mortrialus.3062 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > @"Takashiro.8701" said: > > All we dumb Mesmers, not utilizing the sheer opness that is Arcane Thievery. Thank you for opening my eyes. > > Guess you fail to realize it adds up...does power creep not suggest that which is added unto itself? Except everyone knows tons of skills across all classes like Arcane Thievery were far below the power curve already and that buffing them isn't power creep. If you're adding power to an ability that's below the power curve and it's still below the power curve it's not power creep by definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.9387 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Remember when anet forgot the decimal on the chaos storm trait and it did 100x the normal damage? 300k dps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Ryan.9387" said: > Remember when anet forgot the decimal on the chaos storm trait and it did 100x the normal damage? 300k dps Iconic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tao.5096 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Condition Mesmer should be buffed in all game modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Ryan.9387" said: > > Remember when anet forgot the decimal on the chaos storm trait and it did 100x the normal damage? 300k dps > > > > Iconic It's funny how other classes get bugs that cause them problems with their performance. But when Mesmers get some bug that pushes through a patch, it always turns them god tier. It sometimes feels.... intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Tao.5096" said: > Condition Mesmer should be buffed in all game modes. Mirage needs some help too in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ryan.9387" said: > > > Remember when anet forgot the decimal on the chaos storm trait and it did 100x the normal damage? 300k dps > > > > > > > > Iconic > > It's funny how other classes get bugs that cause them problems with their performance. But when Mesmers get some bug that pushes through a patch, it always turns them god tier. It sometimes feels.... intended. > you meant : FGS rush on ele , icebow dodge cast on ele ,signet exploit on war , fire ring that hits people inside on cele ele , 3 shade that hit a single target on scourge ,warhorn skill that hits multi times on tempest , canceling auto for healing signet on ele , taunt bug on ranger , downed skill bug on rev , the list could go on forever . all of those did not happen ? and since the video is about pve . guess what's the highest dps on large hitbox : war . and funny how it's due to a bug that didn't get fixed for a long long time by now . oh btw the chaos storm bug was fixed in 1-2 days while most bugs i listed here last months if not years .and they were much much more practical than "jumping from high wall into lupi " and for all it matters , that bug never made mesmer god tier in any game mode . getting to the position where you can jump off was more time consuming than fgs rush . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taltevus.3289 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > @"Takashiro.8701" said: > > > All we dumb Mesmers, not utilizing the sheer opness that is Arcane Thievery. Thank you for opening my eyes. > > > > Guess you fail to realize it adds up...does power creep not suggest that which is added unto itself? > > Except everyone knows tons of skills across all classes like Arcane Thievery were far below the power curve already and that buffing them isn't power creep. If you're adding power to an ability that's below the power curve and it's still below the power curve it's not power creep by definition. Fine if you want mesmers to have stupid levels of access to Quickness fine. Sure...go ahead...give them free casts while you're at it. Stab and Quickness are good to have but in the case of a mesmer it really does make a difference. Look at the level of Bit- Complaining about Bountiful D getting nerfed? The Gen Pop complains about Phantasm spam? But you and 4 others fail to see how Quickness helps the Mesmer overall? When a Mesmer gets interrupted they become VERY vulnerable and Mesmer has this unique ability to queue up effects against foes...it's not like other classes. we are granted the ability of a sort of non-linear attack system where the mesmer can attack you many ways (Seemingly) at one time (after a short delay in setup). But sure...go a head and make those cast times even smaller so there is NO RISK at getting interrupted. Nah, Quickness don't mean ish, let em have it....I'm fine with that but don't cry about Phantasm Spam in the matter of seconds becasue you and others apparently want this? Lets not even get on with Chrono...becasue Alacrity is ONLY useful on Skills that have been used...have free access to quickness can help. I mean, I've gotten four or Five replies and every one of these replies suggest when you have quickness...you just stand there...and do nothing? A good way to chop a mesmer is to just stop them from casting... Arcane theivery didn't need the quickness or slow added. ACross the elite and core Mesmer has enough access to both of those. It doesn't encourage players to build around these desired effects when it's just given out freely. It needed a shorter cast time becasue its unreliable or it should do more. or specifically Steal the 3 highest stacked boons and trade the three highest stacked conditions at the moment of casting. That would really give mesmers something to laugh at. OR maybe it should allow a swap of boons and conditions on each time you are hit for 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Glass cannons are going to be able to use that cause they can't take damage...maybe let mesmer boonstrip a little huh? But nah....just keep giving em free stuff here and there it's fine. However my point is...again...it...adds...up. A bunch of innocuous changes add up and in to power-creep. Since HoT, players have been saying too much of everything. Too much sustain, healing, cc, stun break, nothing really seems impactful, all classes are just a spam-fest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vague Memory.2817 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 The OP conveniently doesn't mention the ton of nerfs done to Mes over the last few years that would make his paltry laundry list weep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > @"Takashiro.8701" said: > > > > All we dumb Mesmers, not utilizing the sheer opness that is Arcane Thievery. Thank you for opening my eyes. > > > > > > Guess you fail to realize it adds up...does power creep not suggest that which is added unto itself? > > > > Except everyone knows tons of skills across all classes like Arcane Thievery were far below the power curve already and that buffing them isn't power creep. If you're adding power to an ability that's below the power curve and it's still below the power curve it's not power creep by definition. > > Fine if you want mesmers to have stupid levels of access to Quickness fine. Sure...go ahead...give them free casts while you're at it. Stab and Quickness are good to have but in the case of a mesmer it really does make a difference. Look at the level of Bit- Complaining about Bountiful D getting nerfed? > The Gen Pop complains about Phantasm spam? But you and 4 others fail to see how Quickness helps the Mesmer overall? > > When a Mesmer gets interrupted they become VERY vulnerable and Mesmer has this unique ability to queue up effects against foes...it's not like other classes. we are granted the ability of a sort of non-linear attack system where the mesmer can attack you many ways (Seemingly) at one time (after a short delay in setup). But sure...go a head and make those cast times even smaller so there is NO RISK at getting interrupted. Nah, Quickness don't mean ish, let em have it....I'm fine with that but don't cry about Phantasm Spam in the matter of seconds becasue you and others apparently want this? Lets not even get on with Chrono...becasue Alacrity is ONLY useful on Skills that have been used...have free access to quickness can help. > > I mean, I've gotten four or Five replies and every one of these replies suggest when you have quickness...you just stand there...and do nothing? > A good way to chop a mesmer is to just stop them from casting... Arcane theivery didn't need the quickness or slow added. ACross the elite and core Mesmer has enough access to both of those. It doesn't encourage players to build around these desired effects when it's just given out freely. > It needed a shorter cast time becasue its unreliable or it should do more. or specifically Steal the 3 highest stacked boons and trade the three highest stacked conditions at the moment of casting. That would really give mesmers something to laugh at. OR maybe it should allow a swap of boons and conditions on each time you are hit for 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Glass cannons are going to be able to use that cause they can't take damage...maybe let mesmer boonstrip a little huh? But nah....just keep giving em free stuff here and there it's fine. > > However my point is...again...it...adds...up. A bunch of innocuous changes add up and in to power-creep. > Since HoT, players have been saying too much of everything. Too much sustain, healing, cc, stun break, nothing really seems impactful, all classes are just a spam-fest. Sources of quickness available to core Mesmer: * Arcane Thievery * Mantra of Concentration (only on charge) * Time Warp * Furious Interruption (situational at best) Additional Sources if you use Chrono: * Well of Action * Seize the Moment (competes with Chronophantasma) 3 non-elite sources is 'stupid levels of access' apparently. This was a humorous rant to read, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Vague Memory.2817" said: > The OP conveniently doesn't mention the ton of nerfs done to Mes over the last few years that would make his paltry laundry list weep. Please elaborate. > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > Fine if you want mesmers to have stupid levels of access to Quickness fine. >Mesmer has this unique ability to queue up effects against foes...it's not like other classes. we are granted the ability of a sort of non-linear attack system where the mesmer can attack you many ways (Seemingly) at one time (after a short delay in setup). But sure...go a head and make those cast times even smaller so there is NO RISK at getting interrupted. Nah, Quickness don't mean ish, let em have it....I'm fine with that but don't cry about Phantasm Spam in the matter of seconds becasue you and others apparently want this? Lets not even get on with Chrono...becasue Alacrity is ONLY useful on Skills that have been used...have free access to quickness can help. (Edited for brevity.) Quickness isnt the problem here. I'm fine with setups being faster or having burst dropped on me faster. That's something I can learn to play around. I'm not sure what your point is regarding mesmer being overpowered, but I don't think I agree with your general argument. Personally, I'm fine with mesmers being able to mess with boons or add quickness to themselves. It in no way approaches permanent uptime. Problems, however, occur when this weakness is covered. > When a Mesmer gets interrupted they become VERY vulnerable and > A good way to chop a mesmer is to just stop them from casting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taltevus.3289 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > > @"Takashiro.8701" said: > > > > > All we dumb Mesmers, not utilizing the sheer opness that is Arcane Thievery. Thank you for opening my eyes. > > > > > > > > Guess you fail to realize it adds up...does power creep not suggest that which is added unto itself? > > > > > > Except everyone knows tons of skills across all classes like Arcane Thievery were far below the power curve already and that buffing them isn't power creep. If you're adding power to an ability that's below the power curve and it's still below the power curve it's not power creep by definition. > > > > Fine if you want mesmers to have stupid levels of access to Quickness fine. Sure...go ahead...give them free casts while you're at it. Stab and Quickness are good to have but in the case of a mesmer it really does make a difference. Look at the level of Bit- Complaining about Bountiful D getting nerfed? > > The Gen Pop complains about Phantasm spam? But you and 4 others fail to see how Quickness helps the Mesmer overall? > > > > When a Mesmer gets interrupted they become VERY vulnerable and Mesmer has this unique ability to queue up effects against foes...it's not like other classes. we are granted the ability of a sort of non-linear attack system where the mesmer can attack you many ways (Seemingly) at one time (after a short delay in setup). But sure...go a head and make those cast times even smaller so there is NO RISK at getting interrupted. Nah, Quickness don't mean ish, let em have it....I'm fine with that but don't cry about Phantasm Spam in the matter of seconds becasue you and others apparently want this? Lets not even get on with Chrono...becasue Alacrity is ONLY useful on Skills that have been used...have free access to quickness can help. > > > > I mean, I've gotten four or Five replies and every one of these replies suggest when you have quickness...you just stand there...and do nothing? > > A good way to chop a mesmer is to just stop them from casting... Arcane theivery didn't need the quickness or slow added. ACross the elite and core Mesmer has enough access to both of those. It doesn't encourage players to build around these desired effects when it's just given out freely. > > It needed a shorter cast time becasue its unreliable or it should do more. or specifically Steal the 3 highest stacked boons and trade the three highest stacked conditions at the moment of casting. That would really give mesmers something to laugh at. OR maybe it should allow a swap of boons and conditions on each time you are hit for 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Glass cannons are going to be able to use that cause they can't take damage...maybe let mesmer boonstrip a little huh? But nah....just keep giving em free stuff here and there it's fine. > > > > However my point is...again...it...adds...up. A bunch of innocuous changes add up and in to power-creep. > > Since HoT, players have been saying too much of everything. Too much sustain, healing, cc, stun break, nothing really seems impactful, all classes are just a spam-fest. > > Sources of quickness available to core Mesmer: > * Arcane Thievery > * Mantra of Concentration (only on charge) > * Time Warp > * Furious Interruption (situational at best) > > Additional Sources if you use Chrono: > * Well of Action > * Seize the Moment (competes with Chronophantasma) > > 3 non-elite sources is 'stupid levels of access' apparently. This was a humorous rant to read, thank you. If you improve the core class you improve the elites potential as well. This is exactly what I am saying... It's not about specific skills it's about the principle and design. Let me repeat becasue you obviously can't think in context of how skills are used. Quickeness doesn't mean a damn if you aren't activating a skill it's essentially wasted alacrity shares in this in the inverse it's only utilized if your skills are on cool-down. Here's the complete list of Quickness access and some context to stop you from willful omission: > Sources of quickness available to core Mesmer: > * Arcane Thievery 4 seconds > * Mantra of Concentration (only on charge) 5 seconds > * Time Warp 10 seconds > * Furious Interruption (situational at best) 3 seconds (lol no, Mesmer is a CC specialist, there's nothing situational about this trait) > * Phantasmal haste (what you omitted) 1.5 seconds > > Additional Sources if you use Chrono: > * Well of Action 4 seconds > * Seize the Moment (competes with Chronophantasma) 1.5 > So as I was saying you don't need quickness to be up 100% you just need it long enough to get a skill off. Please tell me again how it's not excessive? Sit there and try to lie and tell me Mesmer EVEN as core doesn't have enough access to ALWAYS have it available to use when needed? In the context of a duel IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE AROUND READY TO BE USED. Which means it effectively can be pretty damn close to 100% of the time IT. IS. NEEDED. It's basically a freebie. Seems innocuous but when you pair this natural access with Bountiful D. Now it compounds one of Mesmers Weaknesses from getting interrupted/CC'd. Yeah, you can laugh as a way to dismiss my "rant" but you clearly don't know what you are talking about or are one of those players only thinking in terms of the mesmer on paper and not in actual use use to protect your "build". Here's a tip...Go see how all the carried by broken design mesmers are crying over Bountiful D.'s Nerf...Want to know what the solution is? Take Mantra of Concentration and *no* it's not the same and it's exactly how it should be. You as a player need to be forced to make a choice and not just handed free access to boons whenever you please to cover up class weaknesses. <---This is why Classes (not just the mesmer) have become near impossible to balance; becasue the weaknesses are NEVER ADDRESSED as far as class interaction goes they are just covered up with excessive boons, condi, CC and damage. aka power creep. The core classes are a poor foundation on which the elite system is built. I still think the trait line system needs. to. go. it clearly doesn't work the way they wanted it to. They've had to redesign TWO CLASSES. This system should have made it possible to avoid that necessity...but...it didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > > > @"Takashiro.8701" said: > > > > > > All we dumb Mesmers, not utilizing the sheer opness that is Arcane Thievery. Thank you for opening my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > Guess you fail to realize it adds up...does power creep not suggest that which is added unto itself? > > > > > > > > Except everyone knows tons of skills across all classes like Arcane Thievery were far below the power curve already and that buffing them isn't power creep. If you're adding power to an ability that's below the power curve and it's still below the power curve it's not power creep by definition. > > > > > > Fine if you want mesmers to have stupid levels of access to Quickness fine. Sure...go ahead...give them free casts while you're at it. Stab and Quickness are good to have but in the case of a mesmer it really does make a difference. Look at the level of Bit- Complaining about Bountiful D getting nerfed? > > > The Gen Pop complains about Phantasm spam? But you and 4 others fail to see how Quickness helps the Mesmer overall? > > > > > > When a Mesmer gets interrupted they become VERY vulnerable and Mesmer has this unique ability to queue up effects against foes...it's not like other classes. we are granted the ability of a sort of non-linear attack system where the mesmer can attack you many ways (Seemingly) at one time (after a short delay in setup). But sure...go a head and make those cast times even smaller so there is NO RISK at getting interrupted. Nah, Quickness don't mean ish, let em have it....I'm fine with that but don't cry about Phantasm Spam in the matter of seconds becasue you and others apparently want this? Lets not even get on with Chrono...becasue Alacrity is ONLY useful on Skills that have been used...have free access to quickness can help. > > > > > > I mean, I've gotten four or Five replies and every one of these replies suggest when you have quickness...you just stand there...and do nothing? > > > A good way to chop a mesmer is to just stop them from casting... Arcane theivery didn't need the quickness or slow added. ACross the elite and core Mesmer has enough access to both of those. It doesn't encourage players to build around these desired effects when it's just given out freely. > > > It needed a shorter cast time becasue its unreliable or it should do more. or specifically Steal the 3 highest stacked boons and trade the three highest stacked conditions at the moment of casting. That would really give mesmers something to laugh at. OR maybe it should allow a swap of boons and conditions on each time you are hit for 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Glass cannons are going to be able to use that cause they can't take damage...maybe let mesmer boonstrip a little huh? But nah....just keep giving em free stuff here and there it's fine. > > > > > > However my point is...again...it...adds...up. A bunch of innocuous changes add up and in to power-creep. > > > Since HoT, players have been saying too much of everything. Too much sustain, healing, cc, stun break, nothing really seems impactful, all classes are just a spam-fest. > > > > Sources of quickness available to core Mesmer: > > * Arcane Thievery > > * Mantra of Concentration (only on charge) > > * Time Warp > > * Furious Interruption (situational at best) > > > > Additional Sources if you use Chrono: > > * Well of Action > > * Seize the Moment (competes with Chronophantasma) > > > > 3 non-elite sources is 'stupid levels of access' apparently. This was a humorous rant to read, thank you. > > If you improve the core class you improve the elites potential as well. This is exactly what I am saying... > It's not about specific skills it's about the principle and design. > Let me repeat becasue you obviously can't think in context of how skills are used. > If you add improvements to the core classes they carry over to the elites...not sure why you don't get that. > If you keep adding these innocuous changes OVER TIME this adds up to power creep Arcance T. is just an example not the matter of fact. Again, it's only power creep if it pushes the spell above the power curve. Arcane Thievery getting a buff isn't power creep because it still doesn't impact the game in anyway. It's still an extremely niche skill and still far below the power curve. The moment Arcane Thievery gets a buff that makes it so worth taking mesmers en masse are taking it over Blink or Portal, that's when you know you've got Power Creep. Real Power Creep would be if Arenanet looked at portal and thought "This ability is considered too mandatory in PvP. We should buff all the utilities to be comparable." And we did have power creep in the form of Disenchanter and Defender. It took turning utilities into 1 shot nukes to make some builds of mesmers run something other than portal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 That is power creep, though. Adjusting abilities to do more to get back to a higher baseline is the pure definition of power creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > > @"Takashiro.8701" said: > > > > > All we dumb Mesmers, not utilizing the sheer opness that is Arcane Thievery. Thank you for opening my eyes. > > > > > > > > Guess you fail to realize it adds up...does power creep not suggest that which is added unto itself? > > > > > > Except everyone knows tons of skills across all classes like Arcane Thievery were far below the power curve already and that buffing them isn't power creep. If you're adding power to an ability that's below the power curve and it's still below the power curve it's not power creep by definition. > > > > Fine if you want mesmers to have stupid levels of access to Quickness fine. Sure...go ahead...give them free casts while you're at it. Stab and Quickness are good to have but in the case of a mesmer it really does make a difference. Look at the level of Bit- Complaining about Bountiful D getting nerfed? > > The Gen Pop complains about Phantasm spam? But you and 4 others fail to see how Quickness helps the Mesmer overall? > > > > When a Mesmer gets interrupted they become VERY vulnerable and Mesmer has this unique ability to queue up effects against foes...it's not like other classes. we are granted the ability of a sort of non-linear attack system where the mesmer can attack you many ways (Seemingly) at one time (after a short delay in setup). But sure...go a head and make those cast times even smaller so there is NO RISK at getting interrupted. Nah, Quickness don't mean ish, let em have it....I'm fine with that but don't cry about Phantasm Spam in the matter of seconds becasue you and others apparently want this? Lets not even get on with Chrono...becasue Alacrity is ONLY useful on Skills that have been used...have free access to quickness can help. > > > > I mean, I've gotten four or Five replies and every one of these replies suggest when you have quickness...you just stand there...and do nothing? > > A good way to chop a mesmer is to just stop them from casting... Arcane theivery didn't need the quickness or slow added. ACross the elite and core Mesmer has enough access to both of those. It doesn't encourage players to build around these desired effects when it's just given out freely. > > It needed a shorter cast time becasue its unreliable or it should do more. or specifically Steal the 3 highest stacked boons and trade the three highest stacked conditions at the moment of casting. That would really give mesmers something to laugh at. OR maybe it should allow a swap of boons and conditions on each time you are hit for 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Glass cannons are going to be able to use that cause they can't take damage...maybe let mesmer boonstrip a little huh? But nah....just keep giving em free stuff here and there it's fine. > > > > However my point is...again...it...adds...up. A bunch of innocuous changes add up and in to power-creep. > > Since HoT, players have been saying too much of everything. Too much sustain, healing, cc, stun break, nothing really seems impactful, all classes are just a spam-fest. > > Sources of quickness available to core Mesmer: > * Arcane Thievery > * Mantra of Concentration (only on charge) > * Time Warp > * Furious Interruption (situational at best) > > Additional Sources if you use Chrono: > * Well of Action > * Seize the Moment (competes with Chronophantasma) > > 3 non-elite sources is 'stupid levels of access' apparently. This was a humorous rant to read, thank you. I love how you gloss over the one trait that granted Chrono permanent quickness, Phantasmal Haste. This was indeed a humorous rant to read, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"phokus.8934" said: > That is power creep, though. Adjusting abilities to do more to get back to a higher baseline is the pure definition of power creep. Arcane Thievery and Phantasmal Mage were never particularly good. Arcane Thievery still isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > > > @"Takashiro.8701" said: > > > > > > All we dumb Mesmers, not utilizing the sheer opness that is Arcane Thievery. Thank you for opening my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > Guess you fail to realize it adds up...does power creep not suggest that which is added unto itself? > > > > > > > > Except everyone knows tons of skills across all classes like Arcane Thievery were far below the power curve already and that buffing them isn't power creep. If you're adding power to an ability that's below the power curve and it's still below the power curve it's not power creep by definition. > > > > > > Fine if you want mesmers to have stupid levels of access to Quickness fine. Sure...go ahead...give them free casts while you're at it. Stab and Quickness are good to have but in the case of a mesmer it really does make a difference. Look at the level of Bit- Complaining about Bountiful D getting nerfed? > > > The Gen Pop complains about Phantasm spam? But you and 4 others fail to see how Quickness helps the Mesmer overall? > > > > > > When a Mesmer gets interrupted they become VERY vulnerable and Mesmer has this unique ability to queue up effects against foes...it's not like other classes. we are granted the ability of a sort of non-linear attack system where the mesmer can attack you many ways (Seemingly) at one time (after a short delay in setup). But sure...go a head and make those cast times even smaller so there is NO RISK at getting interrupted. Nah, Quickness don't mean ish, let em have it....I'm fine with that but don't cry about Phantasm Spam in the matter of seconds becasue you and others apparently want this? Lets not even get on with Chrono...becasue Alacrity is ONLY useful on Skills that have been used...have free access to quickness can help. > > > > > > I mean, I've gotten four or Five replies and every one of these replies suggest when you have quickness...you just stand there...and do nothing? > > > A good way to chop a mesmer is to just stop them from casting... Arcane theivery didn't need the quickness or slow added. ACross the elite and core Mesmer has enough access to both of those. It doesn't encourage players to build around these desired effects when it's just given out freely. > > > It needed a shorter cast time becasue its unreliable or it should do more. or specifically Steal the 3 highest stacked boons and trade the three highest stacked conditions at the moment of casting. That would really give mesmers something to laugh at. OR maybe it should allow a swap of boons and conditions on each time you are hit for 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Glass cannons are going to be able to use that cause they can't take damage...maybe let mesmer boonstrip a little huh? But nah....just keep giving em free stuff here and there it's fine. > > > > > > However my point is...again...it...adds...up. A bunch of innocuous changes add up and in to power-creep. > > > Since HoT, players have been saying too much of everything. Too much sustain, healing, cc, stun break, nothing really seems impactful, all classes are just a spam-fest. > > > > Sources of quickness available to core Mesmer: > > * Arcane Thievery > > * Mantra of Concentration (only on charge) > > * Time Warp > > * Furious Interruption (situational at best) > > > > Additional Sources if you use Chrono: > > * Well of Action > > * Seize the Moment (competes with Chronophantasma) > > > > 3 non-elite sources is 'stupid levels of access' apparently. This was a humorous rant to read, thank you. > > I love how you gloss over the one trait that granted Chrono permanent quickness, Phantasmal Haste. This was indeed a humorous rant to read, thank you. Actually the wiki has not been updated if you go to the Quickness page. I'm not some scheming miscreant, had I remembered it I would have put it in. Although it's nice to know you nitpick over any omission accidental or otherwise in need of some victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > > > @"Takashiro.8701" said: > > > > > > All we dumb Mesmers, not utilizing the sheer opness that is Arcane Thievery. Thank you for opening my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > Guess you fail to realize it adds up...does power creep not suggest that which is added unto itself? > > > > > > > > Except everyone knows tons of skills across all classes like Arcane Thievery were far below the power curve already and that buffing them isn't power creep. If you're adding power to an ability that's below the power curve and it's still below the power curve it's not power creep by definition. > > > > > > Fine if you want mesmers to have stupid levels of access to Quickness fine. Sure...go ahead...give them free casts while you're at it. Stab and Quickness are good to have but in the case of a mesmer it really does make a difference. Look at the level of Bit- Complaining about Bountiful D getting nerfed? > > > The Gen Pop complains about Phantasm spam? But you and 4 others fail to see how Quickness helps the Mesmer overall? > > > > > > When a Mesmer gets interrupted they become VERY vulnerable and Mesmer has this unique ability to queue up effects against foes...it's not like other classes. we are granted the ability of a sort of non-linear attack system where the mesmer can attack you many ways (Seemingly) at one time (after a short delay in setup). But sure...go a head and make those cast times even smaller so there is NO RISK at getting interrupted. Nah, Quickness don't mean ish, let em have it....I'm fine with that but don't cry about Phantasm Spam in the matter of seconds becasue you and others apparently want this? Lets not even get on with Chrono...becasue Alacrity is ONLY useful on Skills that have been used...have free access to quickness can help. > > > > > > I mean, I've gotten four or Five replies and every one of these replies suggest when you have quickness...you just stand there...and do nothing? > > > A good way to chop a mesmer is to just stop them from casting... Arcane theivery didn't need the quickness or slow added. ACross the elite and core Mesmer has enough access to both of those. It doesn't encourage players to build around these desired effects when it's just given out freely. > > > It needed a shorter cast time becasue its unreliable or it should do more. or specifically Steal the 3 highest stacked boons and trade the three highest stacked conditions at the moment of casting. That would really give mesmers something to laugh at. OR maybe it should allow a swap of boons and conditions on each time you are hit for 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Glass cannons are going to be able to use that cause they can't take damage...maybe let mesmer boonstrip a little huh? But nah....just keep giving em free stuff here and there it's fine. > > > > > > However my point is...again...it...adds...up. A bunch of innocuous changes add up and in to power-creep. > > > Since HoT, players have been saying too much of everything. Too much sustain, healing, cc, stun break, nothing really seems impactful, all classes are just a spam-fest. > > > > Sources of quickness available to core Mesmer: > > * Arcane Thievery > > * Mantra of Concentration (only on charge) > > * Time Warp > > * Furious Interruption (situational at best) > > > > Additional Sources if you use Chrono: > > * Well of Action > > * Seize the Moment (competes with Chronophantasma) > > > > 3 non-elite sources is 'stupid levels of access' apparently. This was a humorous rant to read, thank you. > > > If you improve the core class you improve the elites potential as well. This is exactly what I am saying... > It's not about specific skills it's about the principle and design. > Let me repeat becasue you obviously can't think in context of how skills are used. > > Quickeness doesn't mean a kitten if you aren't activating a skill it's essentially wasted alacrity shares in this in the inverse it's only utilized if your skills are on cool-down. > Here's the complete list of Quickness access and some context to stop you from willful omission: > > > Sources of quickness available to core Mesmer: > > * Arcane Thievery 4 seconds > > * Mantra of Concentration (only on charge) 5 seconds > > * Time Warp 10 seconds > > * Furious Interruption (situational at best) 3 seconds (lol no, Mesmer is a CC specialist, there's nothing situational about this trait) > > * Phantasmal haste (what you omitted) 1.5 seconds > > > > Additional Sources if you use Chrono: > > * Well of Action 4 seconds > > * Seize the Moment (competes with Chronophantasma) 1.5 > > > > So as I was saying you don't need quickness to be up 100% you just need it long enough to get a skill off. > Please tell me again how it's not excessive? Sit there and try to lie and tell me Mesmer EVEN as core doesn't have enough access to ALWAYS have it available to use when needed? In the context of a duel IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE AROUND READY TO BE USED. Which means it effectively can be pretty kitten close to 100% of the time IT. IS. NEEDED. It's basically a freebie. Seems innocuous but when you pair this natural access with Bountiful D. Now it compounds one of Mesmers Weaknesses from getting interrupted/CC'd. > > Yeah, you can laugh as a way to dismiss my "rant" but you clearly don't know what you are talking about or are one of those players only thinking in terms of the mesmer on paper and not in actual use use to protect your "build". > > Here's a tip...Go see how all the carried by broken design mesmers are crying over Bountiful D.'s Nerf...Want to know what the solution is? > Take Mantra of Concentration and *no* it's not the same and it's exactly how it should be. You as a player need to be forced to make a choice and not just handed free access to boons whenever you please to cover up class weaknesses. <---This is why Classes (not just the mesmer) have become near impossible to balance; becasue the weaknesses are NEVER ADDRESSED as far as class interaction goes they are just covered up with excessive boons, condi, CC and damage. aka power creep. > > The core classes are a poor foundation on which the elite system is built. I still think the trait line system needs. to. go. it clearly doesn't work the way they wanted it to. They've had to redesign TWO CLASSES. This system should have made it possible to avoid that necessity...but...it didn't. Here's another tip: Go read all the comments where I said BD is super okay and awesome pre nerf, there was nothing overboard about it. I'm addressing quickness only since you complained that Mesmers have 'stupid levels of access' to it, which is baseline false. Although you listed the duration of quickness for each of those skills you didn't list any cooldowns or ICDs. So allow me: * Arcane Thievery, 4 seconds of quickness on a 25 second cooldown * Mantra of Concentration 5 seconds on charge on a minimum of a 19 and 1/4 second recharge (counting recharge between charge uses and the significant charging time) * Time Warp, an elite skill with 180 seconds of cooldown, elite skills by definition are supposed to affect the flow of the entire battle, I think it's more than appropriate, in fact the only 'power creep' it's ever received was reducing it's cooldown from 210 seconds to 180 since the glamour trait was reworked to provide additional duration rather than reduced recharge. * Furious Interruption, still situational at best. You can assume that the Mesmer will interrupt 100% of the time as soon as the ICD is up but that's a statistical outlier and does not a proper argument make. * I didn't remember Phantasmal Haste thank you for reminding me seeing as the wiki Quickness page needs to be updated. Outside of Chrono though (and the synergy was quite the problem nowhere did I say it was not) the most amount of times you could proc it within 16 seconds (the lowest possible phantasm cooldown, available only with traits) is 4 times (5 if you're running Chrono and Shield) and that's if you take both utility phantasms and decide to sacrifice either Blink or Portal, both of which are considered mainstays and your opponent is a just absently letting you spam phantasms. * Well of Action, another 4 seconds on a 25 second cooldown. Considering you have to take an Elite to use it, not that big of a deal. * Seize the Moment, again it competes with Chronophantasma and it's a GM trait. Your argument is specious at best, quickness on any other class will be up 'when you need it' in the context of dueling, it's not Mesmer specific extending on that any skill that you don't necessarily have to use is always going to be up 'when you need it' unless the fight actually lasts long. Essentially you're getting mad that someone has access to a skill when they need it which doesn't make a lot of sense. If you were arguing about 100% uptime you'd at least have a reason to be mad because no class should be able to have 100% uptime in anything. If you only use a skill when you need sure it's 100% 'effective' uptime, but that should be a reward for tactically using your skills. They didn't redesign two classes, they reworked one mechanic (phantasms) on Mesmer which is hardly the whole class although it did make a big difference, one could argue it would have needed to be reworked regardless of the implementation of the trait system. They reworked Malice (one mechanic) on Deadeye (a single elite specialization) which is not an entire class. I don't have an opinion on your trait system argument, the likelihood that it will go is very near to zero. Oh and another tip: Intermittently making a couple words all capitalized does not make you sound more convincing neither does saying I don't know what I'm talking about make it true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelada.2947 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Taltevus.3289" said: > > > > @"Takashiro.8701" said: > > > > All we dumb Mesmers, not utilizing the sheer opness that is Arcane Thievery. Thank you for opening my eyes. > > > > > > Guess you fail to realize it adds up...does power creep not suggest that which is added unto itself? > > > > Except everyone knows tons of skills across all classes like Arcane Thievery were far below the power curve already and that buffing them isn't power creep. If you're adding power to an ability that's below the power curve and it's still below the power curve it's not power creep by definition. > > Fine if you want mesmers to have stupid levels of access to Quickness fine. Sure...go ahead...give them free casts while you're at it. Stab and Quickness are good to have but in the case of a mesmer it really does make a difference. Look at the level of Bit- Complaining about Bountiful D getting nerfed? > The Gen Pop complains about Phantasm spam? But you and 4 others fail to see how Quickness helps the Mesmer overall? > > When a Mesmer gets interrupted they become VERY vulnerable and Mesmer has this unique ability to queue up effects against foes...it's not like other classes. we are granted the ability of a sort of non-linear attack system where the mesmer can attack you many ways (Seemingly) at one time (after a short delay in setup). But sure...go a head and make those cast times even smaller so there is NO RISK at getting interrupted. Nah, Quickness don't mean ish, let em have it....I'm fine with that but don't cry about Phantasm Spam in the matter of seconds becasue you and others apparently want this? Lets not even get on with Chrono...becasue Alacrity is ONLY useful on Skills that have been used...have free access to quickness can help. > > I mean, I've gotten four or Five replies and every one of these replies suggest when you have quickness...you just stand there...and do nothing? > A good way to chop a mesmer is to just stop them from casting... Arcane theivery didn't need the quickness or slow added. ACross the elite and core Mesmer has enough access to both of those. It doesn't encourage players to build around these desired effects when it's just given out freely. > It needed a shorter cast time becasue its unreliable or it should do more. or specifically Steal the 3 highest stacked boons and trade the three highest stacked conditions at the moment of casting. That would really give mesmers something to laugh at. OR maybe it should allow a swap of boons and conditions on each time you are hit for 5 seconds or 10 seconds. Glass cannons are going to be able to use that cause they can't take damage...maybe let mesmer boonstrip a little huh? But nah....just keep giving em free stuff here and there it's fine. > > However my point is...again...it...adds...up. A bunch of innocuous changes add up and in to power-creep. > Since HoT, players have been saying too much of everything. Too much sustain, healing, cc, stun break, nothing really seems impactful, all classes are just a spam-fest. ahhahahaha ok let me try to stop the mesmer from casting anything, evade, evade, evade, evade, invisible, 6 clones on my screen, no idea if the mesmer is one of the clones, let me attack this one, oh shit that wasn't, i guess is this one , bingo!, evade, evade, evade, evade ... after i'm starting to win the fight... cuadruple jump and he is already at his base recovering his hp back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieux P.1238 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Vieux P.1238" said: > > Mesmer only looks overtuned cuz many of your classes got there defensive passives gutted. You really think that only mesmer is squashing your class in 2 shots? Think again. Pretty much every classes are doing it. Only problem with mesmers is that players playing it are getting good standing still making it that much hard to hit the right target. & everyone is getting frustrated cuz you can't tank as well as before. & by the time you do find the right target you already lost more life points then your use to. That's the real truth. Anyone saying other wise is in complete otter denial. > > You pretty much put your foot in your mouth here. If mesmer is a problem now, because every other class had its tanking/sustain toned down, then it is doing too much damage or has too much defense. > > And standing still is not a skill that should be rewarded with high damage in tandem with high defense. Your staff clone pretend is cute, but it doesn't warrant being able to freebail out of stuns by having 50 endurance. > > Guess I don't believe in otters though. > Sigh... You need to re-read yourself cuz your utterly not making any sense & attempting to deny my point does not make you right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 It took like 2 comments from OP to start this fire. Mesmer threads are so sensitive :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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