Fractal Frustrations

[The New One.6319]

Recently running into some issues with the EXP tag on NA fractal pug groups. If a group has an EXP tag on it I personally believe that the members of said group should adhere to a proper composition as well as have proper builds for their desired class. For example ran with a straight out of wvw cele necro today in the group where it specifically asked for dps. Axe/focus staff in PVE on necro c'mon man. Or another example is a berserk warrior whom was equiping his twilight for the look of it. Then when they call you toxic for pointing out simple things like builds being incorrect or messing up mechanics it really grinds my gears. I understand in t1s and recs and such non meta builds being okay for your class but beyond that in t4s and CMs I believe it is a hinderance. Any thoughts as to how we fix this in our community?

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

I only have one, sadly negative, thought based on what usually comes up in these discussions:

 

> > @"The New One.6319" said:

> Any thoughts as to how we fix this in our community?

 

This is a people problem, so we can't technology it away. We have to figure out how to get people who never read the forums to understand why they are unwelcome and/or how to fit in, and similar people to help understand how to effectively and nicely communicate that to people who genuinely *don't* know what they are doing wrong.

 

It's hard. I wish I could believe in a technology solution for it, but ... never seen a technology solution fix a people problem. :(

[polvere.2805]

If your dont like the party leave. If your party doesnt Like that person kick.

You can try to be a nice person and gently ask if they can adapt a little bit to the way you want things to be, if they dont respond as gently ad you it's your right to leave or try to kick them. Useless to waste time with people that dont care :)

 

All of this as long as you were clear when lfg the requirements for joining the group. If the lfg said "We want meta or at least no stupid builds" then you can do what i said. If on the lfg is written "chill run" you can play naked for me. I mean common sense should be that when you run t4s you should at least run a pve build.

From playing wow i discovered that common sense doesnt exist since you have to keep kicking people joining raid with full pvp gear

[The New One.6319]

Its the fact that the post is in the 75-100 section how in the world have you still go no clue when you have done at least 75+ fractals. Because isn't that how the system works you cannot look at 75-100 posts until your level is 75.

[Devoneaux.6302]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> I only have one, sadly negative, thought based on what usually comes up in these discussions:

>

> > > @"The New One.6319" said:

> > Any thoughts as to how we fix this in our community?

>

> This is a people problem, so we can't technology it away. We have to figure out how to get people who never read the forums to understand why they are unwelcome and/or how to fit in, and similar people to help understand how to effectively and nicely communicate that to people who genuinely *don't* know what they are doing wrong.

>

> It's hard. I wish I could believe in a technology solution for it, but ... never seen a technology solution fix a people problem. :(

 

You could administrate it away though, adding in a technically optional certification process with a series of instanced single player challenges analogous to fight mechanics with a final level bringing it all together, allowing players to certify themselves on a per-fight basis.

 

Not sure any of this would be particularly welcome or desired but who's to say how effective it'd be?

[Rhatha.2376]

Or you could just be clear about what you want up front. "EXP" to me just means you know the fractal mechanics and says nothing about expecting a certain comp/gearset/traits. If you want a meta group, say so, and you'll prevent frustration for you and whoever joins.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Rhatha.2376" said:

> Or you could just be clear about what you want up front. "EXP" to me just means you know the fractal mechanics and says nothing about expecting a certain comp/gearset/traits. If you want a meta group, say so, and you'll prevent frustration for you and whoever joins.

 

While I wouldn't expect a group just labelled "exp" to exactly adhere to the chrono-druid-warr-2weaver meta or related combos, it should be pretty obvious that celestial staff/axe necro is a junk spec that should not be played by people who know what to do in fractals.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"The New One.6319" said:

> Recently running into some issues with the EXP tag on NA fractal pug groups. If a group has an EXP tag on it I personally believe that the members of said group should adhere to a proper composition as well as have proper builds for their desired class. For example ran with a straight out of wvw cele necro today in the group where it specifically asked for dps. Axe/focus staff in PVE on necro c'mon man. Or another example is a berserk warrior whom was equiping his twilight for the look of it. Then when they call you toxic for pointing out simple things like builds being incorrect or messing up mechanics it really grinds my gears. I understand in t1s and recs and such non meta builds being okay for your class but beyond that in t4s and CMs I believe it is a hinderance. Any thoughts as to how we fix this in our community?

 

Don't rely on the "exp" tag alone. Ask for specific roles and kick the players who don't fit. Your party, your rules. If you have difficulties with these, try putting something in the lines of "toxic elitists only" in the LFG, that will scare away the snowflakes.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

One technique that always works for checking if people read the LFG: include a question. If they don't have an answer upon joining, you know that they aren't paying attention. There are plenty of stellar players who won't read LFG and often, it won't hardly matter.

 

But, if like the OP, you really want your LFG requirements respected, make it easy: ask a question; see if they respond.

 

PS sample questions can be anything, including:

* What's 2+2?

* Do you prefer to skip harpies in uncat or kill them for loot?

* Might-stacking druid or healing?

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Devoneaux.6302" said:

> > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > I only have one, sadly negative, thought based on what usually comes up in these discussions:

> >

> > > > @"The New One.6319" said:

> > > Any thoughts as to how we fix this in our community?

> >

> > This is a people problem, so we can't technology it away. We have to figure out how to get people who never read the forums to understand why they are unwelcome and/or how to fit in, and similar people to help understand how to effectively and nicely communicate that to people who genuinely *don't* know what they are doing wrong.

> >

> > It's hard. I wish I could believe in a technology solution for it, but ... never seen a technology solution fix a people problem. :(

>

> You could administrate it away though, adding in a technically optional certification process with a series of instanced single player challenges analogous to fight mechanics with a final level bringing it all together, allowing players to certify themselves on a per-fight basis.

 

Well, they already do a variant of that: the player couldn't have accessed a group in the 76-100 fractal LFG if they had not gotten a personal fractal level of 76 already, y'know?

 

> Not sure any of this would be particularly welcome or desired but who's to say how effective it'd be?

 

Yeah. I mean, my statement is based on future expectations, which are based on past experiences. This might be the outlier, the thing that convinces me I was wrong, and it'd just been bad implementations before. I own that. I don't ... have much confidence it would, but *shrug*, can't say that it wouldn't.

[thrag.9740]

The best solution is to friend people who dont suck at fractals, and invite them in the future. Add them to a discord, and use the @everyone command. Avoid pugging all together. Let the terrible players who refuse to put in any effort play together in the lfg.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> > Not sure any of this would be particularly welcome or desired but who's to say how effective it'd be?

Tech solutions to social issues nearly always 'fail' because well, people exhibit human behavior. We like what we like, want what we want.

(Where 'fail' means: provide enough benefit to be worth the development effort and the increased 'annoyance' factor to the target audience.)

 

As an example, people are always worried about deleting stuff that they need or meant to keep. So lots of games (including GW2) slow us down: "do you really want to delete that?" and "please type the exact name before deleting." That causes people who **always** triple check to be really annoyed... and doesn't prevent mistakes (since so many of us just ignore the messages after a while).

 

Sometimes there's a less-petulant middle ground, where the tech is mildly annoying and reduces the amount of issues. Then the question is: how much effort is it, what else could be done with the same effort, and is the end result "better enough" that it's worth the trouble for ANet, in order to help the community of an MMO work out communal issues. (Answer: usually not, because the studio has to also support the tool and deal with complaints if it isn't perfect.)

 

It's worth brainstorming solutions, because we might come up with something that is reasonable to implement, not that burdensome to those who already pay attention, and substantially reduces the issue. It's just unlikely that we'll find something great.

 

tl;dr experience tell us tech solutions don't work well on social issues; at best, they can mitigate a bit. Past practices tell us most studios try to avoid investing in them because they end up being costly relative to their benefit.

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

It has been my experience, ever since dungeons, that the "EXP" tag is largely ignored. It is used by people who don't know what it means, ignored by people who do know what it means, and can be misinterpreted in quite a few ways.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Never expect anything from pugs. Your life will be easier and blood pressure lower.

[Deepcuts.9740]

I gave up using lfg with EXP in it.

Most people have no idea what EXP or even Experienced means. Or at least they act like they don't know. Or they think they can just get carried and nobody will notice.

 

Other examples are:

80+ - I get a lot of level 50-60 that get mad if you ask them to leave the party

Food - "lol you don't need food for this, are you noob?"

Potions - "I don't buy potions because I need the relics"

150AR - "What is AR?"

Chill people only please - Rage quit 1st fail

DPS - Most do 5-6K at T4

CM - No clue what do to and don't bother telling anyone they are 1st timers.

Title - "What?"

Full run - they leave after 1st path because that was the only one they needed/wanted

Daily T4s - they leave after the 1st one because that was the only one they needed/wanted

Daily T4s + Rec - they leave after T4s because those were the only ones they needed/wanted

 

 

The point is: get religious and just pray you get decent folks.

[maddoctor.2738]

The only solution that can somewhat work for these kind of problems is for Arenanet to make it easier and better to find a proper static group.

With static groups these issues go away

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Deepcuts.9740" said:

> I gave up using lfg with EXP in it.

> Most people have no idea what EXP or even Experienced means. Or at least they act like they don't know. Or they think they can just get carried and nobody will notice.

>

> Other examples are:

> 80+ - I get a lot of level 50-60 that get mad if you ask them to leave the party

> Food - "lol you don't need food for this, are you noob?"

> Potions - "I don't buy potions because I need the relics"

> 150AR - "What is AR?"

> Chill people only please - Rage quit 1st fail

> DPS - Most do 5-6K at T4

> CM - No clue what do to and don't bother telling anyone they are 1st timers.

> Title - "What?"

> Full run - they leave after 1st path because that was the only one they needed/wanted

> Daily T4s - they leave after the 1st one because that was the only one they needed/wanted

> Daily T4s + Rec - they leave after T4s because those were the only ones they needed/wanted

>

>

> The point is: get religious and just pray you get decent folks.

 

Had thesame experience a few days ago, posted for an exp group to do caudecus manor for some tokens, got a bunch of lvl 40s that didn't know how to put the bombs down on p2.

[Offair.2563]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> The best solution is to friend people who dont suck at fractals, and invite them in the future. Add them to a discord, and use the @everyone command. Avoid pugging all together. Let the terrible players who refuse to put in any effort play together in the lfg.

 

^This and try to find a guild or something with similar people like you.

[MarshallLaw.9260]

> @"The New One.6319" said:

> Recently running into some issues with the EXP tag on NA fractal pug groups. If a group has an EXP tag on it I personally believe that the members of said group should adhere to a proper composition as well as have proper builds for their desired class. For example ran with a straight out of wvw cele necro today in the group where it specifically asked for dps. Axe/focus staff in PVE on necro c'mon man. Or another example is a berserk warrior whom was equiping his twilight for the look of it. Then when they call you toxic for pointing out simple things like builds being incorrect or messing up mechanics it really grinds my gears. I understand in t1s and recs and such non meta builds being okay for your class but beyond that in t4s and CMs I believe it is a hinderance. Any thoughts as to how we fix this in our community?

 

"EXP" technically just implies that players know the mechanics well so kicking them for continually failing a task or going downstate often is not unreasonable if it significantly impacts the progress of the group.

I agree that "EXP" should also imply a _suitable_ build which is either DPS, support/heal or boon gen(like chrono).

Personally I am happy to have a **Marauder** power build instead of full **Zerk** _as long as they still put out decent DPS and don't require babysitting_. Things become unacceptable when a DPS role player has defensive stats stats like vitality, toughness, healing power as their major.

At the end of the day, it's about communication before you start the run. If you're concerned, ask what builds people are running. Personally my tactic recently has been to get on my Tempest healer and start a new group myself "T4 dalies, pots/food - lf DPS". People should be able to figure out my role, or at least ask and most runs are done 1 shot in around 25-40 mins.

.

Perhaps it might be a good idea for the system to change slightly so that each player must have passed the previous tier fractal to be able to access the next. - i.e. cannot do t4 nightmare before having passed t3. This way people might remember the appropriate mechanics.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> The only solution that can somewhat work for these kind of problems is for Arenanet to make it easier and better to find a proper static group.

> With static groups these issues go away

 

You can't really automate that. The very nature of finding a static group means it can't be done by randomly matching people. The closest you could get would be some sort of MMR style system which, should you glance into the PvP forums, you will rapidly learn doesn't make people happy -- even if it is quite accurate.

 

ANet already have forums for discovering guilds, the most likely way to achieve this, and facilities such as friend lists to keep track of people without one.

[Ertrak.9506]

Your being called toxic *because its kitten fractals* my dude. CMs yeah ppl need to be bringing meta builds and comp sure. But even normal t4s? Dude they're already easy. Fractals (cm aside) are literally endgame content made for these types of ppl.

 

Fractals aren't raids. Its fine if you only want to join meta groups but that's on you. That is your problem not the community's problem.

 

Exp only means you know the fractal and the mechanics. It has nothing to do with meta.

 

And before it gets asked yes i run a meta build and run t4 literally everyday. I just don't like how ppl treat this content now. Next you know ppl are going to start requiring meta comps for open world content.

[Regn.1924]

I think your problem is that you use a public group search function and expect people to follow your niche rules, but I could be wrong.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> ANet already have forums for discovering guilds, the most likely way to achieve this, and facilities such as friend lists to keep track of people without one.

 

Forums are being seen only by a tiny minority of players. If there was an in-game way of seeing guilds then everyone could press the appropriate button, be presented with a list of guilds advertising, pick the one they want, the one that fits their needs, and voila.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > ANet already have forums for discovering guilds, the most likely way to achieve this, and facilities such as friend lists to keep track of people without one.

>

> Forums are being seen only by a tiny minority of players. If there was an in-game way of seeing guilds then everyone could press the appropriate button, be presented with a list of guilds advertising, pick the one they want, the one that fits their needs, and voila.

 

FWIW, WoW features one of these, and it is (well, was, up to 2 years ago) quite unhelpful. The volume of guilds, and the extremely limited degree to which they could be described and filtered, meant that unless you were looking for "the first random guild that takes anyone", there was little to no hope of finding anything useful with it.

 

So, while I don't disagree with you that the forums are limited, I don't believe this is likely to be a successful replacement in GW2 either.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > > ANet already have forums for discovering guilds, the most likely way to achieve this, and facilities such as friend lists to keep track of people without one.

> >

> > Forums are being seen only by a tiny minority of players. If there was an in-game way of seeing guilds then everyone could press the appropriate button, be presented with a list of guilds advertising, pick the one they want, the one that fits their needs, and voila.

>

> FWIW, WoW features one of these, and it is (well, was, up to 2 years ago) quite unhelpful. The volume of guilds, and the extremely limited degree to which they could be described and filtered, meant that unless you were looking for "the first random guild that takes anyone", there was little to no hope of finding anything useful with it.

>

> So, while I don't disagree with you that the forums are limited, I don't believe this is likely to be a successful replacement in GW2 either.

 

Well in order for such a feature to work it needs to have filtering and shorting options, more like the Trading Post, if it's like the server browser for PVP hotjoin then it won't work at all.