(Spoiler) Theory of Joko after LWS4 Ep3 (Spoiler)

[Feanor.2358]

> @"OtakuModeEngage.8679" said:

> Okay, so Joko cant die right? After you kill him, he comes back to life... but wait, aurene ate his body... so what if, and granted, this is a stretch here, but what if Joko is alive inside of Aurene, sort of like how the Nine-Tail-Fox demon is alive inside Naruto. This opens so many possibilities!

 

Nah. She ate his magic as well, because that's what dragons do on Tyria. So Joko is dead for good.

[Castigator.3470]

It would make sense for us to try and help Aurene with her magic indigestion problem. Remember the Anti-Zhaitan cannon we developed with the help of Professsor Gorr? What if Aurene has been hit with that form of corrupted magic as his parting gift?

On a related note, someone falsely referred to Aurene's appearance as a variant of the "deus ex machina". When I played the episode and did the plague events, Aurene would suddenly swoop in and help out with her breath of destruction against the scarabs. When doing other events, she'd occasionally do a flyby attack. This pattern was consistent during the entire living story season. In "Daybreak" Aurene made strafing runs on the Mordant Crescent, in "A Bug in the System" she was helping out in the assault on the Inquest. In fact, the Commander is a dragon champion able to share visions with Aurene. We can scout for our dragon by just being there.

And I noticed that Aurene's damage output is very high, usually oneshotting whatever she's up against. So if the commander is in danger, you can expect Aurene to show up, unless she's too far away.

Anyway, I expect that we'll have to explain some things to Pact Marshall Thackeray. Why killing the dragons is dangerous, and what we can do to contain their minions. Logan Thackeray is fortunately in contact with all the world leaders, and I trust him to handle all official business.

[lakdav.3694]

According to Oola, we are the embodiment of magic. Let us assume that Joko's magic = Joko's soul. If his soul is as immortal as it seems to be (reanimating his body however broken or decayed it is), then I would assume that eating his soul/magic would likely feel like a nasty parasite living inside a host. It could be just a sickness to diagnose (from a number of very subtle hints and symptoms), treat and cure, or straight-out possession if they want it done quickly.

 

I'll just say that Joko has/had an intimate knowledge of the working of life-force, even that of draconic in nature, and he seems much more intelligent, conniving and manipulative than anyone we met before with such knowledge. If anyone can throw a wrench into the whole "Make Aurene into the new ultimate dragon to balance all magic" plan, he would be it.

 

Also the episode's title is an obvious reference to "The king is dead, long live the king", which in his case would suggest switching one form of the same undead threat for another. That, the serious belly-ache and Canach's comment about Balthazar's latent attitude within Aurene seems too much of a hint, for me anyway, to think that Joko's story is done forever.

 

That is until ANet comes forward with a "Zhaitan is REALLY dead" -type confirmation again.

[Tanith.5264]

I'm surprised no one has commented yet on Joko deciding to tell us his full name.

 

Sure, he was in a fit of full-on egomania at the time, but learning that he's Palawa _Ignacious_ Joko was a bit much for Aurene, who proceeded to have a snack attack. Followed by epic dragon heartburn, it seems.

 

I'm still perplexed by that sequence of events, but as I said elsewhere I don't think Joko's story has ended.

[dusanyu.4057]

Joko will be "out" of Aurine in 24 hours. *stinky*

[cdsmith.1072]

As many have said, Aurene ate Joko's magic. The body that Joko inhabited was of little consequence. We know that dragons eat magic from the very first dragon we killed. Zhaitan even had remote mouths to feed his magic hunger. When Zhaitan ate magic the magic item was completely and utterly destroyed. Only the magic essence was left to nourish the elder dragon. Thus, the very magical matrix that kept Joko alive has been destroyed.

 

Does this mean that Joko is gone for good? NO! Look at King Thorn. King Thorn is dead. What we see each Halloween is his spirit coming back to the world of Tyria as the veil between the underworld and the normal world is thin at that time. Joko's soul or spirit may indeed reside in the domain of the lost or the underworld. He is gone from Tyria and unable to affect it as he did before but his essence could still be, well, someplace. Now Aurene might have consumed his soul as well but we can only be sure that she consumed his magic.

 

(No I'm not really being serious here. Just having fun.) Now, if anything is left of Joko's magic we have a few more questions. Do dragons poop? If they do, is their digestion complete? No normal animal has complete digestion. If that's the case then there could be pearls of subconscious awareness residing in the undigested bits in the dragon poo that used to be Joko. A fitting end for Joko but I digress.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"cdsmith.1072" said:

> As many have said, Aurene ate Joko's magic. The body that Joko inhabited was of little consequence. We know that dragons eat magic from the very first dragon we killed. Zhaitan even had remote mouths to feed his magic hunger. When Zhaitan ate magic the magic item was completely and utterly destroyed. Only the magic essence was left to nourish the elder dragon. Thus, the very magical matrix that kept Joko alive has been destroyed.

>

> Does this mean that Joko is gone for good? NO! Look at King Thorn. King Thorn is dead. What we see each Halloween is his spirit coming back to the world of Tyria as the veil between the underworld and the normal world is thin at that time. Joko's soul or spirit may indeed reside in the domain of the lost or the underworld. He is gone from Tyria and unable to affect it as he did before but his essence could still be, well, someplace. Now Aurene might have consumed his soul as well but we can only be sure that she consumed his magic.

>

> (No I'm not really being serious here. Just having fun.) Now, if anything is left of Joko's magic we have a few more questions. Do dragons poop? If they do, is their digestion complete? No normal animal has complete digestion. If that's the case then there could be pearls of subconscious awareness residing in the undigested bits in the dragon poo that used to be Joko. A fitting end for Joko but I digress.

 

I actually hope Joko is added as a permanent feature to Halloween.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> Anyone that knows about our fight with balthazar has also probably heard the truth. Also Aurene is a lot more public. People have to suspect that we're now protecting dragons. To think only a couple people know is just not paying attention. Play the domain of Kourna map. Aurene is fighting side by side with troops during the scarab events. There is no way people can't know.

 

I wouldn't be so sure.

 

To be honest, "killing Balthazar" is not the same as "protecting Kralkatorrik", and only Elonians really know that the Pact Commander fights with a dragon "pet". Even then, most Elonians got told that it was Joko who killed Balthazar, only Amnoon (as far as we know) knew the truth. We don't know how much of these events got rumored back up north to Central Tyria.

 

And what does get there - before this episode - would be just rumors from far off lands. What does get there, would be what Faren, Kiel, and her crew tell Tyrians. And the Small Victory epilogue dialogue doesn't show any indication that they knew the Commander was "protecting Kralkatorrik" - especially since the reason the Commander left was ... very vague. Kiel's involvement with fighting Balthazar (or Jennah's) never seemed to expand beyond "helping the people of Elona in a time of crisis", at least vocally.

 

This no doubt will change with Episode 4 given the events in Ep3, since we have Faren, the only non-Dragon's Watch Tyrian to first hand witnessing Aurene, and doing so for the first time. But even then "the Commander has a pet dragon" is not the same as "we shouldn't kill Elder Dragons because world will go boom".

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Castigator.3470" said:

> On a related note, someone falsely referred to Aurene's appearance as a variant of the "deus ex machina". When I played the episode and did the plague events, Aurene would suddenly swoop in and help out with her breath of destruction against the scarabs. When doing other events, she'd occasionally do a flyby attack. This pattern was consistent during the entire living story season. In "Daybreak" Aurene made strafing runs on the Mordant Crescent, in "A Bug in the System" she was helping out in the assault on the Inquest. In fact, the Commander is a dragon champion able to share visions with Aurene. We can scout for our dragon by just being there.

 

Aurene may have been in the open world in Ep1 and Ep2, but she was never part of the assaults before; all the same, my use of "draconis ex machina" was more of a pun on how she comes out of nowhere in that final encounter (literally - the cameras **face the only entry point she could have had**) to kill Joko all of a sudden while the Commander was defenseless. Which is typically what the dues ex machina device was used for - in Greek plays, a god would come in out of "nowhere" and solve the problem because the hero of the story couldn't. The gods existed before in the context of the play, but they may or may not have held any relevance to the play's script itself. Similarly, Aurene exists in the context of the story step, but held no role in it until the very end, where she came out of nowhere to solve the problem that the hero (the Commander) could not.

 

Like it or not, she **was** a proper dues ex machina. Just like how the Commander "suddenly" realized Mordremoth's weakness.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> Aurene may have been in the open world in Ep1 and Ep2, but she was never part of the assaults before; all the same, my use of "draconis ex machina" was more of a pun on how she comes out of nowhere in that final encounter (literally - the cameras **face the only entry point she could have had**) to kill Joko all of a sudden while the Commander was defenseless. Which is typically what the dues ex machina device was used for - in Greek plays, a god would come in out of "nowhere" and solve the problem because the hero of the story couldn't. The gods existed before in the context of the play, but they may or may not have held any relevance to the play's script itself. Similarly, Aurene exists in the context of the story step, but held no role in it until the very end, where she came out of nowhere to solve the problem that the hero (the Commander) could not.

>

> Like it or not, she **was** a proper dues ex machina. Just like how the Commander "suddenly" realized Mordremoth's weakness.

 

Just a couple of tangential notes, one of which is just general information:

 

Deus Ex Machina translates to "God of the Machine", which was named as such because the gods involved in the play would be lowered down on some sort of lever/pulley system, the 'machine', in order to provide divine aid to a character that could not accomplish the task alone.

 

Even if I may have personally loved her intervention, and her role as a whole since she hatched, Aurene's actions very much fall in line with the trope (tropes aren't inherently bad, but writers need to be very careful about using overused tropes or continually using a trope as their call card in order to avoid consumer burn out or consumers predicting the plotline from a mile away, deus ex machinas fall into the overused and badly used categories).

 

I don't think Aurene's involvement in the story is bad per se (I'm not saying you're saying that, it's just a general point, but the draconis ex machina is poorly worked, I agree), because she has this magical connection with the commander and is now of a size and strength to actually intervene in battles and in general mess up the enemy very badly, but I do think that there are ways that aurene could have been better utilized story wise. It's weird that everyone freaked out about aurene peacing out at the end of PoF and then she shows up as this ally that just helps out the commander on her own (convenient for the story) terms. I think Aurene's intervention at the end of episode three would have been far more impactful if time was given to developing Aurene's relationship with the commander post PoF, and getting to that stage where the players feel like they've re-earned their title of "Aurene's Champion". Because her direct intervention with Joko does feel poorly written. There's a lot to explore, like how aurene is a baby dragon in an adolescent sized dragon's body with the associated adolescent dragon's sheer power, aurene's developing powers (like telepathy, prophecy, and other things too), Rytlock's connection with Glint and how that possibly relates to Aurene somehow (this seriously needs to be addressed, you're telling me Glint is riding shotgun and doesn't say anything to Rytlock? Even if Rytlock pulls the commander aside and says "Hey commander, Glint's happy that you're taking care of her, she'd talk to Aurene but doesn't want to give her false hopes and wants to wait until she's older and wiser, cool thanks, kbye"). But at the very least, the commander's relationship with Aurene needed to have been explored deeply before this moment.

 

Also, I'd personally call Trahearne's ability to open a portal to the Dream to give the commander and allies entry to the domain that could kill mordremoth a deus ex machina, with an honorary mention for the commander's divine inspiration. Would have been a long trek back to the Pale Tree with no guarantee to enter the dream if that hadn't happened. Trahearne's resiliance and defiance against Mordremoth also seem more deus ex machina as well in my opinion. Don't really disagree with how that arc was resolved with a deus ex machina either though.

[Castigator.3470]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> "draconis ex machina"

Please use "draco ex machina" Before this becomes a general trend: You want to say the dragon out of the machine, which is a nominative singular, you use a genitive singular, which translates to "The dragon's [omitted] out of the machine". Please forgive the grammar kitten, but the wrong useage of the genitive case disturbs me.

 

> Which is typically what the dues ex machina device was used for - in Greek plays, a god would come in out of "nowhere" and solve the problem because the hero of the story couldn't. The gods existed before in the context of the play, but they may or may not have held any relevance to the play's script itself. Similarly, Aurene exists in the context of the story step, but held no role in it until the very end, where she came out of nowhere to solve the problem that the hero (the Commander) could not.

To use a theater analogy, let's refer to the Living Story season 4 Episode 3 as the play "Long live the Lich", which is a sequel to the play "A Bug in the System". These belong to the long canon of Plays referred to as:"Guild Wars 2". In the last three plays a character already established in the former series of plays, Aurene, has grown in power to actively help the cause to save Tyria. She and another character, the Commander, or a bunch of other characters have to stop the evil lich king Palawa Joko from unleashing a pestilence on the world.

 

Begin Act one: The Commander is asked to come to Amnoon in order to defend Gorrik, who has been accused of spreading the pestilence. He is a researcher and not good with people. The commander's defense varies by play and can focus on the (lack of) evidence, the (missing) impartiality of the judge, or another issue with the ad hoc court hearing.

Later we find that a krytan delegation has been infected by Joko, who taunts the commander. Aurene swoops in to help the commander in his fight, Joko complains about this.

 

Act two: The Commander establishes a bridgehead base to lead the assault on Gandara, one of the greater fortresses in Tyria. In order to get the troops ready he has to gather supplies, and prevent further spread of the plague. Aurene helps him in this whenever he steps foot on the battlefield.

 

Act three: The commander leads an assault on Gandara and enters through the Sewers. He fights his way through the fortress and faces Palawa Joko in a duel. Despite winning in combat, Palawa Joko is not dead. Being a Lich he can only be killed under extraordinary circumstances. Enter Aurene, who devours Joko.

 

This is not a deus ex machina in the classical sense. The cinematic was for dramatic effect, in fact I can easily think of another path Aurene is likely to have taken into the fortress: The same way the Commander entered. Remember, the dragon can see what we see, as could Zhaitan or Mordremoth with their minions. Dragon influence is a well established part of the story and Aurene, while larger than a human still fits through the corridors.

 

The main argument against "deus ex machina" is, that she didn't come out of nowhere, though. Unlike Zeus, who gets lowered onto stage for the first time in the entire play, Aurene is an established character. Yes, she enters in a "big rescue" moment, but not out of nowhere. This is more similar to the rescue of Iphigenia in "Iphigenia in Tauris", which was, again, not a "deus ex machina" as by that time Pylades and Orestes were well established characters on a mission.

Now, a theater audience is not forced to a character's point of view. In "MacBeth, for instance, we (the audience) can witness several different scenes, while the living story would be tied to Malcolm's point of view, . Now imagine only watching the Scenes where prince Malcolm appears,or worse, the aforementioned Iphigenia. You may only get an incomplete story. This is the chief limitation of the Living Story, we can only witness what happens when the commander is present.

 

Now I will gladly admit that you have to think around this limitation in storytelling beforehand, lest your plot will look jumpy to the audience. Anet needs to be aware, of the fact, that the vast world of Tyria is observed trhough the eyes of the player character, therefore information must be available to him. Not all of it, but enough to prevent the lack of information.

 

>Just like how the Commander "suddenly" realized Mordremoth's weakness.

That was indeed sudden, and I may agree to that being a "deus ex machina", or "deus ex vino" because the Commander's line of thought was so poorly established, he may aswell have been drunk. That mind thing did indeed feel as if out of nowhere. The sad thing: This would have been avoidable with a little careful planning to see how the Commander, thus the player, recieves information.

 

I don't disagree on the matter that the Living Story teams, or the story teams in general have an issue with the establishment and communication of the causal chains, which are the underlying elements of the plot. You need to connect the plot threads, so the audience understands!

[DarcShriek.5829]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"DarcShriek.5829" said:

> > Anyone that knows about our fight with balthazar has also probably heard the truth. Also Aurene is a lot more public. People have to suspect that we're now protecting dragons. To think only a couple people know is just not paying attention. Play the domain of Kourna map. Aurene is fighting side by side with troops during the scarab events. There is no way people can't know.

>

> I wouldn't be so sure.

>

> To be honest, "killing Balthazar" is not the same as "protecting Kralkatorrik", and only Elonians really know that the Pact Commander fights with a dragon "pet". Even then, most Elonians got told that it was Joko who killed Balthazar, only Amnoon (as far as we know) knew the truth. We don't know how much of these events got rumored back up north to Central Tyria.

>

> And what does get there - before this episode - would be just rumors from far off lands. What does get there, would be what Faren, Kiel, and her crew tell Tyrians. And the Small Victory epilogue dialogue doesn't show any indication that they knew the Commander was "protecting Kralkatorrik" - especially since the reason the Commander left was ... very vague. Kiel's involvement with fighting Balthazar (or Jennah's) never seemed to expand beyond "helping the people of Elona in a time of crisis", at least vocally.

>

> This no doubt will change with Episode 4 given the events in Ep3, since we have Faren, the only non-Dragon's Watch Tyrian to first hand witnessing Aurene, and doing so for the first time. But even then "the Commander has a pet dragon" is not the same as "we shouldn't kill Elder Dragons because world will go boom".

 

Tyria a have been traveling to Elon’s since before PoF. In fact the ship we came in on was full of them. You don’t think the rest of our guild came by themselves do you? Please explain how lord Faren got to Elona by himself?

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>And the Small Victory epilogue dialogue doesn't show any indication that they knew the Commander was "protecting Kralkatorrik" - especially since the reason the Commander left was ... very vague.

 

Don't look to the end, look to the beginning:

 

>Kiel's Assistant: When you stop to think about it, this is a god who turned against us. It's hard to swallow.

>PC: I suppose we'll just have to stop him from killing it and get ourselves some answers.

>Kiel's Assistant: Oh, don't even get me started on sparing the dragons.

>PC: Believe me, I'm still coming to terms with it too. Hopefully Taimi can prove it...and soon."

 

Clearly Kiel and some in the Lionguard are aware, even if they're skeptical.

[Zephic.3075]

We don't know how much information has been spread back to Central Tyria and with Joko suppressing information/taking full credit for our victories, it is unlikely that anything more than rumors and speculation that we're "protecting" an elder dragon has gotten back to The Pact and other Central Tyrian forces. It is quite a distance between Lion's Arch and Amnoon and information travels slowly, our mobile communicators do not appear to be standard issue equipment for any group other than our own (even though there were a few instances during the personal storyline where we utilized similar tech). Remember, we're seeing things from our character's point of view and it skews this by quite a bit.

 

According to the wiki, Faren came with Ellen Kiel when she journeyed to Amnoon aboard the Phoenix Dawn, although given how rich he always claims to be, he can conceivably own an airship of his own.

 

As for Joko, he is dead and gone. I really don't think he is coming back. Aurene may have just lapsed into a food coma, haha. Well, she did just eat meat that was decayed over the course of 300+ years.

[Artim.5139]

Just gonna leave this here. Spoken after his demise.

He is making grandiose claims but I do think there is some truth to his ramblings. Talking about Kralka like He made him and The Gods. Is it possible he may not actually be human, but something else?

[Zephic.3075]

The timeline doesn't match up as the last known rising of the Elder Dragons was over 10,000 years ago and there are some clues that the last dragon cycle was not the first one. There is no evidence of Joko's existence prior to 757 AE. We have written records from the dwarves, seers, and mursaat from over 10,000 years ago. Had he been the one to create Kralkatorrik and given birth to the gods, there should have been mention of him long before 757 AE. The original six gods arrived with humanity in Tyria in 768 _BE_, which leads me to believe that Joko is human given his general shape and form.

 

While it is within the realm of possibility that he is not human and something native to Tyria, I don't think it is even possible for someone ostentatious like Joko to stay in hiding for over 10,000 years and then emerge to only create the bone palace in 757 AE and begin his attempted conquests for Elona, only succeeding much later. For someone who was once cornered by Veldrunner centaurs in Guild Wars 1, not to mention completely imprisoned by mere humans for centuries, if Joko truly was so powerful as to create dragons and gods, why did he lose to Turai Ossa so long ago _at his full power_? This is a bonus mission that you could play through in Guild Wars 1 and it is not like he was holding back against Turai. He wanted full control over Elona back then too. Also, the Primeval Queens say that his claim to being one of the Primeval rulers is false, which leads me to believe that he is a younger human who became a lich through his powerful magic and then claim the mantle as the false Primeval king. Everything else is lies and propaganda.

 

tldr; Joko is known for his lies, don't get suckered into believing everything he claims.

[Catchyfx.5768]

There wasnt hint at the end of LS3 so who is villian now? Get Aurene Joko's immortality powers? Get Aurene possesed by Joko? Is/was Joko only puppet and just piece of bigger puzzle?

 

Awakend was "stuned" so i expect Joko is gone. Now Kralkatorik(i dont know how to type this name..)? Or out of desert?(hell no seas)

 

More questions then answers after last episode.

[Fenella.2634]

Do we need a clear singular big bad villain we can kill all the time? Maybe it's a good opportunity for some variety right now.

How about something like this:

People in Tyria and Elona are now well aware of the danger EDs are. They also know that it is indeed possible to kill them. Especially in Elona Joko's propaganda implies it's possible to kill EDs single-handedly if only you're powerful enough. So, with the Pact practically gone and the Commander's group distracted in Elona, I can imagine several other heroes and wannabes to form their own groups in Elona and Tyria. Also, Braham's norn group might still be active poking Jormag.

So we could combine the necessity of convincing the higher-ups of our change of mind in regards to the dragons with some fun fighting different groups with different mindsets. Maybe even gaining new companions while we're at it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Zephic.3075" said:

> The timeline doesn't match up as the last known rising of the Elder Dragons was over 10,000 years ago and there are some clues that the last dragon cycle was not the first one.

 

Just want to point out that the age of "3,000 years ago" is also tied to the last rising of the Elder Dragon. Particularly, everything around Glint, which is focused on the end of the previous dragonrise.

 

> There is no evidence of Joko's existence prior to 757 AE.

While true, this doesn't exactly mean Joko didn't exist prior to then. Keep in mind that 757 AE is when he built the Bone Palace - he couldn't have built it as an infant, and was undoubtedly already a lich at the time. He's bound to have been in this thirties, I'd imagine, at the very least, when he died and became a lich. And there's no way he would have built the Bone Palace on his own, so he likely raised an army to do it. So there's no real way to know how long all that took, or what he might have done before hand. We're likely looking at an ultimate latest of ~700 AE for how old he is.

 

> @"Zephic.3075" said:

> tldr; Joko is known for his lies, don't get suckered into believing everything he claims.

 

On this part particularly:

 

_"He does respect the fact that you were able to screw him over--it's the sort of thing HE would do--so when he's finally got you face-to-face, he drops a lot of the performative aspect and speaks to you in a way that's much more honest. His final cinematic is probably as close to genuine as he ever gets."_

 

The question is ultimately about how genuine he is at that moment.

[Bast.7253]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Zephic.3075" said:

> > The timeline doesn't match up as the last known rising of the Elder Dragons was over 10,000 years ago and there are some clues that the last dragon cycle was not the first one.

>

> Just want to point out that the age of "3,000 years ago" is also tied to the last rising of the Elder Dragon. Particularly, everything around Glint, which is focused on the end of the previous dragonrise.

>

> > There is no evidence of Joko's existence prior to 757 AE.

> While true, this doesn't exactly mean Joko didn't exist prior to then. Keep in mind that 757 AE is when he built the Bone Palace - he couldn't have built it as an infant, and was undoubtedly already a lich at the time. He's bound to have been in this thirties, I'd imagine, at the very least, when he died and became a lich. And there's no way he would have built the Bone Palace on his own, so he likely raised an army to do it. So there's no real way to know how long all that took, or what he might have done before hand. We're likely looking at an ultimate latest of ~700 AE for how old he is.

>

> > @"Zephic.3075" said:

> > tldr; Joko is known for his lies, don't get suckered into believing everything he claims.

>

> On this part particularly:

>

> _"He does respect the fact that you were able to screw him over--it's the sort of thing HE would do--so when he's finally got you face-to-face, he drops a lot of the performative aspect and speaks to you in a way that's much more honest. His final cinematic is probably as close to genuine as he ever gets."_

>

> The question is ultimately about how genuine he is at that moment.

 

And also what he means by witnessing the dragons and the gods come and go like tides or whatever. I mean, technically we've witnessed that as the commander, so it may not mean anything more than what we already know.

 

Though I do firmly believe that he was at the very least one of the first humans to be brought to Tyria or in one of the generations pretty soon after. If he didn't build the bone palace until 757 ae, I highly doubt he would have been able to do that in the span of 57 years, assuming 30 or so of those he wasn't even a lich. That would take a lot of work from awakening an army, to the centaur genocide, which would probably take a rather large army at that.

 

I will admittedly be extremely disappointed if they don't explore his backstory similarly to how they explored Scarlett's post-mortem. The only reason I could see them not doing it is if they felt like bringing him back at some point, but given how dead he seems I doubt that's likely. Plus, why would they when we've already came back to Elona? We will most likely have more interaction with the Order of Shadows in a future episode, so I think that might be the time they dive further into Joko's backstory.

 

Is it possible that they never killed Joko, not because they couldn't, but because they knew there were worse consequences if they did? Something about who he is or his magic that the Order of Shadows knew more about and realized it was better to leave him in tact and doing whatever he does than get involved? I know we're already dealing with that kind of a plot with the Elder Dragons and that his magic has to be unbound which they may have not known how to do or it wouldn't have been as easy for them as it is for us with a future elder dragon at our side. But still, the lack of involvement the Order of Shadows seems to have with the fight against Joko seems rather suspicious. But that could also be in part because the Desolation and current plot had them solely focused on Balthazar and the forged.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> Though I do firmly believe that he was at the very least one of the first humans to be brought to Tyria or in one of the generations pretty soon after. If he didn't build the bone palace until 757 ae, I highly doubt he would have been able to do that in the span of 57 years, assuming 30 or so of those he wasn't even a lich. That would take a lot of work from awakening an army, to the centaur genocide, which would probably take a rather large army at that.

 

A note for clarity: the original Bone Palace wasn't made out of centaurs and predated the genocide of Elonian centaurs by about 400-500 years. Joko didn't genocide the Elonian centaurs until he conquered Elona after 1135-1175 AE. Upon conquering Elona, he had "redecorated" the Bone Palace... using the bones of the centaurs he wiped out.

 

It should also be noted that it's never really said why he hated centaurs so much. He had a number of them in his army during his first attempt at conquering Elona, none were involved in his fall, but the moment he woke up he would insult them left and right. Even though they had captured him as he fled his prison, this wouldn't be enough to spark such hatred in him, comparatively. The only similar hatred he held was for the Ossas and Sunspears - the former he hated to genocide because Turai bested him and imprisoned him; the latter he hated to corrupt-and-enslave because of the glory they got for felling Abaddon (narcissism there). As far as we know, centaurs did neither.

 

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> Is it possible that they never killed Joko, not because they couldn't, but because they knew there were worse consequences if they did? Something about who he is or his magic that the Order of Shadows knew more about and realized it was better to leave him in tact and doing whatever he does than get involved? I know we're already dealing with that kind of a plot with the Elder Dragons and that his magic has to be unbound which they may have not known how to do or it wouldn't have been as easy for them as it is for us with a future elder dragon at our side. But still, the lack of involvement the Order of Shadows seems to have with the fight against Joko seems rather suspicious. But that could also be in part because the Desolation and current plot had them solely focused on Balthazar and the forged.

 

Aside from the rather suspicious "playing to the status quo" they do, the Order of Shadows were open about worrying about Elona's infrastructure should Joko die. Without a government ready to replace Joko's, there'd be quite a bit of strife to occur. And lo and behold, the Commander and Friends didn't prepare a replacement government (as far as we know).

 

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Aside from the rather suspicious "playing to the status quo" they do, the Order of Shadows were open about worrying about Elona's infrastructure should Joko die. Without a government ready to replace Joko's, there'd be quite a bit of strife to occur. And lo and behold, the Commander and Friends didn't prepare a replacement government (as far as we know).

>

 

To be fair to us, the extinction of all Elonian humans was an imminent threat that needed to be dealt with (and probably all humans on continental tyria as well).

 

To be fair to the Order of Shadows, they probably don't care.

 

I wonder if we'll see like three factions, those who want the sunspears to become leaders (which some of the sunspears may object to while others may embrace), the Joko loyalists and awakened (who may spark an internal conflict to pick a leading figure), and the neutralists/separatists who want neither faction to rise to dominance (Amnoon may even become involved in the politics of it all, whether they want to be included or not). I also expect/hope for some sort of discussion about the awakened and whether the separatists or sunspears will debate about their inclusion, and the entire debate about the now freed awakened and whether they are 'people' or not. I want Koss to also make an appearance and **_REALLY_** throw a wrench in that debate.

[Castigator.3470]

Is there a descendant of the primordial dynasty still alive?

That person would have the best claim to the Kingdom of Elona. I can even imagine some Noble will come forth to claim Elona with a rather dubious connection to the primordial Kings. Then there's the heroes, who ended or helped to end Joko's reign.

• The Commander is no candidate, the Elonians would want a local ruler, so Charr, Asura, Norn, Sylvari, Krytans, Ascalonians, Canthans and Orrians are right out.

  Unless said humans are descendants of King Doric, like Faren is, but can you imagine a King Faren of Elona? :s

The Sunspears have historically claimed no rulership over Elona. They were content to be largely independent protectors of the Kingdom.

However, a grateful populace may offer the crown to the brave Spearmarshal, who led the rebellion against Joko's rule.

The Order of Shadows may present Kossan as an alternative to the Spearmashal. I worry, however, that the Order wants to reduce him to a mere figurehead, while they are holding all real power. I don't want Elona to trade the yoke of a tyrant for the yoke of an unscrupulous secret society.

There is Koss. Would Elona accept another undead king? He is a hero from the time of Nightfall and did resist Joko, but is that enough to beat the other candidates?

There might be the aforementioned noble candidate from Amnoon. Is such a claimant appears on the scene, I doubt his "claim" will be able to gather many supporters.

[Randulf.7614]

I doubt it is something we will fully explore. The maps are set in time to Joko's reign so we wont see any impact of a change in rulership so it is unlikely they will waste any time going into that sort of details, especially when it isn't something they would normally do anyway. There might be some offhand comments about the OoS getting the ball rolling or temporary governments, but that is likely it. The story will likely move ahead now to Kralk and then new lands.

[Zephic.3075]

I do agree with Konig that it depends on how truthful Joko is being at the moment of his recordings, but I ultimately believe that he was just playing around. I suppose future stories will tell. When you're an ancient lich who has been around for hundreds if not thousands of years, I would imagine you would get bored very easily. Having someone who you can honestly match wits with and toy around with (i.e. the Commander) is a novel experience for Joko. Everything is a game to him, right up until Aurene flew in surprising him, and then eating him.

 

The Order of Shadows is certainly an intriguing group of spies and having apparently murdered one of the Order of Whispers' agents who came to parley with them in the notes that we find scattered across the Path of Fire maps. They are not altruistic and have shades of gray as they play all sides in hopes of maintaining the status quo. It would be interesting to see if they decide to step out of the shadows now and instigate a takeover with the power vacuum that exists after we took out Joko.

 

I really want to meet with the original Order of Whispers, who are said to still exist in southern Elona and see how different their priorities are from our Pact friends.