Joko's Message (MAJOR LS4E3 SPOILERS)

[maxwelgm.4315]

So, today I have stumbled upon this video:

 

I have also found that place and listened to the statue myself. It got me wondering that while this means that Joko probably did die for good, he also kinda knew he would even before the commander reached inside Gandara? I have no idea what they're conveying here. The particular things he says seem just like his absurd lies (creating the gods and kralk) but in the very end ends he says he will continue the story only "assuming he survives this insurrection"*. I think this part was pretty honest and it's strangely odd if this was any kind of propaganda. I also don't know if this "recording" only plays to characters who have completed the episode or if it only triggers after you complete the episode, can anyone confirm this?

 

Now, what's really weird is that he starts by saying "If you are hearing this recording, that means my magic has become unbound". If he means that he's already dead, that would be extra strange given that the point where he interrupts himself is when you get inside Gandara through the sewers (he also knew where you were coming from, perhaps even left the ring signet there himself, did he want to be beaten after all or something?). I did not notice this while doing the story mission, but that statue repeats the dialogue from the mission and he says "It's nice to have a reason to finally break out* the crystal...". This seems awfully specific to be just manner of speaking to me. What crystal could he be referring to and what does it has to do with his magic running loose? Aurene sure seems like she has absorbed plenty of magic from him. This dialogue left me even more sad that they wrote Joko off the way they did because they killed him precisely when hinting at just how much knowledge he might have of the world (while spicing it up with his over the top lies so as to confuse everyone). What do you guys think?

[Anna.7845]

I've completed the episode and it didn't play for me. But that's very interesting indeed. I hope we aren't done with Joko yet.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

>What crystal could he be referring to and what does it has to do with his magic running loose?

 

Nothing. While we don't see the crystal, given the context of when he says it to the PC in the story mission, the crystal is why he can use all those massive amounts of illusions despite being a necromancer and not a mesmer.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> >What crystal could he be referring to and what does it has to do with his magic running loose?

>

> Nothing. While we don't see the crystal, given the context of when he says it to the PC in the story mission, the crystal is why he can use all those massive amounts of illusions despite being a necromancer and not a mesmer.

>

 

I think he is actually talking about bringing out the crystal as in the very fine glass ware used at dinner parties, Champaign flutes, wine glasses etc.

[Skribionkie.2859]

It looked extremely planned. He did leave the ring on purpose for you to find it; while going through the traps, i forgot to activate the stones so i had to go all the way back to the start to open the door so it took longer than it should have, and i hit a few lazers on the way there and Joko said something like "Dude, you have a ring, use it!!!" like he was annoyed by the fact that I ran through the traps. It was planned, from the start, to the end, he did say it himself. That's why there are only two options; either he wanted YOU to be the one to kill him, because you're the only enemy he respects as someone as powerful as him, and that's the way he wanted to go; either he tricked us and he's not dead.

I don't remember exactly what he said the first time his illusion appeared, but he said it was only act I. He invited us for, I think, act II? Did he mention any other act?

[Fenom.9457]

So didn’t he just admit to creating the gods and kralkatorrik?

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Fenom.9457" said:

> So didn’t he just admit to creating the gods and kralkatorrik?

 

A little puzzling, yes, could he be older then the Elder Dragons, or is this just a ruse.

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > >What crystal could he be referring to and what does it has to do with his magic running loose?

> >

> > Nothing. While we don't see the crystal, given the context of when he says it to the PC in the story mission, the crystal is why he can use all those massive amounts of illusions despite being a necromancer and not a mesmer.

> >

>

> I think he is actually talking about bringing out the crystal as in the very fine glass ware used at dinner parties, Champaign flutes, wine glasses etc.

 

That makes a lot of sense and is probably the case. As a non-native English speaker, manners of speaking go all over my head every time.

 

> @"Fenom.9457" said:

> So didn’t he just admit to creating the gods and kralkatorrik?

 

That was, I believe, just more of his propaganda stuff like claiming to have killed Balthazar and Mordremoth. What I think is the most meaningful parts are when he actually claims to know that he would die right then and there (starting with "If you're hearing this recording, my magic has somehow become unbound", and ending with "assuming I survive this insurrection..."). All the rest is probably just him gloating as usual. In the last fight I think it was the only moment Joko was being completely truthful, for when he says that you're immensely stupid for killing the dragons he stops gloating and actually sounds annoyed at the PC's actions. It's really interesting that he seems to have actual knowledge on such things even if he's lying about his age, but we might never know since the next writing team for episode 4 might not even talk to the one who wrote this episode.

[Bast.7253]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > > >What crystal could he be referring to and what does it has to do with his magic running loose?

> > >

> > > Nothing. While we don't see the crystal, given the context of when he says it to the PC in the story mission, the crystal is why he can use all those massive amounts of illusions despite being a necromancer and not a mesmer.

> > >

> >

> > I think he is actually talking about bringing out the crystal as in the very fine glass ware used at dinner parties, Champaign flutes, wine glasses etc.

>

> That makes a lot of sense and is probably the case. As a non-native English speaker, manners of speaking go all over my head every time.

>

> > @"Fenom.9457" said:

> > So didn’t he just admit to creating the gods and kralkatorrik?

>

> That was, I believe, just more of his propaganda stuff like claiming to have killed Balthazar and Mordremoth. What I think is the most meaningful parts are when he actually claims to know that he would die right then and there (starting with "If you're hearing this recording, my magic has somehow become unbound", and ending with "assuming I survive this insurrection..."). All the rest is probably just him gloating as usual. In the last fight I think it was the only moment Joko was being completely truthful, for when he says that you're immensely stupid for killing the dragons he stops gloating and actually sounds annoyed at the PC's actions. It's really interesting that he seems to have actual knowledge on such things even if he's lying about his age, but we might never know since the next writing team for episode 4 might not even talk to the one who wrote this episode.

 

After listening to this statue in game, it seems pretty clear that it's nothing more than propaganda. It seems like he's just speaking to his loyalists, not addressing the commander or anything. And when he jokes about not surviving the encounter, it's clearly meant to be sarcastic.

 

As to his speech about the dragons being the life force of Tyria and watching dragons and gods come and go like tides, it is suspicious and I hope there's more to it that we will find out later, but technically speaking, if he were one of the first humans brought here with the gods he would have witnessed Abaddon's fall, the awakening of Primordus because of it, Zhaitan's rise, Orr's fall, the exodus, and all of that right? So it may just mean he's a really old human and is technically one of the first, if not a primevil king himself. I still think that his full name will mean something and we will find out more about it at some point, whether it be talking to a primevil ghost that may have been alive at the same time and the name rings a bell and he was just one of the first that was an outcast for some reason or even the council that wound up causing the original scarab plague or something much older and not entirely human.

 

I'd love him to be more than just an old human lich, but the more I play the story the more I start to feel like it's not that complex. lol

 

Looking forward to the next episode, and wish they hadn't ended it here. Hopefully they'll make it to the shorter end of their release window this time. If I'm not mistaken the Istan group is doing the next episode, and that map and story instance has been my favorite so far so hopefully it will be a great one. Plus I highly doubt we're getting another mount next episode so that might cut back on some of the production time.

[Askarema.3405]

Hi so this seemed the best place to put this

During Joko's final monolouge/cut-scene, when he mentions us killing dragons, on the word dragon he moves his hand to the side and a dark green necrotic energy spilled from it, and his voice changed. Most necrotic energy we've seen is more green than black- except for Zaihtan's. Given the whole thing with people absorbing dragon magic, I was wondering _how much_ of nod that was meant to be towards the dead dragon of death. Anyways, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only person who noticed that.

[Tiny Doom.4380]

This is a very interesting find. Really very interesting indeed. I don't believe there's much ambiguity about it either. Joko's claims about having invented the gods and the elder dragons could either be more propaganda, delusions he believes but which are not true, or the actual truth. We have no way of knowing which but none of that matters at the moment.

 

Those extravagant claims are a distraction from what does very much matter: the incontravertible fact that Joko chose to make a recording, prior to his battle with the Commander, in which he both anticipated and accepted the possibility that he might lose. The sequence is clearly that he is in the process of recording the message, which is to be played via the statue only if and when he is defeated ("If you are hearing this recording, that means my magic has become unbound") when he is interrupted by The Commander penetrating his stronghold as far as the Torture Room.

 

At this point he breaks off his planned recording to go taunt The Commander but he forgets to switch off the recording device. He alludes to this at a later stage, when he finally notices, and then he switches it off. Before he does so, he accidentally records several of the taunts we hear his projection saying when we played through the instance as The Commander, thereby clearly establishing both the provenance and the chronology of the recording.

 

It's not possible to tell from the recording whether Joko expected, let alone intended to lose his fight with The Commander but he self-evidently recognized it as a significant possibility. Because he was interrupted mid-recording and never had the chance to complete what he was going to say, it's also not possible to be sure whether he was going to go on to reveal that he had a plan for cheating death once again, or that his death was necessary to serve some greater plan, or any other of the myriad potential variations. We just know for sure that he knew he might "die" and that he had some reason to leave a message that indicated he did know.

 

The simple fact that someone at ANet wrote this and had it voiced suggests to me that Joko's story is not over. Whether it is going to contuinue immediately, however, or whether this loophole has intentionally been created so that it can continue at some indefinite time in the future, as and when required, is again impsossible to say.

 

I find it both fascinating and infuriating. I really thought the repulsive psychopath was gone for good. I really hoped he was, too. Now I fear he will be back. Eventually.

 

 

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > >What crystal could he be referring to and what does it has to do with his magic running loose?

> >

> > Nothing. While we don't see the crystal, given the context of when he says it to the PC in the story mission, the crystal is why he can use all those massive amounts of illusions despite being a necromancer and not a mesmer.

> >

>

> I think he is actually talking about bringing out the crystal as in the very fine glass ware used at dinner parties, Champaign flutes, wine glasses etc.

 

I agree with Konig, as somebody who naturally failed the required ten times, there comes a point where Joko taunts you with:

"I gave you a crystal, it sees through illusions, put the pieces together, it's not very hard."

Or something along those lines. Joko is very clearly talking about the skill signet when he makes that comment.

[Hannelore.8153]

I'll just say this, remember that Grenth is now permanently absent. and Joko has access to his domain, even when dead. He's always been an immortal lich, but this could be part of his long term plans-gaining even more power by actually dying and moving on, at least temporarily.

 

Joko's words about creating (or defeating) gods and dragons may be false, but one thing is for sure, he is like them somehow.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"Tiny Doom.4380" said:

> This is a very interesting find. Really very interesting indeed. I don't believe there's much ambiguity about it either. Joko's claims about having invented the gods and the elder dragons could either be more propaganda, delusions he believes but which are not true, or the actual truth. We have no way of knowing which but none of that matters at the moment.

>

> Those extravagant claims are a distraction from what does very much matter: the incontravertible fact that Joko chose to make a recording, prior to his battle with the Commander, in which he both anticipated and accepted the possibility that he might lose. The sequence is clearly that he is in the process of recording the message, which is to be played via the statue only if and when he is defeated ("If you are hearing this recording, that means my magic has become unbound") when he is interrupted by The Commander penetrating his stronghold as far as the Torture Room.

>

> At this point he breaks off his planned recording to go taunt The Commander but he forgets to switch off the recording device. He alludes to this at a later stage, when he finally notices, and then he switches it off. Before he does so, he accidentally records several of the taunts we hear his projection saying when we played through the instance as The Commander, thereby clearly establishing both the provenance and the chronology of the recording.

>

> It's not possible to tell from the recording whether Joko expected, let alone intended to lose his fight with The Commander but he self-evidently recognized it as a significant possibility. Because he was interrupted mid-recording and never had the chance to complete what he was going to say, it's also not possible to be sure whether he was going to go on to reveal that he had a plan for cheating death once again, or that his death was necessary to serve some greater plan, or any other of the myriad potential variations. We just know for sure that he knew he might "die" and that he had some reason to leave a message that indicated he did know.

>

> The simple fact that someone at ANet wrote this and had it voiced suggests to me that Joko's story is not over. Whether it is going to contuinue immediately, however, or whether this loophole has intentionally been created so that it can continue at some indefinite time in the future, as and when required, is again impsossible to say.

>

> I find it both fascinating and infuriating. I really thought the repulsive psychopath was gone for good. I really hoped he was, too. Now I fear he will be back. Eventually.

>

>

 

I suspect hes confident against commander, til he see Aurene, perhaps hes afraid of Dragons, cuz only dragons can eat him?

I need revisit the first part of chapter when aurene come in scene.

 

> Joko Projection: Wh— You brought a DRAGON? There's no dragon in this show!

> Joko Projection: That's cheating. Nobody likes a cheater, Commander. What do we do to cheaters, Istari?

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Seized

 

hes lines about dragons always shows hes kind afraid to mess with:

> Palawa Joko: Oh—and then you impersonated one of my archons and led half my army LITERALLY into the mouth of a dragon.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Be_My_Guest#Dialogue

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> I'll just say this, remember that Grenth is now permanently absent. and Joko has access to his domain, even when dead. He's always been an immortal lich, but this could be part of his long term plans-gaining even more power by actually dying and moving on, at least temporarily.

>

> Joko's words about creating (or defeating) gods and dragons may be false, but one thing is for sure, he is like them somehow.

 

Wasn't it Balthazar who had access to Grenth's domain? And Joko was brought for the ride (and promptly imprisoned/abandoned)?

 

And as far as I remember, it takes an Envoy to gain the power of manipulating the mists. Everyone else and all the souls are just in for a ride in the mists if I recall. It's why Shiro had any power to affect the world at all, because of him becoming an Envoy. No one else that passed into the mists and was not granted power by a deity has affected the world directly. As far as I know.

 

Also, it's certainly a possibility that Joko's soul was absorbed by Aurene. I'd put it as a very slim chance, but Aurene absorbed the power of a Bloodstone secondhand from Balthazar's exploding form. Slim chance because it doesn't necessarily mean that Aurene has now absorbed the properties of the Bloodstone the way she may have partially absorbed the domains/magic of four elder dragons. And because I think all the souls bound to the Bloodstone in the Maguuma Jungle were released as well.

[keli.8076]

Btw guys there are scenes in the trailer I don't recall seeing in the game.

 

Joko preparing for "Act One" can imply its all a ruse and everything is calculated and thus we can prepare to see Act Two in the coming LW episodes.

[derd.6413]

i find it odd he specified kralk instead of saying the EDs in general like with the gods. maybe he holds some knowledge on the ED (joko and kralk were linked like the commander and aurene?)

 

i believe we're gonna have some fun with joko postmortem (and he's dead alright, maybe we'll see him again with king thorn)

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"keli.8076" said:

> Btw guys there are scenes in the trailer I don't recall seeing in the game.

 

Its just new "trailer style" created by Anet, some technology where create scenes not present mechanically in game. In previous chapter theres the thing of Joko Portrait, also not present in game, just in the trailer.

 

[Hannelore.8153]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > I'll just say this, remember that Grenth is now permanently absent. and Joko has access to his domain, even when dead. He's always been an immortal lich, but this could be part of his long term plans-gaining even more power by actually dying and moving on, at least temporarily.

> >

> > Joko's words about creating (or defeating) gods and dragons may be false, but one thing is for sure, he is like them somehow.

>

> Wasn't it Balthazar who had access to Grenth's domain? And Joko was brought for the ride (and promptly imprisoned/abandoned)?

He needs Balthazar's help to get there while living, not while dead. and before you think "well, no one can cheat death" remember that this is a Lich who has mastered necromancy more than any other being in the history of Tyria, his knowlege probably rivals Grenth himself.

 

Think about it: The player character did it without any outside help at all.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"keli.8076" said:

> Btw guys there are scenes in the trailer I don't recall seeing in the game.

 

>

> Joko preparing for "Act One" can imply its all a ruse and everything is calculated and thus we can prepare to see Act Two in the coming LW episodes.

 

Trailers often have extra scenes specific to a trailer. I believe the ones you refer to are created just for a bit of extra theatre to match the theme they were going for

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > > I'll just say this, remember that Grenth is now permanently absent. and Joko has access to his domain, even when dead. He's always been an immortal lich, but this could be part of his long term plans-gaining even more power by actually dying and moving on, at least temporarily.

> > >

> > > Joko's words about creating (or defeating) gods and dragons may be false, but one thing is for sure, he is like them somehow.

> >

> > Wasn't it Balthazar who had access to Grenth's domain? And Joko was brought for the ride (and promptly imprisoned/abandoned)?

> He needs Balthazar's help to get there while living, not while dead. and before you think "well, no one can cheat death" remember that this is a Lich who has mastered necromancy more than any other being in the history of Tyria, his knowlege probably rivals Grenth himself.

>

> Think about it: The player character did it without any outside help at all.

 

Joko actually brought Balthazar to the domain of the lost.

 

Palawa Joko: I was deceived by the fallen god Balthazar. I led him here to claim spirits for his army.

Palawa Joko: In exchange, I was promised a share of his new recruits. But he betrayed me and stranded me here instead.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"keli.8076" said:

> Btw guys there are scenes in the trailer I don't recall seeing in the game.

>

>

> Joko preparing for "Act One" can imply its all a ruse and everything is calculated and thus we can prepare to see Act Two in the coming LW episodes.

 

All the dialogue was in the first instance, Seized.

 

Joko Projection: Ten seconds to curtain! Places for Act One, please, places for Act One. Break a leg, people! It's SHOWTIME!

 

Joko Projection: And...scene. I do hope you'll join me in Gandara for Act Two, Commander—I've reserved you a front row seat. Exit Joko.

Joko Projection: (cackle)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"keli.8076" said:

> Joko preparing for "Act One" can imply its all a ruse and everything is calculated and thus we can prepare to see Act Two in the coming LW episodes.

 

Act 1: The attack on Amnoon

Act 2: Domain of Kourna map, culminating on the assault on Gandara's main gates.

Act 3: Infiltration into Gandara via sewer.

 

Joko planned it all, though I'd bet he included multiple other entry points for the Commander too.

 

And that "Joko's bored now" line was also in Be My Guest instance, iirc.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> He needs Balthazar's help to get there while living, not while dead. and before you think "well, no one can cheat death" remember that this is a Lich who has mastered necromancy more than any other being in the history of Tyria, his knowlege probably rivals Grenth himself.

>

> Think about it: The player character did it without any outside help at all.

 

But we escaped the domain of the lost WITH help, explicitly so. Not only did we get the directional aid of the judge in the domain of the lost, we also had to kill the eater of souls and absorb the spark of life it held within to return to the world. We defeated the eater of souls on our own, but without the eater of souls or the help of the judge (or whatever the dude is called), the commander wouldn't have been able to return to life.

 

Which STILL doesn't counter the point that the only beings who passed into the mists that had any influence over the world _from_ the mists were the ones who were aided by divine influence or were envoys (a quick search didn't reveal any connection between envoys and the five gods in factions). It's no longer about cheating death, he's done that time and time again, but this time his magic has become unbound, the awakened were completely dazed in the same manner that the Orrian undead were when Vizier Khilbron died upon a bloodstone, we have every reason to believe that Joko is well and truly done. Plus, without the gods in the mists now (they've seemingly travelled out of the mists according to the book garden of the gods), the only way Joko could possibly gain enough influence of the mists to affect the world is if he became an envoy. Which it's entirely possible the oracle of the mists would be like "that dude, nope, never gonna happen" after the whole Shiro thing.

 

The commander returned to life, resurrection means coming back from the mists, it doesn't mean influencing the world _from_ the mists.

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > He needs Balthazar's help to get there while living, not while dead. and before you think "well, no one can cheat death" remember that this is a Lich who has mastered necromancy more than any other being in the history of Tyria, his knowlege probably rivals Grenth himself.

> >

> > Think about it: The player character did it without any outside help at all.

>

> But we escaped the domain of the lost WITH help, explicitly so. Not only did we get the directional aid of the judge in the domain of the lost, we also had to kill the eater of souls and absorb the spark of life it held within to return to the world. We defeated the eater of souls on our own, but without the eater of souls or the help of the judge (or whatever the dude is called), the commander wouldn't have been able to return to life.

>

> Which STILL doesn't counter the point that the only beings who passed into the mists that had any influence over the world _from_ the mists were the ones who were aided by divine influence or were envoys (a quick search didn't reveal any connection between envoys and the five gods in factions). It's no longer about cheating death, he's done that time and time again, but this time his magic has become unbound, the awakened were completely dazed in the same manner that the Orrian undead were when Vizier Khilbron died upon a bloodstone, we have every reason to believe that Joko is well and truly done. Plus, without the gods in the mists now (they've seemingly travelled out of the mists according to the book garden of the gods), the only way Joko could possibly gain enough influence of the mists to affect the world is if he became an envoy. Which it's entirely possible the oracle of the mists would be like "that dude, nope, never gonna happen" after the whole Shiro thing.

>

> The commander returned to life, resurrection means coming back from the mists, it doesn't mean influencing the world _from_ the mists.

 

Someone (not sure if in this topic) has already pointed out that it was actually Joko who was able to get there and this is why Balthazar needed him. He was fooled and then trapped inside the domain by Balthazar, but he was the one to take Balthazar there, it's very explicit in one of Joko's very first dialogue to us (also an annoying dialogue because the PC instantly goes to crack some laughs on Joko and basically antagonizes him from the get-go before any exposition is made, just for the sake of making sure the PC is strictly antifascist? I don't know what made them write that particular dialogue in a fantasy game).