Sampson.2403 Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 Even without MC and EM condi mirages ability to put out the volume of condis that it does is str8t up too much. Add the ability to cover applying that volume risk free with MC and EM and you have a broken combo. Also MC has several supporting condi traits. Reduce the condi pressure and then revaluate. As much as i hate to admit it, EM probably needs to be nerfed as well, and i hope the mesmer gods have mercy on my soul for saying that. My vote is to put EM dodge break on a 15 second cool down, remove the exhaustion. Maybe this isn't enough, maybe EM needs to just go away completely. But if you do that, nerf fullcounter and nerf something on engis as well... But MC should stay as is otherwise you mine as well just redo the entire spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak. > > > > > > > > Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak. > > > > Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime. > > > > > > > > Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go. > > > > > > Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away. > > > > > > At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec. > > > > No. > > > > The main gimmick of the spec is looking more like a clone and being harder to tell apart from them. > > > > That's actually incorrect, or half incorrect. > Taken specifically from the Developer Showcase August 1 2017 And I quote > "Their deception skills baffle enemies and create fragile constructs that shatter when touched creating mirage cloaks to avoid enemy attacks instead of dodging them." > They basically made the entire spec around evasion, and deception. Taking action while dodging fits especially since clones also have the ability to gain mirage cloak.- > If the ability to do actions while dodging was removed, you would indeed need to do something else with the espec. > Personally, building an espec around gimmick evasion in this game especially since we JUST came from an episode of perma evade thieves and the cries about them screams poor judgement, and lack of communal knowledge. > But this isn't an esports game, PvP is the lowest denominator, and you will most likely never see mirage cloak gutted or removed, because of that fact. > > > > Anything else should not be usable during a mirage cloak, because then they have too much time of non-interruptable activations. > > > This is interesting because would that mean you cant break stun or use and instant skill while dodgeing, because I can thing of a couple of classes that can pop skills mid dodge ( specifically thief comes to mind) > > > > No matter how you look at it there's too much visual spam. Well, you can't look at it at all, because all the phantasms all over the place covering everything. Regardless of how powerful or weak they are, they are too much clutter. Clutter has to go. > Visual clutter is mostly an engine problem, as some people still have the images of shattered clones persist on the screen instead of dissappearing. If you cant tell the difference between a phantasm and clone you need to do something more than complain.. Clones can be killed in two AA's if you are power anything, OR one well placed AoE which EVERY class has access to. > If your arguement then becomes..But they make more clones. > YEs....That is the CLASS MECHANIC of mesmer, and AA doesn't have a CD > All that says is exactly what I said. Dodges are replaced with mirage cloak to "baffle enemies", and yes, it says mirages get a lot of extra evading, but it doesn't say they are supposed to be able to use any and all of their skills while evading. What that says comes down to "Mirages are harder to tell apart from clones and can evade more frequently". It doesn't say they are entitled to use all their skills while evading to almost completely ignore interruptions, since the only thing that can touch them while evading is wards like Static Field, Ring of Warding and Spectral Wall, which you can't really expect everyone to bring along, and which are realy easily avoidable, since all you have to do to avoid them is not walk, and mirage cloak pretty obviously an evade you use without walking at all. And you WOULD be able to break stun. Because most stun breaks do not have an activation time or aftercast, so they can be used during a dodge, and anything that can't be used during a dodge gets queued so it starts at the end of the dodge. In fact, the only mesmer stun break I remember that has an activation time is a Chornomancer well, so that doesn't concern the mirage. Daredevil also replaced their dodges with separate skills, yet they are still able to use anything that can be used during a dodge, and still unable to use anything else, but it gets queued normally. So it's not like the default dodge is so unique. Whatever it can do it can be replicated and altered. I specifically indicated that anything that can be used during a normal dodge should be usable during a mirage cloak normally: * Things that should stay usable during mirage cloak: * Anything the core mesmer can already use during an evade, like skills with no activation time such as shatters. * Anything specific to the mirage: Ambushes, Deceptions and Mirage Axe skills. * Not usable during cloak, but gets queued until the end of the cloak like when using them during a dodge: * Anything else. And no. Visual clutter isn't an engine problem, it's a design problem. Shape of models and the like. But it's not a problem that is easy to solve. Make allied effects and AI more translucent, and it'd be hardly visible between enemy effects, it'd be hard to coordinate attacks. Make enemy effects and creatures less visible, you'll get people feeling they are being hit by invisible stuff. That kind of clutter also needs addressing, but fixing that may never happens until someone figures a solution that doesn't look horrible or hinders combat. Phantasm spam on the other hand can be easily solved with a cap. No more spam covering the screen, eating away all projectiles, using up AoE slots and working as more of a health wall than the should be, if they are kept down to 3 at a time. Their clutter just has to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak. > > > > > > Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak. > > > Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime. > > > > > > Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go. > > > > Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away. > > > > At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec. > > No other spec have as powerful a gimmick as Mirage's, with scourges only coming in close because their shades are instant cast (although with a delay now) and daredevil having an extra dodge. Having access to basically a 1s invul on every dodge is too much. It's just as much a gimmick if mirages are only allowed to use certain skills during mirage cloak, and that's already an upgrade compared to a lot of other specs that only have normal dodges where they can't even do anything else. Dragonhunters gimmick is to downgrade all the gimmicks from the core class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 What if entering Mirage Cloak mid cast any skill cancels the skill, but the Mirage can precast Mirage Cloak just before the skill instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak. > > > > > > Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak. > > > Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime. > > > > > > Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go. There are relatively few phantasm skills, they have reasonably high cooldowns, and vanish quickly. I'm sympathetic, but I don't think they generate more animations than various other skills and abilities do -- and they tend to stand at least a bit out of the center of the action. If you just mean that they are a distraction that can divert you from the real mesmer, I feel less sympathetic, as that, too, has long been a part of the defensive toolkit of the class. > > Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away. > > > > At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec. > > No other spec have as powerful a gimmick as Mirage's, with scourges only coming in close because their shades are instant cast (although with a delay now) and daredevil having an extra dodge. Having access to basically a 1s invul on every dodge is too much. It's just as much a gimmick if mirages are only allowed to use certain skills during mirage cloak, and that's already an upgrade compared to a lot of other specs that only have normal dodges where they can't even do anything else. One second is 0.25 seconds more than a plain dodge, something that is coincidentally a 33 percent improvement over baseline. That number should be familiar because, well, it shows up a bunch in enhancements to abilities. It is also a total "immunity" time of 2s, compared to 1.5s for normal dodge, and 2.25s for DD. It is sure powerful, but it comes with a cost -- manually moving out of damage rather than automatically -- and is not nearly the dramatic increase you suggest. I'm pretty sure that using the same sigils and food to boost dodge on other classes would have a similarly large effect increasing their ability to not be hit. Not to say that it couldn't change, but I don't think it is as large a bonus as you suggest here. (Also, shade abilities are instant cast, the shades themselves are slotted in as normal spells, so delayed by other actions.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Condi isn't the problem. Certain builds are the problem. If you don't believe me, try playing condi ranger, condi rev, condi engi in PvP. They're trash-tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > > Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak. > > > > > > > > > > Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak. > > > > > Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go. > > > > > > > > Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away. > > > > > > > > At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec. > > > > > > No. > > > > > > The main gimmick of the spec is looking more like a clone and being harder to tell apart from them. > > > > > > > That's actually incorrect, or half incorrect. > > Taken specifically from the Developer Showcase August 1 2017 And I quote > > "Their deception skills baffle enemies and create fragile constructs that shatter when touched creating mirage cloaks to avoid enemy attacks instead of dodging them." > > They basically made the entire spec around evasion, and deception. Taking action while dodging fits especially since clones also have the ability to gain mirage cloak.- > > If the ability to do actions while dodging was removed, you would indeed need to do something else with the espec. > > Personally, building an espec around gimmick evasion in this game especially since we JUST came from an episode of perma evade thieves and the cries about them screams poor judgement, and lack of communal knowledge. > > But this isn't an esports game, PvP is the lowest denominator, and you will most likely never see mirage cloak gutted or removed, because of that fact. > > > > > > > Anything else should not be usable during a mirage cloak, because then they have too much time of non-interruptable activations. > > > > > This is interesting because would that mean you cant break stun or use and instant skill while dodgeing, because I can thing of a couple of classes that can pop skills mid dodge ( specifically thief comes to mind) > > > > > > > No matter how you look at it there's too much visual spam. Well, you can't look at it at all, because all the phantasms all over the place covering everything. Regardless of how powerful or weak they are, they are too much clutter. Clutter has to go. > > Visual clutter is mostly an engine problem, as some people still have the images of shattered clones persist on the screen instead of dissappearing. If you cant tell the difference between a phantasm and clone you need to do something more than complain.. Clones can be killed in two AA's if you are power anything, OR one well placed AoE which EVERY class has access to. > > If your arguement then becomes..But they make more clones. > > YEs....That is the CLASS MECHANIC of mesmer, and AA doesn't have a CD > > > > All that says is exactly what I said. Dodges are replaced with mirage cloak to "baffle enemies", and yes, it says mirages get a lot of extra evading, but it doesn't say they are supposed to be able to use any and all of their skills while evading. What that says comes down to "Mirages are harder to tell apart from clones and can evade more frequently". > > It doesn't say they are entitled to use all their skills while evading to almost completely ignore interruptions, since the only thing that can touch them while evading is wards like Static Field, Ring of Warding and Spectral Wall, which you can't really expect everyone to bring along, and which are realy easily avoidable, since all you have to do to avoid them is not walk, and mirage cloak pretty obviously an evade you use without walking at all. > > And you WOULD be able to break stun. Because most stun breaks do not have an activation time or aftercast, so they can be used during a dodge, and anything that can't be used during a dodge gets queued so it starts at the end of the dodge. In fact, the only mesmer stun break I remember that has an activation time is a Chornomancer well, so that doesn't concern the mirage. > Daredevil also replaced their dodges with separate skills, yet they are still able to use anything that can be used during a dodge, and still unable to use anything else, but it gets queued normally. So it's not like the default dodge is so unique. Whatever it can do it can be replicated and altered. > I specifically indicated that anything that can be used during a normal dodge should be usable during a mirage cloak normally: > > * Things that should stay usable during mirage cloak: > * Anything the core mesmer can already use during an evade, like skills with no activation time such as shatters. > * Anything specific to the mirage: Ambushes, Deceptions and Mirage Axe skills. > * Not usable during cloak, but gets queued until the end of the cloak like when using them during a dodge: > * Anything else. > It says nothing about hiding among clones it's literally only referencing mirrors. You're reaching. Mirage Cloak is supposed to be an upgrade to the standard dodge, hence the skill usage during such. If a Mirage decides they want to cover a different skill using Mirage Cloak why do you get to punish them for not using an Ambush? What makes you so entitled to interrupt that skill? Phantasm 'clutter' doesn't need to be balanced around your inability to take in information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > > > Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak. > > > > > > Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go. > > > > > > > > > > Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away. > > > > > > > > > > At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec. > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > The main gimmick of the spec is looking more like a clone and being harder to tell apart from them. > > > > > > > > > > That's actually incorrect, or half incorrect. > > > Taken specifically from the Developer Showcase August 1 2017 And I quote > > > "Their deception skills baffle enemies and create fragile constructs that shatter when touched creating mirage cloaks to avoid enemy attacks instead of dodging them." > > > They basically made the entire spec around evasion, and deception. Taking action while dodging fits especially since clones also have the ability to gain mirage cloak.- > > > If the ability to do actions while dodging was removed, you would indeed need to do something else with the espec. > > > Personally, building an espec around gimmick evasion in this game especially since we JUST came from an episode of perma evade thieves and the cries about them screams poor judgement, and lack of communal knowledge. > > > But this isn't an esports game, PvP is the lowest denominator, and you will most likely never see mirage cloak gutted or removed, because of that fact. > > > > > > > > > > Anything else should not be usable during a mirage cloak, because then they have too much time of non-interruptable activations. > > > > > > > This is interesting because would that mean you cant break stun or use and instant skill while dodgeing, because I can thing of a couple of classes that can pop skills mid dodge ( specifically thief comes to mind) > > > > > > > > > > No matter how you look at it there's too much visual spam. Well, you can't look at it at all, because all the phantasms all over the place covering everything. Regardless of how powerful or weak they are, they are too much clutter. Clutter has to go. > > > Visual clutter is mostly an engine problem, as some people still have the images of shattered clones persist on the screen instead of dissappearing. If you cant tell the difference between a phantasm and clone you need to do something more than complain.. Clones can be killed in two AA's if you are power anything, OR one well placed AoE which EVERY class has access to. > > > If your arguement then becomes..But they make more clones. > > > YEs....That is the CLASS MECHANIC of mesmer, and AA doesn't have a CD > > > > > > > All that says is exactly what I said. Dodges are replaced with mirage cloak to "baffle enemies", and yes, it says mirages get a lot of extra evading, but it doesn't say they are supposed to be able to use any and all of their skills while evading. What that says comes down to "Mirages are harder to tell apart from clones and can evade more frequently". > > > > It doesn't say they are entitled to use all their skills while evading to almost completely ignore interruptions, since the only thing that can touch them while evading is wards like Static Field, Ring of Warding and Spectral Wall, which you can't really expect everyone to bring along, and which are realy easily avoidable, since all you have to do to avoid them is not walk, and mirage cloak pretty obviously an evade you use without walking at all. > > > > And you WOULD be able to break stun. Because most stun breaks do not have an activation time or aftercast, so they can be used during a dodge, and anything that can't be used during a dodge gets queued so it starts at the end of the dodge. In fact, the only mesmer stun break I remember that has an activation time is a Chornomancer well, so that doesn't concern the mirage. > > Daredevil also replaced their dodges with separate skills, yet they are still able to use anything that can be used during a dodge, and still unable to use anything else, but it gets queued normally. So it's not like the default dodge is so unique. Whatever it can do it can be replicated and altered. > > I specifically indicated that anything that can be used during a normal dodge should be usable during a mirage cloak normally: > > > > * Things that should stay usable during mirage cloak: > > * Anything the core mesmer can already use during an evade, like skills with no activation time such as shatters. > > * Anything specific to the mirage: Ambushes, Deceptions and Mirage Axe skills. > > * Not usable during cloak, but gets queued until the end of the cloak like when using them during a dodge: > > * Anything else. > > > > It says nothing about hiding among clones it's literally only referencing mirrors. You're reaching. Mirage Cloak is supposed to be an upgrade to the standard dodge, hence the skill usage during such. If a Mirage decides they want to cover a different skill using Mirage Cloak why do you get to punish them for not using an Ambush? What makes you so entitled to interrupt that skill? > > Phantasm 'clutter' doesn't need to be balanced around your inability to take in information. You say I'm reaching, I say you are grasping straws dancing around the issue. Elite specializations done right won't merely upgrade the core profession, they will change the profession and its playstyle. Some things about them will be upgrades, but any elite specialization done right will have tradeoffs or downsides in those changes too, like how necromancers have their death shroud skills changed, or how spellbreakers lose the 3rd stage of adrenaline, or how weaver becomes slower at switching between full attunements, or how deadeye has its stolen skills replaced with spells. But even if mirage cloak was fixed the way I wanted, it would still be an 'upgrade' as you say, since it still lasts longer than the default dodge, and it still makes it harder to see which one is the mesmer, and still brings extra skills with ambushes. Which only shows core mesmer needs to get something mirage loses, like a 5th shatter skill only core has. The current problem with mirages isn't the conditions they can bring, they are mostly torment and confusion, which can be easily countered with a change in behavior. The problem is how they can keep spamming stuff with little fear of ever being interrupted. Phantams 'clutter' doesn't need to be balanced. It needs to be removed. There's no way to balance something that shouln't exist at all. It doesn't matter what's the original intention of a mechanic if it just doesn't work or it is bad for the game. The current iteration of phantasms completely changed how they worked, but it had to be done. Now they can't be used as permanent AI, but that also removed forcing people to choose between two mechanics that were meant to exist alongside each other. If something has to go and there's no way around it, it has to go. But the change also removed the cap they needed to have, that all summoned AI needs to have. AI clutter always has to go. There's no way to address than other than reducing their numbers. It is why necromancers can't summon as many minions as in GW1 at the same time, why rangers lost the ability to walk around with spirits and why phantasms need a cap. Phantasms may no longer last indefinitely but they can still be spammed way too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > > > > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > > > > > Mirage needs to stop being able to use so many things during a mirage cloak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ambush skills, Deceptions, and any of the skills that can already be used during a normal dodge roll are perfectly ok, those should remain usable during a mriage cloak. > > > > > > > Anything else is not ok. The main mesmer tool to avoid being interrupted is Distortion, and it does a wonderful job at doing that. Mirage Cloak should not give them extra uninterruptible uptime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer as a whole needs a cap for phantasms. Removing them from the illusion cap was good, clones and phantasm needed to be separate so people did not had to choose between shatter and maintaining phantasms. But the split should have come with phantasms getting their own separate cap. Not because of phantasm power, but because of visual clutter. They can spam too much stuff on screen. They need to be slowed down. Phantasm power can later be improved if it's too low after getting their own cap, but the spam and visual noise has to go. > > > > > > > > > > > > Being able to do things while dodging is the whole gimmick of the spec, give us a new gimmick or do something to our main one (shatters) if you're going to take it away. > > > > > > > > > > > > At least you understand why the phantasm rework was done, but phantasms don't need their own separate cap because of one overperforming trait+skill combination on one elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > The main gimmick of the spec is looking more like a clone and being harder to tell apart from them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's actually incorrect, or half incorrect. > > > > Taken specifically from the Developer Showcase August 1 2017 And I quote > > > > "Their deception skills baffle enemies and create fragile constructs that shatter when touched creating mirage cloaks to avoid enemy attacks instead of dodging them." > > > > They basically made the entire spec around evasion, and deception. Taking action while dodging fits especially since clones also have the ability to gain mirage cloak.- > > > > If the ability to do actions while dodging was removed, you would indeed need to do something else with the espec. > > > > Personally, building an espec around gimmick evasion in this game especially since we JUST came from an episode of perma evade thieves and the cries about them screams poor judgement, and lack of communal knowledge. > > > > But this isn't an esports game, PvP is the lowest denominator, and you will most likely never see mirage cloak gutted or removed, because of that fact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anything else should not be usable during a mirage cloak, because then they have too much time of non-interruptable activations. > > > > > > > > > This is interesting because would that mean you cant break stun or use and instant skill while dodgeing, because I can thing of a couple of classes that can pop skills mid dodge ( specifically thief comes to mind) > > > > > > > > > > > > > No matter how you look at it there's too much visual spam. Well, you can't look at it at all, because all the phantasms all over the place covering everything. Regardless of how powerful or weak they are, they are too much clutter. Clutter has to go. > > > > Visual clutter is mostly an engine problem, as some people still have the images of shattered clones persist on the screen instead of dissappearing. If you cant tell the difference between a phantasm and clone you need to do something more than complain.. Clones can be killed in two AA's if you are power anything, OR one well placed AoE which EVERY class has access to. > > > > If your arguement then becomes..But they make more clones. > > > > YEs....That is the CLASS MECHANIC of mesmer, and AA doesn't have a CD > > > > > > > > > > All that says is exactly what I said. Dodges are replaced with mirage cloak to "baffle enemies", and yes, it says mirages get a lot of extra evading, but it doesn't say they are supposed to be able to use any and all of their skills while evading. What that says comes down to "Mirages are harder to tell apart from clones and can evade more frequently". > > > > > > It doesn't say they are entitled to use all their skills while evading to almost completely ignore interruptions, since the only thing that can touch them while evading is wards like Static Field, Ring of Warding and Spectral Wall, which you can't really expect everyone to bring along, and which are realy easily avoidable, since all you have to do to avoid them is not walk, and mirage cloak pretty obviously an evade you use without walking at all. > > > > > > And you WOULD be able to break stun. Because most stun breaks do not have an activation time or aftercast, so they can be used during a dodge, and anything that can't be used during a dodge gets queued so it starts at the end of the dodge. In fact, the only mesmer stun break I remember that has an activation time is a Chornomancer well, so that doesn't concern the mirage. > > > Daredevil also replaced their dodges with separate skills, yet they are still able to use anything that can be used during a dodge, and still unable to use anything else, but it gets queued normally. So it's not like the default dodge is so unique. Whatever it can do it can be replicated and altered. > > > I specifically indicated that anything that can be used during a normal dodge should be usable during a mirage cloak normally: > > > > > > * Things that should stay usable during mirage cloak: > > > * Anything the core mesmer can already use during an evade, like skills with no activation time such as shatters. > > > * Anything specific to the mirage: Ambushes, Deceptions and Mirage Axe skills. > > > * Not usable during cloak, but gets queued until the end of the cloak like when using them during a dodge: > > > * Anything else. > > > > > > > It says nothing about hiding among clones it's literally only referencing mirrors. You're reaching. Mirage Cloak is supposed to be an upgrade to the standard dodge, hence the skill usage during such. If a Mirage decides they want to cover a different skill using Mirage Cloak why do you get to punish them for not using an Ambush? What makes you so entitled to interrupt that skill? > > > > Phantasm 'clutter' doesn't need to be balanced around your inability to take in information. > > You say I'm reaching, I say you are grasping straws dancing around the issue. > > Elite specializations done right won't merely upgrade the core profession, they will change the profession and its playstyle. Some things about them will be upgrades, but any elite specialization done right will have tradeoffs or downsides in those changes too, like how necromancers have their death shroud skills changed, or how spellbreakers lose the 3rd stage of adrenaline, or how weaver becomes slower at switching between full attunements, or how deadeye has its stolen skills replaced with spells. > Who are you to say if an elite specialization is done right? Mesmers have had two elite specializations with neither really changing the playstyle. Continuum split just encouraged the use of the most powerful skills within a 6 second window and Mirage Cloak enables a tactical decision between whether or not to cover an important skill with a dodge or to use the Ambush skill it gives. Necromancers having their shroud skill changed is not a downside or a tradeoff aside from Scourge. Berserker, Tempest, Holosmith, Reaper, Druid, Scrapper, Herald, Renegade, Daredevil, and Chronomancer all have no tradeoff or downside. So are you going to propose changes to all of those too? > But even if mirage cloak was fixed the way I wanted, it would still be an 'upgrade' as you say, since it still lasts longer than the default dodge, and it still makes it harder to see which one is the mesmer, and still brings extra skills with ambushes. Which only shows core mesmer needs to get something mirage loses, like a 5th shatter skill only core has. > > The current problem with mirages isn't the conditions they can bring, they are mostly torment and confusion, which can be easily countered with a change in behavior. The problem is how they can keep spamming stuff with little fear of ever being interrupted. > It only makes it more difficult to see which Mesmer is real if you have Infinite Horizon otherwise the giant purple glow gives you away immediately. For your next sentence, I'll refer you again to all the listed specializations where you only gain things and have no trade off or downside. The current problem with mirages is that they are nigh impossible to lock down and punish, the huge synergy between Blinding Dissipation & Ineptitude which makes punishing them even more difficult since counterpressure is nullified even more, and the synergy between Sigils of Energy and Runes of the Adventurer. 'Spamming stuff' is something only thief really has the ability to do. Otherwise the only useful spammable skills on Mirage are Ambushes which you lose if you decide to cover another skill using Mirage Cloak. > > Phantams 'clutter' doesn't need to be balanced. It needs to be removed. There's no way to balance something that shouln't exist at all. > It doesn't matter what's the original intention of a mechanic if it just doesn't work or it is bad for the game. The current iteration of phantasms completely changed how they worked, but it had to be done. Now they can't be used as permanent AI, but that also removed forcing people to choose between two mechanics that were meant to exist alongside each other. If something has to go and there's no way around it, it has to go. > But the change also removed the cap they needed to have, that all summoned AI needs to have. > AI clutter always has to go. There's no way to address than other than reducing their numbers. It is why necromancers can't summon as many minions as in GW1 at the same time, why rangers lost the ability to walk around with spirits and why phantasms need a cap. Phantasms may no longer last indefinitely but they can still be spammed way too much. Again, who are you to say as much? The intention is for clones and phantasms to be deceiving, Chronophantasma+Signet of the Ether obviously making that overperforming but again, ANet has already addressed that in the way they saw fit. The only reason the cap on illusions existed was to keep a maximum power balance around having 3 phantasms up, which plagued the rest of the class' skills because they were continually being balanced around that factor. Now phantasms are just any other powerful cooldown just with a fancy delivery package that's more a detriment than a help since you get multiple chances to negate the same attack, either through interruption, dodge, or any other active mitigation tool. 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Daishi.6027 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 @MithranArkanere.8957 You are aware during the PoF previews devs made it fairly clear it was intended for mirages to dodge during actions. Besides, unless there was a target drop or a shuffle similar to illusionary ambush; just having a low animation dodge "baffles" no one except for how useless it is on it's own. Plus regardless of the .25 dodge duration increase it doesn't have much, if any more access to dodge than any other class with vigor. The only skills that you would interrupt on a mirage apart from auto attacks are phantasms, heal, maybe pistol 5 and maybe scepter 3, everything else is instant or inconsequential (shatters, mantra, phase retreat, chaos armor, portal). AI summon is arguably a problem, but it's also a mechanic that can be played around fairly simply. It's damage you can literally cleave and kite. As for upgrading core professions, Core Mesmer needed quite a few baseline fixes to perform as **consistently** well as other classes in any extended fight, it is the most poorly implemented core class, replaceable in every meta if not for portal (and maybe moa), and it's only use was a one shot gimmick burst that leaves them with nothing and was the easiest to read and avoid burst in the game. The core mechanics fight each other less after the phant rework, but every elite spec gives it the frequency in one way or another that allows it to be on par consistently with everything else. It is easy to go on about "elite specs being side grades" when things like thief, guard, and war all work out of the box, or when you can still live on point as ele, ranger, and engie. Mesmer never had that luxury, so sorry that elite specs fix it and don't keep it as bad as before. Your assertion that it's imbalance is more than just condi damage is wrong, you may not like the illusion mechanics, you may find it un-fun to fight. However these are subjective points of view, when mechanically what miarge has access to compared to the rest of the cast is fair outside the number of condis and cover condis it can produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Heck nerf them both and watch the celebration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Condi isn't the problem. Mesmer as a whole is. But Mesmers have historically been the most overtuned profession so excuse me when i say, they wont nerf them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Oh, right. Mirage is overperforming so much that we need to: Make them waste a full second on every dodge wherein they can't perform any actions as well as nerfing their condi application? So basically, let's make sure condi mirage has no offense, no defense, no mitigation outside of a lengthy cooldown, and no healing. Oh, and nerf clones and phantasms, too because I need to be able to find this free kill on the field immediately, kthx! I think you guys have gotten hit in the head by too many mesmers, honestly. They aren't THAT broken. They just need some reasonable changes, not gutting the entire class concept. And you say the devs are bad at this! Sheesh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 yes, lets destroy the thing they just made usable and by that i mean conditions. No thank you. My ranger can actually take part in raids and fractals due to condis(sure its limited but still). Unless they split condi damage in PVP off from the rest of the game, i dont want to see it ruined when it finally is in a decent place in the rest of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avador.8934 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Just rework / get rid of Elusive Mind... Mirage should see a nerf to its evasive capabilities. And condis are okay. It's just that some specs that use them are a bit op, mostly because they can spam it in extreme amounts in a very short time. Nerfing condis in general is a bad idea. Nerf their insane application instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanity Obscure.6054 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Am I the only one that thinks Mesmers (both Mirage and Chrono) are easy? I never really understood the complaint. Mes is one of my lesser played classes along with Ranger, but I feel people just need to research their opponent or play them a little to understand where to strike and where their gameplay allows them to kite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson.2403 Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 > @"Sanity Obscure.6054" said: > Am I the only one that thinks Mesmers (both Mirage and Chrono) are easy? I never really understood the complaint. > > Mes is one of my lesser played classes along with Ranger, but I feel people just need to research their opponent or play them a little to understand where to strike and where their gameplay allows them to kite. Obviously you have been fighting against noob mesmers then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanity Obscure.6054 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 > @"Sampson.2403" said > > Obviously you have been fighting against noob mesmers then I play around the Plat 1 and 2 mark if it's relevant. But I thought the argument was that inexperienced players were able to milk the current class mechanics? I don't see that however. Inexperienced mesmers are pretty easy to spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 People jump on mesmer for having to much evade when it boils down to 2 mirage cloaks, blurred frenzy, and distortion. Compare that to what access thief and ranger have for evades, then remember that both can **reliably** pressure through walls or sustain in different ways. I don't think people falling for visual noise with less evades than the access compared other builds is grounds for nerfs when most of mesmers damage is fair, it comes from 2 sources that are easy to avoid with some build up (outside of one combo, which if you can avoid a DP thief you can avoid a mirror blade shatter). Yes Condi can pump out those attacks more and that is a valid point which should be reduced, but I also make the same argument for like condi thief which has even more ease of application than even condi mirage with more doge. For power there really should be no issue of balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadCrowned.6834 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Mirage itself needs nerf. Most other classes need to give up a lot in order to do some reasonable condi damage. Mirage doesn't. Besides, the frequency with which they can apply condi bursts is just.... yeah ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abazigal.3679 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 When you cannot change the gift, you should change the package. Let's face it, the point with condis would be to nerf all PoF elites, but this cannot be done. So, we should get a better leaderboard where everyone is on a deserved spot. That is done with : - Removing seasons : you get a big long term leaderboard and you don't have to deal with the same issues every 2 months. - Implementing swiss rounds AT's contributing to rating : you win in AT against a similar rated team, you earn 40 points. You win against better team, you earn 60-80 This will help competitiveness and make frustrating matchs occur less. But i was already arguing about this few years ago, so i doubt this will change.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson.2403 Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 > @"Sanity Obscure.6054" said: > > @"Sampson.2403" said > > > > Obviously you have been fighting against noob mesmers then > > I play around the Plat 1 and 2 mark if it's relevant. But I thought the argument was that inexperienced players were able to milk the current class mechanics? > > I don't see that however. Inexperienced mesmers are pretty easy to spot. I dunno man im plat 2 as well, i main mirage (not condi) and the only class i struggle against consistently is condi mirage. Do you play guardian or thief or something? This isn't a matter of knowing how a class works to beat it. I know everytning a condi is doing while they're doing it. The problem is they have too much and theres little room for countering it in a 1v1 let alone spvp territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > @"Sanity Obscure.6054" said: > > > @"Sampson.2403" said > > > > > > Obviously you have been fighting against noob mesmers then > > > > I play around the Plat 1 and 2 mark if it's relevant. But I thought the argument was that inexperienced players were able to milk the current class mechanics? > > > > I don't see that however. Inexperienced mesmers are pretty easy to spot. > > I dunno man im plat 2 as well, i main mirage (not condi) and the only class i struggle against consistently is condi mirage. Do you play guardian or thief or something? > > This isn't a matter of knowing how a class works to beat it. I know everytning a condi is doing while they're doing it. The problem is they have too much and theres little room for countering it in a 1v1 let alone spvp territory. If mirage is stronger than every other spec, and you still struggle against other mirages, how do you think other classes fare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson.2403 Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Sampson.2403" said: > > > @"Sanity Obscure.6054" said: > > > > @"Sampson.2403" said > > > > > > > > Obviously you have been fighting against noob mesmers then > > > > > > I play around the Plat 1 and 2 mark if it's relevant. But I thought the argument was that inexperienced players were able to milk the current class mechanics? > > > > > > I don't see that however. Inexperienced mesmers are pretty easy to spot. > > > > I dunno man im plat 2 as well, i main mirage (not condi) and the only class i struggle against consistently is condi mirage. Do you play guardian or thief or something? > > > > This isn't a matter of knowing how a class works to beat it. I know everytning a condi is doing while they're doing it. The problem is they have too much and theres little room for countering it in a 1v1 let alone spvp territory. > > If mirage is stronger than every other spec, and you still struggle against other mirages, how do you think other classes fare? Yep. Im not disagreeing with you. The dude i was quoting is the one saying mirage is easy to beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilninja.8976 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Mirage power builds can still almost instantly kill a 23k hp ranger in one combo. Literally die in 1 second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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