Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > I recognize that if it doesnt bring something unique and that another class is more effective. I would choose the more effective class were i given the choice and only allowed to choose 1. > > > > There it is ... you choose. Just because that's what you choose doesn't make it a fact that uniquely skilled classes are more valuable than ones not. That's highly dependent on the player, not the game. The fact a class is uniquely skilled _does_ make it more valuable simply because nobody else can replicate it! This is NOT dependent on player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > I recognize that if it doesnt bring something unique and that another class is more effective. I would choose the more effective class were i given the choice and only allowed to choose 1. > > > > There it is ... you choose. Just because that's what you choose doesn't make it a fact that uniquely skilled classes are more valuable than ones not. That's highly dependent on the player, not the game. If im looking for a Player to provide support in a party specifically to provide valuable boons to the party and near permanent uptime. I'm going to look for the Chronomancer. If im looking for a the highest possible damage output from a player, im going to be biased towards the Staff Weavers. I cant discern the skill of a player based upon name and class alone. Will there be a time where the Staff Weaver i choose completely sucked and the Scourge i passed up was a God among mortals. Sure. But Hindsight is 20/20 my friend. Look i get your frustration. But when im denied from participating in my guilds GvGs on my Power Reaper i dont get mad at them. I get frustrated that Power Reaper are outclassed by damage and brings nothing unique and that a spellbreaker is more valued because it can run full zerker gear and has enough invulns, blocks, resistance uptime, dodges, vigor, and full counters to survive while if i were to play a full zerk Reaper in a GvG, i'd only have 2 dodges to save me from a 15man team turning me into a glorified rally bot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Ok. This thread needs to cool off, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > @"starlinvf.1358" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Arzurag.7506" said: > > > > > Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro. > > > > > Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess. > > > > > > > > But 99% of groups don't want people , that play the worst option DPS wise. > > > > And it shouldn't be always necro at the bottom. Just remember back hot... > > > > > > But thats arguing a moot point. If every build had at least 50k DPS, "someone" would STILL be on the bottom of an ordered list. If you want to build a relevant argument, build it around the how far a build is from Baseline (in the case of Raids, 30k DPS seems to be the target). If every other build except Weaver is doing 31k, and the Weaver does 41k, that doesn't mean every other class automatically fails at DPS. > > > > > > I would take that even further, and argue about the problem of Group comp and total DPS. I bet if they found a way to cap incoming damage on the Boss side, suddenly the incentive to slot as many high risk DPS builds as possible is gone, and the entire puzzle shifts toward fitting in as much sustain as you can while still keeping at the DPS cap. > > > > It's funny because this shows where the actual elitism in this game lies: The people who believe that you can't clear raids with around 22k DPS and up. Is it great? No. But it's certainly enough. > > Raids may also be the prime reason behind the atrocious balancing in the game. If raids never existed, perhaps the actual game balance would be better. A very small fraction of the player base participates in raids, so why build any semblance of balance around it (if that is indeed what Anet is doing). Which to me looks like they're doing when we see the meteor nerf that happened a little while ago. Which in real-time was a slight boost to dps in WvW but nerf when it comes to raids in hitting stationary targets with large hit boxes. > > So perhaps the problem is raids themselves and shouldn't exist. Raids aren't the prime reason for the atrocious balance... The failure of PvP is. Except maybe for Meteor changes (which can still be attributed to WvW), and epidemic just now, most of the class breaking changes were due to PvP. Scourge became unplayable in PVE because they failed to balance pvp, and have just been cutting down damage from Scourge when the problem was never it's damage, it was people being dumb and running into shades with a ton of boons, and the fact that shades have zero mechanical counters. No interaction. Those were always the problem with scourge, and were never addressed, unless you count the 1 second delay with shiny floors... Which does nothing to stop a Scourge from preventing people from capturing a point with a single shade. The Epidemic balance, was again a lazy change. There's way better more interactive ways of balancing, but the current balance team, lacks the creativity to pull those off. So we get lazy balance, and way to little way too late all the time. It's nothing short of pathetic, really. If only they'd just let PvP die, and just focus on PvE, or man up and do a full skill split. But no, it's always back and forth, and we keep having to play with the same untouchable classes, otherwise we can't play at end-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > I recognize that if it doesnt bring something unique and that another class is more effective. I would choose the more effective class were i given the choice and only allowed to choose 1. > > > > > > > There it is ... you choose. Just because that's what you choose doesn't make it a fact that uniquely skilled classes are more valuable than ones not. That's highly dependent on the player, not the game. > > If im looking for a Player to provide support in a party specifically to provide valuable boons to the party and near permanent uptime. I'm going to look for the Chronomancer. > > If im looking for a the highest possible damage output from a player, im going to be biased towards the Staff Weavers. No doubt, but STILL doesn't make it a fact that unique skill classes are necessary to be successful in this game. Again, that's a choice YOU made to take those classes. That doesn't make it true that classes that don't offer unique value to a team don't have any value to those teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said: > Since raiding benchmarks are the 'be all, end all' (/snark), here's a question. > > The common Necromancer benchmarks for both power and condition builds is about 28,000 DPS, when properly supported. > > With that in mind, which raid encounters is a group of Necromancers mechanically incapable of completing? Might be dhuum cm. Not sure about this. But in real encounters you will have less dmg. Maybe 15k DPS was very good when i last looked at raidars. But Necro was at max 11k But encounters where necromancer won't be taken? Basically every encounter if you want to pug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Conqueror.3682" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > I didn't mention how they lose damage. I said they lose their own health. Big difference. Our rotation requires us to use corruptions which depending on the corruption used this can be a little bit of health to all of your health. BiP does 100% of your health in damage to yourself. Just last night I did 30% of damage to myself because I missed a transfer. And if no condition cleans is available at the time then I have to use life force to convert those conditions which harms my rotation. Messing up on a rotation is one thing. But damaging your future rotation and potentially killing yourself is a whole other thing. I'm not complaining about that, but I am pointing out that this should have a stronger reward for such a risky way of playing dps. > > I see now, sorry, was just bad comprehension from me > > But i never had problems with my corruptions, even using master of corruption trait, like yes, with plague sending i can transfer them every time i use sand shroud with no problem, and i have enough life force to use sand shroud and nefarious favor to cleanse conditons from myself. But yes, sometimes is just annoying and some fights just end with half of my hp gone, i dont like the last change that they did to blood is power, with 2 charges and half the might generation, because you get double the conditions. > > Usually i run with blood fiend to have a passive heal generation, sad that blood fiend attacks doesnt scale with healing power. > > Now, why corruptions have to put conditions on yourself? or maybe master of corruption should be reworked? because like every trait of utility skill on every class gives you a benefit, like "your shouts have reduced recharge "or "your traps have increased effects", etc... they give you positive effects, corruptions are the only utility skills which have a trait that gives you a positive effect, reduce recharge but also a negative effect, you suffer more conditions. While i accept that the cd reduction is big (33%), corruption skills dont have big cooldowns to justify that the trait must punish us with more conditions. I'm at work so I can't make a larger response. Even a few seconds though is thousands of damage to yourself if you get interrupted for whatever reason. And also if you get blinded or have pathing issues it will fail. Plague sending will fail to trigger if you are blinded or if its blocked. I've had this happen more times than I can count. Personally I feel rather than giving might BiP should give a unique buff. Preferably a party buff. Either way scourge is very particular in how it does its rotation. It took me months to learn how to function properly one it where as no other spec on any other class was that difficult for me to get used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > I recognize that if it doesnt bring something unique and that another class is more effective. I would choose the more effective class were i given the choice and only allowed to choose 1. > > > > There it is ... you choose. Just because that's what you choose doesn't make it a fact that uniquely skilled classes are more valuable than ones not. That's highly dependent on the player, not the game. Obtena pls stop it. It's always that "that's not the design" argument coming from you. I could give tons of examples where anet fcked up their design of a skill or class or trait. If you play with a group, you always want to be useful to the group. That's how mmos work. Teamplay is the keyword. Yes sometimes you have to carry people. Sometimes you get carried. But As i was mentioning. Teamplay. Would you want to hinder your group by not bringing something everyone else brings? Let's make this a real-life problem: You are invited to a party, everyone brings something to eat or drink. You're the only one that didn't bring anything. If you are a team player now. You would feel bad. That's exactly the same with necro in raids. It doesn't bring as much as others do. So i feel bad playing necro in raids. But it's still my favourite design. Even though anet fcked up that design a lot. So for me. I'm not allowed to play my favourite profession. That's as if you bring a cake to the party, but noone at the party likes cakes. Just go to the wiki. It says about necromancer, that necro uses the lifeforce to strengthen and heal allies. Does core do that? Does reaper do that? Maybe scourge kinda heals, but where is the strengthening? So pls stop arguing with design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizardauz.3761 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Wizardauz.3761" said: > > > I recognize that if it doesnt bring something unique and that another class is more effective. I would choose the more effective class were i given the choice and only allowed to choose 1. > > > > > > > There it is ... you choose. Just because that's what you choose doesn't make it a fact that uniquely skilled classes are more valuable than ones not. That's highly dependent on the player, not the game. > > Obtena pls stop it. It's always that "that's not the design" argument coming from you. > I could give tons of examples where anet fcked up their design of a skill or class or trait. > > If you play with a group, you always want to be useful to the group. That's how mmos work. Teamplay is the keyword. > Yes sometimes you have to carry people. > Sometimes you get carried. > > But > > As i was mentioning. Teamplay. Would you want to hinder your group by not bringing something everyone else brings? > > Let's make this a real-life problem: You are invited to a party, everyone brings something to eat or drink. You're the only one that didn't bring anything. > If you are a team player now. You would feel bad. > > That's exactly the same with necro in raids. It doesn't bring as much as others do. So i feel bad playing necro in raids. But it's still my favourite design. Even though anet fcked up that design a lot. So for me. I'm not allowed to play my favourite profession. That's as if you bring a cake to the party, but noone at the party likes cakes. > > Just go to the wiki. It says about necromancer, that necro uses the lifeforce to strengthen and heal allies. > Does core do that? Does reaper do that? > Maybe scourge kinda heals, but where is the strengthening? > So pls stop arguing with design. The class fantasy, the aesthetics, the animations, the armor, and the feel of necro is so spot on and satisfying but yet the execution is just so off... Funny how that works huh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > So pls stop arguing with design. Right .. because the original design intent is completely irrelevant! :confounded: Shocker for you ... IT is what drives the decisions that Anet makes to change the class. It's practically the ONLY basis that exists for discussing class changes. You aren't going to sell anyone on the idea that Necro isn't useful to a group, because not being meta does not mean not being useful. Besides, how you define useful seems to be not inline with why people choose and play classes in the first place. if you want to bow to meta, you have to make choices inline with that philosophy, but the game does not require you to do that. The best part is that the hardest group your going to try to convince are Anet, so I guess we are safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SidewayS.3789 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > So pls stop arguing with design. > > Right .. because the original design intent is completely irrelevant! :confounded: > > Shocker for you ... IT is what drives the decisions that Anet makes to change the class. It's practically the ONLY basis that exists for discussing class changes. > > You aren't going to sell anyone on the idea that Necro isn't useful to a group, because not being meta does not mean not being useful. Besides, how you define useful seems to be not inline with why people choose and play classes in the first place. if you want to bow to meta, you have to make choices inline with that philosophy, but the game does not require you to do that. The best part is that the hardest group your going to try to convince are Anet, so I guess we are safe. > As usual, just like in the raid forum, you are out of context. So please stop posting this crap and go back to general discussion part. Necro has been always at the bottom in PvE, only on those moments when reaper/scourge had some "bugs" that the necro class was in ok place. Like i said, you are out of context and of the reality of this game too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"SidewayS.3789" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > So pls stop arguing with design. > > > > Right .. because the original design intent is completely irrelevant! :confounded: > > > > Shocker for you ... IT is what drives the decisions that Anet makes to change the class. It's practically the ONLY basis that exists for discussing class changes. > > > > You aren't going to sell anyone on the idea that Necro isn't useful to a group, because not being meta does not mean not being useful. Besides, how you define useful seems to be not inline with why people choose and play classes in the first place. if you want to bow to meta, you have to make choices inline with that philosophy, but the game does not require you to do that. The best part is that the hardest group your going to try to convince are Anet, so I guess we are safe. > > > > As usual, just like in the raid forum, you are out of context. I'm out of context? Great ... so what is it? I got not problem getting on track to whatever context you want to discuss the idea that design of the class is irrelevant to changing what and how it does things, in any game mode. If you think the class concept and design has NOTHING to do with how Anet changes the game and the resulting impact on how a class performs, you tell me why and we can talk about that because I can assure you, it's fundamental. Again, this isn't a mystery. If there is a bottom, someone is it. In this game, being bottom is only relevant IF you adhere to a player-imposed idea of playing optimally that has nothing to do with any limitation that exists in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 I know necro golem benchmarks are low, but how are necros in raids? When you, as a necro, do a raid, is your dps last also? I never played necro, but I used to play power mesmer back when snowcrows and qt didn't even add it to their list of dps builds on the site. They said it wasn't viable but I was always topping the meter in raids. So, aside from golem benchmarks, how are necros doing really? I don't play necro so idk. I just have my own experience of playing "not viable" builds and still topping meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > I know necro golem benchmarks are low, but how are necros in raids? When you, as a necro, do a raid, is your dps last also? I never played necro, but I used to play power mesmer back when snowcrows and qt didn't even add it to their list of dps builds on the site. They said it wasn't viable but I was always topping the meter in raids. So, aside from golem benchmarks, how are necros doing really? I don't play necro so idk. I just have my own experience of playing "not viable" builds and still topping meters. depends on the players really, bad players will be out dpsed by a decent necro, but a half-decent player will be on par with or even out dps a good necro depending on skill gap between the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > Raids aren't the prime reason for the atrocious balance... The failure of PvP is. Looking at epidemic which was a prime raid/fractal tool that necros used Raids fore sure do have some weight in terms of balance now more than you might give them credit for. You are correct they might not be the prime reason but they do have enough reason to be part of it. WvW and PvP are more weighted though. > Except maybe for Meteor changes (which can still be attributed to WvW), and epidemic just now, most of the class breaking changes were due to PvP. Scourge became unplayable in PVE because they failed to balance pvp, and have just been cutting down damage from Scourge when the problem was never it's damage, it was people being dumb and running into shades with a ton of boons, and the fact that shades have zero mechanical counters. No interaction. > Those were always the problem with scourge, and were never addressed, unless you count the 1 second delay with shiny floors... Which does nothing to stop a Scourge from preventing people from capturing a point with a single shade. > > The Epidemic balance, was again a lazy change. There's way better more interactive ways of balancing, but the current balance team, lacks the creativity to pull those off. So we get lazy balance, and way to little way too late all the time. > It's nothing short of pathetic, really. If only they'd just let PvP die, and just focus on PvE, or man up and do a full skill split. But no, it's always back and forth, and we keep having to play with the same untouchable classes, otherwise we can't play at end-game. If you are going to blame pvp here is my theory on the matter Yes skill splits are one way to certainly fix part of the issue but it wont solve all of them. My argument would be that the majority of pvp balance issues stem from the fact that it all should not be based around capture and hold. Most professions become imbalanced when you design something built to fight but shove it into a capture and hold setting where its job is to sit on the point as long as possible and very rarely will a full fledge team fight occur on said point. Fighting a profession over a point vs out in the open can lead to vastly different results regardless of its mechanics Let me give an example on what i mean "People being dumb and running into scourge circles." If the game modes were not always capture and hold which requires you to stand on a specific spot to win points for your team people wouldn't feel forced to run into them or engage the scourge in its circles at all if they didn't have to. In all the years of this game the only new pvp mode they really have introduced is some what similar to a moba style game and alot of people dont like it. but it does force more interaction between players even if you run a super sustain tanky build fighting in open space vs fighting on a small point is vastly different. When fighting in an open space people can choose to ignore you for being overly tanky and take down your team instead when on a point people cant ignore you unless they want to simply give you the win. That and fighting in a fix space for control to secure the win in a small scale is what makes most professions seem utterly busted in pvp. As aresult anet at first often killed things by kicking them in pvp and pve at the same time which lead to this horrid balance. Tempest strong a point >Nerf tempest > Reaper strong on a point > Nerf reaper > Scourge strong on a point > Nerf scourge >Fire brand strong on a point > Nerf fire brand. Druid strong on a point.... you get where im going with this. If you take alot of these specs and professions and pop them down in a full fledge fight their tools become more in line (with the exception of the bugged version of scourge but we wont talk about that) Dont get me wrong im not saying the standard spvp we all know with its capture and hold should be fully removed but new modes should be introduced and a chunk of the capture and hold should be removed I believe it would be best for anet to remove a large portion of the capture and hold and have many of the maps focus on the secondary mini game objectives in those maps as the main objectives. They could do things like - First to slay the blue/red lord wins. Ideally this is just a base race with more AI defenders before reaching the lord. No super fancy mechanics / minions required to break down the base doors. It would be on players to make the right call to push forward or return and defend their base. - Defeat the defender golem and use its power core to activate the skycannon. Use the skycannon to destroy your enemies spawn point (hit it 3 times) once you have no spawn point when all members of your team are defeated you lose. - Spirit watch only focusing on the capture the flag / orb - Your standard team death match - Protect the Dolyak Supply caravan / Destroy the Dolyak Supply caravan. Teams do this for a minimum of 3 rounds with potential matches going up to 5 rounds rounds swapping sides after each a successful delivery or defeat of the Supply caravan earning the respective team the point. etc. In any case how ever they do it it needs to be something that encourages bigger scale team interactions more often. Game modes in spvp that promote more active play and direct interaction and not just covering a point for as long as possible would reveal what needs proper balance in pvp and then from that point they should adjust with skill splits for pve and pvp. I honestly think alot of pvp problems wouldn't be problems if the main objective modes were not always capture and hold to win. Different modes would also gives different weight strengths to different professions, and different elite specs. rather than some of them just being phased out nearly completely. How anet has not realized this is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > > Raids aren't the prime reason for the atrocious balance... The failure of PvP is. > Looking at epidemic which was a prime raid/fractal tool that necros used Raids fore sure do have some weight in terms of balance now more than you might give them credit for. You are correct they might not be the prime reason but they do have enough reason to be part of it. WvW and PvP are more weighted though. > If you'd only split the quotes one paragraph down. Meteor Shower and Epidemic were probably with PvE in mind, but those are the only real exception i can think of in almost 6 years of balance. Which is what i said. Its not that they don't balance stuff with PvE in mind, but usually these changes tend to be more QoL and rarely will have any major impact in the classe's overall performance. While PvP balance has a real tendency to simply render whole classes and elite specs useless in pve. The major issue here isn't really what they balance for, since they should balance for both game modes. The problem is when changes in one game mode have bleed over to the other game modes with catastrophic consequences. And the direction of those tends to be PvP changes bleeding over to PvE. Very rarely is it in the reverse. > > Except maybe for Meteor changes (which can still be attributed to WvW), and epidemic just now, most of the class breaking changes were due to PvP. Scourge became unplayable in PVE because they failed to balance pvp, and have just been cutting down damage from Scourge when the problem was never it's damage, it was people being dumb and running into shades with a ton of boons, and the fact that shades have zero mechanical counters. No interaction. > > Those were always the problem with scourge, and were never addressed, unless you count the 1 second delay with shiny floors... Which does nothing to stop a Scourge from preventing people from capturing a point with a single shade. > > > > The Epidemic balance, was again a lazy change. There's way better more interactive ways of balancing, but the current balance team, lacks the creativity to pull those off. So we get lazy balance, and way to little way too late all the time. > > It's nothing short of pathetic, really. If only they'd just let PvP die, and just focus on PvE, or man up and do a full skill split. But no, it's always back and forth, and we keep having to play with the same untouchable classes, otherwise we can't play at end-game. > If you are going to blame pvp here is my theory on the matter > Yes skill splits are one way to certainly fix part of the issue but it wont solve all of them. > My argument would be that the majority of pvp balance issues stem from the fact that it all should not be based around capture and hold. > Most professions become imbalanced when you design something built to fight but shove it into a capture and hold setting where its job is to sit on the point as long as possible and very rarely will a full fledge team fight occur on said point. > > Fighting a profession over a point vs out in the open can lead to vastly different results regardless of its mechanics > Let me give an example on what i mean "People being dumb and running into scourge circles." If the game modes were not always capture and hold which requires you to stand on a specific spot to win points for your team people wouldn't feel forced to run into them or engage the scourge in its circles at all if they didn't have to. > > In all the years of this game the only new pvp mode they really have introduced is some what similar to a moba style game and alot of people dont like it. but it does force more interaction between players even if you run a super sustain tanky build fighting in open space vs fighting on a small point is vastly different. When fighting in an open space people can choose to ignore you for being overly tanky and take down your team instead when on a point people cant ignore you unless they want to simply give you the win. That and fighting in a fix space for control to secure the win in a small scale is what makes most professions seem utterly busted in pvp. As aresult anet at first often killed things by kicking them in pvp and pve at the same time which lead to this horrid balance. Tempest strong a point >Nerf tempest > Reaper strong on a point > Nerf reaper > Scourge strong on a point > Nerf scourge >Fire brand strong on a point > Nerf fire brand. Druid strong on a point.... you get where im going with this. > > If you take alot of these specs and professions and pop them down in a full fledge fight their tools become more in line (with the exception of the bugged version of scourge but we wont talk about that) > > Dont get me wrong im not saying the standard spvp we all know with its capture and hold should be fully removed but new modes should be introduced and a chunk of the capture and hold should be removed I believe it would be best for anet to remove a large portion of the capture and hold and have many of the maps focus on the secondary mini game objectives in those maps as the main objectives. > > They could do things like > - First to slay the blue/red lord wins. Ideally this is just a base race with more AI defenders before reaching the lord. No super fancy mechanics / minions required to break down the base doors. It would be on players to make the right call to push forward or return and defend their base. > - Defeat the defender golem and use its power core to activate the skycannon. Use the skycannon to destroy your enemies spawn point (hit it 3 times) once you have no spawn point when all members of your team are defeated you lose. > - Spirit watch only focusing on the capture the flag / orb > - Your standard team death match > - Protect the Dolyak Supply caravan / Destroy the Dolyak Supply caravan. Teams do this for a minimum of 3 rounds with potential matches going up to 5 rounds rounds swapping sides after each a successful delivery or defeat of the Supply caravan earning the respective team the point. > etc. > > In any case how ever they do it it needs to be something that encourages bigger scale team interactions more often. > Game modes in spvp that promote more active play and direct interaction and not just covering a point for as long as possible would reveal what needs proper balance in pvp and then from that point they should adjust with skill splits for pve and pvp. I honestly think alot of pvp problems wouldn't be problems if the main objective modes were not always capture and hold to win. > > Different modes would also gives different weight strengths to different professions, and different elite specs. rather than some of them just being phased out nearly completely. > > How anet has not realized this is beyond me. > You're not wrong. Arena Net's bet on Conquest because it was the "most played" and the "community favourite" was a poor bet imho. The problem with courtyard wasn't that it was a Death Match, it was that the map itself was kinda crap. Same with stronghold, again the problem is the map, and that they never updated the concept after launch, just gave up on it. Arena Net tends to have a very weird approach. When something doesn't go well they either quit on it entirely (ie: Stronghold), or double down and shove it in out faces until we just have to accept it (ie: Mountgate, the balance). They can produce good PvP, and they've shown it, the problem is that they never thought to adapt it. Dragon Ball, Reaper's Rumble, Snowball Mayhem and Aspect Arena. These are definitely some of the best PvP experiences they've ever released. And Reaper's Rumble was never re-released for some weird reason although it was pretty awesome and fun. I honestly thought that Reaper's Rumble would be a new sPvP map/game mode when it released (Haloween was the first "living world" release so we didn't really know what to expect). It kinda hinted at it when it came out. Much to my, and several of my friend's dismay, it not only didn't stay as a sPvP mode, but it never returned. Snowball Mayhem could be adapted as a new PvP mode using regular weapon skills instead of the special ones from wintersday. But i disagree that the game type is at fault for the poor balance... In my opinion, it seems to be more of a mix between lack of creativity, drive and courage to effect deep changes when needed. For example, Epidemic, instead of tweaking the numbers to just "reduces the duration of subsequent conditions", it could be made to have a secondary effect, lets call it "Immune Response". Each time Epidemic hits a target it gets x stacks of Immune Response (it also stacks duration). X can be tweaked to balance. * At 5 stacks of Immune Response, target gets a new effect "Inflamation", this would reduce the duration of all **damage** conditions on the target by 20%. But not just that, this would also have a random effect triggered: Nothing, Target gets slowed (from the pain and inflamed joints), Target gains Immunity (cleanses all stacks of Immune response, all conditions and gives x seconds Resistence), target gets random more stacks of IR. * At 10 stacks of Immune Response, target gains another effect "Fever", this can stack with Inflamation. Fever would further reduce the duration of all **damage conditions** by 30%. It would also have more random effects. "Delerium" would cause the target to spawn Hallucinations, like those from Ibogas and Toxic Alliance, could also gain Immunity or extra stacks of IR. * At 15 stacks it would gain "Critical Response". This would randomly increase the effects of Fever and Inflamation. Also after this point each subsequent stack of IR would give a random chance of either getting Immunity or "collapsing" - going to down-state. * At 20 stacks, target would automatically get immunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them? Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them? > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique. If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them? > > > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique. > > If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis. I'd even say that being unique in to many way is the reason for the necromancer's trouble in PvE and it's e-specs issues when they are released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrother.1340 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > > > > -No real mobility > > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > > > > -Weak to cc > > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > > > > -healthpool > > > > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > -no mobility > > > > > > -No blocks > > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > > > > - no invincibility > > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > > > > - weak to cc > > > > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > > > > But guess what. It's not. > > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > > > > And i really think they should patch out minions. > > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. > > > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. > > > > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing. > > > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game. > > > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here. > > That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it. > > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with. Try again your are completely misreading what I am saying. You are actually in agreement with me and read this backwards... we actually both feel the same about this :) it is indeed a function of people, the issue on ANETS end is there inability to create a more stable balance in this game in general. Which so many years later should not be so problematic each time they issue a balance patch. Small moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 We aren't in agreement. You believe Anet is taking small steps to balance, which isn't unreasonable ... I just don't think it's a realistic goal given the amount of combinations of things we have. I don't think they are even attempting balance because it's not necessary in this game ... and for many other reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them? > > > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique. > > If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis. Well, my question is an honest question. While I may think that being unique is a requirement or shouldn't be a requirement since the people who feel that Necromancer sucks feel it is I want to understand what they see as unique from the other 8 professions that make those professions better than Necromancer. I personally don't think that there are really all that many things to be uniquely different at. So if the problem is that they suck because they don't have enough DPS and they aren't unique then what do the other 8 bring to the table that Necromancer can't and that no one else can replace either. Afterall, there is very little chance if ever that anyone is going to dethrone Elementalist as top DSP. > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > > > > > -No real mobility > > > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > > > > > -Weak to cc > > > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > > > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > > > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > > > > > -healthpool > > > > > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > -no mobility > > > > > > > -No blocks > > > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > > > > > - no invincibility > > > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > > > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > > > > > - weak to cc > > > > > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > > > > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > > > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > > > > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > > > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > > > > > But guess what. It's not. > > > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > > > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > > > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > > > > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > > > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > > > > > And i really think they should patch out minions. > > > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > > > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > > > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > > > > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > > > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > > > > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. > > > > > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. > > > > > > > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing. > > > > > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game. > > > > > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here. > > > > That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it. > > > > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with. > > Try again your are completely misreading what I am saying. You are actually in agreement with me and read this backwards... we actually both feel the same about this :) > > it is indeed a function of people, the issue on ANETS end is there inability to create a more stable balance in this game in general. Which so many years later should not be so problematic each time they issue a balance patch. Small moves. Actually, game balance is an extremely problematic thing. The more factions you have the harder it becomes to balance. Even something as small as 9 is terribly difficult. I have not really played very many games where perfect balance was achieved. This includes video games, table top rpgs, and even CCG/LCG/Minis. Thus ANet not having better balance is not a unique problem that plagues them but a problem that seems to arise in any activity of this nature. So while you think it should not be problematic the greater bulk of gaming life across the board seems to indicate otherwise. It's the leading reason why there is always a bottom that someone is always going to occupy. It is also a strong reason why a single group remains stuck at the bottom once they've hit it, it is easier to fall from grace than it is to rise from the ashes. Personally, I've found the games that simple just say they don't care about balance issues to be more fun as they are actually open and honest about it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Defiance is what makes balance between PvE and competitive play so difficult. Other than making end-game bosses equally hard on boons as they are on conditions, there are not many options to harmonize the game modes. A welcome precursor would be a test golem that corrupts or strips boons, removes conditions, and has stacks of boons to corrupt or strip. If Arenanet can get rid of the disparity between game modes, this game will definitely become a gold standard and the cost of balancing will decrease a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > Defiance is what makes balance between PvE and competitive play so difficult. Other than making end-game bosses equally hard on boons as they are on conditions, there are not many options to harmonize the game modes. > > A welcome precursor would be a test golem that corrupts or strips boons, removes conditions, and has stacks of boons to corrupt or strip. > > If Arenanet can get rid of the disparity between game modes, this game will definitely become a gold standard and the cost of balancing will decrease a lot. I think they already recognize that's not possible, hence their implementation of skill splits. Not much reason to remove disparity when they have a tool to address it already. There are probably lots of ways to make Necro a desirable class in PVE, if you adhere to the meta thinking. If you don't, you have already found it. I'm honestly of the opinion that Anet isn't going to go out of their way to do something special for Necro's PVE desirability; it simply legitimizes a way of thinking that is not inline with how the game gives people options to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > > Defiance is what makes balance between PvE and competitive play so difficult. Other than making end-game bosses equally hard on boons as they are on conditions, there are not many options to harmonize the game modes. > > > > A welcome precursor would be a test golem that corrupts or strips boons, removes conditions, and has stacks of boons to corrupt or strip. > > > > If Arenanet can get rid of the disparity between game modes, this game will definitely become a gold standard and the cost of balancing will decrease a lot. > > I think they already recognize that's not possible, hence their implementation of skill splits. Not much reason to remove disparity when they have a tool to address it already. > > There are probably lots of ways to make Necro a desirable class in PVE, if you adhere to the meta thinking. If you don't, you have already found it. I'm honestly of the opinion that Anet isn't going to go out of their way to do something special for Necro's PVE desirability; it simply legitimizes a way of thinking that is not inline with how the game gives people options to play it. Don't give up, loose hope, and spontaneously combust leaving a toxic Death Nova. That is the EleFeanoPrice way! Necromancers survive even in the harshest condi. Hope springs eternal, like minions who refuse to do what we expect them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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