New Maps, Metas, Etc.

[Einlanzer.1627]

I don't understand why people insist that we need SW/Istan-style metas on every new map. Not only is that not necessary, it would actually be bad for the game. The world does need to be developed with zones that are there mostly for story/lore and solo exploration and not for repeat zerg farming. Metas like those listed above should only be introduced periodically, not with every new zone. So in that sense I have no problem with either this new map or with the status quo more broadly speaking. What is needed, however, are goals that can be progressed toward in these new maps, like new armor/weapon sets or new traits/skills. I would leave that to Anet to come up with.

 

Generally speaking, though, I would mostly have liked to see more creativity and thematic variety in the maps these season. Last season was great for this. The Bloodstone Fens is a very unique zone, and every subsequent one had a very different flavor. I also think we should occasionally see new real cities introduced through new zones, places where people can congregate instead of just Lion's Arch or one of the Gem Store instances.

 

edit - I do think Gandara is the most disappointing part of the new map. It should have been awesome and it was very lackluster.;

[Microundeas.4530]

The problem right now, and why people are complain so much, is that the new map just fail in every single aspect... No proper meta (like in AB or istan) and no proper small "meta" events (like in ember bay for example). Thus the complain.

[Randulf.7614]

No one is insisting on sw/istan every map though. Istan is a terrible meta anyway, it is just rewarding. As a design, it is abominable.

 

What players want is more well designed metas or something really big and well executed - something not seen since HoT. Silverwastes is held up as an examp,e because it stands out so well in design;

 

- rewarding

- Keeps populations split and not so rammed together you cant see whats going on

- uses various mechanics.

- Requires just the right level of coordination without being overly challenging so all layers can access it

- You can dip in and out at leisure and experience all the above.

- Build with a loose map story to a big boss fight

 

Battle for lions arch was another exceptional meta.

 

Obviously every map being like this would be a terrible idea, but we could have had something similar for culiminating Joko and The Awakened story. Instead, we got something distinctly unepic. Tne closest we came in PoF was the Mouth of Torment and that isnt too bad, just a tad underscaled. Serpents Ire had potential, but missed out with some fairly poor detail and inadequate storytelling.

 

So missed opportunities is behind the clamour for a world boss or SW style map. Every map? No def not, but even the smaller ones are really starting to lack substance and good solid design.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> No one is insisting on sw/istan every map though.

I do love me some good boss fights like Amala tho.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> I don't understand why people insist that we need SW/Istan-style metas on every new map. Not only is that not necessary, it would actually be bad for the game. The world does need to be developed with zones that are there mostly for story/lore and solo exploration and not for repeat zerg farming. Metas like those listed above should only be introduced periodically, not with every new zone. So in that sense I have no problem with either this new map or with the status quo more broadly speaking. What is needed, however, are goals that can be progressed toward in these new maps, like new armor/weapon sets or new traits/skills. I would leave that to Anet to come up with.

>

> Generally speaking, though, I would mostly have liked to see more creativity and thematic variety in the maps these season. Last season was great for this. The Bloodstone Fens is a very unique zone, and every subsequent one had a very different flavor. I also think we should occasionally see new real cities introduced through new zones, places where people can congregate instead of just Lion's Arch or one of the Gem Store instances.

 

You may be right, but that doesn't excuse the rush job on this latest map. That fortress consists of a single hallway and the boss is pretty much pure tank and spank with a handful of adds before it. While not everything needs to be a big event like say the TD meta, this is a sorry excuse for open world content and well below the standard players expect from GW2.

[Vavume.8065]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> I don't understand why people insist that we need SW/Istan-style metas on every new map.

 

I'm not asking for them to be on every map, I just want more of them, since HoT Arenanet have only given us one decent meta map, namely Istan. One in nearly 3 years is no where near enough.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> So missed opportunities is behind the clamour for a world boss or SW style map. Every map? No def not, but even the smaller ones are really starting to lack substance and good solid design.

 

The game is full of missed opportunities.

 

I definitely think that Istan and Kourna couldve had so much more older lore build into it. But maybe thats the point, to show what devastation Joko has created. Which, gets lost in the whole, i want a big impressive meta. I dont know a LS map with that either.

 

Especially revisiting the historical cities and sites feels very disappointing. That Gandara isnt open does bother me too. Though I kind of hope they update it, maybe? As in to be a saved and maybe 7th main city? Wouldnt be possible in the same map. I just hope they do something with it.

[hugo.4705]

I will just assume that the work of creating a meta for this new map, has been given to the wrong person. This new map is sensed to be a war scene.. During the beginning of the story, all your allies are well organized, at the end, they classed themselves in regiments. Just see the map: They are scattered around doing nothing, some ghosts dealing 0 damages to awakened... The map could have been just way more epic by just adding giant bone walls and charr tanks.. So many incoherence: Ghosts which can't see us before and wanted to beat us to death decided to join us? What is their benefits, they are already DEAD! And olmakans? Mouef, no reason, they are on their isle without any problems , looking at the sunset since we destroyed rata primus. And Faren popping from nowhere. And dunno, was imagining a giant fighting along the Inquest (yeah, why?) because JOKO stole THER researchs and have destroyed their facility! And EVERYONE knows what happens to people trespassing on their research fields. (Death)

They will react by sending their new serie of Exterminator and Centurion marks golem, and eventually Suppressor within the fortress. The actual look of the map make me think they thought of that but someone retorted "enough Inquest! Stop It!" and the guy; "Ok then, I will make areas with awakened inquest." But the worst is the moon fortress: only 20% explored, and the corresponding story is very cheap: awakened popping out of smoke clouds... really? Nobody to defend, and an non-openable door crying "He haven't modeled this area! You can't enter!"

[Keriana.9635]

I don't think we need a new meta on every map. However, it has been a long while since we got a large HoT-style meta or world boss, and I would like to see another. It provides repeatable content for me to do after I am done with the story content. I don't like the heart quests much so without a good meta there is not a lot for me to do on these maps after I have completed the story/exploration.

[Pifil.5193]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > I don't understand why people insist that we need SW/Istan-style metas on every new map. Not only is that not necessary, it would actually be bad for the game. The world does need to be developed with zones that are there mostly for story/lore and solo exploration and not for repeat zerg farming. Metas like those listed above should only be introduced periodically, not with every new zone. So in that sense I have no problem with either this new map or with the status quo more broadly speaking. What is needed, however, are goals that can be progressed toward in these new maps, like new armor/weapon sets or new traits/skills. I would leave that to Anet to come up with.

> >

> > Generally speaking, though, I would mostly have liked to see more creativity and thematic variety in the maps these season. Last season was great for this. The Bloodstone Fens is a very unique zone, and every subsequent one had a very different flavor. I also think we should occasionally see new real cities introduced through new zones, places where people can congregate instead of just Lion's Arch or one of the Gem Store instances.

>

> You may be right, but that doesn't excuse the rush job on this latest map. That fortress consists of a single hallway and the boss is pretty much pure tank and spank with a handful of adds before it. While not everything needs to be a big event like say the TD meta, this is a sorry excuse for open world content and well below the standard players expect from GW2.

 

Tank and spank without the tank, even. Given how the game works that's OK, to a degree, but a bit more complexity, showing the rest of the city would be great IMO.

 

I'd love of a future episode brought us back here to a new, post Joko version (you can choose which version you want to go to through the story journal) of the map.

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

Team 3 always seems to put out really rushed, low quality maps. I think they need to reorganize.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Vavume.8065" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > I don't understand why people insist that we need SW/Istan-style metas on every new map.

>

> I'm not asking for them to be on every map, I just want more of them, since HoT Arenanet have only given us one decent meta map, namely Istan. One in nearly 3 years is no where near enough.

 

You WANT more SW/Istan meta, you don't NEED more SW/Istan style meta, so we can split the player base even more as people will pick their favorites and only do that event(s). It's as if people don't know what to do by themselves anymore, and don't give me this, it's an MMO BS, in the current definition that only means there are massive amounts of people online on the same world(well, that's the concept anyways, until you literally get single maps with thousand of players on them at once it's not really massive imo). Personally I think just roaming the maps and doing the events/hearts is more rewarding than any single meta with the exception of AB, but that's my opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree.

 

P.S. The fortress is more than one hallway, it's actually at least two hallways(at a minimum, but more if you consider each turn during the story a different hallway going in a different direction, you just can't access it without doing the story).

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Vavume.8065" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > I don't understand why people insist that we need SW/Istan-style metas on every new map.

> >

> > I'm not asking for them to be on every map, I just want more of them, since HoT Arenanet have only given us one decent meta map, namely Istan. One in nearly 3 years is no where near enough.

>

> You WANT more SW/Istan meta, you don't NEED more SW/Istan style meta, so we can split the player base even more as people will pick their favorites and only do that event(s). It's as if people don't know what to do by themselves anymore, and don't give me this, it's an MMO BS, in the current definition that only means there are massive amounts of people online on the same world(well, that's the concept anyways, until you literally get single maps with thousand of players on them at once it's not really massive imo). Personally I think just roaming the maps and doing the events/hearts is more rewarding than any single meta with the exception of AB, but that's my opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree.

>

> P.S. The fortress is more than one hallway, it's actually at least two hallways(at a minimum, but more if you consider each turn during the story a different hallway going in a different direction, you just can't access it without doing the story).

 

Oh, good. I'm glad they put it to use in the story at least. It's a shame they only had time to open up one hallway with a single loot pinata (minus the loot, of course!) for the open world event.

[Perisemiotics.4579]

The "meta" discussion for PoF should be a moot point by now... devs chose to design a different kind of expansion than HoT - don't expect any metas on the scale or complexity of HoT for a LW episode/map, not enough resources even if they wanted to do it. Maybe next xpack we'll have them again if as many people cry about it as those who complained about them back in HoT :P

[Microundeas.4530]

Tbh, for me is not about not having HoT like metas. The problem is that the so called meta event on this map it's nothing/joke/crap...

They should be ashamed of what they gave us, because they can do so much more... :anguished:

[lokh.2695]

Public opinion is like a pendulum. After HoT was released lots of ppl complained that it's all just big metas now and that ANet has lost its focus in exploration. Now that PoF was released without the big metas and lots of exploration, another portion of the playerbase gets louder screaming for more metas. Can't please all the people all the time I guess.

 

Back to OP: I doubt that player voicing their concerns with Kourna all want an Istan-Style meta in every map. The overall and clearly visible unfinished nature of the map is what draws the criticism. We don't need a big rewarding meta on every map but we want the maps to feel finished.

[LucianDK.8615]

as I see it, Hot was too hard on large metas with little exploration. And pof is too much on exploration with little to no engaging metas outside Paladawan.

We need a happy medium, and not poorly made metas like Gandara.

[hugo.4705]

Simple: Create a serious map, with a good look, solid quests, with any area accessible at the beginning, apart some passages and places which are NOT poi, vista, or mastery. Then, install a massive meta-event using the remaining places (not more than 20% of the map), make him with a minimum of 7 events in a row, and instore a massive rewarding system. Use inovating mechanics for event, like low gravity, magneton, turrets, catapults.. dunno plenty of ideas are available even when the key word is "plague".

[lokh.2695]

> @"hugo.4705" said:

> Simple: Create a serious map, with a good look, solid quests, with any area accessible at the beginning, apart some passages and places which are NOT poi, vista, or mastery. Then, install a massive meta-event using the remaining places (not more than 20% of the map), make him with a minimum of 7 events in a row, and instore a massive rewarding system. Use inovating mechanics for event, like low gravity, magneton, turrets, catapults.. dunno plenty of ideas are available even when the key word is "plague".

 

What is "serious" or has a "good look" is highly dependant on personal taste. I agree that Pois, Vistas and Masteries should not be gated behind events. If you have a massively rewarding meta, ppl with cry that it's a zergfest, if you don't reward ppl, they will cry that it's not worth their time. Using innovative mechanics sounds good on paper, but same here, ppl will cry that it's making them sick or complain about screen clutter. This is not aimed against you, it's just to point out that it's not "simple" to please everyone and that whatever they could have done, you'd find reasons to not like it.

[hugo.4705]

Yeah don't worry, I see what you mean, it's very hard to satisfy everyone. About good look and serious I just meant a whole map without collision issues and unfinished stuff ^^

 

Can't understand, peoples don't complain on all these pew-pew and giant flashs during worldbosses and are simply against rotating around a cube or using portals? '^' D: You can set the options to "don't keep the camera behind me.." A lot of reward is better than none imo again.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> as I see it, Hot was too hard on large metas with little exploration. And pof is too much on exploration with little to no engaging metas outside Paladawan.

> We need a happy medium, and not poorly made metas like Gandara.

 

I must be misunderstanding you, but how is HoT not about exploratIon? They gave us the most complex maps for exploratIon any mmo has ever seen, I'd wager. Further, they designed a system of horizontal progression for it so your character becomes better at exploring as they progress.

 

This system was not universally loved, but I can't wrap my head around the idea that PoF was designed with exploratIon in mind while HoT was not. I mean what is tangled depths but a map designed to force players to toss their maps out the window and explore?

[kharmin.7683]

At least the density and aggro are more reasonable on the new map.

 

/me shrugs

[lokh.2695]

Every map can be explored, that doesn't mean that it was a key idea behind its design. HoT maps were designed as unfriendly territory behind enemy lines. They were designed as a threatening and claustrophobic jungle and ANet succeded largely at that. But exploring the jungle on your own is tricky and dangerous on these maps, hence the "Make HoT easier"-threads that pop up since its release, up to this day ppl want to tone it further down because it's too hard for them. PoF on the other hand is largely solo-able and therefor easier to explore, i.e. catering more to exploration. Also, the maps are more spread out and mostly lacking content for organized group play, i.e. Metas/world bosses, this adds to the feeling of lonelyness in the desert, because players interact less with other players. Again, ANet did a great job at accomplishing what they aimed for, but this doesn't appeal to everyone either.

[Raizel.8175]

I can't follow the discussion that well; at least, I don't understand some arguments. While I can agree that the general map- and game-design of some S3-maps wasn't really good, the map- and game-design went further downhill with PoF. Besides some bounties in PoF, these maps hold absolutely no replayability-value. Out of the current S4-maps, Kourna is easily the worst as it also holds no replayability-value whatsoever. You neither have some farmable ascended equipment (which S3-maps live on) nor some other reasonable well farming-possibilities nor fun and unique gameplay. This leads to the same problem a lot of maps suffer: people get their achievements to be done with it - the specific map. I don't know why they add some real meta-events which aren't just zergfests like Istan or some new world-bosses - both with specific unique loot of course - which would make new maps worthwhile gameplay-wise. Gamedesign-wise, HoT-maps are still the best maps this game has seen yet.

[otto.5684]

It > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> I don't understand why people insist that we need SW/Istan-style metas on every new map. Not only is that not necessary, it would actually be bad for the game. The world does need to be developed with zones that are there mostly for story/lore and solo exploration and not for repeat zerg farming. Metas like those listed above should only be introduced periodically, not with every new zone. So in that sense I have no problem with either this new map or with the status quo more broadly speaking. What is needed, however, are goals that can be progressed toward in these new maps, like new armor/weapon sets or new traits/skills. I would leave that to Anet to come up with.

>

> Generally speaking, though, I would mostly have liked to see more creativity and thematic variety in the maps these season. Last season was great for this. The Bloodstone Fens is a very unique zone, and every subsequent one had a very different flavor. I also think we should occasionally see new real cities introduced through new zones, places where people can congregate instead of just Lion's Arch or one of the Gem Store instances.

>

> edit - I do think Gandara is the most disappointing part of the new map. It should have been awesome and it was very lackluster.;

 

This is absolutely correct. The problem is most of PoF metas are very poorly designed. It is like most of anet map designers from core and HoT left. Most PoF maps feel largely empty, with scattered mobs everywhere, minimal amount of hearts and some terrible meta event in a limited area of the map.

 

I think it boils down to immersion. I do not like all HoT and core maps, but between environments, map layout and event design and flow, the maps feels.. alive. PoF maps feel disconnected. It is like someone randomly dropped mobs and events all over the place, the did a paint brush to make it look pretty. With the exception of swept isles, PoF maps are completely lackluster in thrower ability to draw you in.