Frozen.1347 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > Necros do not need more mobility they need to learn to make friends with people who play support. This is a team based game mode not a solo farming game like bdo. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > All these people complaining about damage are playing the game from an extremely disorganized perspective which is to say they're not in a guild. I play with an organized guild I can tell you there's no problem with damage or build diversity for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bring whatever 3/9 basic kitten pug blob you want we will run you over with a 30 man 7/9 comp any day of the week. You don't understand this game when you play it on rookie mode. > > > > > > > > > > Ben P... > > > > > > > > > > “There are just too many AOEs being flung around.” > > > > > > > > > > Your solution... > > > > > > > > > > “I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want to increase potency of AoEs to address the issue of “too many AoEs being flung around”? What do you think Ben’s response would be to that? > > > > > > > > So, that is kind of disingenuous. @"Israel.7056" didnt day he wanted more AOEs. He stated a higher skill cap. > > > > > > > > For all we know, he may want less skills that can AOE. > > > > > > ““I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.” > > > > > > That’s like saying “I think Thief needs more stealth”... > > > > > > > Again, you aren’t addressing what I wrote, and again, he isn’t saying more AOEs are needed. > > > > Like our other poster who has decided to go off topic about single target issues in an AOE thread. > > > > You are not staying true to what was posted. > > > > I neither agree nor disagree at this point as no one has been able to convince me one way or another, and quite honestly, when you bring hyperbole into the argument it devalues your opinion, and that isn’t fair to your position. > > You are not reading that correctly and interpreting it wrong. > > You don’t address problems with AoEs by making AoEs more potent... And asking for an increase in targets is asking for an increase to the overall problem... Actually increasing aoe cap isn't a completely absurd idea to reduce aoe spam even if it seems contradictory at first. Aside from the dmg of some skills being too high, another cause of the "too much aoe spam" issue is, that there are more and more players spamming those aoes. The average zergs have become larger and larger and one reason for stacking as many players as possible in one huge map blob are aoe caps, because those result in reduced dmg taken per individual players. A higher cap could force players to spread out, which would automatically reduce effectiveness of aoes and would make single target skills more valuable. The problem with this is that too many players would cry and potentially quit once their safety in numbers isn't there anymore and they would actually have to l2p to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
displayname.8315 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > Don’t think the issue in this thread is about aoe’s damage in an individual bases but due to design or mechanics whether it’s exploitation or not groups of scourges stacking their ranged aoe’s everywhere in and around a good chunk of area around their team by mindlessly spamming has far to great of a presence within every Zerg battle and should be toned down not gutted. Scourges should be impactful in a team setting as that seems to be a designed strength it has just been tuned a bit too far. > > > > A group that "mindlessly spams" their scourge hit will lose every time to a group that patiently times and coordinates their scourge hit properly. Spamming random shade skills off CD does absolutely nothing against an even semi organized group and wasting wells is even worse as they have relatively longer cds. > > > > The scourge hit itself is usually very easy to avoid, you can literally walk out of it in most cases and it's very well telegraphed because the shade circles are a range indicator that show you about where the wells are going to be going down. Remember that almost all their hard hitting stuff is 900 range or less. Most of the time avoiding a necro hit amounts to dodging once to the left or the right. That's really all it usually takes. The fact that so many people fail at something that simple is mind boggling to me. > > > > As a side note one thing I tend to notice is how many people do not appear to have strafe keys bound as they seemingly only move forwards or backwards which means they're going to have trouble avoiding a scourge hit because they can't quickly dodge left or right. > > if damage wasn't a problem, why people have been pirate shipping like mad crazy since PoF came out. NA is even worse than Eu in that department. Obviously if people don't know that you bomb when closing range... If the commander won't commit to a fight he's probably got a read on his pug zerg and knows he can't. Once he see's a few skill players pulling the bomb, distracting, ganking, then maybe he'll push. Gotta have at least a few skill players or its just a fustercluck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > Necros do not need more mobility they need to learn to make friends with people who play support. This is a team based game mode not a solo farming game like bdo. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > All these people complaining about damage are playing the game from an extremely disorganized perspective which is to say they're not in a guild. I play with an organized guild I can tell you there's no problem with damage or build diversity for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bring whatever 3/9 basic kitten pug blob you want we will run you over with a 30 man 7/9 comp any day of the week. You don't understand this game when you play it on rookie mode. > > > > > > > > > > Ben P... > > > > > > > > > > “There are just too many AOEs being flung around.” > > > > > > > > > > Your solution... > > > > > > > > > > “I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you want to increase potency of AoEs to address the issue of “too many AoEs being flung around”? What do you think Ben’s response would be to that? > > > > > > > > So, that is kind of disingenuous. @"Israel.7056" didnt day he wanted more AOEs. He stated a higher skill cap. > > > > > > > > For all we know, he may want less skills that can AOE. > > > > > > ““I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.” > > > > > > That’s like saying “I think Thief needs more stealth”... > > > > > > > Again, you aren’t addressing what I wrote, and again, he isn’t saying more AOEs are needed. > > > > Like our other poster who has decided to go off topic about single target issues in an AOE thread. > > > > You are not staying true to what was posted. > > > > I neither agree nor disagree at this point as no one has been able to convince me one way or another, and quite honestly, when you bring hyperbole into the argument it devalues your opinion, and that isn’t fair to your position. > > You are not reading that correctly and interpreting it wrong. > > You don’t address problems with AoEs by making AoEs more potent... And asking for an increase in targets is asking for an increase to the overall problem... That would be one way to look at it. Looking at decreasing the number of skills that DO AOES Would decrease them. And I read what Ben wrote more in that direction. And reducing the AOE cap would only encourage more blobbing and stacking. So would less AOEs. Increasing the cap, while simultaneously decreasing the number of skills that do AOE damage could lead to more punishment of blobbing, and maybe reward more coordinated strikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Less aoe’s marking blobbing more an issue? Ur right that does sound like arenet a logic, they’ve done stellar so far lmao. Sure group battles may be more blob like due to most of the combat actually being in melee range which is ten times better than the pirate ship crap we have now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"displayname.8315" said: > > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > Don’t think the issue in this thread is about aoe’s damage in an individual bases but due to design or mechanics whether it’s exploitation or not groups of scourges stacking their ranged aoe’s everywhere in and around a good chunk of area around their team by mindlessly spamming has far to great of a presence within every Zerg battle and should be toned down not gutted. Scourges should be impactful in a team setting as that seems to be a designed strength it has just been tuned a bit too far. > > > > > > A group that "mindlessly spams" their scourge hit will lose every time to a group that patiently times and coordinates their scourge hit properly. Spamming random shade skills off CD does absolutely nothing against an even semi organized group and wasting wells is even worse as they have relatively longer cds. > > > > > > The scourge hit itself is usually very easy to avoid, you can literally walk out of it in most cases and it's very well telegraphed because the shade circles are a range indicator that show you about where the wells are going to be going down. Remember that almost all their hard hitting stuff is 900 range or less. Most of the time avoiding a necro hit amounts to dodging once to the left or the right. That's really all it usually takes. The fact that so many people fail at something that simple is mind boggling to me. > > > > > > As a side note one thing I tend to notice is how many people do not appear to have strafe keys bound as they seemingly only move forwards or backwards which means they're going to have trouble avoiding a scourge hit because they can't quickly dodge left or right. > > > > if damage wasn't a problem, why people have been pirate shipping like mad crazy since PoF came out. NA is even worse than Eu in that department. Obviously if people don't know that you bomb when closing range... > > If the commander won't commit to a fight he's probably got a read on his pug zerg and knows he can't. Once he see's a few skill players pulling the bomb, distracting, ganking, then maybe he'll push. > > Gotta have at least a few skill players or its just a fustercluck. It's not zerg only, guids can pirate ship too. Actually 2 skilled guilds will pirate even more than low skilled zerg because no one wants to commit first. On NA where I think Israel is, guilds spend more time staring at each other than actually fighting.... Balance is in poor state and even if i value Israel's knowledge, i disagree with his analysis of the current situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Less aoe’s marking blobbing more an issue? Ur right that does sound like arenet a logic, they’ve done stellar so far lmao. Sure group battles may be more blob like due to most of the combat actually being in melee range which is ten times better than the pirate ship kitten we have now! I would actually prefer more if the melee range skills to do more single target damage, and on shorter cooldowns while ranged damage be more AOE based (with the exception of projectile skills) and increase their caps, while simultaneously increasing their cooldowns. Back line becomes more of a back line and more vulnerable, but a ball in the frontline following mindlessly, can become more vulnerable to a truly coordinated strike from range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Less aoe’s marking blobbing more an issue? Ur right that does sound like arenet a logic, they’ve done stellar so far lmao. Sure group battles may be more blob like due to most of the combat actually being in melee range which is ten times better than the pirate ship kitten we have now! > > I would actually prefer more if the melee range skills to do more single target damage, and on shorter cooldowns while ranged damage be more AOE based (with the exception of projectile skills) and increase their caps, while simultaneously increasing their cooldowns. > > Back line becomes more of a back line and more vulnerable, but a ball in the frontline following mindlessly, can become more vulnerable to a truly coordinated strike from range. Yeah but melee damage is already so high for some classes and builds that ttk ratio is very fast even against sustain builds. If most classes had to resort to melee than ranged like ranger,dh lb etc would be able to be real backliners tho either don’t need to be. But I’d think range would be more effective if classes that weren’t fitting that role had to be more in melee range. Plus spec like scourge could do their thing effectively if most classes had to melee it, say if scourge aoe couldn’t stack and had reduced range to 400-600. Sure range heavy specs could hardcounter it but they do now anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
displayname.8315 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > @"displayname.8315" said: > > > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > Don’t think the issue in this thread is about aoe’s damage in an individual bases but due to design or mechanics whether it’s exploitation or not groups of scourges stacking their ranged aoe’s everywhere in and around a good chunk of area around their team by mindlessly spamming has far to great of a presence within every Zerg battle and should be toned down not gutted. Scourges should be impactful in a team setting as that seems to be a designed strength it has just been tuned a bit too far. > > > > > > > > A group that "mindlessly spams" their scourge hit will lose every time to a group that patiently times and coordinates their scourge hit properly. Spamming random shade skills off CD does absolutely nothing against an even semi organized group and wasting wells is even worse as they have relatively longer cds. > > > > > > > > The scourge hit itself is usually very easy to avoid, you can literally walk out of it in most cases and it's very well telegraphed because the shade circles are a range indicator that show you about where the wells are going to be going down. Remember that almost all their hard hitting stuff is 900 range or less. Most of the time avoiding a necro hit amounts to dodging once to the left or the right. That's really all it usually takes. The fact that so many people fail at something that simple is mind boggling to me. > > > > > > > > As a side note one thing I tend to notice is how many people do not appear to have strafe keys bound as they seemingly only move forwards or backwards which means they're going to have trouble avoiding a scourge hit because they can't quickly dodge left or right. > > > > > > if damage wasn't a problem, why people have been pirate shipping like mad crazy since PoF came out. NA is even worse than Eu in that department. Obviously if people don't know that you bomb when closing range... > > > > If the commander won't commit to a fight he's probably got a read on his pug zerg and knows he can't. Once he see's a few skill players pulling the bomb, distracting, ganking, then maybe he'll push. > > > > Gotta have at least a few skill players or its just a fustercluck. > > It's not zerg only, guids can pirate ship too. Actually 2 skilled guilds will pirate even more than low skilled zerg because no one wants to commit first. On NA where I think Israel is, guilds spend more time staring at each other than actually fighting.... Balance is in poor state and even if i value Israel's knowledge, i disagree with his analysis of the current situation. Some guilds are newer or rebuilding numbers/recruiting ect. It's rare to see the really good guilds do that. Some do like to setup for awhile and feel things out but they usually end up doing stealth pushes or positioning manuvers. Thats if they don't have any aggressors or outright gank in their roster or guild comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > Less aoe’s marking blobbing more an issue? Ur right that does sound like arenet a logic, they’ve done stellar so far lmao. Sure group battles may be more blob like due to most of the combat actually being in melee range which is ten times better than the pirate ship kitten we have now! > > > > I would actually prefer more if the melee range skills to do more single target damage, and on shorter cooldowns while ranged damage be more AOE based (with the exception of projectile skills) and increase their caps, while simultaneously increasing their cooldowns. > > > > Back line becomes more of a back line and more vulnerable, but a ball in the frontline following mindlessly, can become more vulnerable to a truly coordinated strike from range. > > Yeah but melee damage is already so high for some classes and builds that ttk ratio is very fast even against sustain builds. If most classes had to resort to melee than ranged like ranger,dh lb etc would be able to be real backliners tho either don’t need to be. But I’d think range would be more effective if classes that weren’t fitting that role had to be more in melee range. Plus spec like scourge could do their thing effectively if most classes had to melee it, say if scourge aoe couldn’t stack and had reduced range to 400-600. Sure range heavy specs could hardcounter it but they do now anyway Actually what you guys wish is about lowering aoe damage instead of target cap. If you reduce aoe target cap you force 20 mandatory scourge in every squad by pushing out any non mandatory. To achieve that you end up playing 20 FB to support them, which means no more range in main squad and the only time you can reliably count on a decent range party is reset where having 20 range is already happening. Careful what you wish for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"displayname.8315" said: > > > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > > @"displayname.8315" said: > > > > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > Don’t think the issue in this thread is about aoe’s damage in an individual bases but due to design or mechanics whether it’s exploitation or not groups of scourges stacking their ranged aoe’s everywhere in and around a good chunk of area around their team by mindlessly spamming has far to great of a presence within every Zerg battle and should be toned down not gutted. Scourges should be impactful in a team setting as that seems to be a designed strength it has just been tuned a bit too far. > > > > > > > > > > A group that "mindlessly spams" their scourge hit will lose every time to a group that patiently times and coordinates their scourge hit properly. Spamming random shade skills off CD does absolutely nothing against an even semi organized group and wasting wells is even worse as they have relatively longer cds. > > > > > > > > > > The scourge hit itself is usually very easy to avoid, you can literally walk out of it in most cases and it's very well telegraphed because the shade circles are a range indicator that show you about where the wells are going to be going down. Remember that almost all their hard hitting stuff is 900 range or less. Most of the time avoiding a necro hit amounts to dodging once to the left or the right. That's really all it usually takes. The fact that so many people fail at something that simple is mind boggling to me. > > > > > > > > > > As a side note one thing I tend to notice is how many people do not appear to have strafe keys bound as they seemingly only move forwards or backwards which means they're going to have trouble avoiding a scourge hit because they can't quickly dodge left or right. > > > > > > > > if damage wasn't a problem, why people have been pirate shipping like mad crazy since PoF came out. NA is even worse than Eu in that department. Obviously if people don't know that you bomb when closing range... > > > > > > If the commander won't commit to a fight he's probably got a read on his pug zerg and knows he can't. Once he see's a few skill players pulling the bomb, distracting, ganking, then maybe he'll push. > > > > > > Gotta have at least a few skill players or its just a fustercluck. > > > > It's not zerg only, guids can pirate ship too. Actually 2 skilled guilds will pirate even more than low skilled zerg because no one wants to commit first. On NA where I think Israel is, guilds spend more time staring at each other than actually fighting.... Balance is in poor state and even if i value Israel's knowledge, i disagree with his analysis of the current situation. > > Some guilds are newer or rebuilding numbers/recruiting ect. It's rare to see the really good guilds do that. Some do like to setup for awhile and feel things out but they usually end up doing stealth pushes or positioning manuvers. Thats if they don't have any aggressors or outright gank in their roster or guild comp. > Positioning maneuvers for 10 min is pirate ship and the stronger they are, the more shipping they do. Newer guilds might be hesitant at first but they wont be patient enough not to engage or flee. None or those 2 actions are pirate ship :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 No what I want is a reduction in range and ability to stack their aoe’s together. If a groups dumb enough to run 20 scourges that cant STACK their aoe’s than I’d be suicide because most classes can out sustain a scourges damage if it can’t stack its aoe’s and if it’s range is cut, sure it weaken enemies as it should but without melee support they’d get run over like they should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > No what I want is a reduction in range and ability to stack their aoe’s together. If a groups dumb enough to run 20 scourges that cant STACK their aoe’s than I’d be suicide because most classes can out sustain a scourges damage if it can’t stack its aoe’s and if it’s range is cut, sure it weaken enemies as it should but without melee support they’d get run over like they should I was more answering to stryder. What you want with DH and lots of range already exists thanks to the range damage, it's called "Clouding" and it's so boring that people would rather DC than chase them. It doesn't solve any problem, just make people quit the game. Not being able to stack aoe makes pirate ship worse, you can't physically occupy the field so you play defensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
displayname.8315 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > @"displayname.8315" said: > > > > > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > > > @"displayname.8315" said: > > > > > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > > Don’t think the issue in this thread is about aoe’s damage in an individual bases but due to design or mechanics whether it’s exploitation or not groups of scourges stacking their ranged aoe’s everywhere in and around a good chunk of area around their team by mindlessly spamming has far to great of a presence within every Zerg battle and should be toned down not gutted. Scourges should be impactful in a team setting as that seems to be a designed strength it has just been tuned a bit too far. > > > > > > > > > > > > A group that "mindlessly spams" their scourge hit will lose every time to a group that patiently times and coordinates their scourge hit properly. Spamming random shade skills off CD does absolutely nothing against an even semi organized group and wasting wells is even worse as they have relatively longer cds. > > > > > > > > > > > > The scourge hit itself is usually very easy to avoid, you can literally walk out of it in most cases and it's very well telegraphed because the shade circles are a range indicator that show you about where the wells are going to be going down. Remember that almost all their hard hitting stuff is 900 range or less. Most of the time avoiding a necro hit amounts to dodging once to the left or the right. That's really all it usually takes. The fact that so many people fail at something that simple is mind boggling to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > As a side note one thing I tend to notice is how many people do not appear to have strafe keys bound as they seemingly only move forwards or backwards which means they're going to have trouble avoiding a scourge hit because they can't quickly dodge left or right. > > > > > > > > > > if damage wasn't a problem, why people have been pirate shipping like mad crazy since PoF came out. NA is even worse than Eu in that department. Obviously if people don't know that you bomb when closing range... > > > > > > > > If the commander won't commit to a fight he's probably got a read on his pug zerg and knows he can't. Once he see's a few skill players pulling the bomb, distracting, ganking, then maybe he'll push. > > > > > > > > Gotta have at least a few skill players or its just a fustercluck. > > > > > > It's not zerg only, guids can pirate ship too. Actually 2 skilled guilds will pirate even more than low skilled zerg because no one wants to commit first. On NA where I think Israel is, guilds spend more time staring at each other than actually fighting.... Balance is in poor state and even if i value Israel's knowledge, i disagree with his analysis of the current situation. > > > > Some guilds are newer or rebuilding numbers/recruiting ect. It's rare to see the really good guilds do that. Some do like to setup for awhile and feel things out but they usually end up doing stealth pushes or positioning manuvers. Thats if they don't have any aggressors or outright gank in their roster or guild comp. > > > > Positioning maneuvers for 10 min is pirate ship and the stronger they are, the more shipping they do. Newer guilds might be hesitant at first but they wont be patient enough not to engage or flee. None or those 2 actions are pirate ship :D Agreed. When your group is too bad to push that's a bummer. I leave the zerg after a bit and start ganking or try to lure 1 or 2 to fight.. depending on the class im playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > Less aoe’s marking blobbing more an issue? Ur right that does sound like arenet a logic, they’ve done stellar so far lmao. Sure group battles may be more blob like due to most of the combat actually being in melee range which is ten times better than the pirate ship kitten we have now! > > > > > > I would actually prefer more if the melee range skills to do more single target damage, and on shorter cooldowns while ranged damage be more AOE based (with the exception of projectile skills) and increase their caps, while simultaneously increasing their cooldowns. > > > > > > Back line becomes more of a back line and more vulnerable, but a ball in the frontline following mindlessly, can become more vulnerable to a truly coordinated strike from range. > > > > Yeah but melee damage is already so high for some classes and builds that ttk ratio is very fast even against sustain builds. If most classes had to resort to melee than ranged like ranger,dh lb etc would be able to be real backliners tho either don’t need to be. But I’d think range would be more effective if classes that weren’t fitting that role had to be more in melee range. Plus spec like scourge could do their thing effectively if most classes had to melee it, say if scourge aoe couldn’t stack and had reduced range to 400-600. Sure range heavy specs could hardcounter it but they do now anyway > > Actually what you guys wish is about lowering aoe damage instead of target cap. If you reduce aoe target cap you force 20 mandatory scourge in every squad by pushing out any non mandatory. To achieve that you end up playing 20 FB to support them, which means no more range in main squad and the only time you can reliably count on a decent range party is reset where having 20 range is already happening. Careful what you wish for. I didn’t ask for less AOE damage. I asked for less AOEs per class, and increase the target cap of those that are at range. I also noted a longer cooldown for higher damage ranged AOE, with shorter cooldowns for melee, while reducing the number of targets for melee attacks (ranges 300 and below) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > Less aoe’s marking blobbing more an issue? Ur right that does sound like arenet a logic, they’ve done stellar so far lmao. Sure group battles may be more blob like due to most of the combat actually being in melee range which is ten times better than the pirate ship kitten we have now! > > > > > > > > I would actually prefer more if the melee range skills to do more single target damage, and on shorter cooldowns while ranged damage be more AOE based (with the exception of projectile skills) and increase their caps, while simultaneously increasing their cooldowns. > > > > > > > > Back line becomes more of a back line and more vulnerable, but a ball in the frontline following mindlessly, can become more vulnerable to a truly coordinated strike from range. > > > > > > Yeah but melee damage is already so high for some classes and builds that ttk ratio is very fast even against sustain builds. If most classes had to resort to melee than ranged like ranger,dh lb etc would be able to be real backliners tho either don’t need to be. But I’d think range would be more effective if classes that weren’t fitting that role had to be more in melee range. Plus spec like scourge could do their thing effectively if most classes had to melee it, say if scourge aoe couldn’t stack and had reduced range to 400-600. Sure range heavy specs could hardcounter it but they do now anyway > > > > Actually what you guys wish is about lowering aoe damage instead of target cap. If you reduce aoe target cap you force 20 mandatory scourge in every squad by pushing out any non mandatory. To achieve that you end up playing 20 FB to support them, which means no more range in main squad and the only time you can reliably count on a decent range party is reset where having 20 range is already happening. Careful what you wish for. > > I didn’t ask for less AOE damage. I asked for less AOEs per class, and increase the target cap of those that are at range. I also noted a longer cooldown for higher damage ranged AOE, with shorter cooldowns for melee, while reducing the number of targets for melee attacks (ranges 300 and below) I know, my sentence wasn't making sense. I meant that what you wish for won't turn up the way you expect it. This is Ele's kind of design but by copying Ele to every range, you make ele even stronger with pulsing aoe while making other ranges being supplanted. Remember weaver during meteor shower bug? You can't have higher damage than what we have nowadays without reducing radius regardless of CD and ele's design is not about killing but providing high pressure support to maneuver enemy for your melee to push (like in core). By slightly lowering damage on Rev, as i would like, you just make him good at what he is supposed to and end up lowering its number in groups while giving more room to other range options like weaver. Scourge shade need a rework so it's played as condi and there will have no need to stack as much as long as its damage is not close to release. Melee problem has nothing to do with damage or target cap, it's just nonexistent at this point beside FB and scourge (which has range abilities). Reduce prevalence stacking of Rev and scourge in groups by making damage balanced and you might actually see more build diversity where melee plays melee and range can play range. There is no need to reduce or increase target cap to achieve that (outside of abusive shade), just balance around damage modifiers, aoe radius and duration numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 Something to chew on folks... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolt 5 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruin 5 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smash 5 Targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer 5 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp 5 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood 5 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains 5 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark 5 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper's_Mark 5 targets Max Count 3 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade 3 targets - 1 hammer Revenant and 1 staff Scourge have access to 12 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 54 targets. - 2 hammer Revenants and 2 staff Scourges have access to 24 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 108 targets. - 3 hammer Revenants and 3 staff Scourges have access to 36 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 162 targets. - 4 hammer Revenants and 4 staff Scourges have access to 48 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 216 targets. - 5 hammer Revenants and 5 staff Scourges have access to 60 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 270 targets. - 6 hammer Revenants and 6 staff Scourges have access to 72 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 324 targets. - 7 hammer Revenants and 7 staff Scourges have access to 84 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 378 targets. - 8 hammer Revenants and 8 staff Scourges have access to 96 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 432 targets. - 9 hammer Revenants and 9 staff Scourges have access to 108 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 486 targets. - 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges have access to 120 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 540 targets. 2 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 1,080 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total. 3 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 1,620 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total. And we are not even factoring in calculations from other Ranged AoE attacks, PBAoE attacks, Condis, Buffs, Heals, passives... and all sorts of other things the system has to process… So if we reduced all ranged AoEs in the example above to 3, and remove ranged Shades from Scourge, it looks like this… NEW NUMBERS USING MY SUGGESTION... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolt 3 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruin 3 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smash 3 Targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer 3 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp 3 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood 3 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains 3 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark 3 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper's_Mark 3 targets - 1 hammer Revenant and 1 staff Scourge have access to 9 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 27 targets. - 2 hammer Revenants and 2 staff Scourges have access to 18 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 54 targets. - 3 hammer Revenants and 3 staff Scourges have access to 27 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 81 targets. - 4 hammer Revenants and 4 staff Scourges have access to 36 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 108 targets. - 5 hammer Revenants and 5 staff Scourges have access to 45 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 135 targets. - 6 hammer Revenants and 6 staff Scourges have access to 54 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 162 targets. - 7 hammer Revenants and 7 staff Scourges have access to 63 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 189 targets. - 8 hammer Revenants and 8 staff Scourges have access to 72 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 216 targets. - 9 hammer Revenants and 9 staff Scourges have access to 81 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 243 targets. - 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges have access to 90 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 270 targets. 2 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are now producing 540 target ranged AoEs using 1 AoE skill EACH in total. 3 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 810 target ranged AoEs using 1 AoE skill EACH in total. Now imagine if we extended this 3 target limit to ALL other ranged AoE skills, PBAoE skills, AoE buffs and AoE heals? We could basically cut out HALF of the calculations the system needs to make inside of WvW… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > Now imagine if we extended this 3 target limit to ALL other ranged AoE skills, PBAoE skills, AoE buffs and AoE heals? We could basically cut out HALF of the calculations the system needs to make inside of WvW… ...and in so doing force people to stack even more aoes since that is the most effective tactic. since more stacking at this point would be impossible, it would revert into meleeball sustain meta where nothing dies since offensive aoes heavily outnumber defensive aoes. this in turn would mean the side with 1 less person would lose. positioning would mean nothing, coordinated bombs would mean nothing, it would be a wet noodle slug fest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Remove aoe stacking of same skill/class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > Now imagine if we extended this 3 target limit to ALL other ranged AoE skills, PBAoE skills, AoE buffs and AoE heals? We could basically cut out HALF of the calculations the system needs to make inside of WvW… > > ...and in so doing force people to stack even more aoes since that is the most effective tactic. since more stacking at this point would be impossible, it would revert into meleeball sustain meta where nothing dies since offensive aoes heavily outnumber defensive aoes. this in turn would mean the side with 1 less person would lose. positioning would mean nothing, coordinated bombs would mean nothing, it would be a wet noodle slug fest. I rather have my ideas implemented than yours... Under your 10 target wishlist to address Ben's "too many AoEs being flung around"... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolt 10 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruin 10 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smash 10 Targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer 10 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp 10 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood 10 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains 10 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark 10 targets https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper's_Mark 10 targets Max Count 3 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade 10 targets - 1 hammer Revenant and 1 staff Scourge have access to 12 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 120 targets. - 2 hammer Revenants and 2 staff Scourges have access to 24 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 240 targets. - 3 hammer Revenants and 3 staff Scourges have access to 36 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 360 targets. - 4 hammer Revenants and 4 staff Scourges have access to 48 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 480 targets. - 5 hammer Revenants and 5 staff Scourges have access to 60 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 600 targets. - 6 hammer Revenants and 6 staff Scourges have access to 72 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 720 targets. - 7 hammer Revenants and 7 staff Scourges have access to 84 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 840 targets. - 8 hammer Revenants and 8 staff Scourges have access to 96 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 960 targets. - 9 hammer Revenants and 9 staff Scourges have access to 108 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 1,080 targets. - 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges have access to 120 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 1,200 targets. 2 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 2,400 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total. 3 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 3,600 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total. These figures obviously don't include all the other potential 10 target AoEs you desire... You don't want to address any problems, you just want to make them worse... You are not even putting any thought into the repercussion of a 10 target change, nor its effects upon the game engine for mass player battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 The same skills need to stop stacking with themselves on players. A thousand lava fonts on a champion? Perfectly fine, let them all hit. Two lava fonts under the feet of a player? Only the highest damage one gets to hit that player. The rest will have to hit someone else. This is just one of the things that need to happen, but one of the most important ones. That would not only reduce overturned damage on individual players, it would also discourage build stacking and encourage diversification, as a squad full of players with the same build would have less damage potential per individual enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > The same skills need to stop stacking with themselves on players. > A thousand lava fonts on a champion? Perfectly fine, let them all hit. > Two lava fonts under the feet of a player? Only the highest damage one gets to hit that player. The rest will have to hit someone else. > > This is just one of the things that need to happen, but one of the most important ones. > > That would not only reduce overturned damage on individual players, it would also discourage build stacking and encourage diversification, as a squad full of players with the same build would have less damage potential per individual enemy. I can understand that suggestion, however the devs can’t make a system that potentially nullifies a players skill. Players don’t want that either, and you may find yourself in the position where your entire set of weapon skills do not function because other players used those exact same skills. Honestly won’t work the way you might envision it to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 If you want to nerf aoe damage you also have to nerf defense. The damage is there to get around certain things like protection resistance and foods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlySynz.3471 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Having 17000 hp’s and getting deleted by one succession of rapid fire at range is indeed a problem. What's also a problem is if that same rapid fire coming from a full zerk doesn't crack 2K damage against a tanky target.. yet that same tanky target would delete zerker character in 2 hits. That's far more of an issue. In fact, the bigger issue is the sheer amount of damage tanky people can shell out. It shouldn't be questioned or even an issue if someone glassy is hitting you hard, that's the idea, they are in full damage. But why is it when someone in tanky gear (even someone sitting in Minstrels) can destroy someone not in tanky gear in less than 5 hits? Here is an example, I often see in map chat someone boasting about the damage their melee attack did. "Wow I just hit them for 4K" (and this person is sitting in mainly PvT gear). Why is someone who is running this gear hitting that hard? Makes no sense. The majority of their hits shouldn't break 500 with the rare occasion of hitting 1K. People complain that there is so much damage floating about (and they're right), but glass cannons aren't the issue; nor are scourges (A scourge bomb from a single scourge is laughable). It's the volume of damage coming from melee or close-quarter hits from tanky players that's the problem. 3-4 of them swinging will vaporize someone whose in full tanky gear. When in actuality, even if a dozen of them are swinging at you, you should be able to walk in and walk out barely unscathed much like warriors tend to do. Anet doesn't need to touch offensive AoE's or even high damage ranged attacks, they need to zero in on the amount of damage tanky gear deals. That needs a huge hit in the neighborhood of 75-90% reduction. Anet does that; players will be living considerably longer in clashes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuks.8241 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > The same skills need to stop stacking with themselves on players. > > A thousand lava fonts on a champion? Perfectly fine, let them all hit. > > Two lava fonts under the feet of a player? Only the highest damage one gets to hit that player. The rest will have to hit someone else. > > > > This is just one of the things that need to happen, but one of the most important ones. > > > > That would not only reduce overturned damage on individual players, it would also discourage build stacking and encourage diversification, as a squad full of players with the same build would have less damage potential per individual enemy. > > I can understand that suggestion, however the devs can’t make a system that potentially nullifies a players skill. Players don’t want that either, and you may find yourself in the position where your entire set of weapon skills do not function because other players used those exact same skills. Honestly won’t work the way you might envision it to work. Actually that is quite common in games to prevent insane aoe spamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 > @"Cuks.8241" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > The same skills need to stop stacking with themselves on players. > > > A thousand lava fonts on a champion? Perfectly fine, let them all hit. > > > Two lava fonts under the feet of a player? Only the highest damage one gets to hit that player. The rest will have to hit someone else. > > > > > > This is just one of the things that need to happen, but one of the most important ones. > > > > > > That would not only reduce overturned damage on individual players, it would also discourage build stacking and encourage diversification, as a squad full of players with the same build would have less damage potential per individual enemy. > > > > I can understand that suggestion, however the devs can’t make a system that potentially nullifies a players skill. Players don’t want that either, and you may find yourself in the position where your entire set of weapon skills do not function because other players used those exact same skills. Honestly won’t work the way you might envision it to work. > > Actually that is quite common in games to prevent insane aoe spamming. It is. That's why I mentioned. But it's used mostly for AoEs, I just forgot to mention that bit. Also, it would not prevent two people with the same skill from doing damage to the same person with them, it would only prevent it when done at the same time. Meaning that players could take turns using different AoEs, making sure their rotations are not synchronized on the same skills. So with 3 elementalists, one could could pop lava font while the other does meteor shower, and then switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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