Brujeria.7536 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Zero.3871" said: > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > Corrected Update Note -- Sand Savant: This trait has been split between game modes. In PvE it will continue to reduce cooldown by 33%. In PvP and WvW modes it will increase sand shade recharge by 100%. > > expected nerf, but scourge will be still OP in Zergfights. and now more or less useless in roaming. > > i think Problem is still bad class design, couse scourge is only aoe dmg skills. if there would be other skilltypes (for mobility, Sustain, ….) and less aoe dmg it would work better. > Hey thats basicly a summary of the elementalist as a profession and all of its available elite specs. Its perfectly fine for eles, yet its not for necros? Wheres the logic in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 Hmmm, ANet, are you now not taking away the grandmaster trait choice in every gamemode? PvE (endgame) is already dominated by [Demonic Lore](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Demonic_Lore) Scourges. Is it now not exactly going to be the same in WvW and PvP as well? A bit strange imo! **Suggestion:** Change [Feed from Corruption](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feed_from_Corruption) to also share the gained boons with nearby allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > Corrected Update Note -- Sand Savant: This trait has been split between game modes. In PvE it will continue to reduce cooldown by 33%. In PvP and WvW modes it will increase sand shade recharge by 100%. > > > > expected nerf, but scourge will be still OP in Zergfights. and now more or less useless in roaming. > > > > i think Problem is still bad class design, couse scourge is only aoe dmg skills. if there would be other skilltypes (for mobility, Sustain, ….) and less aoe dmg it would work better. > > > > Hey thats basicly a summary of the elementalist as a profession and all of its available elite specs. Its perfectly fine for eles, yet its not for necros? Wheres the logic in that? > > > Hey we have someone that doesn't know what ele is capable of. Necro himself has pretty bad sustain and almost no defense. Ele has super great sustain and proper defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > Hey we have someone that doesn't know what ele is capable of. > Necro himself has pretty bad sustain and almost no defense. > > Ele has super great sustain and proper defense. Yes, with 800 healing power and all defensive traits and utilities. You can do that on every class to improve sustain, but ele **has** to do it to get some decent self sustain, it doesnt get it otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > Hey we have someone that doesn't know what ele is capable of. > > Necro himself has pretty bad sustain and almost no defense. > > > > Ele has super great sustain and proper defense. > > Yes, with 800 healing power and all defensive traits and utilities. You can do that on every class to improve sustain, but ele **has** to do it to get some decent self sustain, it doesnt get it otherwise. Erm... I have a ele as well. And compared to necro it has amazing sustain and defense while still doing a lot of dmg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > Hey we have someone that doesn't know what ele is capable of. > > > Necro himself has pretty bad sustain and almost no defense. > > > > > > Ele has super great sustain and proper defense. > > > > Yes, with 800 healing power and all defensive traits and utilities. You can do that on every class to improve sustain, but ele **has** to do it to get some decent self sustain, it doesnt get it otherwise. > > Erm... I have a ele as well. And compared to necro it has amazing sustain and defense while still doing a lot of dmg... Can you share your build? I'd love to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > Hey we have someone that doesn't know what ele is capable of. > > > > Necro himself has pretty bad sustain and almost no defense. > > > > > > > > Ele has super great sustain and proper defense. > > > > > > Yes, with 800 healing power and all defensive traits and utilities. You can do that on every class to improve sustain, but ele **has** to do it to get some decent self sustain, it doesnt get it otherwise. > > > > Erm... I have a ele as well. And compared to necro it has amazing sustain and defense while still doing a lot of dmg... > > Can you share your build? I'd love to see that. It's like marauder with some celestial mixed in. Nothing special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foarequiem.9013 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 If the elementalist is so strong, it is a good thing and will allow a replacement of scourges. So inside squad less scourges and more diversity of classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > Hey we have someone that doesn't know what ele is capable of. > > > > > Necro himself has pretty bad sustain and almost no defense. > > > > > > > > > > Ele has super great sustain and proper defense. > > > > > > > > Yes, with 800 healing power and all defensive traits and utilities. You can do that on every class to improve sustain, but ele **has** to do it to get some decent self sustain, it doesnt get it otherwise. > > > > > > Erm... I have a ele as well. And compared to necro it has amazing sustain and defense while still doing a lot of dmg... > > > > Can you share your build? I'd love to see that. > > It's like marauder with some celestial mixed in. Nothing special. I didnt mean just gear stats, full build. Then compare stats and number of offensive/defensive traits with necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh My God.8423 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 I was hoping to play a support Scourge in www. How much does having Sand Savant better than the other two grandmaster? Forgive me if I sound silly but how much different does make with one Sand Savant than 3 little shades? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"steki.1478" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"steki.1478" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey we have someone that doesn't know what ele is capable of. > > > > > > Necro himself has pretty bad sustain and almost no defense. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ele has super great sustain and proper defense. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, with 800 healing power and all defensive traits and utilities. You can do that on every class to improve sustain, but ele **has** to do it to get some decent self sustain, it doesnt get it otherwise. > > > > > > > > Erm... I have a ele as well. And compared to necro it has amazing sustain and defense while still doing a lot of dmg... > > > > > > Can you share your build? I'd love to see that. > > > > It's like marauder with some celestial mixed in. Nothing special. > > I didnt mean just gear stats, full build. Then compare stats and number of offensive/defensive traits with necro. I bet they have water traitline and a lot of celestial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"foarequiem.9013" said: > If the elementalist is so strong, it is a good thing and will allow a replacement of scourges. So inside squad less scourges and more diversity of classes. You stack scourge to stack barrier and accessory deal damage. Elementalists don't stack barrier on allies so nothing will change in this regard, Like some pointed out, it will even be worse since it might need more scourge for the same amount of barrier. Let's be honest, since stability change WvW has become a mess where the necromancer can exert at full power all the filth that he can spew out and no elementalist build can compete against that. But that's assuming that the necromancer take the elementalist spot which is not the case, since the elementalist (Power dps) got replaced by revenant in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty.3268 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Shinnetami.7041" said: > * This is how it was: 10 seconds recharge - 10 seconds duration(100% uptime) > * This is after the change: 30 seconds recharge - 10 seconds duration(30% uptime) > This change means, that scourge is staying more than a half of the time without the shade. That means, that necro has to come close to the enemies. And I would like to remind you, that it has practically no defenses. Of course there is barrier, which gets destroyed in less than a second and 8! Seconds of protection on half of the hp and/or if you take spectral armor. And on top of that we have no shroud. The 30s cooldown is per ammo. So if you cast a new shade every 10s, you will still always have a shade up. Before the change, you could cast a new shade/reposition your shade every 3,33s before you would run of ammo - which was way too short for a cooldown and too forgiving. You could basically just spam your shade everywhere without putting too much thought into finding the right spot. Now you have to, which is a good thing if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinnetami.7041 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Patty.3268" said: > The 30s cooldown is per ammo. So if you cast a new shade every 10s, you will still always have a shade up. Before the change, you could cast a new shade/reposition your shade every 3,33s before you would run of ammo - which was way too short for a cooldown and too forgiving. You could basically just spam your shade everywhere without putting too much thought into finding the right spot. Now you have to, which is a good thing if you ask me. > Oh, I actually counted that in(the ammo part). And I don’t say there should be a 100% uptime of the shade either - skillfull play is when there is a room for mistake, but you don’t make one. What I say is, that no matter how you counted the whole situation through, there will be a moment when necro is left without a shade. It is a lucky moment, if the fight is just over and noone is coming and not so good situation when you have to literally face the enemy. The problem in pvp is - there is almost always someone is coming. This nerf just brought back the situation when necro has to be babysitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 OMG FINALLY. Now nerf the rest of the cooldowns and radius in WvW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty.3268 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Shinnetami.7041" said: > What I say is, that no matter how you counted the whole situation through, there will be a moment when necro is left without a shade. > Only when you use Manifest Sand Shade too often, meaning for than once every 10s. But in this case, being left without a shade is the trade off you get for repositioning it more often. Just like a Thief will be left without initiative when using the weapon skills too often, or an Ele who used an Overload will be left with an increased cooldown for the overloaded attunement. Now the shade cooldown has to be managed just like other resources like initiative, energy, life force, astral force and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinnetami.7041 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Patty.3268" said: > > Only when you use Manifest Sand Shade too often, meaning for than once every 10s. But in this case, being left without a shade is the trade off you get for repositioning it more often. Just like a Thief will be left without initiative when using the weapon skills too often, or an Ele who used an Overload will be left with an increased cooldown for the overloaded attunement. Now the shade cooldown has to be managed just like other resources like initiative, energy, life force, astral force and so on. You are right on this one: we do have to manage it somehow but since we don’t have stealth, mobility, blocks, invulns(like ele, thief etc.) necro can’t really get away from battle. P. S. I tested both Savant and Demonic lore in couple of unranked matches. I can’t say it’s completely unplayable but it’s certainly not enjoyable. It feels really clunky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick.2987 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 It still is a longer lasting well which has an ammo of 3 and same cooldown, increasing boon and conditionduration by 15%, reducing incoming damage by 15% and if traited granting lf, corrupting a boon, applying bleed, cripple, torment, weakness and burning on top of doing direct damage of course. Yes necro has low mobility but keep in mind you can be healed while under barrier (unlike in shroud), you apply barrier to teammates aswell, you have an effective weapon in torch and sandswell for mobility. This makes it still far from useless and probably still meta. On top of that you could just slot in another trait if you are unhappy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 imo it should be reduce shade recharge by 33%, target cap to 5, no radius increase, and reduce condis applied by shades by 50%. blood support is mostly unaffected while damage is nerfed. someone in this thread said feed corruption should apply to nearby allies as well, and i think thats a great change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider.5792 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Patty.3268" said: > > @"Shinnetami.7041" said: > > What I say is, that no matter how you counted the whole situation through, there will be a moment when necro is left without a shade. > > > > Only when you use Manifest Sand Shade too often, meaning for than once every 10s. But in this case, being left without a shade is the trade off you get for repositioning it more often. Just like a Thief will be left without initiative when using the weapon skills too often, or an Ele who used an Overload will be left with an increased cooldown for the overloaded attunement. Now the shade cooldown has to be managed just like other resources like initiative, energy, life force, astral force and so on. Greater shade lasts 10 seconds. If you always want to have it up, you need to spawn one at least every 10 seconds. So using one every 10sec will result in being with none after 40 second (you use 3 in first 30 seconds, by that time one is off cooldown so you spawn the 4th one). When that happens, you will only be able to have a shade up for 10sec every 30sec which means the scourge will be alone without a shade 2/3 of the fight after the first 40sec. Honestly, imo scourge should be able to always have at least 1 shade up, thats the point of scourge, using shade to atack/defend. It would be smarter to decrease ammo cooldown, but increase the cooldown of placing shades to like 5-7sec (if using Sand savant). That way scourge can still have 100% shade uptime, but he can no longer keep repositioning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSeed.3528 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I actually thought this was going to be implemented during the time of the cooldown changes a while back, but maybe they decided to do it only now since the complaints have been escalating. Let's see how much things change from here - as of now it still seems like business as usual, not noticing any changes in comp so far but overall it's going to affect those roamer/small scale types more. Over time I think people will get more used to the positioning and better management of their shades instead of just spamming it so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 The trait in question was a contributor to the majority of the complaints in wvw and pvp. I think now is the time that anet should really start looking into reworking necro if not at the very least rework scourge as just as deadeye was reworked. I say this because even with this drastic or semi drastic change people will still complaint about scourge in the exact same ways. Nothing will change and it will still be too strong and still need nerfing because nothing mechanically changed. This e spec is on its way to being worse that core that said its going take some time to get there but until they change some of its mechanics fluffing a few cooldowns wont do anything to make people feel its more balanced. Shades can still be positioned and on points and maintained for some time in a fight while you wont always have those charges super quick you still have 3 to work with which is usually enough. Change the damn mechanics of MSS already. its bland, its not exciting, not engaging. The traits are bland and focus too much on manifest sandshade without really changing it dynamically in any real way. You would think that you would have traits that changed up the mechanics a bit more (like daredevil dodge traits) so its not always being a ground targeted eyesore while giving grandmaster traits proper weight evenly spread across them rather than Sand Savant holding 70% of the weight in terms of usefulness. I do love necro but i hate scourge with a passion its not very crafty or mind blowing when used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty.3268 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Glider.5792" said: > Greater shade lasts 10 seconds. If you always want to have it up, you need to spawn one at least every 10 seconds. So using one every 10sec will result in being with none after 40 second (you use 3 in first 30 seconds, by that time one is off cooldown so you spawn the 4th one). When that happens, you will only be able to have a shade up for 10sec every 30sec which means the scourge will be alone without a shade 2/3 of the fight after the first 40sec. > Honestly, imo scourge should be able to always have at least 1 shade up, thats the point of scourge, using shade to atack/defend. It would be smarter to decrease ammo cooldown, but increase the cooldown of placing shades to like 5-7sec (if using Sand savant). That way scourge can still have 100% shade uptime, but he can no longer keep repositioning it. You won't be left without a shade after 40s when casting a new shade every 10s, since the cooldown starts when the shade is cast, not when it expires. So right when the third Shade expires, the first one will be available again. See: 0s into the fight: 1st Shade is cast (30s Cooldown) 10s into the fight: 2nd Shade is cast (30s Cooldown), 1st expires (20s Cooldown) 20s into the fight: 3nd Shade is cast (30s Cooldown), 2nd expires (20s Cooldown), 1st still on CD (10s Cooldown) 30s into the fight: 3nd Shade expires (20s Cooldown), 2nd still on CD (10s Cooldown), 1st comes off CD --> Cast again and start over So as long as you don't cast a Shade more than once every 10s, you will have 100% Shade uptime. Tried it just a few minutes ago in WvW, just to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kehno.5764 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Patty.3268" said: > > @"Glider.5792" said: > > Greater shade lasts 10 seconds. If you always want to have it up, you need to spawn one at least every 10 seconds. So using one every 10sec will result in being with none after 40 second (you use 3 in first 30 seconds, by that time one is off cooldown so you spawn the 4th one). When that happens, you will only be able to have a shade up for 10sec every 30sec which means the scourge will be alone without a shade 2/3 of the fight after the first 40sec. > > Honestly, imo scourge should be able to always have at least 1 shade up, thats the point of scourge, using shade to atack/defend. It would be smarter to decrease ammo cooldown, but increase the cooldown of placing shades to like 5-7sec (if using Sand savant). That way scourge can still have 100% shade uptime, but he can no longer keep repositioning it. > > You won't be left without a shade after 40s when casting a new shade every 10s, since the cooldown starts when the shade is cast, not when it expires. So right when the third Shade expires, the first one will be available again. See: > > 0s into the fight: 1st Shade is cast (30s Cooldown) > 10s into the fight: 2nd Shade is cast (30s Cooldown), 1st expires (20s Cooldown) > 20s into the fight: 3nd Shade is cast (30s Cooldown), 2nd expires (20s Cooldown), 1st still on CD (10s Cooldown) > 30s into the fight: 3nd Shade expires (20s Cooldown), 2nd still on CD (10s Cooldown), 1st comes off CD --> Cast again and start over > > So as long as you don't cast a Shade more than once every 10s, you will have 100% Shade uptime. Tried it just a few minutes ago in WvW, just to be sure. You clearly didn't test it, why write such things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahmia.2193 Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Patty.3268" said: > > @"Glider.5792" said: > > Greater shade lasts 10 seconds. If you always want to have it up, you need to spawn one at least every 10 seconds. So using one every 10sec will result in being with none after 40 second (you use 3 in first 30 seconds, by that time one is off cooldown so you spawn the 4th one). When that happens, you will only be able to have a shade up for 10sec every 30sec which means the scourge will be alone without a shade 2/3 of the fight after the first 40sec. > > Honestly, imo scourge should be able to always have at least 1 shade up, thats the point of scourge, using shade to atack/defend. It would be smarter to decrease ammo cooldown, but increase the cooldown of placing shades to like 5-7sec (if using Sand savant). That way scourge can still have 100% shade uptime, but he can no longer keep repositioning it. > > You won't be left without a shade after 40s when casting a new shade every 10s, since the cooldown starts when the shade is cast, not when it expires. So right when the third Shade expires, the first one will be available again. See: > > 0s into the fight: 1st Shade is cast (30s Cooldown) > 10s into the fight: 2nd Shade is cast (30s Cooldown), 1st expires (20s Cooldown) > 20s into the fight: 3nd Shade is cast (30s Cooldown), 2nd expires (20s Cooldown), 1st still on CD (10s Cooldown) > 30s into the fight: 3nd Shade expires (20s Cooldown), 2nd still on CD (10s Cooldown), 1st comes off CD --> Cast again and start over > > So as long as you don't cast a Shade more than once every 10s, you will have 100% Shade uptime. Tried it just a few minutes ago in WvW, just to be sure. That's not how it works. 0s into the fight: 1st Shade is cast (30s Cooldown) 10s into the fight: 2nd Shade is cast, 1st shade is on 20s Cooldown. 20s into the fight: 3nd Shade is cast, 1st still on CD (10s) 30s into the fight: 1st shade recharges. 2nd now starts its own 30s cooldown. This is how it works. Each used ammo does not start its cooldown until the previous ammo has recharged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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