Why is Condi Engi dps SO BAD when it is probably the hardest thing to play in the game?

[coro.3176]

* it takes longer to ramp up to decent dps compared to Holo

* it does overall lower dps

* it's much, much harder to play

* it's much more susceptible to having its rotation interrupted and is near-impossible to pull off well on moving targets

 

The difficulty - effectiveness curve is completely wrong here. I like a challenge. I play Engineer because I like using lots of skills, remembering cooldowns, etc. I want that to pay off in damage. Currently, I'm forced to play Holo in PvE with a boring, fairly skill-less rotation. It irks me that I get more dps from autoattacking on Holo than I do from actually playing something difficult.

[CptAurellian.9537]

ANet's ways of balancing are unfathomable.

[Hoodie.1045]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> * it takes longer to ramp up to decent dps compared to Holo

> * it does overall lower dps

> * it's much, much harder to play

> * it's much more susceptible to having its rotation interrupted and is near-impossible to pull off well on moving targets

>

> The difficulty - effectiveness curve is completely wrong here. I like a challenge. I play Engineer because I like using lots of skills, remembering cooldowns, etc. I want that to pay off in damage. Currently, I'm forced to play Holo in PvE with a boring, fairly skill-less rotation. It irks me that I get more dps from autoattacking on Holo than I do from actually playing something difficult.

 

Condition engineer is in a really bad spot. Traits such as Incendiary Powder got nerfed in December 2017. They reduced the burning stacks and overall nerfed the condition damage. It takes such a long time to even deal significant amount of damage as core condition engineer while professions like the mesmer can use the torch weapon and apply multiple stacks of burning or any other condition in general and deal a lot more damage.

 

Your best option when you're playing hybrid/condition engineer is to use Rabid Amulet and use the Sanguine Array trait in the Firearms specialization. Otherwise, play power engineer. It may not have as much damage as Holosmith, but it's better than playing full condition engineer in my opinion.

[Malediktus.9250]

Because Anet likes promoting faceroll builds. Condi engi used to be really good before Anet nerfed it for no reason

[Imperadordf.2687]

I don't really understand why Condition Engineer doesn't get looked at at all.

It is like Weaver, but it's harder and it's condi. I don't get it. Is it because it's a core profession? Or because it's boring to most of the players? We really need an answer.

[Turin.6921]

Well anet does not usually balanced around specific builds. The rotations are inventions of the community not the devs themselves in which balancing needs to adapt to. Just because the community has a created a build it does not mean that the balancing has a duty to support it. And the condi engi always had an issue in that respect even when viable. It was always very fun but also low reward for the effort.

 

The condi engi was just the victim of the mesmer changes and the trend of reducing passive effects. Which are generally very good changes. And it would make no sense now to buff a core Spec since this would create issues in balancing the Elite Spec (current or future).

[steki.1478]

Because it has only 4 condi focused traits. Tools are essentially useless in condi build which means that condi focused elite spec will make it very strong.

 

Now, why dont they buff core engi (like they did with warrior) until then? Nobody knows.

[Nimon.7840]

It's also much harder to play than ele.

 

Well pink already wrote a song bout this:

 

Nobody knows but anet.....

 

Well some things just don't make any sense. For example: why does a warrior with 19k hp still have so much mobility,blocks and invulnerability while still having lots of dmg?

 

[steki.1478]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> It's also much harder to play than ele.

 

That was true before PoF, since half of tempest rotation was standing still and channeling skills.

 

Weaver has a lot tighter rotation compared to tempest and small rotation mistakes can lead into bigger skills not getting extra 10% damage, or just delaying those skills for 10 more seconds until next cycle.

 

Meanehile wrong kit swap on engi is just an one second delay since kits dont have cast time nor cooldowns. The only thing you have to pay attention (besides skill cooldowns of course) is streamlined kits with mortar, which is kind of minor.

 

I play both and neither seems to be harder than the other one, but mistakes on weaver are a lot more impactful than engi ones.

 

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> I play both and neither seems to be harder than the other one, but mistakes on weaver are a lot more impactful than engi ones.

 

And then the boss moves and you lose far more dps on condi engi than you ever will on weaver.

 

 

 

[steki.1478]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > I play both and neither seems to be harder than the other one, but mistakes on weaver are a lot more impactful than engi ones.

>

> And then the boss moves and you lose far more dps on condi engi than you ever will on weaver.

>

 

Napalm and fire bomb are the most important static skills on engi. If you expect the boss to move you can just delay napalm, although it has pretty small aoe so it's kinda hard to. Meanwhile ele has 5 of those aoes, and delaying them means that you lose other modifiers (or in case of fgs 5, there's no delay, you just miss it completely).

 

 

[coro.3176]

But if you miss certain condi engi skills, your dps drops off a cliff, which means it's very risky vs a moving boss. Other classes just pick back up again 1,1,1,1,1-ing the boss like nothing even happened.

 

Anyway, I agree that weaver is also difficult. I just think that in general, difficulty ought to be rewarded with the highest dps, not one of the lowest.

 

*Also, I find it's more difficult to put up decent numbers solo or in fractals, whereas with other classes, or even Holo, I'm doing nearly twice the dps just by auto-attacking with a not-even-optimized power build.

[zealex.9410]

Wasnt confusion reverted in the latest patch?

[AnariiUK.7409]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Wasnt confusion reverted in the latest patch?

 

It gained a new proc effect but the base tick remains weak. Confusion is great against raid bosses (even MO) but not fantastic against the DPS golem so it's a bit unexplored/underrated right now.

 

I'd love to see condi-engi buffed. Its "rotation" makes classes like mirage or weaver feel like childs play and it's sad that there's currently no reward for that effort. I would definitely like to see more classes with fluid gameplay compared to static fixed rotations like holo/weaver/soulbeast etc.

[NikeEU.7690]

I've said it before but I'll say it again

 

**NOT EVERY BUILD IDEA DESERVES TO BE META** Just because you want to play a condi damage core revenant build using Jalis and Shiro doesnt mean Anet has failed when that build isn't considered meta. Yes, condi engie was once meta. So was dps Tempest. So was power base Thief. So was power Berserker. Things change. The game evolves. Some of these things will come back into vogue, some won't.

 

Secondly, leave some meat on the bone for next elite spec. If condi engie becomes a top dps meta build, how could anet create a condi dps spec in the next expac that would functionally replace condi engie without later nerfing it? Leaving some niches unfilled for now gives the team room to design new specs in the future.

[coro.3176]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> I've said it before but I'll say it again

>

> **NOT EVERY BUILD IDEA DESERVES TO BE META** Just because you want to play a condi damage core revenant build using Jalis and Shiro doesnt mean Anet has failed when that build isn't considered meta. Yes, condi engie was once meta. So was dps Tempest. So was power base Thief. So was power Berserker. Things change. The game evolves. Some of these things will come back into vogue, some won't.

 

This is not the game 'evolving'. It's regressing. If Condi Engi was [Dance Dance Revolution](https://media3.giphy.com/media/d3QFT79Ts4ut2/giphy.gif "Dance Dance Revolution"), then the current Meta Power Holo is [Hungry Hungry Hippos](http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/hungry-hippos.gif "Hungry Hungry Hippos"). Just mash the button!

 

* In general, difficulty *should* "pay off" in damage. Otherwise there is no incentive to play more difficult builds and improve in the game. The opposite of this would be everyone sitting around a boss pressing 1 button until it's dead. This is not engaging gameplay. As a Holo, my rotation feels like I'm mashing 1 the whole time compared to Condi which is a delicate piano piece on the keyboard where any mistake affects your output.

* There will always be a meta build. I don't dispute this. However, it doesn't mean non-meta builds should be so far behind the rest. Unbuffed (ie. no alacrity, etc.), I can probably do double my condi engi's dps(full raid build, skills, runes/traits) on holo(not using dps slot skills or optimal sigils/runes, just using photon forge) without even really trying. This seems .. wrong somehow. I ought to be able to do at least near the same dps on condi, but it's not close.

[NikeEU.7690]

> @"coro.3176" said:

 

> * In general, difficulty *should* "pay off" in damage. Otherwise there is no incentive to play more difficult builds and improve in the game. The opposite of this would be everyone sitting around a boss pressing 1 button until it's dead. This is not engaging gameplay. As a Holo, my rotation feels like I'm mashing 1 the whole time compared to Condi which is a delicate piano piece on the keyboard where any mistake affects your output.

 

I'm going to disagree with you here. Within reason, all dps builds should bring the same amount of overall value regardless of difficulty. That said, any build that is afk braindead auto attack should be nerfed so you at least need to press buttons. This whole concept of harder builds should do more dps is so bad for the game in the grand scheme of things because what ends up happening is everyone ends up being forced to play the high skill highest damage build regardless of whether they are capable of playing it well or not and the overall productivity of the community goes down. I dont mean this as an insult to you at all since I dont know you, but I've heard this position stated to me so many times by so many different people and what I've found is that it often tends to be said by people who are trying to fluff their e-peen or self-congratulate. Even if they aren't delusional, and have actually mastered a difficult build, they expect to be rewarded extra for it above and beyond the sense of a job well done.

 

Also, another point I didn't bring up initially but holds rather true: this isnt worth the balance team's time. The two dozen or so (being extremely generous) people who are good enough to play condi engie at a benchmark level are not a very large segment of the community. How many hours and how much effort should go into developing for them specifically when there are major issues with builds like power reaper affect a much, much bigger segment of the community?

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> I've said it before but I'll say it again

>

> **NOT EVERY BUILD IDEA DESERVES TO BE META** Just because you want to play a condi damage core revenant build using Jalis and Shiro doesnt mean Anet has failed when that build isn't considered meta. Yes, condi engie was once meta. So was dps Tempest. So was power base Thief. So was power Berserker. Things change. The game evolves. Some of these things will come back into vogue, some won't.

>

> Secondly, leave some meat on the bone for next elite spec. If condi engie becomes a top dps meta build, how could anet create a condi dps spec in the next expac that would functionally replace condi engie without later nerfing it? Leaving some niches unfilled for now gives the team room to design new specs in the future.

 

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

>

> > * In general, difficulty *should* "pay off" in damage. Otherwise there is no incentive to play more difficult builds and improve in the game. The opposite of this would be everyone sitting around a boss pressing 1 button until it's dead. This is not engaging gameplay. As a Holo, my rotation feels like I'm mashing 1 the whole time compared to Condi which is a delicate piano piece on the keyboard where any mistake affects your output.

>

> I'm going to disagree with you here. Within reason, all dps builds should bring the same amount of overall value regardless of difficulty. That said, any build that is afk braindead auto attack should be nerfed so you at least need to press buttons. This whole concept of harder builds should do more dps is so bad for the game in the grand scheme of things because what ends up happening is everyone ends up being forced to play the high skill highest damage build regardless of whether they are capable of playing it well or not and the overall productivity of the community goes down. I dont mean this as an insult to you at all since I dont know you, but I've heard this position stated to me so many times by so many different people and what I've found is that it often tends to be said by people who are trying to fluff their e-kitten or self-congratulate. Even if they aren't delusional, and have actually mastered a difficult build, they expect to be rewarded extra for it above and beyond the sense of a job well done.

>

> Also, another point I didn't bring up initially but holds rather true: this isnt worth the balance team's time. The two dozen or so (being extremely generous) people who are good enough to play condi engie at a benchmark level are not a very large segment of the community. How many hours and how much effort should go into developing for them specifically when there are major issues with builds like power reaper affect a much, much bigger segment of the community?

>

>

 

It depends obviously how big a difference we are all talking about between harder to play and more damage though, on the forums and internet in general people have the idea that this means an easy build does 15k while a harder build does 39k. If a harder to play build did maybe 5-10% more damage you have the trade off in the right spot in my opinion, especially if those builds suffer much more from mistakes. The only people this matters to are people wanting to set a record, if all you want is a reliable weekly clear just play what you’re comfortable with. Though you could argue I’d take teapot on power reaper any day over someone that’s just come back to the game after 2 years on weaver.

 

Another thing you didn’t bring up is what other aspects a build brings, to keep this relevant an engineer tends to bring water fields, heals, cleanses hard CC, blinds, immobilise and other soft CC, even more so with condi engineer. This type of utility does have to be accounted for in builds.

 

I do agree about reaper though, it could stand to do more sustained damage however I’m more concerned at how high the top end is going, I personally think the top end of damage (all builds really) could stand to come down a bit while many of these worse builds like power rev and power reaper are brought up to be much closer. Ideally while preserving a closeness of benchmarks and how each class is slightly better or easier on certain bosses.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

>

> > * In general, difficulty *should* "pay off" in damage. Otherwise there is no incentive to play more difficult builds and improve in the game. The opposite of this would be everyone sitting around a boss pressing 1 button until it's dead. This is not engaging gameplay. As a Holo, my rotation feels like I'm mashing 1 the whole time compared to Condi which is a delicate piano piece on the keyboard where any mistake affects your output.

>

> I'm going to disagree with you here. Within reason, all dps builds should bring the same amount of overall value regardless of difficulty. That said, any build that is afk braindead auto attack should be nerfed so you at least need to press buttons. This whole concept of harder builds should do more dps is so bad for the game in the grand scheme of things because what ends up happening is everyone ends up being forced to play the high skill highest damage build regardless of whether they are capable of playing it well or not and the overall productivity of the community goes down. I dont mean this as an insult to you at all since I dont know you, but I've heard this position stated to me so many times by so many different people and what I've found is that it often tends to be said by people who are trying to fluff their e-kitten or self-congratulate. Even if they aren't delusional, and have actually mastered a difficult build, they expect to be rewarded extra for it above and beyond the sense of a job well done.

>

> Also, another point I didn't bring up initially but holds rather true: this isnt worth the balance team's time. The two dozen or so (being extremely generous) people who are good enough to play condi engie at a benchmark level are not a very large segment of the community. How many hours and how much effort should go into developing for them specifically when there are major issues with builds like power reaper affect a much, much bigger segment of the community?

>

>

 

Unfortunately, the OP made the same complaint in the Engi forum ... and got the same answers. Condi Engi performance just isn't a problem worth Anet's time. Anet makes a variety of builds in diffculty and performance for good reason; to appeal to a wide cross section of players.

[thrag.9740]

did anyone make a purity of purpose joke yet?

 

In all seriousness, yeah its sad to see OP. Hopefully the next elite spec will be a suitable condi build. I wonder what condi holosmith can do? I know the forge has some burning on it.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> I've said it before but I'll say it again

>

> **NOT EVERY BUILD IDEA DESERVES TO BE META** Just because you want to play a condi damage core revenant build using Jalis and Shiro doesnt mean Anet has failed when that build isn't considered meta. Yes, condi engie was once meta. So was dps Tempest. So was power base Thief. So was power Berserker. Things change. The game evolves. Some of these things will come back into vogue, some won't.

>

> Secondly, leave some meat on the bone for next elite spec. If condi engie becomes a top dps meta build, how could anet create a condi dps spec in the next expac that would functionally replace condi engie without later nerfing it? Leaving some niches unfilled for now gives the team room to design new specs in the future.

 

That wouldn't matter. If you make Condi engi now a viable dps spec. You can make next elite a real good healer for example.

Not every new elite needs to more DPS than the one before.

 

But hard rotations should give better rewards than pretty easy rotations.

We'll now I can develop a rlly hard rotation for every class. Which would need to give huge buffs to all classes. No pls don't. Power creep is already here.

 

But if you have to do such a complex rotation for max DPS like core engi does, it should definetly get some buffs to be able to be on par with the not so complex rotations from ele or let's say warrior. Which is top DPS on small and big hitbox nowadays.

Well I tried condi-reaper a long time ago. When he was considered phalanx strenght.

And I thought it was pretty hard on some skills to get the right timing. Don't know if that's still the case. But someone told me that power spellbreakers isn't that hard to play. So there is absolutely no reason for spellbreakers doing so much DPS.

[NikeEU.7690]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

 

> It depends obviously how big a difference we are all talking about between harder to play and more damage though, on the forums and internet in general people have the idea that this means an easy build does 15k while a harder build does 39k. If a harder to play build did maybe 5-10% more damage you have the trade off in the right spot in my opinion, especially if those builds suffer much more from mistakes. The only people this matters to are people wanting to set a record, if all you want is a reliable weekly clear just play what you’re comfortable with. Though you could argue I’d take teapot on power reaper any day over someone that’s just come back to the game after 2 years on weaver.

 

Nah. What happens is pugs see SC benchmark showing XYZ difficult build as top dps by 5-10% and they run it exclusively regardless of their aptitude. This isnt a controversial statement we've seen it for the last 2 years every balance patch.

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

>

> > It depends obviously how big a difference we are all talking about between harder to play and more damage though, on the forums and internet in general people have the idea that this means an easy build does 15k while a harder build does 39k. If a harder to play build did maybe 5-10% more damage you have the trade off in the right spot in my opinion, especially if those builds suffer much more from mistakes. The only people this matters to are people wanting to set a record, if all you want is a reliable weekly clear just play what you’re comfortable with. Though you could argue I’d take teapot on power reaper any day over someone that’s just come back to the game after 2 years on weaver.

>

> Nah. What happens is pugs see SC benchmark showing XYZ difficult build as top dps by 5-10% and they run it exclusively regardless of their aptitude. This isnt a controversial statement we've seen it for the last 2 years every balance patch.

>

 

Those people are morons, I don’t care about them and neither should anyone else. If you think a 5-10% difference is a good thing between simple builds and more complex builds then you should advocate it.

[Ivantreil.3092]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

>

> > * In general, difficulty *should* "pay off" in damage. Otherwise there is no incentive to play more difficult builds and improve in the game. The opposite of this would be everyone sitting around a boss pressing 1 button until it's dead. This is not engaging gameplay. As a Holo, my rotation feels like I'm mashing 1 the whole time compared to Condi which is a delicate piano piece on the keyboard where any mistake affects your output.

>

> I'm going to disagree with you here. Within reason, all dps builds should bring the same amount of overall value regardless of difficulty. That said, any build that is afk braindead auto attack should be nerfed so you at least need to press buttons. This whole concept of harder builds should do more dps is so bad for the game in the grand scheme of things because what ends up happening is everyone ends up being forced to play the high skill highest damage build regardless of whether they are capable of playing it well or not and the overall productivity of the community goes down. I dont mean this as an insult to you at all since I dont know you, but I've heard this position stated to me so many times by so many different people and what I've found is that it often tends to be said by people who are trying to fluff their e-kitten or self-congratulate. Even if they aren't delusional, and have actually mastered a difficult build, they expect to be rewarded extra for it above and beyond the sense of a job well done.

>

> Also, another point I didn't bring up initially but holds rather true: this isnt worth the balance team's time. The two dozen or so (being extremely generous) people who are good enough to play condi engie at a benchmark level are not a very large segment of the community. How many hours and how much effort should go into developing for them specifically when there are major issues with builds like power reaper affect a much, much bigger segment of the community?

>

>

 

While i do agree on your first point regarding that difficulty shouldn't be bound onto how rewarding it is to play it (despite eles have been spitting this idea for years already, and you know it).

 

I have to disagree about not doing anything regarding to the current state of condi engi, if it isn't the change that we need, then what's the next thing for engi? Another 3 months or year of full power Holo?

 

Theres not any kind of condi iteration of engi working right now, neither core, scrapper, nor in holo.

 

And neither of those possible iterations have any kind of existence in any kind of game mode right now, why the hell it shouldn't recieve any kind of buff at all?

 

It's the best possible next change for the engies in my opinion.

 

Engi is nowhere near to have a viable support build, we received some great buffs to our healer build, but it's still widely seen as a cheesy build to play, and i heavily doubt Anet will touch it again for the rest of this expansion era.

 

We only share boons that are irrelevant for the raids setups, having a boon support build for engi would require a massive rework around it, something that i think they won't make any effort on happening at all.

 

 

My point is, we need something, we can't just only have holo all the time, holo by his nature will recieve a nerf soon or later (if they nerfed condi engi for the sake of making changes, they can pull this off on holo too), and we are simply sick of seeing holo being the only effective spec right now.

 

Condi engi is the best thing they could buff.

 

 

 

 

[NikeEU.7690]

As I already said, condi engie with the optimal rotation is beyond the capabilities of all but about 2 dozen players. Presumably a build that can only be played by so few players is NOT the best thing they could buff.