My opinion about raids

[Ashantara.8731]

**1. Elitism:** you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

 

**2. Trainings:** what fun is it to have to _train_ for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

 

**3. "Save Points":** you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

 

It's just frustrating. Today, I was _really_ in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a _full_ raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

 

Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

[Feanor.2358]

Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

[CptAurellian.9537]

1) isn't a problem with raids, it's a problem of the pug community and can be solved very easily: don't pug, get a proper group.

2) Amazing, someone complaining that there are offers for training runs in the most challenging PvE content in this game. If you're good enough, feel free to jump directly into the action, but please don't complain if you get kicked when it isn't as easy as you thought.

3) Saving IDs based on boss progression inside the raid is absolute standard. The way GW2 does it, having just loot-lock instead of a hard-lock for IDs, is already much better than other games I've played. Besides, a) there are quite some runs of full wings and b) most people will be very happy not to have to kill the first boss(es) again if they had to end a raid session early.

 

So no, there's no need for ANet to do anything about these aspects, since they're fine.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

 

And how so? I am a fast learner, I adapt quickly, and I enjoy a good challenge. I am just sick and tired of having to be "elite" by providing proof of my skill through hours spent in said content. There must be a way for casual raiders to have a place in this type of content as well.

 

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> 2) Amazing, someone complaining that there are offers for training runs in the most challenging PvE content in this game.

 

I wasn't complaining about training runs, I was complaining that - if you don't have the "proper" LI and KP - you are forced to always join training runs, which gets boring.

[yann.1946]

We'll 1 and 2 are side effects of content being considered hard. How do you suggest they fix it?

 

Their are runs which do a full clear. Removing the davepoints probably Will increased problem 1.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

>

> And how so? I am a fast learner, I adapt quickly, and I enjoy a good challenge. I am just sick and tired of having to be "elite" by providing proof of my skill through hours spent in said content. There must be a way for casual raiders to have a place in this type of content as well.

You are wrong, there are several such ways: just open your own lfg or join a proper guild, for example.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

>

> And how so?

 

Because you don't seem to understand what's fun about them. I'm referring to your point 2.

[Voltekka.2375]

This again, huh

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Pugging is the worst experience GW2 has to offer I've seen in any online game yet. However, if you get into static group e.g. by joining a proper guild, you will find this content is really good. I'm already enjoying daily fractal CM runs and soon I'm going to start regular raid runs.

 

Just don't pug. Every player in LFG believes he's the top dog of gw2.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> **1. Elitism:** you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

 

As others have said, you absolutely can. Look for a "raid training" guild, or a casual raiding guild, or whatever. They exist, they just don't organize through the LFG system.

 

> **2. Trainings:** what fun is it to have to _train_ for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

 

"Training" raids are the real thing. Do you remember how you learned to dodge things, and how to fight tougher enemies, and that sort of thing, by playing the game? Welp, welcome to exactly what a training raid is all about. Raids demand various knowledge and skills that you learn by doing the raids, and failing, until you *and everyone else* gets it right.

 

It isn't just your skill here, either: it is the ability to work with the group, to execute the *group* strategy correctly. You can't just run around in the fight and do your own thing, you gotta do the mechanics. A raid can't be completed without that.

 

If you feel that it is offensive to your skill, and your intellect, you are welcome to do so, but ... this is not content designed for everyone to casually access from moment zero. It is designed to be a test, among other things, of group and individual skill **at that specific raid boss**.

 

> Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

 

Their raid design is the raid design from every MMO: group content, demanding of group coordination to succeed.

 

GW2 players, like every MMO, also include people who throw up "pick up groups" into LFG, and grab people they expect to be able to clear the content without that coordination being explicit, because they know it well enough already.

 

This isn't a raid design problem, it is an expectations problem, and possibly a communication problem.

[Blocki.4931]

There is no other way to have this content in the game. You WILL have to train for it, because the entire progression, the entire idea behind it is based on actually beating the content. Why should it be easy, why should it be freely accessible. It's like saying because something new comes out you shouldn't be required to learn it because you've managed to play through the game to that point.

 

It's a little sad that it's simply how mmo communities work, but if you're relying on pugs and they can't carry their own weight then they don't deserve the clear. It's as simple as that. Half the elitism claims that are made are from players who don't try to learn or improve, or they simply misunderstand the frustration caused by a group that went through a dozen different players who all quit after one wipe, who all had to get a new explanation of how things work, who all didn't show any will to improve.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

 

Any suggestions?

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

LFR like WoW. Looking for re .. ah ... raid.

 

I love raiding in other mmos. have several realm first in wow. but somehow i dont want to raid in gw2.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Stalkingwolf.6035" said:

> LFR like WoW. Looking for re .. ah ... raid.

>

> I love raiding in other mmos. have several realm first in wow. but somehow i dont want to raid in gw2.

 

Then don't. Only ever do something in a game if you like it. Otherwise there's no point.

[Moogri.1935]

Sometimes commanders of lfgs with requirements don't actually check because they have keen senses and a dps meter so they'll be able to tell if a person isn't performing well. If you can't sqeeze into one of those groups and not raise any red flags then maybe you should humble yourself and join a few training runs or just create one yourself.

 

And training runs aren't all too bad sometimes. Sometimes experienced raiders join training runs to practice another class or just for fun and carry the group to victory.

 

Also training IS part of the fun - experienced players are technically training whenever a new wing is released or doing CM runs. And this goes to show that even the most experienced and best players in the community still need to train due to the challenging group content. I don't think anyone has one shot any raid bosses upon release.

 

You say that you're a fast learner, adapt quickly, and enjoy a good challenge, but if you're as good as you say you are, then create your own group and lead them to victory. If more casual raiders did this then there wouldn't be so much of a problem - if there's such a stigma with the word "training", then just make more "casual" lfgs. Put yourself in the shoes of the commander, what will your lfg description be like? Will you put "chill casual run"? Or are you gonna do the same as most commanders out there and put a minimum requirement?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Stalkingwolf.6035" said:

> LFR like WoW. Looking for re .. ah ... raid.

>

> I love raiding in other mmos. have several realm first in wow. but somehow i dont want to raid in gw2.

 

There is a thread about that here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1

 

However, that doesn't fix the OP's issues. 1 ("Elitism") &2 ("Training") apply to Fractal CMs as well and Fractals have more than enough difficulty tiers, yet CMs experience the exact same "issues" as Raids. There is "KP request" there and there is also a high need for training there too.

 

That's if by LFR you meant an easy mode version of Raids.

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Stalkingwolf.6035" said:

> > LFR like WoW. Looking for re .. ah ... raid.

> >

> > I love raiding in other mmos. have several realm first in wow. but somehow i dont want to raid in gw2.

>

> There is a thread about that here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/18677/do-raids-need-easy-normal-hard-difficulty-mode-merged/p1

>

> However, that doesn't fix the OP's issues. 1 ("Elitism") &2 ("Training") apply to Fractal CMs as well and Fractals have more than enough difficulty tiers, yet CMs experience the exact same "issues" as Raids. There is "KP request" there and there is also a high need for training there too.

>

> That's if by LFR you meant an easy mode version of Raids.

 

LFR was a joke. it destroyed a lot in WoW. 4 difficult modes made more problems then solved something.

what i meant was that gw2 is great without raiding. other games are raid or die.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

oh btw it's not raid design problem, raids are fine, all those artificial gates you talk about are created by other people, good luck with changing people :)

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> oh btw it's not raid design problem, raids are fine, all those artificial gates you talk about are created by other people, good luck with changing people :)

 

Ah yes, simple solution, get rid of the people and the problems go away. ?

[nia.4725]

1) You won't find an _experienced_ group that will take you with them if you don't have LI, KP and so on. No LI/KP groups are few, but if you can't find one you can always create your own. You can't blame experienced people for wanting experienced players in their runs.

 

2) Of course you have to train. It's challenging content, so you need to train in order to be able to beat the content. Wth. "But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill" isn't true. No one is offending anyone. Raid bosses have specific mechanics and you won't know how to deal with them unless you have trained them beforehand. Try knowing 0 about Deimos and going for it with a group that knows 0 about him as well, see what happens.

 

3) Raid wings can be long to clear. The more experienced you are the less time you'll need to clear a whole wing, but sometimes you get stucked at a boss. Those save points are absolutely necessary. Again, if you aren't happy with LFG listings create your own squad. Players don't have to create the runs you would like to join. Also, rewards are based on the first boss kill of the week. Having to kill again a boss would be a torture and you wouldn't get more than 3 bags of gear. It doesn't make sense.

 

Raids aren't open world content where you can go whenever with whatever you see on the LFG. When you join a group you're playing with a small group of people. You can't expect them to take you if you don't know what you're doing.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

the raids are not badly designed, they are designed well for a specific audience. Discussions about offering a style of raiding (as well as above) that everyone can consume is ongoing elsewhere.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> **1. Elitism:** you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

>

> **2. Trainings:** what fun is it to have to _train_ for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

>

> **3. "Save Points":** you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

>

> It's just frustrating. Today, I was _really_ in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a _full_ raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

>

> Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

 

As you can tell from the responses thus far, you forgot "a toxic raider community, encouraged by points 1 and 2."

[yann.1946]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > **1. Elitism:** you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

> >

> > **2. Trainings:** what fun is it to have to _train_ for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

> >

> > **3. "Save Points":** you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

> >

> > It's just frustrating. Today, I was _really_ in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a _full_ raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

> >

> > Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

>

> As you can tell from the responses thus far, you forgot "a toxic raider community, encouraged by points 1 and 2."

 

Which responses showed a toxic raider community?

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > **1. Elitism:** you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

> > >

> > > **2. Trainings:** what fun is it to have to _train_ for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

> > >

> > > **3. "Save Points":** you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

> > >

> > > It's just frustrating. Today, I was _really_ in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a _full_ raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

> > >

> > > Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

> >

> > As you can tell from the responses thus far, you forgot "a toxic raider community, encouraged by points 1 and 2."

>

> Which responses showed a toxic raider community?

 

The raid community isn't the only toxic entity...it cuts both ways.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > **1. Elitism:** you can't find a group that will take you with them, if you haven't have enough "LI" and "KP" (so much for casual players).

> > >

> > > **2. Trainings:** what fun is it to have to _train_ for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

> > >

> > > **3. "Save Points":** you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

> > >

> > > It's just frustrating. Today, I was _really_ in the mood to raid again for a change (haven't in ages because of said design), as I wanted to go back to the Unterworld and meet Dhuum again, but was quickly reminded why I had quit in the first place (because not being accepted into any group due to my low LI and KP stinks, and seeing the same bosses like the Vale Guardian or Gorseval over and over again and never experiencing a _full_ raid just gets boring as hell quickly).

> > >

> > > Please, do something about your raid design, ANet!

> >

> > As you can tell from the responses thus far, you forgot "a toxic raider community, encouraged by points 1 and 2."

>

> Which responses showed a toxic raider community?

 

I think they meant the responses by those who want the opportunity to play with who they want, when they want, because their time is precious and valuable and don't want to "waste" it. It's my time, so I can do whatever I want with it, yet some call this "elitism", in that case elitism is a wonderful thing.