Early look at the new meta

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > A full clear all wing run could look like: start out with DE with vg, gor, sab, sloth, trio -> swap to mirage for mat -> swap to weaver for kc -> swap to DE for xera -> swap to mirage for cairn -> swap to DE for mo, sam, deimos, sh, statues, dhuum. Could rearrange the wings to eliminate one swap.

> >

> > If only something like this would apply to Chrono and Druid, but I guess those will remain constant on all bosses

>

> Hey, you can swap your druids for something else on River of Souls. Not that you have to, but you can.

 

Agreed.

 

Healing revenant is way superior to druid if people use the rush ahead tactic. Healing tempest will outperform druid for team and Desmina support by miles.

 

Same goes for Dhuum, use a healing tempest instead of a druid.

 

People not doing so are simply not utilizing the best class for the job.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > > A full clear all wing run could look like: start out with DE with vg, gor, sab, sloth, trio -> swap to mirage for mat -> swap to weaver for kc -> swap to DE for xera -> swap to mirage for cairn -> swap to DE for mo, sam, deimos, sh, statues, dhuum. Could rearrange the wings to eliminate one swap.

> > >

> > > If only something like this would apply to Chrono and Druid, but I guess those will remain constant on all bosses

> >

> > Hey, you can swap your druids for something else on River of Souls. Not that you have to, but you can.

>

> Agreed.

>

> Healing revenant is way superior to druid if people use the rush ahead tactic. Healing tempest will outperform druid for team and Desmina support by miles.

>

> Same goes for Dhuum, use a healing tempest instead of a druid.

>

> People not doing so are simply not utilizing the best class for the job.

 

Which means you swap Druid in 2 encounters out of 17. Such good "balance".

Now I wonder, how many encounters can you play without a Chrono

[Feanor.2358]

I was being sarcastic there, offering a change without any real meaning. Yeah, you can. Yeah, they will even outperform the druid. But they don't make any difference.

 

Fennec has a thread on reddit about healing rev and outlines the current drawbacks (tl;dr: firebrand mantras don't work with groups). Also it requires a very specific comp.

[Miellyn.6847]

Druid is not the problem. It never was. Chronomancer is just completely broken in everything it does. Why should I bring Revenant for alacrity and Firebrand for quickness when Chrono can do the same in one person but better (e.g MUCH higher range; Revenant 240, Mesmer 600)? Everything Tempest, Revenant, Engineer and Firebrand could bring is already covered by chronomancer but better and in one character (healing from tempest is not needed on any encounter, it's just overkill). So you bring the only support that actually brings something unique, that's the druid with mass entangle, spirits and spotter. Nerf druid more and you will just take the healing wells and replace druids with DPS soulbeasts for spirits or just another DPS slot. Chronomancer dictates the support meta as long as it exists in it's current state.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Fennec has a thread on reddit about healing rev and outlines the current drawbacks (tl;dr: firebrand mantras don't work with groups). Also it requires a very specific comp.

Now that explains a lot when I think of my experiment with the FB/ren combo in a raid. I wonder how many more hidden fuck-ups the class devs have produced.

 

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > hopefully deadeye will be hotfixed. such an easy no effort build shouldnt do this much dmg

> > >

> > > And how would you buff them to keep them relevant? Dps is all they offer. Single target dps which requires flanking. Either give it top level dps or it wont be in meta at all.

> >

> > I would not buff them at all, I could not care less about thieves staying relevant in any game mode. Stupid class

>

> And this is why ignoring part of the community is also quite important for devs.

 

Everyone got a minimum of 5 character slots, so not every class must be viable

[LadyKitty.6120]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > > > A full clear all wing run could look like: start out with DE with vg, gor, sab, sloth, trio -> swap to mirage for mat -> swap to weaver for kc -> swap to DE for xera -> swap to mirage for cairn -> swap to DE for mo, sam, deimos, sh, statues, dhuum. Could rearrange the wings to eliminate one swap.

> > > >

> > > > If only something like this would apply to Chrono and Druid, but I guess those will remain constant on all bosses

> > >

> > > Hey, you can swap your druids for something else on River of Souls. Not that you have to, but you can.

> >

> > Agreed.

> >

> > Healing revenant is way superior to druid if people use the rush ahead tactic. Healing tempest will outperform druid for team and Desmina support by miles.

> >

> > Same goes for Dhuum, use a healing tempest instead of a druid.

> >

> > People not doing so are simply not utilizing the best class for the job.

>

> Which means you swap Druid in 2 encounters out of 17. Such good "balance".

> Now I wonder, how many encounters can you play without a Chrono

 

 

 

Kitty's not 100% sure if you were charrcastic or not but...Any. Just takes a bit longer to get it done due to lower dps and might require others ways to deal with the stuff chrono's usually assigned to.

 

Meta deals the best DPS, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the safest comp to get a kill. If people wanted it safe, extra (non-druid) healer would increase the chance of success by 35ish% or more (excluding Gorseval if druids aren't bad enough to let half the squad get downed during rampage and if that's the case, it's useless to even try with them). Or 2nd druid (pugs always want 2 druids) can be replaced with some other healer (FB, engi, tempest, scourge or rev) with a bit of a dps loss for a lot better survivability since GotL druids are in the lower end when it comes to heal/def. boon output. Even DPS necro resses would help a good bit.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > hopefully deadeye will be hotfixed. such an easy no effort build shouldnt do this much dmg

> > > >

> > > > And how would you buff them to keep them relevant? Dps is all they offer. Single target dps which requires flanking. Either give it top level dps or it wont be in meta at all.

> > >

> > > I would not buff them at all, I could not care less about thieves staying relevant in any game mode. Stupid class

> >

> > And this is why ignoring part of the community is also quite important for devs.

>

> Everyone got a minimum of 5 character slots, so not every class must be viable

 

Maybe, but still your personal preferences about what class you like/not like should not be a basis for class balance.

 

"Don't buff X, because i feel this class is stupid" **is** an "argument" devs should completely ignore. Except for maybe a reason for complete overhaul of class mechanic if it turns out almost noone else likes it (but we're definitely not at this point with thief now).

[zealex.9410]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > hopefully deadeye will be hotfixed. such an easy no effort build shouldnt do this much dmg

> >

> > And how would you buff them to keep them relevant? Dps is all they offer. Single target dps which requires flanking. Either give it top level dps or it wont be in meta at all.

>

> I have no problem with Thief having top level dps.

>

> I do have a problem with this dps being achieved with almost only auto attacks. The current Deadeye dps is in no way justifiable compared to what other classes have to do in order to reach similar numbers. I'm not even going to get into Revenants with their 58 step rotation, that's blatant overkill.

>

 

Its funny how back when dps chrono with its 3 button rotation was practically the same u called out ppl for saying it shouldnt do nowhere near that dps.

 

 

But i agree, if thief is meant to be a top dps class then the rotation should reflect that. They did it with dps chrono back with the mesmer rework im sure they can pull it off with thief if they try.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > hopefully deadeye will be hotfixed. such an easy no effort build shouldnt do this much dmg

> > >

> > > And how would you buff them to keep them relevant? Dps is all they offer. Single target dps which requires flanking. Either give it top level dps or it wont be in meta at all.

> >

> > I have no problem with Thief having top level dps.

> >

> > I do have a problem with this dps being achieved with almost only auto attacks. The current Deadeye dps is in no way justifiable compared to what other classes have to do in order to reach similar numbers. I'm not even going to get into Revenants with their 58 step rotation, that's blatant overkill.

> >

>

> Its funny how back when dps chrono with its 3 button rotation was practically the same u called out ppl for saying it shouldnt do nowhere near that dps.

>

>

> But i agree, if thief is meant to be a top dps class then the rotation should reflect that. They did it with dps chrono back with the mesmer rework im sure they can pull it off with thief if they try.

 

You know zealex, I was about to dig up 1-2 year old threads to show you up with how anti mesmer you were back in the day and how out of this world your views were back then (and often now), but why bother.

 

Power chrono was never a thing, it was always power mesmer and even that was not top dps in the benchmarks as Deadeye is now.

 

I'm just happy Arenanet never even remotely went in any direction you ever suggested as far as balance goes, which speaks for its self.

[maxwelgm.4315]

Complexity of rotation should be rewarded with a pat on the back at most, not necessarily with high DPS. Elementalist is a powerful DPS class for more thematic reasons (it is the meteor-summoning spellcaster after all) than mechanical when GW was created. If the rotation is complex for you to reach high DPS that is coincidental and also says nothing about what effort other classes should do to reach high DPS. Demanding that the highest DPS rotation is necessarily a complex one like Weaver is such nonsense I can't even begin to fathom how people think this up. Why are you all not playing core engineer then? Furthermore, the main reason for people dying is due to failing mechanics, and from my average raiding experience, it is mostly the people straining themselves to perform rotations that cause such wipes. These folks would not be a drag and actually help us finish the encounters if they just took their simple Deadeye/Power Herald to play with so they could AA for a while and actually pay attention to others and to the environment, you know, learn the actual raid.

 

If you like playing piano to get your DPS off you can do that. If you want a simpler rotation that still performs exceptionally, you can still do that. If anything this last patch was the closest we ever had to "balance" and the DPS for everyone is closer than I ever recall it being. Finally, Deadeye requires flanking which is a no-no for most pugs AND Weaver's arcane build has insane cleave+burst, so in short time spans it doesn't even matter that the benchmark is lower.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> Complexity of rotation should be rewarded with a pat on the back at most, not necessarily with high DPS.

 

And then you end up with condi Engi being completely forgotten for months and months. Because it makes no sense to pick one. And even if you're a die-hard fan who genuinely enjoys the gameplay and doesn't mind underperforming, the peer pressure of not being accepted in groups at some point makes you switch. This isn't a single-player game.

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > Complexity of rotation should be rewarded with a pat on the back at most, not necessarily with high DPS.

>

> And then you end up with condi Engi being completely forgotten for months and months. Because it makes no sense to pick one. And even if you're a die-hard fan who genuinely enjoys the gameplay and doesn't mind underperforming, the peer pressure of not being accepted in groups at some point makes you switch. This isn't a single-player game.

 

Perhaps my post sounded too grumpy to get the point across, for which I apologize. Precisely because this isn't a single player game, the _group_ mentality has come to be (but I have no reason to believe it could have been otherwise) that optimizing DPS is the priority. It therefore simply _doesn't_ matter how complex (or not) your rotation is, as long as it is the one that clears encounters the fastest. Not only this means Weaver is still meta (its burst does not require positioning and it has enough cleave to ignore the existence of adds in many fights), it also means that there is _no reason_ whatsoever to complain about one or the other rotation being "too simple". It's just not a variable the community itself cares about, only individual players, so it's going to remain largely ignored. In another world completely, perhaps some vocal part of the community could have decided that playing difficult rotations would be as cool as low-manning encounters and so would push for that, but it just didn't happen and so this whole argument is a non-issue (specially for Anet themselves, thankfully).

[Feanor.2358]

> @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > > Complexity of rotation should be rewarded with a pat on the back at most, not necessarily with high DPS.

> >

> > And then you end up with condi Engi being completely forgotten for months and months. Because it makes no sense to pick one. And even if you're a die-hard fan who genuinely enjoys the gameplay and doesn't mind underperforming, the peer pressure of not being accepted in groups at some point makes you switch. This isn't a single-player game.

>

> Perhaps my post sounded too grumpy to get the point across, for which I apologize. Precisely because this isn't a single player game, the _group_ mentality has come to be (but I have no reason to believe it could have been otherwise) that optimizing DPS is the priority. It therefore simply _doesn't_ matter how complex (or not) your rotation is, as long as it is the one that clears encounters the fastest. Not only this means Weaver is still meta (its burst does not require positioning and it has enough cleave to ignore the existence of adds in many fights), it also means that there is _no reason_ whatsoever to complain about one or the other rotation being "too simple". It's just not a variable the community itself cares about, only individual players, so it's going to remain largely ignored. In another world completely, perhaps some vocal part of the community could have decided that playing difficult rotations would be as cool as low-manning encounters and so would push for that, but it just didn't happen and so this whole argument is a non-issue (specially for Anet themselves, thankfully).

 

Of course complexity matters. People have dps meters these days and they can easily see your performance. It doesn't matter if your build has 40k potential on golem when you're doing 12k on the boss. Then you get booted. This repeats for a while, then you switch to a simple build with 30k potential on golem and do 18k on the boss with it. Then you don't get booted. Dps optimization imposed by the community. It's not that community cares about complexity, it's that complexity affects the actual performance. Which the community does care about.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > hopefully deadeye will be hotfixed. such an easy no effort build shouldnt do this much dmg

> > > >

> > > > And how would you buff them to keep them relevant? Dps is all they offer. Single target dps which requires flanking. Either give it top level dps or it wont be in meta at all.

> > >

> > > I have no problem with Thief having top level dps.

> > >

> > > I do have a problem with this dps being achieved with almost only auto attacks. The current Deadeye dps is in no way justifiable compared to what other classes have to do in order to reach similar numbers. I'm not even going to get into Revenants with their 58 step rotation, that's blatant overkill.

> > >

> >

> > Its funny how back when dps chrono with its 3 button rotation was practically the same u called out ppl for saying it shouldnt do nowhere near that dps.

> >

> >

> > But i agree, if thief is meant to be a top dps class then the rotation should reflect that. They did it with dps chrono back with the mesmer rework im sure they can pull it off with thief if they try.

>

> You know zealex, I was about to dig up 1-2 year old threads to show you up with how anti mesmer you were back in the day and how out of this world your views were back then (and often now), but why bother.

>

> Power chrono was never a thing, it was always power mesmer and even that was not top dps in the benchmarks as Deadeye is now.

>

> I'm just happy Arenanet never even remotely went in any direction you ever suggested as far as balance goes, which speaks for its self.

 

Ah yes mb it was power mesmer. Im happy instead of leaving that build anet instead went aheqd and made a more complex build the actual dps chrono.

[Tenray.3175]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> It is literally auto attack and positioning. If you can't flank your damage goes down.

Considering the fact that you also use venom, signet, mark, bomb, dagger5 ... yes DE is only autoatking. Kappa.

Pretending that there are not similar builds using barely more buttons in meta is just so ignorant and shows your biased view on the meta.

Condi Mirage was at 48k with only autoatking. Haven't seen THAT many complaints back then.

 

Let's try to be more objective ... what else does thief has to offer:

-still no unique raid buff

-little to no utility that can be traded for BIG dps loss (not counting CC, that is another category for me)

-many players forget what thief really is: IT IS A DPS CLASS. You cannot support/heal as thief nor can you tank, so what do you want thief to do ?

-many players also forget that range>melee always. Being forced to move alot in a raid fight is always a big >>effective<< dps loss. As a ranged it is much easier to maintain the dps.

 

Druid/Chrono are represented in the meta since the start of the of the whole concept of raiding and noone questions why. Have you or anyone else ever thought about how broken these classes actually are that it is not possible to form a competetive composition without them. Think about that sentence maybe once.

Only because you got used to spamm druid/chrono every raid doesn't make them balanced.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tenray.3175" said:

> Let's try to be more objective ... what else does thief has to offer:

> -still no unique raid buff

> -little to no utility that can be traded for BIG dps loss (not counting CC, that is another category for me)

> -many players forget what thief really is: IT IS A DPS CLASS. You cannot support/heal as thief nor can you tank, so what do you want thief to do ?

 

So basically exactly like ele, but with 20% more damage.

 

> @"Tenray.3175" said:

> -many players also forget that range>melee always. Being forced to move alot in a raid fight is always a big >>effective<< dps loss. As a ranged it is much easier to maintain the dps.

 

Yeah, no. If you range, you don't stack. If you don't stack, you get no boons and your damage takes a jump off a cliff.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Tenray.3175" said:

> > Let's try to be more objective ... what else does thief has to offer:

> > -still no unique raid buff

> > -little to no utility that can be traded for BIG dps loss (not counting CC, that is another category for me)

> > -many players forget what thief really is: IT IS A DPS CLASS. You cannot support/heal as thief nor can you tank, so what do you want thief to do ?

>

> So basically exactly like ele, but with 20% more damage.

>

 

And 150% less AoE. So balanced.

Nice having this chat. You can maintain high dps while getting easy access to AoE thief can't. So a 20% difference should be expected.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Tenray.3175" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > It is literally auto attack and positioning. If you can't flank your damage goes down.

> Considering the fact that you also use venom, signet, mark, bomb, dagger5 ... yes DE is only autoatking. Kappa.

> Pretending that there are not similar builds using barely more buttons in meta is just so ignorant and shows your biased view on the meta.

> Condi Mirage was at 48k with only autoatking. Haven't seen THAT many complaints back then.

 

You mean besides literally every forum thread about balance being about Mirage, even now?

 

Pressing your 3 utility skills on cool down is not a rotation. Thanks for agreeing though, Mirage was toned down, so was power mesmer and multiple other classes (as I had pointed out too) so good you are agreeing on the fact that thief needs toning down.

 

> @"Tenray.3175" said:

>

> Let's try to be more objective ... what else does thief has to offer:

> -still no unique raid buff

> -little to no utility that can be traded for BIG dps loss (not counting CC, that is another category for me)

> -many players forget what thief really is: IT IS A DPS CLASS. You cannot support/heal as thief nor can you tank, so what do you want thief to do ?

 

How is any of this objective? You are literally listing things thief is not which are in no relation to damage.

No one is denying that thief is in a bad spot raid wise (or support wise). No one is denying thief a high damage rotation (go read what I wrote in this thread).

 

What people (at least myself) are complaining about is the way thief does his damage complexety wise. News flash: that's something different.

 

> @"Tenray.3175" said:

>

> Druid/Chrono are represented in the meta since the start of the of the whole concept of raiding and noone questions why. Have you or anyone else ever thought about how broken these classes actually are that it is not possible to form a competetive composition without them. Think about that sentence maybe once.

> Only because you got used to spamm druid/chrono every raid doesn't make them balanced.

 

Oh absolutely, chrono is in a god spot support wise currently. It gets questioned all the time and people are asking for balance over and over. Unfortunately you are once again deflecting by saying:"Oh but look at his toys, thief is not that bad." Two wrongs do not make a right. What was it about objectivity you were saying?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Tenray.3175" said:

> > > Let's try to be more objective ... what else does thief has to offer:

> > > -still no unique raid buff

> > > -little to no utility that can be traded for BIG dps loss (not counting CC, that is another category for me)

> > > -many players forget what thief really is: IT IS A DPS CLASS. You cannot support/heal as thief nor can you tank, so what do you want thief to do ?

> >

> > So basically exactly like ele, but with 20% more damage.

> >

>

> And 150% less AoE. So balanced.

> Nice having this chat. You can maintain high dps while getting easy access to AoE thief can't. So a 20% difference should be expected.

 

SC benchmarks don't agree with you. Thieves have the option to go DD, still maintain higher dps and get AOE.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Tenray.3175" said:

> > > > Let's try to be more objective ... what else does thief has to offer:

> > > > -still no unique raid buff

> > > > -little to no utility that can be traded for BIG dps loss (not counting CC, that is another category for me)

> > > > -many players forget what thief really is: IT IS A DPS CLASS. You cannot support/heal as thief nor can you tank, so what do you want thief to do ?

> > >

> > > So basically exactly like ele, but with 20% more damage.

> > >

> >

> > And 150% less AoE. So balanced.

> > Nice having this chat. You can maintain high dps while getting easy access to AoE thief can't. So a 20% difference should be expected.

>

> SC benchmarks don't agree with you. Thieves have the option to go DD, still maintain higher dps and get AOE.

 

Staff DD stil isnt clearing half the screen like meteor shower. Do you know that 3 weavers were optimal in fractals for the last balance patch and now still at least 2.

You just want to be top dps with no downsides everywhere. It's not gonna happen and i'm happy devs finally started to nerf this abomination.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Tenray.3175" said:

> > > > Let's try to be more objective ... what else does thief has to offer:

> > > > -still no unique raid buff

> > > > -little to no utility that can be traded for BIG dps loss (not counting CC, that is another category for me)

> > > > -many players forget what thief really is: IT IS A DPS CLASS. You cannot support/heal as thief nor can you tank, so what do you want thief to do ?

> > >

> > > So basically exactly like ele, but with 20% more damage.

> > >

> >

> > And 150% less AoE. So balanced.

> > Nice having this chat. You can maintain high dps while getting easy access to AoE thief can't. So a 20% difference should be expected.

>

> SC benchmarks don't agree with you. Thieves have the option to go DD, still maintain higher dps and get AOE.

 

TIL DD is secretly Goku and has a magic staff with 1200 range AoE.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Tenray.3175" said:

> > > > > Let's try to be more objective ... what else does thief has to offer:

> > > > > -still no unique raid buff

> > > > > -little to no utility that can be traded for BIG dps loss (not counting CC, that is another category for me)

> > > > > -many players forget what thief really is: IT IS A DPS CLASS. You cannot support/heal as thief nor can you tank, so what do you want thief to do ?

> > > >

> > > > So basically exactly like ele, but with 20% more damage.

> > > >

> > >

> > > And 150% less AoE. So balanced.

> > > Nice having this chat. You can maintain high dps while getting easy access to AoE thief can't. So a 20% difference should be expected.

> >

> > SC benchmarks don't agree with you. Thieves have the option to go DD, still maintain higher dps and get AOE.

>

> Staff DD stil isnt clearing half the screen like meteor shower. Do you know that 3 weavers were optimal in fractals for the last balance patch and now still at least 2.

> You just want to be top dps with no downsides everywhere. It's not gonna happen and i'm happy devs finally started to nerf this abomination.

 

No downsides? On a Weaver??? I'm done with this nonsense.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Tenray.3175" said:

> > > > > > Let's try to be more objective ... what else does thief has to offer:

> > > > > > -still no unique raid buff

> > > > > > -little to no utility that can be traded for BIG dps loss (not counting CC, that is another category for me)

> > > > > > -many players forget what thief really is: IT IS A DPS CLASS. You cannot support/heal as thief nor can you tank, so what do you want thief to do ?

> > > > >

> > > > > So basically exactly like ele, but with 20% more damage.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > And 150% less AoE. So balanced.

> > > > Nice having this chat. You can maintain high dps while getting easy access to AoE thief can't. So a 20% difference should be expected.

> > >

> > > SC benchmarks don't agree with you. Thieves have the option to go DD, still maintain higher dps and get AOE.

> >

> > Staff DD stil isnt clearing half the screen like meteor shower. Do you know that 3 weavers were optimal in fractals for the last balance patch and now still at least 2.

> > You just want to be top dps with no downsides everywhere. It's not gonna happen and i'm happy devs finally started to nerf this abomination.

>

> No downsides? On a Weaver??? I'm done with this nonsense.

 

List the downsides that are special to Weaver and not something every glass dps has. Hint: No boons and requires support isnt even true because weaver generates perma fury and some might.

[Feanor.2358]

There are no downsides. Weavers are immortal and kill everything on the map with their mere presence.