The real nerf mesmers need

[Airdive.2613]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> It's really just Phantasmal Disenchanter and Defender. None of our other utilities are pushing out much damage.

 

You're not wrong.

What I imply is sometimes you don't need much damage to tip the scales. Sometimes the frustrating part is dying when you could have barely survived with those extra 500 HP left.

It may seem insignificant, but it is adding damage where it initially didn't belong. Without additional tweaks you just increase overall damage output of a character, even if not for much, when it was already (hypothetically) perfectly balanced between offence and defence.

[Razor.6392]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> 'I don't know how to balance the class so let's just cut the HP pool'

> Nope. Problems lie deeper than that, sorry.

 

I didn't say that, nor did I say those were the only changes this class should get, but it would be a proper way to begin.

Power mesmers would never consider using berserker amulet again, for starters.

 

> @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > Base health.

> > >

> > > Coming from a fighting game background, the highly mobile and evasive characters with lots of tools are usually balanced by them having low health values. Sure they have a lot of mixups and offensive power, but they DIE if they mess up.

> > >

> > > In gw2, that is sort of the case with Thief.

> > >

> > > However, Mesmer for some reason has 15k base health and Thief has 10k, while Ele has 10k as well for some reason.

> > >

> > > Warrior and Necro having 19k makes sense, they facetank a lot of damage, though necro has it way worse - lacking any form of invulnerability whatsoever.

> > >

> > > In the 15k classes we have the balanced ones like Ranger, Engi, Rev and mesmer(???)

> > >

> > > 10k bracket we find Guard, who has a lot of blocks, mitigation and self healing traits and utilities. Thief a highly elusive class with huge evasion uptime and blinds plus stealth, and lastly... elementalist? an ok healer (not the best), an ok dmg dealer (not the best) with a very subpar amount of damage mitigation compared to the other 10k profs (obsi flesh and a few blocks, thats it).

> > >

> > > Ele and mesmer places should be swapped. I don't wanna turn this into a 'buff my class!!1' thread, but it is reasonable enough. Ele has almost no damage mitigation or mobility, while mesmer is on thief's level or **better**. If you want to keep some of that evasion, deception, sheer burst damage and mobility it would only be fair for the hp values to be swapped.

> > >

> > > Thoughts?

> >

> > Yes, I fully agree that elementalist should have the higher base health.

> >

> > Mesmer has too much utility when it comes to dueling other professions, like teleport, evades, blocks, invulnerability, stuns, dazes, stealth etc. Also, it has Blink which is similar to the elementalists' Lightning Flash, only it is a stun breaker, has a lower cooldown and it has increased range. I know that you can use Lightning Flash while you're stunned, but I would really like it if it was a stun breaker.

> >

> > Some will say that mesmer is supposed to be the best dueling profession, that no other profession should even think about dueling the mesmer. Lowering the base health would give other professions some chance to beat a mesmer like thief, elementalist and engineer. Elementalist may be the better burst/nuke profession, but guess what? So can the mesmer. I would argue that mesmer can do burst damage much better than the elementalist.

> >

> > In my opinion, in order to properly nerf the mesmer are as follows: either reduce the base health or reduce the amount of utility mesmer has when it comes to dueling other professions. Not being able to win a duel against a mesmer, no matter how much you try is something that I don't think any profession should have. Also, they shouldn't be able to win outnumbered fights.

>

> Except Lightning Flash is a damaging AoE spell.

It hits _1_ person.

 

 

[phokus.8934]

This is the worst idea I've read on these forums in quite some time.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> This is the worst idea I've read on these forums in quite some time.

 

You clearly don't check thieves forum! B)

[ugrakarma.9416]

Actually i can duel mesmer using a Scourge, crazy AoE condi spam and condi control and still it become a long duel. And notice the other classes dont have all this sort of condi control like staff #4,plague signet, punishment f2 etc

[Razor.6392]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> This is the worst idea I've read on these forums in quite some time.

 

I'm sorry to say your sense of balance is atrocious.

[Daishi.6027]

So are we also going to reduce thief armor too?

 

Ele has been in many meta over the years when it has been able to out heal burst from many classes (including mesmer). Giving it more HP is dangerous.

We have also seen metas where Warrior had more mobility than mesmer.

Baseline changes like those suggested above should not be made out of context of the current meta..

 

Also I don't know why people always ignore that thief has access to more on demand dodge than mesmer. Mesmer may have decent durations on mirage but it's still 2 dodges, BF, Distortion, and **maybe** a block.

It is WAY more likely to see Adventure runes + energy sigils removed or nerfed.

 

Please keep in mind balance is based on conquest not what you can achieve 1v1.

[phokus.8934]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > This is the worst idea I've read on these forums in quite some time.

>

> I'm sorry to say your sense of balance is atrocious.

 

Comparing nothing I said to a ridiculous idea that changing health pools is going to somehow balance things out?

 

I think I stepped into bizarro world in this forum topic.

 

 

[Vieux P.1238]

OMG are we still on mesmers? After all the nerfs this is a joke right?

[Razor.6392]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > This is the worst idea I've read on these forums in quite some time.

> >

> > I'm sorry to say your sense of balance is atrocious.

>

> Comparing nothing I said to a ridiculous idea that changing health pools is going to somehow balance things out?

>

> I think I stepped into bizarro world in this forum topic.

>

>

 

I never said this was _the_ only nerf they should get.

 

I think your reading comprehension also needs severe help.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Julius Seizure.4985" said:

> I think you are spot on. Mesmer either needs less full mitigation active skills (evades, blocks, distortion, etc) or it needs less hp. One is easier to change than the other too. ;P

>

> In fact, maybe selecting certain elite specs should alter base HP for all classes... (Not to hijack the thread.)

 

This is true, Elite specs should change the base health.

 

Also i think Stealth mechanics should be revised.

League of Legends did that by splitting stealth into 2 categories: Camouflage (which allows you to see enemies if they're to close to you) and pure invisibility.

In this case, if Mesmers could be seen if they're too close (as in within attack range of their ambushes) people could react.

Other tells (like Deadeyes DJ tell) for mesmer would improve counter-play a lot. The major problem with Mesmer is that it works with complete impunity, it can start a killing burst from stealth without warning or means to defend.

[michelada.2947]

I always wonder why a class that is supposed to be an assassin has so many defensive mechanics , blocks/evades , on top of that add the clone mechanic and stealth , the rol mesmers has is not well defined at all.

[phokus.8934]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > This is the worst idea I've read on these forums in quite some time.

> > >

> > > I'm sorry to say your sense of balance is atrocious.

> >

> > Comparing nothing I said to a ridiculous idea that changing health pools is going to somehow balance things out?

> >

> > I think I stepped into bizarro world in this forum topic.

> >

> >

>

> I never said this was _the_ only nerf they should get.

>

> I think your reading comprehension also needs severe help.

 

It's actually pretty clear in your original post. And I just pointed out that swapping health pools is ridiculous. So take your elementary school antics and come back when you have something of substance to write in response.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

 

> Also I don't know why people always ignore that thief has access to more on demand doge than mesmer. Mesmer may have decent durations on mirage but it's still 2 doges, BF, Distortion, and **maybe** a block.

> It is WAY more likely to see Adventure runes + energy sigils removed or nerfed.

>

> Please keep in mind balance is based on conquest not what you can achieve 1v1.

 

But thieves are the highest skill demanding profession on game! And thieves need to have asian reflexes to time their dodges! And thieves dodges should cost 15 endurance! And thieves are highly susceptible to cc! And backstab needs to get buffed to instakill, since it is a high risk skill! And... And...And...

 

(believe it or not, all of the above was said at least once on thieves' forums)

[LazySummer.2568]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Also I don't know why people always ignore that thief has access to more on demand doge than mesmer. Mesmer may have decent durations on mirage but it's still 2 doges, BF, Distortion, and **maybe** a block.

> It is WAY more likely to see Adventure runes + energy sigils removed or nerfed.

 

Probably because Mirage's dodges/invuls are superior than thieve's dodges in every way when you're allowed to perform any action you want instead of getting locked into an animation with the exception of Blurred Frenzy. Blurred Frenzy also has the longest dodge duration. Even the sword block on mesmer allows you to at least move freely and end it early for cc if your block didn't went through. Thieves also have limited amount of instant cast skills that they can combo with their dodges (mostly just steal, sometimes you can use Shadowstep utility with it but that comes with a huge risk as that's your best escape tool on 40~50s). It's really retarded to me how a mirage can just randomly BF and if they miss the attack, just jaunt onto you while simultaneously shatter once or twice for big damage (this combo is also spammable unlike thieve's steal/shadowstep combo). And let us not forget the worse offender - stunbreak on dodge - effectively the lowest cd stunbreak in game.

 

[Daishi.6027]

> @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > Also I don't know why people always ignore that thief has access to more on demand dodge than mesmer. Mesmer may have decent durations on mirage but it's still 2 dodges, BF, Distortion, and **maybe** a block.

> > It is WAY more likely to see Adventure runes + energy sigils removed or nerfed.

>

> Probably because Mirage's dodges/invuls are superior than thieve's dodges in every way when you're allowed to perform any action you want instead of getting locked into an animation with the exception of Blurred Frenzy. Blurred Frenzy also has the longest dodge duration. Even the sword block on mesmer allows you to at least move freely and end it early for cc if your block didn't went through. Thieves also have limited amount of instant cast skills that they can combo with their dodges (mostly just steal, sometimes you can use Shadowstep utility with it but that comes with a huge risk as that's your best escape tool on 40~50s). It's really kitten to me how a mirage can just randomly BF and if they miss the attack, just jaunt onto you while simultaneously shatter once or twice for big damage (this combo is also spammable unlike thieve's steal/shadowstep combo). And let us not forget the worse offender - stunbreak on dodge - effectively the lowest cd stunbreak in game.

>

 

 

It’s still only 2.

 

Also what instant cast skills matter or hurt? phantasms hurt but only are single use now, and have cast times + summon delays... Anything else used for the same shatter combo that has existed since release and not all of them are instant, still just as simple to dodge with any level of anticipation.

So... Surly you do not mean illusionary leap which isn’t even instant?

Or the dreaded phase retreat?!

Maybe chaos armor wasting 1 if it’s ticks while dodging?

GS has no instant skills so it can’t be that.

 

Jaunt + BF + face shatter is useless without clones to make up the damage that can easily be seen coming. Unless finishing a low HP target this is kind of a waste. Pistolwhip combos are easier, hit harder and more reliable than what you propose here.

I don’t know what you mean by spamable, they have cooldowns, and no other way to pressure on Sword set other than summoning a phantasm. it would be dumb to sit there in that weapon set waiting for it to come back, unless you are anticipating your opponent to not pressure for a good 10+ seconds.

 

Exhaust makes elusive mind more or less fair now, the cooldowns is taken by endurance so it would effectively have less dodge than thief for sure if breaking a stun. (I personally don’t use it anymore)

 

At the end of the day all classes have around 2 dodges, one long cooldown, and one short cooldown associated with the most commonly used kits. Mes falls in line with this.

Thief has way more and they can be strung together on a whim, with more than enough access to escape, and hits unaware players or those who cannot read just as hard as mes.

 

The only Mesmer build that over performs (like always) is condi, and that is the nature of condi it’s easy safe ramp + effective damage. Maybe Mesmer utalizies it better in 1v1 situations but to me that is still more of an issue with condi and less so Mesmer.

 

Just an anecdotal point: I have fought people who still complain about mes as double GS with no stealth, still crying it OP. That means No stun, no BF, no Block, all it has is the same two dodges and a target drop with shared cooldowns.

Players are just bad and don’t understand the class, don’t read, don’t anticipate, just die and cry OP.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> Base health.

>

> Coming from a fighting game background, the highly mobile and evasive characters with lots of tools are usually balanced by them having low health values. Sure they have a lot of mixups and offensive power, but they DIE if they mess up.

>

> In gw2, that is sort of the case with Thief.

>

> However, Mesmer for some reason has 15k base health and Thief has 10k, while Ele has 10k as well for some reason.

>

> Warrior and Necro having 19k makes sense, they facetank a lot of damage, though necro has it way worse - lacking any form of invulnerability whatsoever.

>

> In the 15k classes we have the balanced ones like Ranger, Engi, Rev and mesmer(???)

>

> 10k bracket we find Guard, who has a lot of blocks, mitigation and self healing traits and utilities. Thief a highly elusive class with huge evasion uptime and blinds plus stealth, and lastly... elementalist? an ok healer (not the best), an ok dmg dealer (not the best) with a very subpar amount of damage mitigation compared to the other 10k profs (obsi flesh and a few blocks, thats it).

>

> Ele and mesmer places should be swapped. I don't wanna turn this into a 'buff my class!!1' thread, but it is reasonable enough. Ele has almost no damage mitigation or mobility, while mesmer is on thief's level or **better**. If you want to keep some of that evasion, deception, sheer burst damage and mobility it would only be fair for the hp values to be swapped.

>

> Thoughts?

 

It's one thing that the mesmer-addicts often refuse to acknowledge, there is very very very little risk for high damage playing mesmer. It's like scourge, you don't exactly have to be good the first time. If you fail just try again. No punishment.

[Jalal.6783]

Damn right, good idea. That would fix everything

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> I always wonder why a class that is supposed to be an assassin has so many defensive mechanics , blocks/evades , on top of that add the clone mechanic and stealth , the rol mesmers has is not well defined at all.

 

Mesmer was never supposed to be an assassin. The closest profession in the game that is a confirmed rework of assassin is thief.

 

[https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief")

 

 

 

 

[Razor.6392]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > > This is the worst idea I've read on these forums in quite some time.

> > > >

> > > > I'm sorry to say your sense of balance is atrocious.

> > >

> > > Comparing nothing I said to a ridiculous idea that changing health pools is going to somehow balance things out?

> > >

> > > I think I stepped into bizarro world in this forum topic.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I never said this was _the_ only nerf they should get.

> >

> > I think your reading comprehension also needs severe help.

>

> It's actually pretty clear in your original post. And I just pointed out that swapping health pools is ridiculous. So take your elementary school antics and come back when you have something of substance to write in response.

 

The irony is killing me.

[LazySummer.2568]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > Also I don't know why people always ignore that thief has access to more on demand doge than mesmer. Mesmer may have decent durations on mirage but it's still 2 doges, BF, Distortion, and **maybe** a block.

> > > It is WAY more likely to see Adventure runes + energy sigils removed or nerfed.

> >

> > Probably because Mirage's dodges/invuls are superior than thieve's dodges in every way when you're allowed to perform any action you want instead of getting locked into an animation with the exception of Blurred Frenzy. Blurred Frenzy also has the longest dodge duration. Even the sword block on mesmer allows you to at least move freely and end it early for cc if your block didn't went through. Thieves also have limited amount of instant cast skills that they can combo with their dodges (mostly just steal, sometimes you can use Shadowstep utility with it but that comes with a huge risk as that's your best escape tool on 40~50s). It's really kitten to me how a mirage can just randomly BF and if they miss the attack, just jaunt onto you while simultaneously shatter once or twice for big damage (this combo is also spammable unlike thieve's steal/shadowstep combo). And let us not forget the worse offender - stunbreak on dodge - effectively the lowest cd stunbreak in game.

> >

>

>

> It’s still only 2.

>

> Also what instant cast skills matter or hurt? phantasms hurt but only are single use now, and have cast times + summon delays... Anything else used for the same shatter combo that has existed since release and not all of them are instant, still just as simple to doge with any level of anticipation.

> So... Surly you do not mean illusionary leap which isn’t even instant?

> Or the dreaded phase retreat?!

> Maybe chaos armor wasting 1 if it’s ticks while dodging?

> GS has no instant skills so it can’t be that.

>

> Jaunt + BF + face shatter is useless without clones to make up the damage that can easily be seen coming. Unless finishing a low HP target this is kind of a waste. Pistolwhip combos are easier, hit harder and more reliable than what you propose here.

> I don’t know what you mean by spamable, they have cooldowns, and no other way to pressure on Sword set other than summoning a phantasm. it would be dumb to sit there in that weapon set waiting for it to come back, unless you are anticipating your opponent to not pressure for a good 10+ seconds.

>

> Exhaust makes elusive mind more or less fair now, the cooldowns is taken by endurance so it would effectively have less doge than thief for sure if breaking a stun. (I personally don’t use it anymore)

>

> At the end of the day all classes have around 2 doges, one long cooldown, and one short cooldown associated with the most commonly used kits. Mes falls in line with this.

> Thief has way more and they can be strung together on a whim, with more than enough access to escape, and hits unaware players or those who cannot read just as hard as mes.

>

> The only Mesmer build that over performs (like always) is condi, and that is the nature of condi it’s easy safe ramp + effective damage. Maybe Mesmer utalizies it better in 1v1 situations but to me that is still more of an issue with condi and less so Mesmer.

>

> Just an anecdotal point: I have fought people who still complain about mes as double GS with no stealth, still crying it OP. That means No stun, no BF, no Block, all it has is the same two doges and a target drop with shared cooldowns.

> Players are just bad and don’t understand the class, don’t read, don’t anticipate, just die and cry OP.

 

Just because you think Jaunt + shatter combo is useless without clones (when both of those are literally instant casts and has no tells) or someone complaining about GS mirages doesn't mean mirages are not overtuned. Just take mirage vs base mesmer for example. Base mesmers have the same shatters but they don't have the luxury to do whatever they want during dodges or can just decide to teleport onto someone and shatter offensively repeatedly (as they only have a single, long cd blink). Defintely not stunbreaks on dodges which they have to make up for by taking extra breaks in utility slots. Plus I'm not even sure why you think pistolwhip + steal is comparable to Jaunt + shatter. Pistol whip has a clear startup motion that you can react to, and if you see the thief start it from a distance it's obvious he's going to follow up with a steal unless he wants to hit nothing. Jaunt + shatter can be used any time, with 0~3 clones and the best you can do is guess and hope you don't waste your dodges or just suffer the consequence of not dodging them. They are plenty spammable when mirage's combos are on the ~10s cds while thieve's are at ~20's cds because of steal (the double steal from sword is just as broken imo because it allows thieves to also spam these high pressure combos).

 

Instant cast attacks really should not be able to put that much pressure (thief's steal and mirage's combo are the worst offenders) on a target by themselves, but I dont think Anet balance team grasp that concept (or maybe they do considering that they've nerfed FA ele, but they just love to keep mesmers as is and leave that double steal on thief).

 

and yes, I know GS mirages is actually one of the more balanced builds, but that is exactly because their bursts/main damage have clear tells just like your pistolwhip+steal combo that you can react to. When I talk about mirages being op i'm also mainly referencing the condi ones.

 

Exhaust on Elusive Mind basically didn't change anything imo when sigil of energy and rune of adventurers are still around that replenishes endurance regardless of Exhaust. You're likely right though that removing these will be a good nerf against this trait.

 

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

It's the same formula for any class balance in the past 5 years. Dancing around issue, little bit of nerf here and there. Then when finally hit the right target, you get a disheveled class. Latest example being druid. If evade frame is the issue, getting 4k less is not going to solve it.

 

Same thing with what ele need really. Dancing around issue won't solve it. Weaver has plenty of evade coupled with healing, but animation feels chunky and the range is atrocious. Getting extra health is at best only help with tempest (which also suffers from main mechanic with long channel time). Reduce weaver animation time on several attacking skill and skill-wide buff at range is going to make the class a lot smoother than 4k more health, and heck even make attunement 3s is going to make huge QoL change. Sure 4k health allows ele to run berserker ammy more comfortably, but you still run into mechanical issue of going everything mediocre sword or easily exposed scepter due to 4s attunements.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> Base health.

>

> Coming from a fighting game background, the highly mobile and evasive characters with lots of tools are usually balanced by them having low health values. Sure they have a lot of mixups and offensive power, but they DIE if they mess up.

>

> In gw2, that is sort of the case with Thief.

>

> However, Mesmer for some reason has 15k base health and Thief has 10k, while Ele has 10k as well for some reason.

>

> Warrior and Necro having 19k makes sense, they facetank a lot of damage, though necro has it way worse - lacking any form of invulnerability whatsoever.

>

> In the 15k classes we have the balanced ones like Ranger, Engi, Rev and mesmer(???)

>

> 10k bracket we find Guard, who has a lot of blocks, mitigation and self healing traits and utilities. Thief a highly elusive class with huge evasion uptime and blinds plus stealth, and lastly... elementalist? an ok healer (not the best), an ok dmg dealer (not the best) with a very subpar amount of damage mitigation compared to the other 10k profs (obsi flesh and a few blocks, thats it).

>

> Ele and mesmer places should be swapped. I don't wanna turn this into a 'buff my class!!1' thread, but it is reasonable enough. Ele has almost no damage mitigation or mobility, while mesmer is on thief's level or **better**. If you want to keep some of that evasion, deception, sheer burst damage and mobility it would only be fair for the hp values to be swapped.

>

> Thoughts?

 

Which is absolutely true!

 

I mean these devs still think an ele can mitigate dmg by simply stacking healing power and calling it a day, it's not 2012 anymore but these devs don't get it....