3 more months at being at bottom of benchmark

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Casual and open world are crap players. Anet knows this because they constantly nerf the open world encounters (notice how pof has no champion level hero challenges when hot only had that level at release). There are no open world challenges as difficult as tripple trouble or teq at release. Chak garent was close, but it was nerfed into the ground. Serpents ire and boss blitz are great examples of how crap the average players are. Both have trivial encounters that suffer from in serpent ire case, not bringing the proper cc skills, or in blitz case not understanding that zerging the bosses scales their health so spamming 1 doesnt work.

Saying anet is "pushing" these player to harder content isn't true as long as every boss in the ls can be rez rushed, or easy zerged by bring more players into the instance, i am pretty sure there is no scaling to the mobs in the ls instances.

Again, the lower benchmarks mean nothing to the casual/open world player. These hurt players doing the top content which are a minority. Using efficiency numbers only 20% of players has unlocked fractal 100, a smaller percent do the cm regularly. Around 1% do raids regularly enough to have a decent amountt of LI. Now why balance for such a minority, because those are the only people it matter for. Open world it doesnt mater if you do 25% less, no one will notice when your in a 20 man zerg with random builds with bad rotations. In a 5 man cm where everyone is geared properly and doing proper rotations, it sure is noticeable. I for one am sick of necro = instant kick which is happening in fractal cms and raids, just like it is happened in dungeons at release.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> Casual and open world are crap players. Anet knows this because they constantly nerf the open world encounters (notice how pof has no champion level hero challenges when hot only had that level at release).

 

Again, this isn't about how 'good' a certain group of players is (and no, casual and OW players aren't just crap players because Anet changes the OW encounters .. that's just a ridiculous conclusion). It's about what core market this game serves ... and if the game is any indication, it ISN'T raid/T4 players. Maybe you don't want to hear it, but whatever Anet's strategy to balance is, it's certainly NOT centered around the instanced group content.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > Casual and open world are crap players. Anet knows this because they constantly nerf the open world encounters (notice how pof has no champion level hero challenges when hot only had that level at release).

>

> Again, this isn't about how 'good' a certain group of players is (and no, casual and OW players aren't just crap players because Anet changes the OW encounters .. that's just a ridiculous conclusion). It's about what core market this game serves ... and if the game is any indication, it ISN'T raid/T4 players. Maybe you don't want to hear it, but whatever Anet's strategy to balance is, it's certainly NOT centered around the instanced group content.

 

Then site some evidence, epi was nerfed because of instanced group content, theif dagger Auto chain was nerfed because of instanced group content, elementalist multihit AOE's were nerfed because of instanced group content, signet of inspiration was nerfed because instanced group content. Hell let just go way back in time, ferocity change was made because of dungeons, the first instanced group content.

Most balance changes are made because of spvp, followed by wvw, then raids (this used to be dungeons pre hot). It is never over casual or OW content. Give some examples to back up your claims, because you just look like a poe with the constant "balance is 4d chess game centered around casual/OW encounters" statements with nothing to back them up.

[Obtena.7952]

Let's get back to the point we were on ... Anet isn't balancing the game according to DPS meta performance, PERIOD. If they were, it would have been achieved AT LEAST for some classes or maybe even all classes on one build. That hasn't happened. The reason is probably really logical and based on business; Anet will clearly cater to their core market. I'm betting that the majority of people in that core market couldn't give a rat's ear about DPS performance balance across all classes since a) the game doesn't need it and b) it's only of interest for a fraction of people doing instanced group content.

 

If you want to debate something based on the premise that OW/casual players are crap players ... you're going to have to start a new thread. I'm not touching that field of ban fodder and warnings. If your assertion is that most balance changes are made for the competitive parts of the game ... then why did you even start this thread with the idea that Necro's rank at the bottom of the PVE DPS benchmark was of any importance anyways? You seem to ask questions you already know the answers to? You already come to the conclusion nothing will address that if you honestly think most balance is for WvW/PvP.

 

Furthermore, if that's truly the case in game ... you better brace yourselves for even MORE nerfs.

 

 

[Swamurabi.7890]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Let's get back to the point we were on ... Anet isn't balancing the game according to DPS meta performance, PERIOD. If they were, it would have been achieved AT LEAST for some classes or maybe even all classes on one build. That hasn't happened. The reason is probably really logical and based on business; Anet will clearly cater to their core market. I'm betting that the majority of people in that core market couldn't give a rat's ear about DPS performance balance across all classes since a) the game doesn't need it and b) it's only of interest for a fraction of people doing instanced group content.

>

> If you want to debate something based on the premise that OW/casual players are crap players ... you're going to have to start a new thread. I'm not touching that field of ban fodder and warnings.

>

>

 

GW2 doesn't have healers because of GW1 had too many groups posting "LFG healer". If there was a way to track how many times Necro classes were kicked from groups or even how many "LFG NO NECROS" were posted then it would be a reason for Anet to fix the issue.

[Obtena.7952]

First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

 

Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

 

I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

[Shadowmoon.7986]

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

8/9 have builds that do 31-34 DPS to small targets , DE is a outlier build, probably on borrowed time, it already it starting to receive nerfs to its damage, by next balance update it will probably be in the 31-34 range. Clearly keeping the classes on same level with dps IS A BIG DEAL for the balance team. Why was epi nerfed, because it allowed necros to do 40k+ dps. Why was ele multi hits nerfed, but it allowed 39k dps on large targets. Again, you are very willing to spout out claims without evidence.

And clearly they know necro doesn't do enough damage, why has Soul Spiral had it damage increased 90% over the last year. Why has every reaper power skill has had their damage increased by an average of 25% minus gravedigger, which really needs a rework. The claims of this thread is anet is not doing enough for necros to give them one viable dps build, like the other 8 classes. Again notice, I am citing evidence for what I am claiming.

And hate to break to you, but Anet balances for the SMALL minority of players, its called spvp. Then they might do a wvw/pve split, but those are only number tweaks, no mechanical changes. And then there are pve changes, which are for raiders, and even smaller %.

Also necro used to not be on the dead bottom of dps, so this it has always been this way for 6 year, is another unfounded claim.

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-may-balance-patch/

A year ago necro was middle of the pack with 33k, ele was the outliner, but again it is now fixed, like DE will be eventually. HOT was a very good expac for necro, it gave it a decent dps build, which was gutted to sell the scourge and pof. Necros needs trait reworks specifically in damage multipliers.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > Casual and open world are crap players. Anet knows this because they constantly nerf the open world encounters (notice how pof has no champion level hero challenges when hot only had that level at release).

>

> Again, this isn't about how 'good' a certain group of players is (and no, casual and OW players aren't just crap players because Anet changes the OW encounters .. that's just a ridiculous conclusion). It's about what core market this game serves ... and if the game is any indication, it ISN'T raid/T4 players. Maybe you don't want to hear it, but whatever Anet's strategy to balance is, it's certainly NOT centered around the instanced group content.

 

They are.

Alot of people complained about hot HP's being to hard. Now almost every hp is soloable without much effort. That's just a joke.

 

If anet doesn't care about instanced group content, they shouldn't have introduced it.

But even if only 1 or 2% of players do this content, they would loose a lot of people in total numbers not having these "gamemodes" anymore.

 

I totally agree with shadowmoon here. Open world players wouldn't notice a 3-4k DPS increase on golem.

And they are allowed to play anything they want. I could even play nomads thief and still do the same amount of dmg, all those other people do.

 

Crown pavillion is rlly the best example for this. I never managed to get gold event because people are just too bad. Either they scale boases, so they get almost unkillable or they just suck at doing dmg.

 

I played vipers scourge. Blood and curses.

8k DPS while rezzing all those downed players.

Another guy had 12/13k DPS. Rest of my group was below 4k.

If they played raid builds, even autoattacks get would result in more DPS than what they did. And i have to assume they did, because they died so fast, didn't dodge anything or dodged out of the blue when no attack was coming.

 

So yes most people do suck at the game.

 

So please, at least try to balance according to the people that do actually care, even if it's only 1% of game population

 

Edited.

 

Edit:

Let's say necro gets a 10% dmg buff. Those 4 k people wouldn't notice. It would only be 400dps more for them. But for raiders it would be way more. If they are at 15k DPS in real raid situation, this would be 1,5k more DPS which definetly is noticeable or on golem 28k right now with 10% buff = +2,8k DPS = ~31k DPS potential which would be on par with the other classes. A little bit lower than they are but that's ok as we can give barrier from time to time

[Aslakh.3072]

@Nimon.7840

"They are.

All of them complained about hot HP's being to hard. Now almost every hp is soloable without much effort. That's just a joke."

No they are not. Some complained it was too hard and it was made easier. Don't use absolutes because there are always people with differing opinions and claiming all open world players are bad simply hurts your argument. At least argue that the majority wouldn't notice because atleast that could be argued to be true.

[KrHome.1920]

HPs were nerfed for two reasons:

 

GW2 open world content should be soloable - especially the content that lets you specialize your class. This has been a major feature of the game since release. Only dungeons, world-bosses/map-events and raids are "real" group content.

 

With further content (living story and new addons) the old regions will become less populated. This results in finding a group to do the content becomes a pain in the a**. As a game designer you have to trivialize old content when you introduce new stuff because your core community will move on and you will lose new players that get frustrated as they can not progress on their own.

 

MMORPG basics...

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years.

That's quite a big assumption you make there ... it's almost in the line of: "of course there's no discrimination in the world, otherwise we would've done something about it ..." The employees of ANet are _just_ human beings, they're not machines that balance perfectly! They make mistakes! Just like the Necro's state in PvE at the moment _is_ a mistake. And, to be fairly honest, I don't like it, but I don't mind that much anymore either ... I slowly consider my Mesmer more and more often my main, anyway. She performs better in **every** gamemode, every role, every situation, every-_thing_ really! From better support to better damage, from _much_ better survivability (Mirage: evade, evade, EVADE!) to better CC. And the best thing is, the mesmer is here to stay. It will probably receive some minor nerfs in the future (LOL on the last SoI nerf), but they will never nerf it to the ground. And you know why, it's easy ... why would any company destroy their USP?!?! Shhh, don't tell anyone, but what do you think ANet is really balancing towards: I give you a hint: $$$

 

[Axl.8924]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

>

> Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

>

> I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

 

Its a big deal because one entire class is being kept from being able to compete.Even if you got some niche of folks who only do open world and wvw and stuff like that, people like me who actually look up stuff and wanted to do raids should have the option to do so.Lucky for me i got a good guild or i wouldn't, and thats not fair for all the players.I know life isn't fair, but this is something that can be fixed.

 

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> [...] As for the game being asocial in design? [...]

 

Sorry for shortening the quote, but I'd like to focus on this part, because I think that it's really important.

 

Let me show you how asocial Guild Wars 2 is by comparing its game design with other MMORPGs:

 

It all starts with basic gameplay:

 

* In traditional MMORPGs, you have regeneration times for HP and MP. While these can be annoying, they also give people time to chat with other people. In GW2 though, you're back to full life after disengaging, leaving you no time to chat with other people, if socializing isn't your current main-activity. In traditional MMORPGs, you mostly also have to team up with other people if you want to receive heals and/or boons from them. Boon- and healsharing for people outside of your party/squad is just ludicrous. It doesn't make sense since it disables one of the main-incentives for teaming up with other players.

 

* The strict gameplay doesn't force people to socialize. The pathetic aggro-system in raids is stupid as is the strict distribution of roles. There aren't any real diverse gameplay-options due to the lack of balance concerning support-builds in GW2 like having off-tanks or off-healers. Having a one-way-tab-targetting-system also limits the way you can design bosses. Just imagine what you could do if the tab-targetting in GW2 would go both ways and you could see which person the boss is targetting? You could implement mechanics that force people to use Voice-Chat 'cause they'd have to communicate in real time. The "fixated" mechanic is pretty lazy as is the toughness-based aggro-system.

 

 

There are other several other design-aspects too:

 

* The community is already fragmented into several game-modes which lack coherence. There's no real connection between game-modes. For a Generalist-MMORPG like GW2, that's dangerous. While "play what you want to get what you want" may be cool at first glance, it's catastrophic in the long term. You also have no real social hubs or events that force people to socialize. There should be a lot more meta-events like Triple Trouble with decent rewards. Besides having no social hubs, you also don't have a world-chat which you often have in games with a server-based architecture. That would lead to people knowing each other. Sadly, ArenaNet went for the lazy population-solution by implementing a megaserver-architecture, which fragments the already fragmented community even more. To make it worse, the LI/KP-system in raids even enhances this effect in the raid-"community". While in more traditional MMORPGs, you mostly have a healthy mix of newbies and veterans, the LI/KP-system messes hard with having such a healthy balance. All in all, you could argue that a) the game doesn't even have a sense of "community" to begin with and that b) the game simply isn't made to support sophisticated instanced content.

 

* To make it even worse: The reward-structures just suck. The daily system in fractals is still somewhat acceptable, but the weekly system in raids is pure garbage. Why would friends raid with me if they already have a static? They don't get anything out of repeating raids, especially since the MS-cap is so very low. Raiding multiple times per week can be a huge financial loss and that just sucks.

 

* You could at least expect to have a decent LFG-system and guild-browser in a still fairly young MMORPG, right? But nope, not with GW2. Fuck socialization. This game is too focused on the single-player-experience.

 

 

TL;DR: Several people just don't have the luxury of having a guild or a static they can do raids with due to the asocial game-design and need to rely on the LFG. These people still should be able to enjoy instanced PvE, yet - if they play Necro - chances are high that they can't. ArenaNet should fix this. (Maybe calling GW2 asocial is somewhat harsh, but it's at least designed in a way that makes the game rather unsocial.)

[Swamurabi.7890]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

>

> Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

>

> I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

 

You do remember that for the longest time Necros had 1/3 the HP in downstate than all other classes and someone pointed it out first the necromancer forums but it wasn't fixed until it was posted in the PvP forums, or would that fall into your "if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already" claim.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > Casual and open world are crap players. Anet knows this because they constantly nerf the open world encounters (notice how pof has no champion level hero challenges when hot only had that level at release).

>

> Again, this isn't about how 'good' a certain group of players is (and no, casual and OW players aren't just crap players because Anet changes the OW encounters .. that's just a ridiculous conclusion). It's about what core market this game serves ... and if the game is any indication, it ISN'T raid/T4 players. Maybe you don't want to hear it, but whatever Anet's strategy to balance is, it's certainly NOT centered around the instanced group content.

 

They created T4-fractals and raids and thus expanded their market. People who enjoy said content also paid for the game. They have the right that ArenaNet supports that kind of content, since ArenaNet makes money off of these people. In that regard, ArenaNet needs to balance the classes in a way that people won't get kicked out of parties just because of the class they play - especially since balancing is exponentially important in instanced PvE compared to open-world- and story-content. Even if these people are a minority (and they are a pretty big one at that), saying that that minority doesn't matter is just short-sighted. I have several friends that don't play the game very often anymore or quit just because they aren't able to play the class they love anymore. That is ArenaNets fault and ArenaNet has to fix it rather sooner than later.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > Casual and open world are crap players. Anet knows this because they constantly nerf the open world encounters (notice how pof has no champion level hero challenges when hot only had that level at release).

> >

> > Again, this isn't about how 'good' a certain group of players is (and no, casual and OW players aren't just crap players because Anet changes the OW encounters .. that's just a ridiculous conclusion). It's about what core market this game serves ... and if the game is any indication, it ISN'T raid/T4 players. Maybe you don't want to hear it, but whatever Anet's strategy to balance is, it's certainly NOT centered around the instanced group content.

>

> They created T4-fractals and raids and thus expanded their market.

 

And that market is still not the core or majority of who this game needs to appeal to to exist. The fact is that people that raid/T4 STILL get their due. yup, Anet offers that content ... and that content is still regulated by the skills of the class, just like any other aspect of the game. If you raid and you care about performance, you can make the right choices about what class and skills you use to get that performance ... just like players do for any other game mode. In otherwords, Raids/T4 content is not some special class of game mode with special players that requires special attention to how classes perform according to the players desires. If anything, individual class performance is the least critical in instanced group content because it's a team effort; what matters is the **aggregate** performance of the team.

 

> @"Swamurabi.7890" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

> >

> > Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

> >

> > I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

>

> You do remember that for the longest time Necros had 1/3 the HP in downstate than all other classes and someone pointed it out first the necromancer forums but it wasn't fixed until it was posted in the PvP forums, or would that fall into your "if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already" claim.

 

Sounds like a bug to me ... and it got fixed. How is bug fixes related to Necros in teams?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

> >

> > Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

> >

> > I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

>

> Its a big deal because one entire class is being kept from being able to compete.Even if you got some niche of folks who only do open world and wvw and stuff like that, people like me who actually look up stuff and wanted to do raids should have the option to do so.Lucky for me i got a good guild or i wouldn't, and thats not fair for all the players.I know life isn't fair, but this is something that can be fixed.

>

>

 

If it's a big deal, then you and others that it's a big deal for need to stop raiding with people that make it a problem in the first place. You have already figured out the solution to the problem that's existed in MMO's since they started ... you play with people that align with your own ideas of how to play. Making Necro 'competitive' with Meta-level DPS isn't a solution to the problem of "I'm not desirable in teams" because people already get teams. What are the people getting teams doing right that people not getting teams doing wrong? It's certainly not something related to the game mechanics.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > Casual and open world are crap players. Anet knows this because they constantly nerf the open world encounters (notice how pof has no champion level hero challenges when hot only had that level at release).

> > >

> > > Again, this isn't about how 'good' a certain group of players is (and no, casual and OW players aren't just crap players because Anet changes the OW encounters .. that's just a ridiculous conclusion). It's about what core market this game serves ... and if the game is any indication, it ISN'T raid/T4 players. Maybe you don't want to hear it, but whatever Anet's strategy to balance is, it's certainly NOT centered around the instanced group content.

> >

> > They created T4-fractals and raids and thus expanded their market.

>

> And that market is still not the core or majority of who this game needs to appeal to to exist. The fact is that people that raid/T4 STILL get their due.

 

That's simply not true. A person that want's to participate in fractals and raids while playing Necro won't get his due or at least not in the same extent.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > > Casual and open world are crap players. Anet knows this because they constantly nerf the open world encounters (notice how pof has no champion level hero challenges when hot only had that level at release).

> > > >

> > > > Again, this isn't about how 'good' a certain group of players is (and no, casual and OW players aren't just crap players because Anet changes the OW encounters .. that's just a ridiculous conclusion). It's about what core market this game serves ... and if the game is any indication, it ISN'T raid/T4 players. Maybe you don't want to hear it, but whatever Anet's strategy to balance is, it's certainly NOT centered around the instanced group content.

> > >

> > > They created T4-fractals and raids and thus expanded their market.

> >

> > And that market is still not the core or majority of who this game needs to appeal to to exist. The fact is that people that raid/T4 STILL get their due.

>

> That's simply not true. A person that want's to participate in fractals and raids while playing Necro won't get his due or at least not in the same extent.

>

>

 

It's true if you are smart about who you play with. You see, you and others have painted this picture about how necros are undesirable as some universal truth and no one can play one. The problem is that this picture is not universal; people DO raids with Necros. So clearly, there is some engineered inaccuracy in the way you and others are portraying the situation. It's in fact, only true for a subset of people; the subset that don't take consideration of who they play with. That's not an Anet problem.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > > > Casual and open world are crap players. Anet knows this because they constantly nerf the open world encounters (notice how pof has no champion level hero challenges when hot only had that level at release).

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, this isn't about how 'good' a certain group of players is (and no, casual and OW players aren't just crap players because Anet changes the OW encounters .. that's just a ridiculous conclusion). It's about what core market this game serves ... and if the game is any indication, it ISN'T raid/T4 players. Maybe you don't want to hear it, but whatever Anet's strategy to balance is, it's certainly NOT centered around the instanced group content.

> > > >

> > > > They created T4-fractals and raids and thus expanded their market.

> > >

> > > And that market is still not the core or majority of who this game needs to appeal to to exist. The fact is that people that raid/T4 STILL get their due.

> >

> > That's simply not true. A person that want's to participate in fractals and raids while playing Necro won't get his due or at least not in the same extent.

> >

> >

>

> It's true if you are smart about who you play with. You see, you and others have painted this picture about how necros are undesirable as some universal truth and no one can play one. The problem is that this picture is not universal; people DO raids with Necros. So clearly, there is some engineered inaccuracy in the way you and others are portraying the situation. It's in fact, only true for a subset of people; the subset that don't take consideration of who they play with. That's not an Anet problem.

 

True, there are people who don't care. I'll give you that much. But Necro is certainly the class that is being discriminated the most - and that's talking from personal experience. Like I already explained: the game is utterly unsocial, so a lot of people are dependent on PUGs. In that regard, ArenaNet has to design the game in a way in which each class is at least viable - Necro doesn't even has a subclass that gets beyond 29k DPS. While it is true that it's also a mindset-problem of the community, that mindset is shaped and reinforced by ArenaNets inability to balance the game properly.

[Obtena.7952]

Even if that's the case, people have choice. If they want to worship the meta AND take PUG groups, those are self-imposed restrictions ... and as we know, those are some SERIOUS restrictions. There is no basis for complaining that you 'choose' yourself out of playing how you want in teams that don't accept that philosophy. It's all about who you play with; Anet does not control that.

 

I always do this little experiment in my mind. I ask myself "Can I predict what meta will be if ..." I come to the conclusion that no matter what the scenario, I can't do it. It's not because I'm stupid. It's because of the complexity of the interactions between classes. The point here is that no one can predict what meta will be, so it's nonsense to continue pushing 'more DPS' as the solution to Necro being more Meta.

 

The problem is clearly illustrated in the statement you made "_Anet's inability to balance the game properly_". That's a POV that comes from someone that just doesn't understand that this game is designed so it doesn't need 'proper balance' for players to do things together and succeed. Personally I think some MMO players are not ready to embrace choosing classes for theme over performance EVEN when the importance of individual performance is minimized in the case of instanced, group content. That's just a player hang up; it's real, but it's not a reason for Anet to abandon their approach to the game.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

The meta is very predictable. A team will consist of a classes that provide 25 might, fury, alacrity, and quickness. They will be reduced down to the lowest number of member required to provide that. Because druid and chrono provide all that, and are tanks and healers, there will always be druids and chronos. Anet will have to remove one of those 4 things completely from the class to allow other Healers or tanks in.

Then it come down to if the boss has a specialty mechanic that must be done by a specialist class. Examples of this are deimos hand kiter, or dhumn messanger kiter. This could be boon removal, but chronos ALREADY DO THAT, and the meta will always try to condense support to the lowest number of classes.

Now that you have all the support you need, which is also rolled up in your tank and healers, your groups will be filled with dps. And the meta will always be the highest dps, either by direct dps like DE, or indirect dps in Warrior Banner Slaves, which multiply all the groups dps.

Honestly, I feel you don't do t4 or raid. Otherwise this would be very apparent. And again, your theory of this game isn't designed to need "proper balance" doesn't hold up with just glancing at the benchmarks. DPS is the most balanced it has ever been, minus two outliners, DE (a single Espec) is too high, and necro (the entire class) is too low.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> The meta is very predictable. A team will consist of a classes that provide 25 might, fury, alacrity, and quickness. They will be reduced down to the lowest number of member required to provide that. Because druid and chrono provide all that, and are tanks and healers, there will always be druids and chronos. Anet will have to remove one of those 4 things completely from the class to allow other Healers or tanks in.

 

That's not prediction ... that's analysis; You're starting with known paramaters and known parts to solve the problem. But it's funny you mention it because if it became irrelevant for a team to have certain tools that we are have been trained to expect, then no, you wouldn't be able to predict meta. I mean, if you can predict meta, what leads you to think a Necro DPS increase, even a modest one will get you a team in a PUG with Meta players? Honestly, how much DPS do you think you need before you can get META PUGs as a necro? I'm guessing LOTS, because getting in META PUGS isn't just about how much DPS you do as a class ... but of course your going to tell me you have this all 'predicted', so I'm not really revealing anything to you.

 

It's all moot anyways ... we already know Anet doesn't balance by Meta DPS standards because after 6 years, they should be closer (or their idea of what balance and 'close' is varies significantly from what players expect ... again, what I've been saying could be happening here). DPS is the most balanced it's ever been you say ... and you STILL can't get META PUG as a necro ... that sort of indicates to me that there is much more to getting META PUG group than a certain META DPS threshold.

 

> Then it come down to if the boss has a specialty mechanic that must be done by a specialist class. Examples of this are deimos hand kiter, or dhumn messanger kiter. This could be boon removal, but chronos ALREADY DO THAT, and the meta will always try to condense support to the lowest number of classes.

> Now that you have all the support you need, which is also rolled up in your tank and healers, your groups will be filled with dps. And the meta will always be the highest dps, either by direct dps like DE, or indirect dps in Warrior Banner Slaves, which multiply all the groups dps.

> Honestly, I feel you don't do t4 or raid. Otherwise this would be very apparent. And again, your theory of this game isn't designed to need "proper balance" doesn't hold up with just glancing at the benchmarks. DPS is the most balanced it has ever been, minus two outliners, DE (a single Espec) is too high, and necro (the entire class) is too low.

 

It's not that it's not apparent to me; I'm VERY aware of how poorly received Necro is in groups. It's not a theory the game is designed to not need 'proper balance' ... It's proven all the time when people play how they want without playing meta and succeeding in PVE content ... benchmarks are just the result of analyzing class tools with the goal to optimize play but Playing the meta build that gives benchmark results is NOT necessary to succeed. The game is designed (I believe specifically) so this will happen; the threshold for success is low enough that optimal play is unnecessary. Therefore, balancing to meta DPS standards is not needed.

 

 

 

[Dace.8173]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > [...] As for the game being asocial in design? [...]

>

> Sorry for shortening the quote, but I'd like to focus on this part, because I think that it's really important.

>

> Let me show you how asocial Guild Wars 2 is by comparing its game design with other MMORPGs:

>

> It all starts with basic gameplay:

>

> * In traditional MMORPGs, you have regeneration times for HP and MP. While these can be annoying, they also give people time to chat with other people. In GW2 though, you're back to full life after disengaging, leaving you no time to chat with other people, if socializing isn't your current main-activity. In traditional MMORPGs, you mostly also have to team up with other people if you want to receive heals and/or boons from them. Boon- and healsharing for people outside of your party/squad is just ludicrous. It doesn't make sense since it disables one of the main-incentives for teaming up with other players.

>

> * The strict gameplay doesn't force people to socialize. The pathetic aggro-system in raids is stupid as is the strict distribution of roles. There aren't any real diverse gameplay-options due to the lack of balance concerning support-builds in GW2 like having off-tanks or off-healers. Having a one-way-tab-targetting-system also limits the way you can design bosses. Just imagine what you could do if the tab-targetting in GW2 would go both ways and you could see which person the boss is targetting? You could implement mechanics that force people to use Voice-Chat 'cause they'd have to communicate in real time. The "fixated" mechanic is pretty lazy as is the toughness-based aggro-system.

>

>

> There are other several other design-aspects too:

>

> * The community is already fragmented into several game-modes which lack coherence. There's no real connection between game-modes. For a Generalist-MMORPG like GW2, that's dangerous. While "play what you want to get what you want" may be cool at first glance, it's catastrophic in the long term. You also have no real social hubs or events that force people to socialize. There should be a lot more meta-events like Triple Trouble with decent rewards. Besides having no social hubs, you also don't have a world-chat which you often have in games with a server-based architecture. That would lead to people knowing each other. Sadly, ArenaNet went for the lazy population-solution by implementing a megaserver-architecture, which fragments the already fragmented community even more. To make it worse, the LI/KP-system in raids even enhances this effect in the raid-"community". While in more traditional MMORPGs, you mostly have a healthy mix of newbies and veterans, the LI/KP-system messes hard with having such a healthy balance. All in all, you could argue that a) the game doesn't even have a sense of "community" to begin with and that b) the game simply isn't made to support sophisticated instanced content.

>

> * To make it even worse: The reward-structures just suck. The daily system in fractals is still somewhat acceptable, but the weekly system in raids is pure garbage. Why would friends raid with me if they already have a static? They don't get anything out of repeating raids, especially since the MS-cap is so very low. Raiding multiple times per week can be a huge financial loss and that just sucks.

>

> * You could at least expect to have a decent LFG-system and guild-browser in a still fairly young MMORPG, right? But nope, not with GW2. kitten socialization. This game is too focused on the single-player-experience.

>

>

> TL;DR: Several people just don't have the luxury of having a guild or a static they can do raids with due to the asocial game-design and need to rely on the LFG. These people still should be able to enjoy instanced PvE, yet - if they play Necro - chances are high that they can't. ArenaNet should fix this. (Maybe calling GW2 asocial is somewhat harsh, but it's at least designed in a way that makes the game rather unsocial.)

 

Yeah, no I just don't buy it. I'm not going to go point for point as I just don't see a reason to as I will clearly not convince you that you are mistaken. However, the game is extremely social. People don't have the luxury of having a guild? If you're not in a guild that's by choice. Every day I see advertisements for joining a guild. People are always out there recruiting for their guild. So anyone who wants to join a guild can find a guild to be a member of. Hell, I took a year long break from the game and came back with my old guild being gone or having been removed from them for leaving the game. I was in 5 new guilds within the first week. Of those 5 only one of them I intentionally sought out. Since then I have cycled through 3 to 4 additional guilds, leaving some and joining others. Focused on single player experience? You clearly are not playing the same game I play. The Guild Wars 2 I play is an extremely social experience. I don't know how you're getting an asocial experience but I would hardly consider asocial to be the general experience since people often times go out of their way to be social. From the folks who advertise their guilds for recruitment, the people who spend hours every day in the starting area teaching new gamers about the game, the folks who tag up as a commander and run groups of people through the meta events, the people who run bounty chains in PoF, and the folks who run HP and map trains in PoF and HoT. This is an extremely social game.

 

I'm going to leave it at that because if you see the game in a vastly different lens from how I experience the game. There is nothing I can say that would move you on the issue of the Necromancer if we don't even experience the same social aspect of the game.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Even if that's the case, people have choice. If they want to worship the meta AND take PUG groups, those are self-imposed restrictions ... and as we know, those are some SERIOUS restrictions. There is no basis for complaining that you 'choose' yourself out of playing how you want in teams that don't accept that philosophy. It's all about who you play with; Anet does not control that.

>

> I always do this little experiment in my mind. I ask myself "Can I predict what meta will be if ..." I come to the conclusion that no matter what the scenario, I can't do it. It's not because I'm stupid. It's because of the complexity of the interactions between classes. The point here is that no one can predict what meta will be, so it's nonsense to continue pushing 'more DPS' as the solution to Necro being more Meta.

>

> The problem is clearly illustrated in the statement you made "_Anet's inability to balance the game properly_". That's a POV that comes from someone that just doesn't understand that this game is designed so it doesn't need 'proper balance' for players to do things together and succeed. Personally I think some MMO players are not ready to embrace choosing classes for theme over performance EVEN when the importance of individual performance is minimized in the case of instanced, group content. That's just a player hang up; it's real, but it's not a reason for Anet to abandon their approach to the game.

 

The interesting thing about this whole argument of being excluded is that we have a thread full of people who claim no one wants to bring them along but not once have they decided to get together on their own and run through raids on their own, instead of relying on PUGing. Like seriously why doesn't anyone in this conversation just create their own groups from the people who all feel that Necromancer is unfairly discriminated against? What stops people from forming their own groups of like-minded people who feel Necromancer should be allowed to go on Raids? Nothing in this game requires you to form only groups with the people who want to exclude you. Why not form your own groups or own guilds from folks who believe that Necromancers should be allowed to do Raids and Fractals and Dungeons?

 

I know if I felt I was being discriminated against due to my preferred profession I would take a more proactive solution and create my own groups instead of waiting for ANet to change mechanics.