Do Mesmer need more nerfs?

[DaShi.1368]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced:

>

> **Mirage Cloak**

> This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game...

>

> **Elusive Mind**

> A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely.

 

That's how mirage cloak is supposed to work. That's how all the elite specs work. They all give bonuses that the core either didn't have or are better than what they had.

 

I agree EM. I think the biggest problem with mirage is how hard it is to pin them down. Then when you actually do, they just EM out of it. That's where the reasonable frustration comes from. I have no idea why Anet keeps this trait as is. They should just remove the stun break. A long CD still allows them to use it about once per fight, which is still too good, given all the other stun breaks mesmer has. Losing conditions on dodge is good enough.

[lLobo.7960]

Yes,

 

Condi mirage is completely OP at the moment. The fact that clones hit for full condi dmg and that you can just spam all condis while keeping yourself in stealth (clones and phantasm attacks dont break stealth) and the stacks of burn, torment and confusion that can be piled over is insane.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"lLobo.7960" said:

> Yes,

>

> Condi mirage is completely OP at the moment. The fact that clones hit for full condi dmg and that you can just spam all condis while keeping yourself in stealth (clones and phantasm attacks dont break stealth) and the stacks of burn, torment and confusion that can be piled over is insane.

 

Mirage has a grand total of 8 seconds of viable stealth across 3 skills, all of which have a base cooldown of at least 30 seconds. Since Blink and Portal are must haves, that leaves one slot open for another stealth skill which means the maximum of stealth you realistically have to face is 6 seconds. Unless for some reason they take Mass Invisibility, arguably the worst Mesmer elite.

 

Clones hit for full condition damage because they'd be absolutely terrible if they did any less, see the Scepter Ambush, clones still have the same condition damage but the condition duration for that skill is halved, it's the worst condition based ambush by a wide margin.

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Mirage's being able to dodge while CC'd is what makes them so broken. This alone removes basically removes counterplay and negates any reward you'd get from timing your skills well.

>

> Killing a mirage is about applying so much pressure nonstop that maybe, eventually, possibly, they'll start to go down. However, even then they can just sword ambush, portal, blink, or jaunt their way out of a fight while still maintaining enough damage to 1 shot you with either power or condi.

 

A fine descripton in a nutshell. I am rusty as of late, but I've been dueling some recently on the new arena. I could win against a mirage only when they happened to make a mistake which, even then, was a tough call to exploit. Now it's not really about being OP or not OP but the fact that developers allow the sheer concept of mirage to enter PvP and WvW at all. You cannot hope for a good outcome in a gamemode that has a completely different set of rules than PvE. If Anet ever wanted to at least START going in the right direction, they should consider removing or altering certain mechanics to suit PvP. But I don't expect them to do so, as they have already stated that they will only tweak numbers, but not change mechanics, which is a grave error from the start.

 

P.S.

Yes, I am aware of the spaghetti coding, thus certain core issues might not be fixed nor altered at all.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced:

>

> **Mirage Cloak**

> This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game...

>

> **Elusive Mind**

> A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely.

 

Mirage having an improved dodge is literally the class mechanic. The trade off is all the stuff provided by chronomancer or any one of the core trait lines that would be nice but can't afford to run with Mirage. Are you angry about daredevils having three dodge rolls because three is a direct upgrade to two?

 

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> Jaunt needs to have most of its damage stripped away. It's a repositioning / movement tool, not something that should contribute to the already high mirage nuke potential.

 

It already has most of the damage stripped from it.

 

> @"lLobo.7960" said:

> Yes,

>

> Condi mirage is completely OP at the moment. The fact that clones hit for full condi dmg and that you can just spam all condis while keeping yourself in stealth (clones and phantasm attacks dont break stealth) and the stacks of burn, torment and confusion that can be piled over is insane.

 

Clones explicitly do not hit for full condi damage with the exception of staff. Infinite Horizon is also rarely run in PvP. In Axe's case it applies 1/3 of the condition stacks. In scepter's case it's duration is 50% the player's duration.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced:

> >

> > **Mirage Cloak**

> > This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game...

> >

> > **Elusive Mind**

> > A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely.

>

> Mirage having an improved dodge is literally the class mechanic. The trade off is all the stuff provided by chronomancer or any one of the core trait lines that would be nice but can't afford to run with Mirage. Are you angry about daredevils having three dodge rolls because three is a direct upgrade to two?

>

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > Jaunt needs to have most of its damage stripped away. It's a repositioning / movement tool, not something that should contribute to the already high mirage nuke potential.

>

> It already has most of the damage stripped from it.

>

> > @"lLobo.7960" said:

> > Yes,

> >

> > Condi mirage is completely OP at the moment. The fact that clones hit for full condi dmg and that you can just spam all condis while keeping yourself in stealth (clones and phantasm attacks dont break stealth) and the stacks of burn, torment and confusion that can be piled over is insane.

>

> Clones explicitly do not hit for full condi damage with the exception of staff. Infinite Horizon is also rarely run in PvP. In Axe's case it applies 1/3 of the condition stacks. In scepter's case it's duration is 50% the player's duration.

 

And Druid having Celestial Avatar is literally the class mechanic. This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not this mechanic is broken or not.

 

Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I only see 2 more changes needed at this point:

 

* Phantasms should have their own separate cap, because they are being spammed way too much, leading to excessive visual clutter. Removing them from the clone cpa was good, but they still need their own cap. Once that's done there may be need to increase their power since only 3 at a time would be possible, though.

* Mirage Cloak should not allow using any skill other than Ambushes, Deceptions, and skills that core mesmer can use during a dodgeroll like skills with 0 activation time. They can avoid being interrupted way too much, and that should be Didstortion's job. Having both Distortion and Mirage Cloak letting them activate all their skills uninterrupted is not good.

[flog.3485]

Some suggestion about nerfing elusive mind, along with the need to suppress the mechanic of dodge when cc as well in overall, except for the elite skill.

I would rework elusive mind to be called elusive defense. The trait would still keep the mechanic of having condition clear when using the dodge key.

The new effect would be this imo:

For the next three seconds after successfully evading an attack by virtue of an ambush skill, the next incoming attack skill is blocked. 10 seconds cooldown.

 

Some important points to notice here with my suggestion:

-unblockable attacks is a big counter to this mechanic.

-multiple attacks (such as revenant staff 5) in one attack skill won’t be neutered for their full duration.

-auto attack rotations do not qualify as an attack skill

-the opportunity of block will be proc’ced after only taking into account the attack(s) that occur during the animation of ambush attack skill. You can not proc its effect if you are only using the dodge key.

-the trait goes into cooldown when using the ambush skill. (When in combat obviously)

This trait would require a visual clue for players to know that the next attack skill will be blocked so I would suggest that a floating crystal appear over the head of a mesmer player character when the effect is proc’ced.

 

I specifically avoided giving aegis after an ambush skill because less boon spam is better imo, even though it is quite the same effect.

I believe this new iteration fits the theme of a duelist which relies on short term advantages with relatively long cooldown.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced:

> > >

> > > **Mirage Cloak**

> > > This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game...

> > >

> > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely.

> >

> > Mirage having an improved dodge is literally the class mechanic. The trade off is all the stuff provided by chronomancer or any one of the core trait lines that would be nice but can't afford to run with Mirage. Are you angry about daredevils having three dodge rolls because three is a direct upgrade to two?

> >

> > > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > Jaunt needs to have most of its damage stripped away. It's a repositioning / movement tool, not something that should contribute to the already high mirage nuke potential.

> >

> > It already has most of the damage stripped from it.

> >

> > > @"lLobo.7960" said:

> > > Yes,

> > >

> > > Condi mirage is completely OP at the moment. The fact that clones hit for full condi dmg and that you can just spam all condis while keeping yourself in stealth (clones and phantasm attacks dont break stealth) and the stacks of burn, torment and confusion that can be piled over is insane.

> >

> > Clones explicitly do not hit for full condi damage with the exception of staff. Infinite Horizon is also rarely run in PvP. In Axe's case it applies 1/3 of the condition stacks. In scepter's case it's duration is 50% the player's duration.

>

> And Druid having Celestial Avatar is literally the class mechanic. This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not this mechanic is broken or not.

>

> Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

Wanting Mirage Cloak to be functionally worse at evading than standard dodge rolls like you guys want is a terrible idea.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Dodge while stunned is OP? You realize that when its done this way, it removed the stunned but gives them a penalty to endurance regeneration right?

 

I dont run it (Elusive Mind) due to the penalty as the con outweighs the bonus imo, however its far from OP. Pre nerf I would agree was unbalanced for sure.

[saerni.2584]

Probably the biggest issue is that a mirage can always dodge regardless of what their opponent does. It also lasts a longer time making the mirage able to mitigate burst more effectively. Finally, by design, the specialization can counter attack during the evade so counter pressure also serves to reduce overall incoming damage for the mirage.

 

Individually, these are powerful. Add them together and it becomes very difficult to fight against. Before, you could immobilize or cc to prevent a dodge. Now the first never works and the second only disables skills but still allows an evade. Further, EM makes the cc almost completely useless with no internal cooldown. The only countermeasure is exhaustion of endurance. Without exhaustion on EM, the means for an opponent to have an impact are limited to chaining high impact “must dodge” abilities from relative safety from counter attack.

 

Ironically, mirage taking EM gives opponents a, extremely limited, opportunity to counterplay with the exhaustion mechanic. But, most of the time EM won’t be removing a hard cc and will just be cleansing a condition. So even taking EM won’t consistently allow smart counterplay. And that counterplay mechanic isn’t applicable to the core issue (evade while immobile and cc’d).

 

I’m critical of posts that complain without offering a concrete suggestion to adjust a trait or skill. Changes to phantasm damage came out of complaints that pDefender was spiking to 14k. Here, I’d likewise suggest a specific issue that needs to be resolved:

 

Remove the ability to dodge while immobilized or cc’d unless EM is taken. Dodge while immobilized using EM should inflict Minor Exhaustion while breaking stun should apply regular exhaustion.

 

Keep the one second duration of mirage evade. Keep the damage where it is at.

 

 

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > > Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced:

> > > >

> > > > **Mirage Cloak**

> > > > This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game...

> > > >

> > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > > A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely.

> > >

> > > Mirage having an improved dodge is literally the class mechanic. The trade off is all the stuff provided by chronomancer or any one of the core trait lines that would be nice but can't afford to run with Mirage. Are you angry about daredevils having three dodge rolls because three is a direct upgrade to two?

> > >

> > > > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > > Jaunt needs to have most of its damage stripped away. It's a repositioning / movement tool, not something that should contribute to the already high mirage nuke potential.

> > >

> > > It already has most of the damage stripped from it.

> > >

> > > > @"lLobo.7960" said:

> > > > Yes,

> > > >

> > > > Condi mirage is completely OP at the moment. The fact that clones hit for full condi dmg and that you can just spam all condis while keeping yourself in stealth (clones and phantasm attacks dont break stealth) and the stacks of burn, torment and confusion that can be piled over is insane.

> > >

> > > Clones explicitly do not hit for full condi damage with the exception of staff. Infinite Horizon is also rarely run in PvP. In Axe's case it applies 1/3 of the condition stacks. In scepter's case it's duration is 50% the player's duration.

> >

> > And Druid having Celestial Avatar is literally the class mechanic. This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not this mechanic is broken or not.

> >

> > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> Wanting Mirage Cloak to be functionally worse at evading than standard dodge rolls like you guys want is a terrible idea.

 

No one said we wanted Mirage Cloak to be worse than evading compared to a standard dodge.

 

It shouldn't be able to evade while cc'd, and the stunbreak from Elusive Mind should be gone. It already lasts longer than a normal dodge, provides immunity to soft cc, allows you to attack while evading, and it gives you special ambush skills as well. These alone already make them much stronger than normal dodges.

 

Removing the ability to dodge while cc'd would be a very well received and healthy change to the game whilst still maintaining all of these other benefits.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > > > Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced:

> > > > >

> > > > > **Mirage Cloak**

> > > > > This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game...

> > > > >

> > > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > > > A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely.

> > > >

> > > > Mirage having an improved dodge is literally the class mechanic. The trade off is all the stuff provided by chronomancer or any one of the core trait lines that would be nice but can't afford to run with Mirage. Are you angry about daredevils having three dodge rolls because three is a direct upgrade to two?

> > > >

> > > > > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > > > Jaunt needs to have most of its damage stripped away. It's a repositioning / movement tool, not something that should contribute to the already high mirage nuke potential.

> > > >

> > > > It already has most of the damage stripped from it.

> > > >

> > > > > @"lLobo.7960" said:

> > > > > Yes,

> > > > >

> > > > > Condi mirage is completely OP at the moment. The fact that clones hit for full condi dmg and that you can just spam all condis while keeping yourself in stealth (clones and phantasm attacks dont break stealth) and the stacks of burn, torment and confusion that can be piled over is insane.

> > > >

> > > > Clones explicitly do not hit for full condi damage with the exception of staff. Infinite Horizon is also rarely run in PvP. In Axe's case it applies 1/3 of the condition stacks. In scepter's case it's duration is 50% the player's duration.

> > >

> > > And Druid having Celestial Avatar is literally the class mechanic. This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not this mechanic is broken or not.

> > >

> > > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> > Wanting Mirage Cloak to be functionally worse at evading than standard dodge rolls like you guys want is a terrible idea.

>

> No one said we wanted Mirage Cloak to be worse than evading compared to a standard dodge.

>

> It shouldn't be able to evade while cc'd, and the stunbreak from Elusive Mind should be gone. It already lasts longer than a normal dodge, provides immunity to soft cc, allows you to attack while evading, and it gives you special ambush skills as well. These alone already make them much stronger than normal dodges.

>

> Removing the ability to dodge while cc'd would be a very well received and healthy change to the game whilst still maintaining all of these other benefits.

 

I agree that removing the ability to dodge while CC'd and Elusive Mind need to go. But I vehemently disagree with reducing the duration of Mirage Cloak back down to .75 seconds like pretty much everyone in here is suggesting. The buff in duration is important for accounting for invincibility frames lost as a result of the loss in mobility cause by only being able to evade in 3/8 directions at full speed. .75 duration makes Mirage Cloak objectively worse than standard dodge rolls for the purpose of evading.

[zoopop.5630]

is this really a thing right now? Mirage "dodge" ability is 10x better then a normal dodge even without EM.....

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> is this really a thing right now? Mirage "dodge" ability is 10x better then a normal dodge even without EM.....

 

Nah. There was a reason Mirage was widely considered hot garbage during the demo weekend in both PvP and PvE and the way Mirage Cloak operates limits your mobility while evading while having the same number of frames as a regular dodge was a huge part of it. Everyone hated Mirage from casual PvEers to top mesmer PvPers.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > > > > Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **Mirage Cloak**

> > > > > > This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > > > > A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mirage having an improved dodge is literally the class mechanic. The trade off is all the stuff provided by chronomancer or any one of the core trait lines that would be nice but can't afford to run with Mirage. Are you angry about daredevils having three dodge rolls because three is a direct upgrade to two?

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > > > > > Jaunt needs to have most of its damage stripped away. It's a repositioning / movement tool, not something that should contribute to the already high mirage nuke potential.

> > > > >

> > > > > It already has most of the damage stripped from it.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"lLobo.7960" said:

> > > > > > Yes,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Condi mirage is completely OP at the moment. The fact that clones hit for full condi dmg and that you can just spam all condis while keeping yourself in stealth (clones and phantasm attacks dont break stealth) and the stacks of burn, torment and confusion that can be piled over is insane.

> > > > >

> > > > > Clones explicitly do not hit for full condi damage with the exception of staff. Infinite Horizon is also rarely run in PvP. In Axe's case it applies 1/3 of the condition stacks. In scepter's case it's duration is 50% the player's duration.

> > > >

> > > > And Druid having Celestial Avatar is literally the class mechanic. This doesn't have anything to do with whether or not this mechanic is broken or not.

> > > >

> > > > Celestial Avatar got nerfed because it was too strong and carries bad players, Mirage is basically the same way.

> > > Wanting Mirage Cloak to be functionally worse at evading than standard dodge rolls like you guys want is a terrible idea.

> >

> > No one said we wanted Mirage Cloak to be worse than evading compared to a standard dodge.

> >

> > It shouldn't be able to evade while cc'd, and the stunbreak from Elusive Mind should be gone. It already lasts longer than a normal dodge, provides immunity to soft cc, allows you to attack while evading, and it gives you special ambush skills as well. These alone already make them much stronger than normal dodges.

> >

> > Removing the ability to dodge while cc'd would be a very well received and healthy change to the game whilst still maintaining all of these other benefits.

>

> I agree that removing the ability to dodge while CC'd and Elusive Mind need to go. But I vehemently disagree with reducing the duration of Mirage Cloak back down to .75 seconds like pretty much everyone in here is suggesting. The buff in duration is important for accounting for invincibility frames lost as a result of the loss in mobility cause by only being able to evade in 3/8 directions at full speed. .75 duration makes Mirage Cloak objectively worse than standard dodge rolls for the purpose of evading.

 

I think the current duration is fine. Removing the ability to dodge while CC'd and stunbreak on EM would be a healthy change.

[coro.3176]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced:

> >

> > **Mirage Cloak**

> > This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game...

> >

> > **Elusive Mind**

> > A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely.

>

> Mirage cloak is supposed to be an upgrade to dodge. It's the class mechanic for the Mirage spec. Does reaper have to trait to use shroud? It's bad enough you have to use a grandmaster trait to get your clones to ambush with you! I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with it or that it can't be adjusted, but I disagree with your basic assumption that Mirage Cloak should be on par with the standard dodge.

>

> I agree entirely on EM. It's just a stupid idea to give mirage stun break on dodge. They don't need it. Replace this trait with something completely different.

 

The thing with the elite spec class mechanics is that if they add/upgrade stuff and take nothing away, they will never be balanced with the base spec (eg. Druid CA. It just adds a whole suite of healing skills and doesn't take anything away from base ranger). At least with Reaper and Scourge, the entire shroud mechanic is replaced, so those skills can in principle be balanced with the core. I mean, you can argue that they're not balanced, but at least they CAN in principle be balanced.

 

Anyway, I probably shouldn't have brought it up.

 

EM is the biggest balance problem, and if they remove/change that, it'd go a long way toward balancing the spec.

[Susy.7529]

Yes they need huge nerfs to both pvp and pve.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > Mirage has a couple mechanics that are broken and need addressing if the spec is ever meant to be balanced:

> > >

> > > **Mirage Cloak**

> > > This is a strict upgrade to dodge. There's no tradeoff. It's just better. The only way I can see to balance it would be to severely nerf the mirage traitline, so that getting mirage cloak would mean that you'd be sacrificing something by having the rest of the traits be pretty bad. That way, you choose: powerful dodge mechanic, weak traits, or normal dodge mechanic, normal traits. Instead, we have probably the most OP trait in the game...

> > >

> > > **Elusive Mind**

> > > A lot of builds rely on locking down their opponent with CC. A lot of these CCs are hard to land and have long cooldowns. The fact that a mirage can be hit by these, but then instantly get out of them and become invulnerable AND cleanse a condi AND all with NO ICD on the trait is absolutely ridiculous. Consider that stunbreak traits are usually gated by ICDs of over 1 minute. Mirage can do this gated only by endurance (realistically, probably 4-6 times a minute). This is on a class that already has a full complement of "normal" skill stunbreaks. Opponents are taking risks and expending a cooldown to attempt to cc the mesmer. If they succeed, the mesmer just undoes it all with a dodge (which will regenerate much faster than the original cc). How did this make it through testing? I suggest putting a high ICD on this trait (like, 45 seconds, minimum) or just removing it entirely.

> >

> > Mirage cloak is supposed to be an upgrade to dodge. It's the class mechanic for the Mirage spec. Does reaper have to trait to use shroud? It's bad enough you have to use a grandmaster trait to get your clones to ambush with you! I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with it or that it can't be adjusted, but I disagree with your basic assumption that Mirage Cloak should be on par with the standard dodge.

> >

> > I agree entirely on EM. It's just a stupid idea to give mirage stun break on dodge. They don't need it. Replace this trait with something completely different.

>

> The thing with the elite spec class mechanics is that if they add/upgrade stuff and take nothing away, they will never be balanced with the base spec (eg. Druid CA. It just adds a whole suite of healing skills and doesn't take anything away from base ranger). At least with Reaper and Scourge, the entire shroud mechanic is replaced, so those skills can in principle be balanced with the core. I mean, you can argue that they're not balanced, but at least they CAN in principle be balanced.

>

> Anyway, I probably shouldn't have brought it up.

>

> EM is the biggest balance problem, and if they remove/change that, it'd go a long way toward balancing the spec.

 

I agree. Not only is EM an obvious choice, it hits only Mirage and only in PvP/WvW builds where it has an unfair impact in the first place. It's a surgical strike that will help introduce better counterplay to Mirage builds. Will that be the magic fix to Mirage? I doubt it. But I'd rather see where we go from there than potentially destroy the spec across the board right now by nerfing the entire Mirage Cloak mechanic that the build is built around into the ground.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> Dodge while stunned is OP? You realize that when its done this way, it removed the stunned but gives them a penalty to endurance regeneration right?

>

> I dont run it (Elusive Mind) due to the penalty as the con outweighs the bonus imo, however its far from OP. Pre nerf I would agree was unbalanced for sure.

 

Does the exhaustion stop Energy sigil regains or Adventurer runes or "To the Limit" from Warrior?

[incisorr.9502]

mirage is way too overloaded

 

mesmer/chrono is fine..

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > Dodge while stunned is OP? You realize that when its done this way, it removed the stunned but gives them a penalty to endurance regeneration right?

> >

> > I dont run it (Elusive Mind) due to the penalty as the con outweighs the bonus imo, however its far from OP. Pre nerf I would agree was unbalanced for sure.

>

> Does the exhaustion stop Energy sigil regains or Adventurer runes or "To the Limit" from Warrior?

 

Iirc warrior doesnt have exhaustion, therefore that point is moot

 

The rest still doesnt make sense in the context of the topic. Exhaustion slows it all down as intended, therefore they are not getting full effect of them.

 

In any context, reducing endurance regen 100% is deadly regardless of what runes/sigils they are running. The sigil/Rune you mentioned doesnt affect the regen as it gives a player a flat amount. The comment I made was purely for the Elusive Mind trait and its major drawback for a mirage that typically relies on endurance. Any outside factor (sigils/runes...etc) doesnt count as those same factors can be applied to anyone and any build whereas the trait is Mirage exclusive on top of the fact that its the trait itself in question.

[Kraitan.8476]

Is this title even a question?

[Allarius.5670]

I think the primary issue with Mesmer in a general sense is their ability to cast multiple effects in very nearly the same packet of time. This stems from the instant cast nature of shatters. On their own, shatters have moderately useful effects, but through traits can be tailored to become incredibly powerful.

 

That is the hallmark of the Mesmer's playstyle, and I wouldn't want to take that away. However, as the underpinning of what makes Mesmer difficult to balance time and time again, I would suggest it needs a review. The goal wouldn't be to gut the Mesmer, but to open its rotations to allow more clear lines of counterpressure regardless of build or elite specialization.

 

These would not be large cast times, just long enough to provide more accessible counterplay to the population at all levels of gameplay. For example, Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration as 0.25-0.5 sec, Diversion as 0.25 sec, and Distortion and Continuum Split remain instant cast.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Allarius.5670" said:

> I think the primary issue with Mesmer in a general sense is their ability to cast multiple effects in very nearly the same packet of time. This stems from the instant cast nature of shatters. On their own, shatters have moderately useful effects, but through traits can be tailored to become incredibly powerful.

>

> That is the hallmark of the Mesmer's playstyle, and I wouldn't want to take that away. However, as the underpinning of what makes Mesmer difficult to balance time and time again, I would suggest it needs a review. The goal wouldn't be to gut the Mesmer, but to open its rotations to allow more clear lines of counterpressure regardless of build or elite specialization.

>

> These would not be large cast times, just long enough to provide more accessible counterplay to the population at all levels of gameplay. For example, Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration as 0.25-0.5 sec, Diversion as 0.25 sec, and Distortion and Continuum Split remain instant cast.

 

Okay, but only if you remove travel time from clones.