also, that build has no damage and no survivability. Also, stop comparing two vastly different games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted May 16, 2018 Author Share Posted May 16, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > * I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta > > > > * I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1). > > > > * I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game. > > > > > > > > They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc. > > > > People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions. > > > > > > This would have been a great post, if it wasn't posted by a Chronomancer main. Your class is broken and it should have been butchered weeks ago, it wasn't. Of course people are upset. > > > > You are too cynical. > > > > After all, I am biased against those that lambast an entire class for some of its builds, especially the ones I don't play. > > > > However, my primary frustration is losing unnecessarily in sPvP. I don't have any loyalty to enemy Mesmers when they decimate my trickling team. So what malevolent reason would I have for pointing out that the disappointment was weeks ago? > > > > * Are there more nerf suggestions that Anet hasn't heard already? > > * Should people not be trying to beat Mesmer/Scourge/Whatever in between balance patches? > > * Should everyone just stop playing sPvP because nothing came be done? > > > > My hope would be people come up with strategies, refine their rotation skills, maybe even create a new Meta. > > My primary frustration is losing unnecessarily in sPvP because I decide not to play Chronomancer. Scourge is very much counterable (even though the playstyle is boring and oppressive). Chronomancers lose very few 1v1s. They do however break even against very skilled Spellbreakers (Boyce, Rayzen and to a lesser extent Vaanns) aswell as condi Mirage. They are also susceptible to condi thief +1s. However, they have no clear counters. Then let them be nerfed. Join the megathread, email Anet, send letters, whatever you want. But after you've given suggestions try make good use of the situation as Anet does their job. > That being said, it's not on the community to refine their "rotational skills and strategies" in this particular instance. There's a reason every team ran double Mesmer in the UGO, there's a reason Chronomancers were banned in the Mist Challengers and there's a reason that last days prime AT had 9 Mesmers distributed across the 4 teams that we faced. It is always on the community to do that, regardless of situation. This one just happens to be mote trying. And no matter what, you'll have to wait for Anet, might as well do something in the meantime. I imagine the people who learn to deal with the brokenness, even somewhat will also be better off after the nerfs. > > I could have just as easily said nothing, and let upset people continue to yell at Anet while treating the situation as hopeless. > You probably should have said nothing as you've contributed nothing to the people asking you how to counter it, playing as a class that isn't Mesmer. Numerous people have responded to people asking. I'm not an expert on all classes. Nor have I ever made a Meta. Saying nothing just perpetuates the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipthelip.5802 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 They have been "reviewing" things for months. They actually have nerfed scourges multiple times and they still haven't gotten it quite right. Mesmer they seem pretty much clueless about what it wrong. Have you ever heard of the old adage the squeaky wheel gets the grease? Thats what some people are hoping for. The idea that things just magically get taken care of is fanciful imo. As for bad teamplay being the problem thats also fanciful for rated queue at least as you can group with only one other person and not even that after a certain point so how can you expect teamplay to make the difference when both sides are five complete strangers. The strongest classes do in fact carry the day in those situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 If there's one thing I agree with in this thread, its that even with the obvious cheese, we should commit to learning how to beat it on our own. We should still complain about it but rule of least resistance does apply to all mmos. If it is easy and effective, people will play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I feel like Scourge is falling out of the dominant position into just "viable" with the rise of DPS Soulbeasts and a heavy roaming meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > I feel like Scourge is falling out of the dominant position into just "viable" with the rise of DPS Soulbeasts and a heavy roaming meta. > Aside from druids being nerfed why arr Soulbeasts suddenly everywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTGuevara.9018 Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > If there's one thing I agree with in this thread, its that even with the obvious cheese, we should commit to learning how to beat it on our own. We should still complain about it but rule of least resistance does apply to all mmos. If it is easy and effective, people will play it. Um...how about NO. Players have been commiting for YEARS addressing different types of cheese. I have. Most have lost patience and left this game. Those that are left are either tryhards or farmers. As players, when do we draw the line? At what point do we just say enough "adapting" to the "meta"? While you're correct about the path of least resistance, that's still no excuse to play this pvp garbage with all the powercreeped nonsense. It is simply not fun to play. For me, it fails the basic smell test of what a game is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > If there's one thing I agree with in this thread, its that even with the obvious cheese, we should commit to learning how to beat it on our own. We should still complain about it but rule of least resistance does apply to all mmos. If it is easy and effective, people will play it. > > Um...how about NO. > > Players have been commiting for YEARS addressing different types of cheese. I have. Most have lost patience and left this game. Those that are left are either tryhards or farmers. As players, when do we draw the line? At what point do we just say enough "adapting" to the "meta"? While you're correct about the path of least resistance, that's still no excuse to play this pvp garbage with all the powercreeped nonsense. It is simply not fun to play. For me, it fails the basic smell test of what a game is. Most of what is perceived as power creep is a deliberate choice by the developers to cull away defensive amulets from the game almost entirely. I agree with this decision making and feel like the basic level of lethality in the game is in a mostly good spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTGuevara.9018 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > If there's one thing I agree with in this thread, its that even with the obvious cheese, we should commit to learning how to beat it on our own. We should still complain about it but rule of least resistance does apply to all mmos. If it is easy and effective, people will play it. > > > > Um...how about NO. > > > > Players have been commiting for YEARS addressing different types of cheese. I have. Most have lost patience and left this game. Those that are left are either tryhards or farmers. As players, when do we draw the line? At what point do we just say enough "adapting" to the "meta"? While you're correct about the path of least resistance, that's still no excuse to play this pvp garbage with all the powercreeped nonsense. It is simply not fun to play. For me, it fails the basic smell test of what a game is. > > Most of what is perceived as power creep is a deliberate choice by the developers to cull away defensive amulets from the game almost entirely. I agree with this decision making and feel like the basic level of lethality in the game is in a mostly good spot. lol In other words: powercreep! Thanks for proving my point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > If there's one thing I agree with in this thread, its that even with the obvious cheese, we should commit to learning how to beat it on our own. We should still complain about it but rule of least resistance does apply to all mmos. If it is easy and effective, people will play it. > > > > > > Um...how about NO. > > > > > > Players have been commiting for YEARS addressing different types of cheese. I have. Most have lost patience and left this game. Those that are left are either tryhards or farmers. As players, when do we draw the line? At what point do we just say enough "adapting" to the "meta"? While you're correct about the path of least resistance, that's still no excuse to play this pvp garbage with all the powercreeped nonsense. It is simply not fun to play. For me, it fails the basic smell test of what a game is. > > > > Most of what is perceived as power creep is a deliberate choice by the developers to cull away defensive amulets from the game almost entirely. I agree with this decision making and feel like the basic level of lethality in the game is in a mostly good spot. > > lol In other words: powercreep! Thanks for proving my point! Nerfing everyone's potential defensive capabilities across the board is the exact opposite of power creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > I feel like Scourge is falling out of the dominant position into just "viable" with the rise of DPS Soulbeasts and a heavy roaming meta. > > > > Aside from druids being nerfed why arr Soulbeasts suddenly everywhere? It's a big combination of cause & effect: * Spellbreaker got nerfed & Druid falls out * Spellbreaker damage nerf means DPS Soulbeasts can now tangle with them * Druid falling out means no unkillable bunkers on side nodes so DPS Soulbeast becomes a viable side node 1v1 decap * Mesmers being so ridiculously powerful begins to make a 1500 ranged DPS Soulbeast team fight +, a powerful team boon. Not to mention that they can front a high uptime of unblockable projectiles. This is also highly effective vs. Firebrand. * Then there are other aspects that we discover once the Spellbreakers are toned down and Druids are gone, like how a Soulbeast can easily kite other DPS specs like Holo, or how it can kill a Thief in 2 hits easily. Then we have that situation where DPS Roamers in general are suddenly becoming favored over slow Scourge/FB play so something like a well played Soulbeast that can rattle off 30k+ damage in less than 2s can become a powerful team fight presence. All it takes for a meta to completely flip is one small change like that, it can make a domino effect that changes the dynamic of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > I feel like Scourge is falling out of the dominant position into just "viable" with the rise of DPS Soulbeasts and a heavy roaming meta. > > > > > > > Aside from druids being nerfed why arr Soulbeasts suddenly everywhere? > > It's a big combination of cause & effect: > * Spellbreaker got nerfed & Druid falls out > * Spellbreaker damage nerf means DPS Soulbeasts can now tangle with them > * Druid falling out means no unkillable bunkers on side nodes so DPS Soulbeast becomes a viable side node 1v1 decap > * Mesmers being so ridiculously powerful begins to make a 1500 ranged DPS Soulbeast team fight +, a powerful team boon. Not to mention that they can front a high uptime of unblockable projectiles. This is also highly effective vs. Firebrand. > * Then there are other aspects that we discover once the Spellbreakers are toned down and Druids are gone, like how a Soulbeast can easily kite other DPS specs like Holo, or how it can kill a Thief in 2 hits easily. Then we have that situation where DPS Roamers in general are suddenly becoming favored over slow Scourge/FB play so something like a well played Soulbeast that can rattle off 30k+ damage in less than 2s can become a powerful team fight presence. > > All it takes for a meta to completely flip is one small change like that, it can make a domino effect that changes the dynamic of everything. > And then the cycle begins again on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaminoNakani.7083 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I can't imagine working on the balance team at arena net, bouncing between the lazy, uncreative, bandwagon players and likely some stubborn, spiteful devs due to the aforementioned players would drive me to therapeutic alcoholism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now