Mesmer has too many passive defenses.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

By your profile pic I'll deduct you're a warrior, one of the professions with more passives and defenses which makes the whole thread kind of funny and ironic, for that kudos to you dear sir!

[Apolo.5942]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> By your profile pic I'll deduct you're a warrior, one of the professions with more passives and defenses which makes the whole thread kind of funny and ironic, for that kudos to you dear sir!

 

Thats ok, i dont mind passive defensive in the game, but lest not BS around the fact that the mesmer has a metric ton of them.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

If you want passive you look at engi, warrior. Mesmer's defense is "active", not passive.

[Chasind.3128]

i mean, if anet will nerf what makes ele great (its dps) then they should nerf what makes mesmer great. its evades. nerf warrior too, take its fury away. Nerf ranger as well, and necro, and revenant and engi and thief-- oh wait

[Vieux P.1238]

> @"Apolo.5942" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > By your profile pic I'll deduct you're a warrior, one of the professions with more passives and defenses which makes the whole thread kind of funny and ironic, for that kudos to you dear sir!

>

> Thats ok, i dont mind passive defensive in the game, but lest not BS around the fact that the mesmer has a metric ton of them.

 

Could someone plzzzzz explain him for the 50th time what is a passive. The op's is not getting it.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > Wow I can't even. Ok anet go head. Nerf what he's asking for. But then make Chrono bunk viable again pls ???

>

> They cant nerf main mesmer mechanic . THey would have to delete class and offer us a new one. Doubt they want it :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

 

Gosh this is the dream, isn’t it?

[Arbalest.4506]

Here's the basic idea : if you think something is wrong but everyone else think otherwise. You may want to reconsider the real issue and see from others perspective.

One of reason why core mechanic stays is because most of us can deal with it.

Others who can't already leave the game years ago.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Apolo.5942" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Apolo.5942" said:

> > > Been recking on a Mesmer lately and i have realized that for all the complains about warrior, Mesmer has just as many if not MORE passive defenses.

> > >

> > > Why? Because all its defensive tools double as offensive tools as well, thus you dont really choose between the 2 or sacrifice one for the other.

> > >

> > > -You doge which creates a clone (you defensive mechanism) and triggers additional damage from your clones.

> > > -You do Axe 2 which inflicts a bunch of conditions AND creates a clone which again is your main defensive mechanism.

> > > -You Jaunt and Inflict Confusion.

> > > -You axe 3, reposition, set for shatter, make a mess of targeting and clones positioning, which again is your defensive mechanism and inflict a bunch of confusion.

> > > -Pistol 4 does a truckload of damage AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.

> > > -Scepter 1 inflicts torment AND creates a clone, you defensive mechanism.

> > >

> > > List goes on and on and on. And the problem is, these are not tactical choices, they simply happen when you go on the offensive. No other class, except Elementis has this overlap of offensive and defensive triggers.

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------ALL of the above heal you when they trigger.

> > >

> > > CLARIFIYING PASSIVE:

> > > In this game, passives, are things that get triggered while doing something else, and doing that something else might or might not be related to the purpose of the triggered passive. They are bonus things that happen while doing something else.

> > > An example often thrown around is ADRENAL HEALTH. This is a healing that gets triggered When you use your burst skills. You have to trigger burst skills any way to play the warrior class, and it is not the objective or main function of burst skills to give you Adrenal Health, it just happens.

> > > Same goes for this skills, they have an offensive function, but end up producing defensive tools as well.

> > >

> >

> > Alright I hope this will be very clear for you.

> >

> > Passive is something that triggers without player input e.g. Desperate Decoy (Cast Decoy when you fall under a health threshold)

> >

> > Every single thing you listed requires player input, meaning they are active, not passive. Clones are not a defensive mechanic, if anything they're an offensive resource that can be removed by other players. The healing on trigger is part of the Signet of the Ether as well which requires the active input of you using literally any of those skills you listed. People use the phantasm skills in order to deal damage _and_ summon clones because that's how they get to use their shatters, that's not passive in any form. If we go by your definition of passive any skill with more than one effect is passive because multiple things are happening. Oh wow you used Backbreaker, that's so passive because you also damaged me while knocking me down. See how ridiculous that sounds?

> >

> > In short, you're wrong and spreading misinformation on another poorly thought out crusade against Mesmer.

>

> No, that is short sighted and one of the many reasons mesmer is as op as it is.

>

> Mirror images is an active active clone generator, you use it and it creates 2 clones period end, and even then its debatable since its function is to be a stun breaker, furthering the trend that images just get passively spawned when the mesmer uses skill that have other purposes or would use any way.

 

Lol no, it's not short sighted, it's just not tailoring the narrative to fit the dumbest viewpoint this forum has ever seen. All extra clone generation Mesmer has aside from skills that are meant to generate clones and have been that way since vanilla either cost a trait slot or a utility slot. Sword 3, Scepters 1&2, Staff 2, GS 2, all phantasm skills to an extent since they essentially used to just be shiny clones with an attack every so often are meant to fuel the Mesmers main class mechanic which is shatters. Every single one of these is an active skill, the clones don't just pop up without the player doing anything. Clones are barely defensive unless you're one of about 5 people still in the game that don't realize the real Mesmer is the one actually doing something.

 

Please list a single skill that only breaks stun and does absolutely nothing else. Mirror Images still requires player input whether it's to spawn 2 clones for an offensive attack or to use as a stun break. But again, you still don't understand the concept of passive so I doubt you'll get it because as seen here it is obvious that you are the short sighted one who has come to forum believing that you have a feasible perspective. You do not.

 

Basically by your logic any time a Warrior gains adrenaline from attacking that's passive. Any time a Necromancer gains life force from a skill they used, Scepter 3 for example, that's a passive. Any time a Ranger uses a weapon skill that enhances pet attacks temporarily, that's passive. Also using Burst skills is a poor basis for your logic since that's almost the only class of skills designed to only do damage and nothing else, hence they are the outlier.

[phokus.8934]

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > @"Apolo.5942" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > By your profile pic I'll deduct you're a warrior, one of the professions with more passives and defenses which makes the whole thread kind of funny and ironic, for that kudos to you dear sir!

> >

> > Thats ok, i dont mind passive defensive in the game, but lest not BS around the fact that the mesmer has a metric ton of them.

>

> Could someone plzzzzz explain him for the 50th time what is a passive. The op's is not getting it.

 

You can't explain logic to someone who doesn't want to face reality. They live in a bubble with blinders on because of ignorance and for that, there's no getting through to them.

[Obtena.7952]

Correct me if I'm wrong but ... Anet INTENDS for a mesmer to generate all those clones, defensive or not, passive or not. If they didn't, you wouldn't get them (and they would have changed it with the phantasm to clone change that happened a few months ago)

 

So it's really a non-starter to suggest nerfing clone generation from where I sit. It's not even worth considering; it seems like anyone suggesting such a thing doesn't understand the class to begin with. Anet WANTS people to generate and use clones; it makes no sense to do anything like what I see being suggested.

[DragonSlayer.1087]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > Wow I can't even. Ok anet go head. Nerf what he's asking for. But then make Chrono bunk viable again pls ???

>

> They cant nerf main mesmer mechanic . THey would have to delete class and offer us a new one. Doubt they want it :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

 

They're slowly getting there. Most of the nerfs lately has been on core mesmer traits.

[Apolo.5942]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Correct me if I'm wrong but ... Anet INTENDS for a mesmer to generate all those clones, defensive or not, passive or not. If they didn't, you wouldn't get them (and they would have changed it with the phantasm to clone change that happened a few months ago)

>

> So it's really a non-starter to suggest nerfing clone generation from where I sit. It's not even worth considering; it seems like anyone suggesting such a thing doesn't understand the class to begin with. Anet WANTS people to generate and use clones; it makes no sense to do anything like what I see being suggested.

 

Just because Anet wants it, does not automatically make it a good idea. Mesmer has been a problem child since day 1.

[Swagg.9236]

Everything has too many passive defenses. However, remove them, and everybody dies in under 1 second to skills that instantly engage onto selected targets from at or beyond max range. This game is such a mess; it's just a joke at this point.

[Vague Memory.2817]

It's clear the OP doesn't know much about Mes in general or what passive and defence means. I think what he is saying is Mes produces clones and Phants and they confuse the hell out of him because he doesn't know which is the real one. Most players who have played PvP for a while can identify the actual player straight off the bat, even knowing when the player is in stealth leaving only clones/phants visible.

[Swagg.9236]

> @"Vague Memory.2817" said:

> It's clear the OP doesn't know much about Mes in general or what passive and defence means. I think what he is saying is Mes produces clones and Phants and they confuse the hell out of him because he doesn't know which is the real one. Most players who have played PvP for a while can identify the actual player straight off the bat, even knowing when the player is in stealth leaving only clones/phants visible.

 

Just because anyone can identify the player doesn't mean that anyone can do anything about what that player is doing. That's the biggest joke about GW2: you can see everything coming--everything in GW2 is so brutally predictable--but if it's at the outset of a fight and everyone has all their buttons ready for pressing, odds are that during the first 10 seconds of a fight (in which anyone could die in under 2 seconds if they don't bring all the meta memes with them), nobody is going to be able to stop an attacker because of all of the passive damage negation, scripted movement and effect negation that will be blanketing every actor on the field. Fight openers between meta builds in GW2 are more like patty-cake than anything else because everybody knows that everyone is going to be immune to everyone's effects for the first portion of a fight. It just comes down to the next cycle of cooldowns--when only some of the buttons can be pressed--that players start to die to rock-paper-scissors encounters.

 

And, honestly, if you are able to act or inflict effects while under a cloak of a impunity (i.e. mirage dodge, chrono blocks and CD resets, distortion, blurred frenzy, stealth in general, AI forcing an opponent to take evasive maneuvers while you just walk to a better position or keep your distance all while continuing to attack, letting DoTs do the heavy lifting while you play passive and engage as little as possible; and all of this is JUST for mesmer alone), it's effectively a "passive effect." There is no active maintenance on most of these duration-based effects. You pop them off (often instantly) and then continue acting as if nothing had happened; you're just now invulnerable on some level. It's horrifically passive.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Apolo.5942" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Correct me if I'm wrong but ... Anet INTENDS for a mesmer to generate all those clones, defensive or not, passive or not. If they didn't, you wouldn't get them (and they would have changed it with the phantasm to clone change that happened a few months ago)

> >

> > So it's really a non-starter to suggest nerfing clone generation from where I sit. It's not even worth considering; it seems like anyone suggesting such a thing doesn't understand the class to begin with. Anet WANTS people to generate and use clones; it makes no sense to do anything like what I see being suggested.

>

> Just because Anet wants it, does not automatically make it a good idea. Mesmer has been a problem child since day 1.

 

You have convinced yourself being 'good' or 'bad' is somehow what matters. It is not. It's simply a function of what Anet wants. If they want it, they make it happen, whether it's good or bad ... and we have lots of examples of this.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

 

> And, honestly, if you are able to act or inflict effects while under a cloak of a impunity (i.e. mirage dodge, chrono blocks and CD resets, distortion, blurred frenzy, stealth in general, AI forcing an opponent to take evasive maneuvers while you just walk to a better position or keep your distance all while continuing to attack, letting DoTs do the heavy lifting while you play passive and engage as little as possible; and all of this is JUST for mesmer alone), it's effectively a "passive effect." There is no active maintenance on most of these duration-based effects. You pop them off (often instantly) and then continue acting as if nothing had happened; you're just now invulnerable on some level. It's horrifically passive.

 

It's like the brick wall is multiplying.

 

Mirage dodge is an active skill, requiring you to dodge. It is an action that must be taken. **Can you explain how to get mirage cloak doing absolutely nothing?**

 

Assuming you are talking about reliable blocks because lol signet blocks are irrelevant (and coincidentally, one of the only examples in this thread of a mesmer passive effect that would be relevent in some way) it requires an activation. It is an active skill. **Can you explain how mesmer can get a relevant block doing absolutely nothing?**

 

Blurred Frenzy is a stationary 1s evasion that requires an activation, or an active skill. **Can you explain how blurred frenzy can be activated without a key press?**

 

AI forcing you to take evasive manuevers? You mean the phantasm summon which is a damaging skill, that is also an active key press? (Honestly I shouldn't even justify this part with a response because it is actually poor argument. It's like saying only mesmer has skills that force you to evade, and this isn't even getting in to the fact you could randomly kill the phantasm or clones before they execute their intended function) **Can you explain how you summon a phantasm doing nothing?**

Did you mean conditions? The conditions that require you to activate skills in order to do damage (I am aware of runes adding conditions on X requirement, though I intentionally disregard those as the damage they put out is not enough to kill you alone) **Can you explain how you are able to load conditions on someone without doing anything?**

Did you mean the CD reset that takes up a utility slot that isn't used in almost any meta build? But ALSO requires you to activate the skill to get the effect.

**Can you explain how you are able to fully reset your CD's doing nothing?**

 

It's like you want this narrative of passive to stick (even when proven wrong on multiple fronts, like, you know, the very core interaction of this game)

I would love explanations as to how in this game you are getting these interaction on a mesmer while doing nothing. Because that's what passive means in this game and has since pre-release.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> There is no active maintenance on most of these duration-based effects. You pop them off (often instantly) and then continue acting as if nothing had happened; you're just now invulnerable on some level. It's horrifically passive.

 

Yeah no.

1. If you want even more actions per second, you're better off playing arcade fighting games (though even those are liable to suffer from the network lag because of their fast pace). GW 2 is already faster than most other MMO games.

2. Just like in fighting games, most skills in GW 2 have their own duration, a certain number of animation frames and a (potentially cancellable) aftercast, as well as additional effects like getting rooted in place or repositioning yourself. Just like in fighting games, some skills in GW 2 can grant you some invulnerability/unblockable frames.

3. The system on the whole isn't passive at all, it just has the slower pace than those certain other games. Yes, mesmers can get a whole second of evade frames with their sword 2, but it's a second for you to spend elsewhere: reposition yourself, damage other targets, heal yourself.

[Hot Boy.7138]

My definition of passive are skills traits that auto activate without any input from user.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> My definition of passive are skills traits that auto activate without any input from user.

 

that's been the definition of passive in this game since 2012

[ScottBroChill.3254]

I agree they have too many tools to avoid damage that also apply a lot of damage. They have the best of both worlds. And I would like to note I understand what you mean by passive defense. Basically they get too many i-frames with their dps. You can decide to use those actively for defense, or just get them passively when going for dps.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> I agree they have too many tools to avoid damage that also apply a lot of damage. They have the best of both worlds. And I would like to note I understand what you mean by passive defense. Basically they get too many i-frames with their dps. You can decide to use those actively for defense, or just get them passively when going for dps.

 

Skills on Mesmer that damage while evading and/or blocking:

Illusionary Riposte

Blurred Frenzy

Illusionary Counter

Exclusive to Chronomancer:

Echo of Memory

Exclusive to Mirage:

Mirage Cloak/Ambush attacks

 

That is not too many. Some classes have more than Mesmer does and also have the choice to use them for dps or defense. Poor argument is poor. I'm also going to note that 2 of the 3 core mesmer ones are both counterattack skills so you deserve it if you get hit by them.

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

Agree with the OP.

Mesmer needs more nerfs.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> My definition of passive are skills traits that auto activate without any input from user.

 

Ironically, my definition of passive is enhancements that work always, at all times, unconditionally. "Retaliation now uses condition damage instead of power" is a passive. "+150 precision aura while in combat" is a passive. "+25% movement speed" is a passive.

Conditional auto-processed skills can be used tactically and allow for more different playstyles, so in my opinion there's little wrong with them.

[Swagg.9236]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Swagg.9236" said:

>

> > And, honestly, if you are able to act or inflict effects while under a cloak of a impunity (i.e. mirage dodge, chrono blocks and CD resets, distortion, blurred frenzy, stealth in general, AI forcing an opponent to take evasive maneuvers while you just walk to a better position or keep your distance all while continuing to attack, letting DoTs do the heavy lifting while you play passive and engage as little as possible; and all of this is JUST for mesmer alone), it's effectively a "passive effect." There is no active maintenance on most of these duration-based effects. You pop them off (often instantly) and then continue acting as if nothing had happened; you're just now invulnerable on some level. It's horrifically passive.

>

> It's like the brick wall is multiplying.

>

> Mirage dodge is an active skill, requiring you to dodge. It is an action that must be taken. **Can you explain how to get mirage cloak doing absolutely nothing?**

>

> Assuming you are talking about reliable blocks because lol signet blocks are irrelevant (and coincidentally, one of the only examples in this thread of a mesmer passive effect that would be relevent in some way) it requires an activation. It is an active skill. **Can you explain how mesmer can get a relevant block doing absolutely nothing?**

>

> Blurred Frenzy is a stationary 1s evasion that requires an activation, or an active skill. **Can you explain how blurred frenzy can be activated without a key press?**

>

> AI forcing you to take evasive manuevers? You mean the phantasm summon which is a damaging skill, that is also an active key press? (Honestly I shouldn't even justify this part with a response because it is actually poor argument. It's like saying only mesmer has skills that force you to evade, and this isn't even getting in to the fact you could randomly kill the phantasm or clones before they execute their intended function) **Can you explain how you summon a phantasm doing nothing?**

> Did you mean conditions? The conditions that require you to activate skills in order to do damage (I am aware of runes adding conditions on X requirement, though I intentionally disregard those as the damage they put out is not enough to kill you alone) **Can you explain how you are able to load conditions on someone without doing anything?**

> Did you mean the CD reset that takes up a utility slot that isn't used in almost any meta build? But ALSO requires you to activate the skill to get the effect.

> **Can you explain how you are able to fully reset your CD's doing nothing?**

>

> It's like you want this narrative of passive to stick (even when proven wrong on multiple fronts, like, you know, the very core interaction of this game)

> I would love explanations as to how in this game you are getting these interaction on a mesmer while doing nothing. Because that's what passive means in this game and has since pre-release.

 

Time invested for a period of invulnerability or a CD reset or a block chain: 0

Given that they all have durations that infinitely exceed their cast-times, it's very, very easy to overlap them into an extended cloak of invincibility while still retaining near full control of one's actions. Given that one casts a phantasm skill (something that has an actual cast-time) at the safest position possible (and sometimes from stealth outright), means that its long-term effect is going to independently overlap with whatever else you are going to do. The skill activation is initiated by the player, yes, but the fact that most of them are instant or near-instant while still granting invincibility periods that are nearly full seconds or multiple seconds, it's easy to just do whatever one wants with total impunity. At that point, it might as well be a passive effect. There is no risk or real effort in using them, so they're basically passive. I don't know why you think that pressing a whole bunch of buttons which grant invulnerability for free really entitles anyone to think that they're committing to active risk.

 

Nobody engages unless one has all of the low effort buttons up. And even when one engages, it's only for as long as the low effort buttons sustain the user's impunity of action. It's a huge joke that really can't qualify as anything active since there is no risk to the user. They aren't automatic, but they're so effortless to use that they encourage an overall very passive style of gameplay which revolves around arbitrary timer countdowns rather than self-risk, spacing, aim or raw movement.