Request: Make the game more challenging

[Linken.6345]

> @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > * Encourage people to actually group up, this is the least social MMO I've seen.

>

> I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said, but this point... it doesn't actively encourage grouping, but it does actively encourage large numbers of players to actively help other players. It does this by offering zero penalties and only benefits to helping someone else out. Just because you don't have to do it in a party doesn't mean it's not social. You can constantly find people just sitting in low level starter areas in this MMO just WAITING to help other newer players, offering advice in map and say, and just generally being welcoming. You rarely see this to the same extent in other MMOs, how is it **not** social?

 

Am I the only one that get reminded by the guy coming to the forum and complaining that people kept engaging the champions he wanted to solo in open world to test builds.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> + HOT: The "nerfs" consisted of a few changes to Champion attacks that were producing one-hit kills with little to no warning, and a reduction of mob density on several routes that ANet saw were most utilized. No changes were announced to mob capabilities other than those to Champions.

 

That's not entirely true either. Having played HoT both pre and post nerf, there have been a number of reductions to places that required certain higher tiered masteries (mostly the itzel poison training, but I'm sure there were others), there were changes to a number of hero point challenges to make them solo friendly or even just channels, adventures received some hefty nerfs, at least one story instance had the itzel poison training requirement removed since it was so high up the itzel mastery tree, and I think Hearts and Minds, the final story instance, also received some nerfs too. I also really do feel like regular mobs don't hit as hard as they used to, but it's not something I can confirm. Pocket raptors should drown in lava though.

 

That's a pretty substantial list of nerfs, and those are the ones I can list off the top of my head.

 

> + PoF: PoF mobs are on average no less likely to kill the unwary or unskilled than HoT mobs. It's as possible to over-aggro in PoF as it is in HoT, maybe even more so as PoF mobs seem to aggro from further away, perhaps because of mounts. PoF maps are easier primarily because they are much easier to navigate. Another difference is that there are a couple of mobs in HoT that can kill the unwary with power damage (Snipers and Shadowleapers) and these mobs have only one counterpart in PoF (Forged Forerunner). Those two mob types from HoT also have "glass cannon" health and armor, and are easily disposed of once you know their tricks. PoF mobs in general rely more on condition damage than power damage. The dangerous ones, like Awakened Canids and Abominations, also come only as Veterans (or up?).

 

I disagree with this as well. The average HoT enemy hits harder than the average PoF, HoT had an unreasonable number of mobs who were veteran and/or elite, compared to the fewer in number veteran mobs who are more spread out in PoF, and very few elites, if any. PoF mobs do have a much larger aggro radius due to the inclusion of mounts, so you're right that you could pull a larger number of mobs by accident, and the average PoF accidental pull can rival or even exceed the average HoT accidental pull in terms of incoming damage and survivability. But on an individual mob by mob basis, there's a difference, if a small one, in terms of damage output.

 

I do also think that HoT very much emphasized the "survive at all costs" approach, which leads to I think a number of places where enemies can spawn from nowhere or use invisibility (the latter thankfully countered by a Nuhoch mastery). There were more perilous places included in HoT compared to PoF, but again, PoF was designed with mounts so enemies are more spread out, but have a larger aggro radius, where HoT was condensed with not a lot of places to escape if you were flanked or outgunned by enemies, leading to what you said about PoF maps being easier to navigate.

[Haishao.6851]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > * Encourage people to actually group up, this is the least social MMO I've seen.

> >

> > I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said, but this point... it doesn't actively encourage grouping, but it does actively encourage large numbers of players to actively help other players. It does this by offering zero penalties and only benefits to helping someone else out. Just because you don't have to do it in a party doesn't mean it's not social. You can constantly find people just sitting in low level starter areas in this MMO just WAITING to help other newer players, offering advice in map and say, and just generally being welcoming. You rarely see this to the same extent in other MMOs, how is it **not** social?

>

> Am I the only one that get reminded by the guy coming to the forum and complaining that people kept engaging the champions he wanted to solo in open world to test builds.

 

I remember someone who wanted to solo the brood mother in Malchor's Leap and people kept coming in and ruin it.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Endless Soul.5178" said:

> > @"Stoneheart.6547" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > Look at Heart of Thorns at release, the devs listened far too much to the vocal minority that demanded harder content. It proving to be super difficult for the casuals to deal with. Only now after significant nerfs to HoT, the difficulty increase is much better.

> > >

> > > Though Path of Fire is paced much better, having more room to maneuver in. As well getting rid of the multilayered mess of the hot maps that added to the confusion and turned off many players.

> > >

> > > So no, GW2 do not need higher difficulty. Thats what challenge motes is for in fractals.

> >

> > I was talking about the base game, not expansions. **I think the base game could be modified a little to increase the challenging content for everyone**, not only for players who have bought the expansions, and also, I was talking about the difficulty from the start, not at the endgame. It doesn't need to be impossible to solo, all basic content could be soloable but more challenging, like old school MMORPG's.

>

> Not everyone wants that though.

 

Unfortunately, the OP is correct ... even the most scrub level can go blindfolded through core tyria. I'm not sure it's about what everyone wants because nothing in this game is about pleasing everyone.

 

The problem isn't that core is too easy, it's that the transition from Core to anything else is way too big. Even going into Dry Top from Core is a big jump in difficulty for some people. Anet did not give players a proper level of transition from core to anything else. The game would be better off if they fixed that. at least all the Orr zones should be more difficult, so people have some expectation of the minimum level of difficulty they can expect in all the other endgame zones.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

This game is long gone in the carebear territory. There is no going back. That's why no matter what you do, its time gated and laughably rewarding. And that is exactly how you DON'T do pve in an mmo.

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > * Encourage people to actually group up, this is the least social MMO I've seen.

>

> I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said, but this point... it doesn't actively encourage grouping, but it does actively encourage large numbers of players to actively help other players. It does this by offering zero penalties and only benefits to helping someone else out. Just because you don't have to do it in a party doesn't mean it's not social. You can constantly find people just sitting in low level starter areas in this MMO just WAITING to help other newer players, offering advice in map and say, and just generally being welcoming. You rarely see this to the same extent in other MMOs, how is it **not** social?

 

Hmm, I should probably have used another word than "social".

 

Basically: The "zerg grouping" doesn't teach/make players communicate and coordinate, and lets them ignore most mechanics and improving their own game play. And having "some" (no, not all, not even most) content in Open World that encouraged/required this could possibly guide more players to use and get used to grouping.

 

Side note, I actually take that back, BDO was even less social.

[STIHL.2489]

Tome Your alts have your friends buy the expansion and use the level 8o boost, no one with the skill to chew though this game and seek challenge wants to waste time leveling toons.

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > * Encourage people to actually group up, this is the least social MMO I've seen.

> >

> > I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said, but this point... it doesn't actively encourage grouping, but it does actively encourage large numbers of players to actively help other players. It does this by offering zero penalties and only benefits to helping someone else out. Just because you don't have to do it in a party doesn't mean it's not social. You can constantly find people just sitting in low level starter areas in this MMO just WAITING to help other newer players, offering advice in map and say, and just generally being welcoming. You rarely see this to the same extent in other MMOs, how is it **not** social?

>

> Am I the only one that get reminded by the guy coming to the forum and complaining that people kept engaging the champions he wanted to solo in open world to test builds.

 

Heh, I find the better way to test builds is to go somewhere no one really wants to be. I find it much more telling of a build if I can drop just below the Temple of Kormir in Crystal Oasis and solo four or five hydras simultaneously, because that place is a mess and with that many of them in such a small area a) no one else wants to be there fighting either and b) it can be harder than most core game and a lot of HoT champs.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> This game is long gone in the carebear territory. There is no going back. That's why no matter what you do, its time gated and laughably rewarding. And that is exactly how you DON'T do pve in an mmo.

 

I disagree. GW2 has the best open world play of any MMO I've tried by far. I would agree that Core Tyria is pretty lame, but the expansions and especially HoT are pretty awesome. I don't see what's so "carebear" about it. Open world in a lot of other MMOs is just a joke, used for leveling and then largely ignored in favor of instanced PvE.

[Sarrs.4831]

I think it would be neat if you could optionally scale yourself down just a little, like to level 77 at most, to make the game harder for you and make your rewards better. I don't know how this wouldn't fall into the MF leech problem though since it's basically the same thing. I like the idea of finding an organic and rewarding way to make the game harder, though.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > This game is long gone in the carebear territory. There is no going back. That's why no matter what you do, its time gated and laughably rewarding. And that is exactly how you DON'T do pve in an mmo.

>

> I disagree. GW2 has the best open world play of any MMO I've tried by far. I would agree that Core Tyria is pretty lame, but the expansions and especially HoT are pretty awesome. I don't see what's so "carebear" about it. Open world in a lot of other MMOs is just a joke, used for leveling and then largely ignored in favor of instanced PvE.

 

Other games have endgame content which keep you busy. GW2 has nothing else but open world with no challenge nor reward. Dungeons are long abandoned and they were never good to begin with (they were fun for the first month of the game release...). Fractals are outdated, repetitive and unrewarding. Raids are fun for the first 5 times, then they become an easy faceroll unless you're playing with people that have never done them. And reward, lol reward from what is supposed to be the hardest content in the game. Random dungeons from gw1 had better rewards than what's from gw2 raids, and they weren't time gated either. The whole on pve of gw2 is a mess in my opinion. A mess that cannot be fixed at this point.

[Knighthonor.4061]

I really just want more new Legendary Meta Events on the timer to juggle with Teq and Triple Wurm. I like them. I don't want more all around difficulty. I do want some more Mini Dungeons that are not Soloable in open world. Meta events are the real gem of this game. Twisted Merinett or whatever it's called was a great event that was removed and never returned. We need more layered Meta Events like Jormag or Teq

[Brother.1504]

The game has far too much visual effects clutter to make any more difficult. In a group half the time you can barely see the enemy models let alone abilities.

[Tapri.1372]

Imo, if they added some single player challenge mode stuff (such as world of warcraft's mage tower in 7.2, the ptsd of the tanks challenge @.@) that rewarded you with class/profession specific rewards, that kind of content I would definifely be okay with.

 

For those who dont know what the mage tower is, there is 4 or 5 different instances that each spec has specific access to, tanks have access to tank specific challenge, healers have their own specific challenge, and there are 2 or 3 different dps challenges that different specs can do. Upon completion you got a weapon skin unlock for it (in feral amd guardian druid they get animal skins).

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

>Twisted Merinett or whatever it's called was a great event that was removed and never returned.

It returned as the Vinewrath, minus all the badly-designed parts that made it constantly fail.

[battledrone.8315]

considering the time and resources they have spent on nerfing , im guessing they wont do that

orr got nerfed 2 or 3 times, and its still crap

[maddoctor.2738]

The main "problem" with the current difficulty is the major jump between core game and the expansions, especially for those that weren't there for the living world season 1 and 2. The core game is really easy, even at the highest level zones, which makes it a very poor training exercise for the expansions and those that did not play the seasons find the expansions really hard. The easiest way to "fix" this imo is to bundle Season 2 with expansion purchase, and not require an extra sale on the gem store for it. Season 2 is good "training" for the expansions especially now that there are no gigantic blobs roaming around.

 

> @"juhani.5361" said:

> > @"Sarrs.4831" said:

> > I think it would be neat if you could optionally scale yourself down just a little, like to level 77 at most, to make the game harder for you and make your rewards better. I don't know how this wouldn't fall into the MF leech problem though since it's basically the same thing. I like the idea of finding an organic and rewarding way to make the game harder, though.

>

> A voluntary stat debuff would be the ideal solution. Major thumbs up! That might make everyone happy.

 

Since leeching in this game is really easy this wouldn't work, however if they applied this only to instances, like the story instances of Season 2 for example, that would work well.

[Mea.5491]

No thank you. After a stressful day at work, I just want to relax and do easy stuff in my video game for a change. If I want challenge, I log off and play real life.

 

We have high lvl fractals and raids for challenging content, that's enough. Also, many people complain about some story missions being too hard so the game is already challenging enough for some of us.

[Donutdude.9582]

> @"Stoneheart.6547" said:

> Hi. This is something I've been wanting for a long time:

> I'd love it if GW2 were a little bit more difficult. I mean, make all PvE monsters a bit more difficult and increase their respective exp to reflect that change , to make every 1vs1 battle against monsters more fun and challenging and encourage parties to be formed since level 1 or maybe upper levels. There would be some people who'd rather playing alone, because it's also fun, but that'd be a personal challenge.

>

> Another change I'd suggest is for players to feel more ecouraged not to let themselves to get killed. I mean, make death a little bit punishable. That can be achieved by reducing stats per broken armor part or charging a bit of gold on armor repair or a mix of both.

>

> And finally, I'd love it if increasing a crafting skill were more rewarding. Maybe if you could sell ascended gear you make, or being able to sell more of your work. I love it when I can make myself some profit only from crafting (*Feels like a businessman*).

>

> How can I make these ideas reach ANet's dev's? Would you like these changes to be made?

 

I disagree with every, single aspect of this post. I shall explain why:

 

1. _More challenging content:_ This exists already in the form of fractals and raids. Open world content must cater to everyone, not the minority.

2. _Death punishment:_ Repair costs were removed from the game quite some time ago, which was for the better. Paying for armour repair is an unnecessary, archaic system. Furthermore, ArenaNet specifically stated that they did not want to make death feel punishable. This lesson was learned from their original game and is the reason why death penalty does not exist here.

3. _Crafting for gold:_ I detest this one the most. I have always hated crafting for gold in MMORPGs as it always results in the minority selling top-tier equipment for massively over-inflated prices that are simply not possible to purchase for a lot of the playerbase. You only need to look at the prices for some of the crafted weapons to see this in action (legendary weapons + weapons like Mjolnir etc).

 

My opinions are strong and relatively harsh but they come from a background of hatred towards each of them and not with you personally.

[LucianDK.8615]

those weapons you mentioned, cosmectic only and farmable if you are patient. Let mats build up over time. Max damage weapons are easilly achieveable.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Donutdude.9582" said:

> Open world content must cater to everyone, not the minority.

 

I think we can all agree that there is a vast difference between the difficulty of the core game and the expansions in the open world, with nothing in-between them to bridge the gap.

[joneirikb.7506]

Regarding self-down scale as a mechanic to create harder content:

 

The first thing that strikes this out, is that you can already do this by yourself, jsut removing some gear, or replacing gear with lower quality gear (blue/green etc). So there isn't much reason to do this.

 

The second thing is how open world works, you could still zerg around and ride the other players/zerg's efforts. There are people that start new character, and goes into HOT at level 2, and level up only inside HOT, doing just this.

 

(On the other hand, if they set every single map to -10 levels on the level scaling it might actually become hard, but would also encourage the average player to only stack zergs for everything)

 

---

 

Regarding the whole "they're making gw2 hardcore":

 

ANet traditionally leans more toward hardcore than casual (GW1), and even under the design and creation of GW2. The entire game was balanced around PVP the first 3 years (Until HOT came and messed that up), and the entire combat system in this game encourages players to improve and 'get good'. Which is why it always baffles me why people keep on about GW2 being "made for casual".

 

If they hadn't made Core Tyria face-roll easy at launch, this game would never have been considered casual at all.

 

They have compromised a good deal over the years, and I don't think that is a bad thing. I'm glad that people of all skill levels can enjoy this game, but I think it is a dis-service to say the game was always casual. I just wish they continued to compromise a bit in both directions, and make more content for all groups (hard and easy), so everyone have something they like doing in Core-Tyria.

 

(because the last time I enjoyed playing Core-Tyria was on a thief, where I made self challenge to play without armor, so I actually have to pay attention to stuff, and could possibly die)

 

---

 

Regarding the "We have high lvl fractals and raids for challenging content, that's enough.":

 

So basically you're saying that people aren't allowed to wish for challenging content in open world? So elite/hardcore/combat nuts, and others that might have mastered the combat system in this game and enjoys challenge aren't allowed to play with their friends/relatives/guildies in open world and enjoy it ?

 

Aka: "get out of my lawn!"

 

I love open world, that and the combat system is what made me love this game. I can enjoy Instanced content, but that isn't where I want to spend most of my time.

 

---

 

> Open world content must cater to everyone, not the minority.

 

(ignoring the fact that 'minority' is part of 'everyone')

 

You can make open world cater to everyone, by making different content for it. You can have pockets of challenging content in-between lots of easy areas etc. Without really changing much, players that doesn't like challenging content, could still just do an hourly call out in map chat and zerg over it etc.

 

It doesn't need to be large changes, not like you need to change entire maps like Harathi Hinterlands to be more like HOT maps or anything. You could make certain areas of the map have some more challenging parts (and clearly mark them as group content, events, so people can stay clear if they want). Like my earlier mentioned group even centaur patrols, that you can just sit out and wait for passing, and go get the poi/vista behind them.

 

In-fact, this is just about exactly what they've done with the "current events" stuff, except that they did it even stronger than I would have done :p

[LucianDK.8615]

The base game does not need to be anymore challenging. The difficulty curve is much better ramping up in the expansions now. Though I still think the mordrem lava lines needs more of a nerf. When you get 2 or more on you at once, its an instant gib. Not fun. Pof is much better in that regard, no unfair attacks.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Brother.1504" said:

> The game has far too much visual effects clutter to make any more difficult. In a group half the time you can barely see the enemy models let alone abilities.

 

Turn off post-processing effects and you should be able to see again. You shouldn't have to, but for some reason GW2's effects with this feature turned on simply blot out everything you need to see when there's a lot going on.

[LucianDK.8615]

Would also help if names of players didnt get force displayed in pve squads, making it a -horrible- clutter in the middle of the action. Compared to WvW where the namer display can be removed.