Stealth

[MechVampyre.2903]

i main thief since open betas, but after all those years and discussions i wouldn't miss stealth in this game if they were going to completely delete it.

give thieves as compensation some short ranged in and out ports which for example only work as long as you are within a predefined range to your target and enable those ports only when marked your target with an f3 skill or f1 on deadeyes or whatever...

well something like this. would be way more fun to me, than stealth.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"MechVampyre.2903" said:

> i main thief since open betas, but after all those years and discussions i wouldn't miss stealth in this game if they were going to completely delete it.

> give thieves as compensation some short ranged in and out ports which for example only work as long as you are within a predefined range to your target and enable those ports only when marked your target with an f3 skill or f1 on deadeyes or whatever...

> well something like this. would be way more fun to me, than stealth.

 

hehe give thieves some short cooldown ports/break targetting like illusionary ambush so they can be all over the place instead of stealth XD

Maybe they will save it for the next expansion idea. That is the kind of fast & frenetic gameplay I imagine thieves are capable of doing. I saw something in BDO that resembled something like this, I have no idea what it was since I don't play that game though, only saw it in a video.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > > Stealth is absolute BS. You can't even hit them with AoE's. Case in point. Had a Deadeye inside a tower, kept stealthing before anybody could target them. We layed down MULTIPLE AoE's all over the place. Never touched them ONCE! Managed to take a few of us down before escaping outside the tower and running away without a scratch. Stealth should NOT be a part of this game in any form of PvP mode. I can see using it in PvE, but not as an offensive measure. More of a stealth past a difficult area instance. If you want to give Thieves some kind of mechanic, give them Evades and Dodges. No stealth. I'm so sick of stealth it's not even funny.

> >

> > ,....So what really happened is, you placed AoE's in the wrong spots, missed the deadeye multiple times. Didn't support each other to kill said deadeye, and died one by one because all of you were spread out in some random corner of the tower. If any of you had supported eachother, places AoE's around you and moved as a unit, laid stealth traps or used reveal, or Even CC'd,

> > You most likely would have killed the deadeye.

> >

> > >Thieves are supposed to be very Nimble, not Invisible.

> >

> > ...But that's exactly what they are supposed to do. Be nimble and invisible...that's why deadeye got more stealth and daredevil has 3 dodges. . . .

> >

>

> Do not presume to know what we did. Because you don't. We were ALL placing AoE's in different locations so as to not overlap each other. We were bunched up together so that if he did attack one of us others were there to attack. He was in and out of Stealth so fast nobody could get a target lock on him. Stop being asinine to how overly OP Stealth is on top of all the Evades, Dodges, and High Mobility Thieves have. Invisibility, if you want to get technical, should be a Mage spell and not a Thief ability. A Thief should only have the ability to Hide in Shadows or Camouflage one's self, even then it should still be detectable if you are perceptive enough. Again I will repeat myself that Stealth SHOULD NOT be a part of this game.

 

as a deadeye who as killed a ton of people in towers and keeps i often run into the exact same behaviour of my opponents.

first they will split up to cover everything in AoEs to find me. if they are too many i will try to avoid them by keep moving. as soon as one is far enough away from his allies i will try to kill him and often succeed as i will pick a weak target first mostly. this will cause panic and most stack up , often 1 more brave person will still split up and i might be able to kill that one aswell. at this point the rest wont dare do split and we are in a dilema situation. if they split up i might kill them one by one, if they stay stacked and inside the tower i cant flip the tower, if they leave i will flip the tower. at this point it gets boring, depending on mood i might leave or i will wait and try to taunt them a little, maybe someone new will join the party and die before the others can warn him. and usually i will leave then after a while without getting a kill but not allways.

now if you want to actually get rid of the deadeye you did it all wrong and very inefficient. you should have left the tower and asked for some roamer with stealth access to get ready and approach the deadeye in stealth while he is fighting the lord(this is a team mode, use your team). i gave this advise now to many people that complained to me directly, none of them did use it, they prefer to stick to their usual behaviour, die and complain.

just think about that situation from the deadeyes perspective for a moment. would you risk to die in an enemy tower that is closed and that you cant reenter if you die? your opponent that you can attack, can just walk back and be in the tower before you kill the lord in many cases so they dont risk half as much. therefor you will try to only attack when you have an advantage. usually an advatage in range without giving them the option to close the gap and you will mostly attack outside their FoV and the FoV their nearby allies to ensure that none can react fast enough. soo to kill the deadeye in trying to split up and find him can only lead to his death if you can suprise him, wich is difficult if you dont know where he is looking at, but he can see what your doing and make a good guess at where your looking and use it to kill you. a patient deadeye will allways win in such a situation, like a real sniper.

 

also may i ask when that situation was and what server the deadeye was on ? or what else you can tell me about him..

[Turk.5460]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > @"Straegen.2938" said:

> > > > > Without doubt being able to attack out of nowhere, evade/block/teleport for 3s then disappear with few counters is a horrible mechanic for any competitive environment. It is ridiculously annoying to fight against, virtually unkillable unless the thief makes a mistake and has caused more GW2 WvW rage quitting than probably any other mechanic. There is a reason pretty much every other MMO that has stealth, cripples movement while stealthed and prevents re-stealth until out of combat.

> > > > >

> > > > > IMO the fix is to remove reveal and prevent players in combat from going stealth. They would have to buff/change several skills and traits but IMO worth it. Never going to happen though.

> > > > >

> > > > > Signed a guy that has run a thief for several thousands of hours in WvW.

> > > >

> > > > Are you ready to see Thieves with the same base HP as Warriors, new traits to replace SA stealth-related ones that will undoubtedly aggravate you? How about the blocks or *more evades* that Thieves would receive to compensate for losing in-combat stealth? Because as it stands, if you were to remove in-combat stealth and not provide defensive compensation then all Thieves except S/D would be nowhere close to a threat or challenge to *anyone*.

> > >

> > > Yes, because clearly every thief out there is running stealth-based builds, since no build without stealth is even remotely viable.

> > >

> > > Thieves do not need stealth to be viable, they have evades and movement skills galore and many thieves manage without using stealth.

> > >

> >

> > Besides Sword/Dagger builds what other thief builds are viable with out stealthing AT ALL.

>

> There's a Cowboy DE spec that doesn't use stealth.

 

It still uses Shadow Meld (and now stealth from stolen items). And more often than not Thieves building that way still use Silent Scope - it would be ridiculous to not use stealth *at all* as a DE when there are Malicious Sneak attacks available. And P/P certainly isn't viable anymore considering the initiative nerf Unload received.

[Luindu.2418]

I'll agree with there's a problem with Stealth, mainly because the system is built arround play your defenses in response of an enemy you can't see.

On the other thiefs are right with is his main source of defenses.

[archmagus.7249]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Straegen.2938" said:

> > Without doubt being able to attack out of nowhere, evade/block/teleport for 3s then disappear with few counters is a horrible mechanic for any competitive environment. It is ridiculously annoying to fight against, virtually unkillable unless the thief makes a mistake and has caused more GW2 WvW rage quitting than probably any other mechanic. There is a reason pretty much every other MMO that has stealth, cripples movement while stealthed and prevents re-stealth until out of combat.

> >

> > IMO the fix is to remove reveal and prevent players in combat from going stealth. They would have to buff/change several skills and traits but IMO worth it. Never going to happen though.

> >

> > Signed a guy that has run a thief for several thousands of hours in WvW.

>

> Are you ready to see Thieves with the same base HP as Warriors, new traits to replace SA stealth-related ones that will undoubtedly aggravate you? How about the blocks or *more evades* that Thieves would receive to compensate for losing in-combat stealth? Because as it stands, if you were to remove in-combat stealth and not provide defensive compensation then all Thieves except S/D would be nowhere close to a threat or challenge to *anyone*.

 

I'd like to see more blocks instead of stealth. Blocks are easier to counter than an enemy who can just hide in stealth and one shot everyone.

[Warkind.6745]

If every class gets significant access to stealth, then the reason thief has such garbage vitality and toughness is out the window. So thieves would have to receive higher base defensive stats and some kind of rework to make D/x builds viable.

 

But since health and toughness will have been increased, I bet everyone will just run staff or S/D instead.

[Warkind.6745]

> @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:

> I think making physical contact with someone in stealth should knock them out of it. If they have more stealth available, they can reapply, otherwise they've been identified. I realize its all make believe, but have a character swing its sword, ax, what-have-you, I'd think it would recognize that it struck something and where that something was.

 

An important part to taking out stealth reliant thieves is actually seeing whether or not you're hitting them in stealth, because if you do land hits it will proc your auto attack chain.

[Warkind.6745]

> @"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:

> I think making physical contact with someone in stealth should knock them out of it. If they have more stealth available, they can reapply, otherwise they've been identified. I realize its all make believe, but have a character swing its sword, ax, what-have-you, I'd think it would recognize that it struck something and where that something was.

 

An important part to taking out stealth reliant thieves is actually seeing whether or not you're hitting them in stealth, because if you do land hits it will proc your auto attack chain.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> I'd like to see more blocks instead of stealth. Blocks are easier to counter than an enemy who can just hide in stealth and one shot everyone.

 

I can understand the frustration of getting one-shot/insta-downed... whether from Stealth or not.

 

However, I would still like to find a specific instance of a Thief "one-shotting" anyone other than another Thief. Even "insta-downing" instances would be welcome, though they are different events altogether.

 

I can easily see "quick-downing" squishies, but that's not what gets complained about... or at least it gets mislabeled.

[MechVampyre.2903]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"MechVampyre.2903" said:

> > i main thief since open betas, but after all those years and discussions i wouldn't miss stealth in this game if they were going to completely delete it.

> > give thieves as compensation some short ranged in and out ports which for example only work as long as you are within a predefined range to your target and enable those ports only when marked your target with an f3 skill or f1 on deadeyes or whatever...

> > well something like this. would be way more fun to me, than stealth.

>

> hehe give thieves some short cooldown ports/break targetting like illusionary ambush so they can be all over the place instead of stealth XD

> Maybe they will save it for the next expansion idea. That is the kind of fast & frenetic gameplay I imagine thieves are capable of doing. I saw something in BDO that resembled something like this, I have no idea what it was since I don't play that game though, only saw it in a video.

 

guess you mean the kunoichi from bdo, but to be honest pretty much everything about bdo is awful except for the character creator. even the flashy combats were only fun for a few days.

 

well yeah being "all over the place" as you say is what i would like to see.

being somewhere between the face of your enemy and like 450 range is where i could imagine some future thief elite specc with maybe an axe/axes as short range weapon lol

 

i just think they will never have a solution for stealth with that most people could happily live.

and i personally could dispense with the whole stealth mechanic altogether even though i played stealth builds for a long time. but that is just my very own opinion on this, and having all those silly ideas for the thief in my head, i really wouldn't miss stealth that much, if there could be some compensation.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"MechVampyre.2903" said:

> and i personally could dispense with the whole stealth mechanic altogether even though i played stealth builds for a long time. but that is just my very own opinion on this, and having all those silly ideas for the thief in my head, i really wouldn't miss stealth that much, if there could be some compensation.

the compensation would probably be stronger in most cases then stealth.

 

[Trajan.4953]

Face it bois, arenanet loves their garbage stealth system and will never change it

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Thing is though people say other games stealth is more balanced but wasn't that actually 1 class only? I have played 2 other games where stealth gave the play "bleeding/slow walking) but ONLY that class could use stealth. In gw2 EVERYONE can gain stealth... Would be kinda dumb seeing a whole zerg move slow or take dps for being in stealth.

[Loosmaster.8263]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> You have stealth on "all" classes. Most of it is 5 man AoE. Its called teamwork. It can happen in an MMO. No really, it can.

 

I've been caught by this a few times. They always have out to sucker gank you. I literally avoid anything that has access to stealth.

[Aeolus.3615]

Also players could learn wich skills can glitch and keep track trough stealth... If i recall LB ranger 2 could keep damage target if target stealth while taking damage from it, not sure if still works that way or looses track of target instantly.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> Also players could learn wich skills can glitch and keep track trough stealth... If i recall LB ranger 2 could keep damage target if target stealth while taking damage from it, not sure if still works that way or looses track of target instantly.

 

If you still have your enemy targeted when you begin to cast your ability - it will track your enemy through stealth even if they stealth before your cast is completed.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > Also players could learn wich skills can glitch and keep track trough stealth... If i recall LB ranger 2 could keep damage target if target stealth while taking damage from it, not sure if still works that way or looses track of target instantly.

>

> If you still have your enemy targeted when you begin to cast your ability - it will track your enemy through stealth even if they stealth before your cast is completed.

 

Except for a few skills, like UA or Precision Strike....

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > Also players could learn wich skills can glitch and keep track trough stealth... If i recall LB ranger 2 could keep damage target if target stealth while taking damage from it, not sure if still works that way or looses track of target instantly.

> >

> > If you still have your enemy targeted when you begin to cast your ability - it will track your enemy through stealth even if they stealth before your cast is completed.

>

> Except for a few skills, like UA or Precision Strike....

 

Jalis forced engagement works, bit clunky but works, cause sometimes players don't get taunted(they wil have the condi but they wont move towards caster, they just stay there has if they are rooted).

[Turk.5460]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > Also players could learn wich skills can glitch and keep track trough stealth... If i recall LB ranger 2 could keep damage target if target stealth while taking damage from it, not sure if still works that way or looses track of target instantly.

> >

> > If you still have your enemy targeted when you begin to cast your ability - it will track your enemy through stealth even if they stealth before your cast is completed.

>

> Except for a few skills, like UA or Precision Strike....

 

Precision Strike is a little different mechanically as it seems the cast time isn't for the attack, rather it is a cast time to trigger the "summoning" of some sort of AI that launches the projectiles. Kinda like how if a Mesmer starts casting an ability that spawns a clone and their target stealths mid-cast - the clone will still spawn but not attack the stealthed target until it is revealed.

 

UA is similar as it is 5 separate attacks each requiring a target to "cast" - thus why confusion is applied with each hit of UA. (though I think this is unfair and should hit through stealth just like Rapid Fire, and Confusion should only apply once.)

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > Also players could learn wich skills can glitch and keep track trough stealth... If i recall LB ranger 2 could keep damage target if target stealth while taking damage from it, not sure if still works that way or looses track of target instantly.

> > >

> > > If you still have your enemy targeted when you begin to cast your ability - it will track your enemy through stealth even if they stealth before your cast is completed.

> >

> > Except for a few skills, like UA or Precision Strike....

>

> Precision Strike is a little different mechanically as it seems the cast time isn't for the attack, rather it is a cast time to trigger the "summoning" of some sort of AI that launches the projectiles. Kinda like how if a Mesmer starts casting an ability that spawns a clone and their target stealths mid-cast - the clone will still spawn but not attack the stealthed target until it is revealed.

>

> UA is similar as it is 5 separate attacks each requiring a target to "cast" - thus why confusion is applied with each hit of UA. (though I think this is unfair and should hit through stealth just like Rapid Fire, and Confusion should only apply once.)

 

They used to track through stealth then Anet Nerfed them and made them not, it just cancels now, this was done around May of 2016 iirc.

[MechVampyre.2903]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"MechVampyre.2903" said:

> > and i personally could dispense with the whole stealth mechanic altogether even though i played stealth builds for a long time. but that is just my very own opinion on this, and having all those silly ideas for the thief in my head, i really wouldn't miss stealth that much, if there could be some compensation.

> the compensation would probably be stronger in most cases then stealth.

>

 

not sure if it really would be stronger.

at least it would adress some of the concerns related to stealth people often have. which are the feeling of an always unfair fight, because they can't see their enemy the whole time+ some high damaging bursts/skills from stealth, which for many people still are almost unpredictable.

also the additional potential to fully disengage from a fight with ease is another annoyance for some people.

so why not more slippery porting around, instead of stealth for thief.

well of course for some people who already struggle to fight stealth classes, it wouldn't make a difference if their enemy stealthes or is slippery due to ports, but maybe it feels less unfair, since they see their target (although in the end they will run around and change directions all the time, no matter if it is a stealth or heavy porting class they fight against, so maybe just more of an illusion of a fair fight for them lol).

for the thief player it makes fights more intense and active.

 

an elite specc for thief which just disables stealth and has a focus on ports would definitely be something refreshing for me.

as a-net seems to already just throw in unfinished new speccs, they could also rework such a stealthless thief specc later, if nobody likes it lol.

[Turk.5460]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > > Also players could learn wich skills can glitch and keep track trough stealth... If i recall LB ranger 2 could keep damage target if target stealth while taking damage from it, not sure if still works that way or looses track of target instantly.

> > > >

> > > > If you still have your enemy targeted when you begin to cast your ability - it will track your enemy through stealth even if they stealth before your cast is completed.

> > >

> > > Except for a few skills, like UA or Precision Strike....

> >

> > Precision Strike is a little different mechanically as it seems the cast time isn't for the attack, rather it is a cast time to trigger the "summoning" of some sort of AI that launches the projectiles. Kinda like how if a Mesmer starts casting an ability that spawns a clone and their target stealths mid-cast - the clone will still spawn but not attack the stealthed target until it is revealed.

> >

> > UA is similar as it is 5 separate attacks each requiring a target to "cast" - thus why confusion is applied with each hit of UA. (though I think this is unfair and should hit through stealth just like Rapid Fire, and Confusion should only apply once.)

>

> They used to track through stealth then Anet Nerfed them and made them not, it just cancels now, this was done around May of 2016 iirc.

 

UA never tracked through stealth, it would always get cancelled the moment your target stealthed and there was no other targets within range to continue the attack. Precision Strike was changed because it acted differently from other channeled abilities whereas if someone was *already stealthed* the Rev could cast Precision Strike and all 3 projectiles would home onto the stealthed enemy provided it was within range. For example:

 

- I could use Black Powder/HS/Bound to stay in stealth

- Rev could see the red circle and know a Thief was in stealth nearby

- Rev could go to that location and cast Precision Strike *while not even facing the direction of the stealthed character*

- All 3 projectiles would home onto the stealthed character, without the Rev even ever having a target

 

That was the reason for *that* change.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"MechVampyre.2903" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"MechVampyre.2903" said:

> > > and i personally could dispense with the whole stealth mechanic altogether even though i played stealth builds for a long time. but that is just my very own opinion on this, and having all those silly ideas for the thief in my head, i really wouldn't miss stealth that much, if there could be some compensation.

> > the compensation would probably be stronger in most cases then stealth.

> >

>

> not sure if it really would be stronger.

> at least it would adress some of the concerns related to stealth people often have. which are the feeling of an always unfair fight, because they can't see their enemy the whole time+ some high damaging bursts/skills from stealth, which for many people still are almost unpredictable.

> also the additional potential to fully disengage from a fight with ease is another annoyance for some people.

> so why not more slippery porting around, instead of stealth for thief.

> well of course for some people who already struggle to fight stealth classes, it wouldn't make a difference if their enemy stealthes or is slippery due to ports, but maybe it feels less unfair, since they see their target (although in the end they will run around and change directions all the time, no matter if it is a stealth or heavy porting class they fight against, so maybe just more of an illusion of a fair fight for them lol).

> for the thief player it makes fights more intense and active.

>

> an elite specc for thief which just disables stealth and has a focus on ports would definitely be something refreshing for me.

> as a-net seems to already just throw in unfinished new speccs, they could also rework such a stealthless thief specc later, if nobody likes it lol.

 

This brings up the inherent problem with removing stealth from thief: it's a core effect.

 

For your suggestions to work, core skills would need to be disabled.

 

Unless they would do this for an equal number of core skills from each core profession, I can't see it working.

[MechVampyre.2903]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"MechVampyre.2903" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"MechVampyre.2903" said:

> > > > and i personally could dispense with the whole stealth mechanic altogether even though i played stealth builds for a long time. but that is just my very own opinion on this, and having all those silly ideas for the thief in my head, i really wouldn't miss stealth that much, if there could be some compensation.

> > > the compensation would probably be stronger in most cases then stealth.

> > >

> >

> > not sure if it really would be stronger.

> > at least it would adress some of the concerns related to stealth people often have. which are the feeling of an always unfair fight, because they can't see their enemy the whole time+ some high damaging bursts/skills from stealth, which for many people still are almost unpredictable.

> > also the additional potential to fully disengage from a fight with ease is another annoyance for some people.

> > so why not more slippery porting around, instead of stealth for thief.

> > well of course for some people who already struggle to fight stealth classes, it wouldn't make a difference if their enemy stealthes or is slippery due to ports, but maybe it feels less unfair, since they see their target (although in the end they will run around and change directions all the time, no matter if it is a stealth or heavy porting class they fight against, so maybe just more of an illusion of a fair fight for them lol).

> > for the thief player it makes fights more intense and active.

> >

> > an elite specc for thief which just disables stealth and has a focus on ports would definitely be something refreshing for me.

> > as a-net seems to already just throw in unfinished new speccs, they could also rework such a stealthless thief specc later, if nobody likes it lol.

>

> This brings up the inherent problem with removing stealth from thief: it's a core effect.

>

> For your suggestions to work, core skills would need to be disabled.

>

> Unless they would do this for an equal number of core skills from each core profession, I can't see it working.

 

i don't see it as such a big problem. nowadays stealth itself is not a thief exclusively mechanic in this game. it is more about the stealth attacks, which could be transformed into weaker versions that activate when hitting someone from behind or the side while having an x seconds cooldown.

 

if you mean with "core skills" the core class utilities/ traits related to stealth, well those aren't even used that often, whether on a stealth or non stealth build.

yes, shadow arts would definitely be useless on such a specc... so what?

 

also i guess, you would want to use utilities and traits that compliment your current build, so on a non stealth elite specc i don't think someone would miss shadow arts, shadowe refuge or whatever.