WvW Arrow Cart Nerfing

[Etheri.5406]

These changes are great and a clear step in the right direction. It helps against population and coverage inbalance through PPT and natural map progression. It also prevents the constant stalemate that was even fights on upgraded maps by making it possible to push objectives without outnumbering the enemy.

 

Is it possible to adress PPT strength and upgrade speed of red (desert) bl compared to alpine next? Upgrading speed of red bl is far higher than that of the alpines, mostly due to the distance between NC and garri. The same is true for both north towers, which receive dollies from two rather than one camp. Upgrading a north tower to t3 on alpine maps takes hours compared to those on desert.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I love this entitled, bully mentality of, "If you aren't big enough to defend it, you shouldn't have it!". Just like the school bully that walks down the hallway picking on whomever they feel like. "Hey kid, I'm gonna beat you up if you don't give me that jacket. You don't deserve it because you can't defend yourself against me.". Ever hear about the story of David vs. Goliath? Ever root for an underdog in a sports game? You are the problem if all you say is, "If you can't have enough people to play then you don't deserve to be where you are and maybe you should drop down to where you belong.". I'm sorry, but people worked hard to get where they are and to tell them they don't deserve it is belittling and demeaning. Get over yourself. There is more than one way to play this game, not just your way.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > They're not underdogs they're bad players abusing a broken tool to win fights they would otherwise lose. They don't deserve their stuff if they can't defend it legit and we will see who these people are more clearly if anet continues to tone down siege because they will not be able to abuse arrow carts to win fights anymore.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I can fully agree with you on this. Especially as it relates to SMC gates.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Here is my biggest issue with nerfing AC damage vs seige (which is my ONLY issue with it)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I have yet been able to find a tower that I can't hit with a cata that I can't hit it from out of range of both ballistas and ACs.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > And the wall will drop just as fast.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > With the exception of Counter trebs or catas and/or mortars, the opposing team has to come out to either disable or fight on My catas.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I wish they had made iron hide more effective vs ACs rather than hit the ACs this hard.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Placing catas against the wall is NOW good strategy, but was, prior to the change, a dumb masses idea...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > True it's always an option to use trebs to open walls. It takes a lot of supply and a lot of time but it can be done, no doubt about it. As you said they're vulnerable to mortars and counter trebs but yeah it's doable. At some point you gotta actually push into the objective though and then you're in AC range. In some objectives, such at Hills you're basically in AC range everywhere you can stand and in all others you're in AC range once you start fighting over the lord.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What? Lol do they not clear siege once outer is broken and then again once inner is broken, in NA? Just straight to the lord John Rambo style?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There are build spots that can be flash built in 15 seconds so even if you clear all the siege going in it's pretty easy to rebuild it once the attackers are in lords room. In Bay for instance it's possible to flash build arrow carts on the outside landing that hit the lords room.

> > > > >

> > > > > I understand that but there should be part of the squad securing the perimeter and backline while another portion takes down the lord.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > That's a different problem you asked me if we clear siege on NA.

> > >

> > > Hmm dang you just gave him a clue to something they never thought about.

> >

> > He's just trying move the goalposts to win an internet argument. He asked me one question and then asked me a completely different question when he didn't get the answer he wanted to the first question.

>

> Actually, no I wasn't. It's surprising though tbh I thought it was just a common thing to do. Your answers says alot though.

 

Classic moving goalpost tactics but whatever.

 

It's common practice to try to clear siege on the way in although that isn't always easy if you're actually fighting a blob to get through outer and then again to get through inner because keeps can hold over a thousand supply so it's pretty easy to quickly rebuild anything that's taken down. I'm not even sure what you mean by "having part of the squad securing the perimeter and backline" or why you think that would prevent a 50 man defensive blob from flash building arrow carts in any objective in the game. In bay what happens is they close inner build acs to fire into lords and then push lords with a blob plus ac fire. Moreover I never saw a single group on eu do this on either side in any objective the entire time I was on eu. Eu in general didn't really seem to understand the siege game though I've been told there are some servers that do but I guess I didn't get to face them.

[Evolute.6239]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> These changes are great and a clear step in the right direction. It helps against population and coverage inbalance through PPT and natural map progression. It also prevents the constant stalemate that was even fights on upgraded maps by making it possible to push objectives without outnumbering the enemy.

>

> Is it possible to adress PPT strength and upgrade speed of red (desert) bl compared to alpine next? Upgrading speed of red bl is far higher than that of the alpines, mostly due to the distance between NC and garri. The same is true for both north towers, which receive dollies from two rather than one camp. Upgrading a north tower to t3 on alpine maps takes hours compared to those on desert.

 

At the same time, keeping the towers on red BL is absurdly hard compared to keeping the towers on alpine. You can quite literally glide into the towers on alpine from spawn and once it's t3, it's incredibly hard to take it. In comparison, it's a joke to take red BL towers, because small groups can attack at like 7 different angles at any one time since the towers themselves are a lot bigger.

[Trajan.4953]

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > I love this entitled, bully mentality of, "If you aren't big enough to defend it, you shouldn't have it!". Just like the school bully that walks down the hallway picking on whomever they feel like. "Hey kid, I'm gonna beat you up if you don't give me that jacket. You don't deserve it because you can't defend yourself against me.". Ever hear about the story of David vs. Goliath? Ever root for an underdog in a sports game? You are the problem if all you say is, "If you can't have enough people to play then you don't deserve to be where you are and maybe you should drop down to where you belong.". I'm sorry, but people worked hard to get where they are and to tell them they don't deserve it is belittling and demeaning. Get over yourself. There is more than one way to play this game, not just your way.

>

> Oh my God. This is an asymmetrical game of warfare, not the play yard of a nurturing learning institution.

 

Hehehehe

[aspirine.6852]

So far this nerf in EU has a result of more PPT. The zelf proclaimed fighting servers are capping like their lives depend on it.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Oh my God. This is a Game, not actual warfare. It's supposed to be fun and entertaining. It's not like you are going to lose your house, job, or money if you lose. Why so serious? Why is it so difficult for people to understand that there are more than one way to play a game? Why do they have to get all angry and hurt if somebody else doesn't want to play the game the way they want to play it? Why do they have to be so rude to other people and belittle them? Just because it isn't a nurturing learning institution doesn't mean you can be a bully to other people playing a game that they want to enjoy, have fun, and relax from a long stressful day.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Oh my God. This is a Game, not actual warfare. It's supposed to be fun and entertaining. It's not like you are going to lose your house, job, or money if you lose. Why so serious? Why is it so difficult for people to understand that there are more than one way to play a game? Why do they have to get all angry and hurt if somebody else doesn't want to play the game the way they want to play it? Why do they have to be so rude to other people and belittle them? Just because it isn't a nurturing learning institution doesn't mean you can be a bully to other people playing a game that they want to enjoy, have fun, and relax from a long stressful day.

 

Your first post here was calling everyone who enjoys fights bullies and comparing us to kindergarten.

 

You ask to be able to defend any structure regardless of how outnumbered or how unfair the fight is unless we play your game - pure siege wars - for several hours straight per upgraded objective despite it's negative effects on population balance without providing a single good argument for it.

 

You're very welcome to come home and relax from a stressful day. Imagine, I come home from my long and stressful day at work and decide I'll tag up. The enemies instantly run because I have a group of good players capable of killing them, so I start to PPT to go up in tiers and get stronger enemies. I get shot by ACs for the next 3 hours. None of my players are having fun. I log off frustrated, because despite wanting to have fun in the game I didn't get a single fight all evening. I also didn't get to PPT enough to make up for the 5 defenders recapping everything the moment we log off.

So I voice my concerns. I get told in this thread that "I expect too much" and "they should be able to defend" despite the fact that I have better players, more players, more organisation and am still fighting at a disadvantage, even now. I get told that I'm a bully, mean, and that this is a game for fun.

 

Somehow I'm preventing other players from having fun. Keep in mind we're not deleting acs, or structures. In fact I'm literally capping them - nobody who only does gvg or no structures cares about these changes. Somehow I'm a bully and stopping you from having fun by saying it's not good to let 5 players defend against large groups. To have siege be able to stop player interaction and almost all fun.

 

This is a game. You don't lose your house when I take your keep. It's not the end of the world. Stop being bullies by building ACs in whatever you want to stop other players from getting it, and play the game for fun! It's OK when you die; you won't die in real life. Trust me; I've gotten shot by tenthousands of arrows and I'm alive. I checked.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> So far this nerf in EU has a result of more PPT. The zelf proclaimed fighting servers are capping like their lives depend on it.

 

It's almost like nerfing siege which equals non-interactive gameplay promotes interactive gameplay, like actively attacking and defending. Who'd have thought?!

[Israel.7056]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Oh my God. This is a Game, not actual warfare. It's supposed to be fun and entertaining. It's not like you are going to lose your house, job, or money if you lose. Why so serious? Why is it so difficult for people to understand that there are more than one way to play a game? Why do they have to get all angry and hurt if somebody else doesn't want to play the game the way they want to play it? Why do they have to be so rude to other people and belittle them? Just because it isn't a nurturing learning institution doesn't mean you can be a bully to other people playing a game that they want to enjoy, have fun, and relax from a long stressful day.

 

Pretty melodramatic. Lol at "bullying" PvP might not be for you.

[steki.1478]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> I've gotten shot by tenthousands of arrows and I'm alive. I checked.

 

Ranger new meta confirmed?

 

[Chaba.5410]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Oh my God. This is a Game, not actual warfare. It's supposed to be fun and entertaining. It's not like you are going to lose your house, job, or money if you lose. Why so serious?

 

YES! *A GAME* of warfare, not actual warfare! And not where you make serious analogies to school yard bullies and how the losers of the game "deserve" something. That's just not how games work. Do you also make demands of the owner of Park Place to let you keep your poor properties like Connecticut Ave to avoid paying rent when you are out of cash because of how hard you worked on buying and developing them in a game of Monopoly?

 

[Balthazzarr.1349]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

 

> You're very welcome to come home and relax from a stressful day. Imagine, I come home from my long and stressful day at work and decide I'll tag up. The enemies instantly run because I have a group of good players capable of killing them, so I start to PPT to go up in tiers and get stronger enemies. I get shot by ACs for the next 3 hours. None of my players are having fun. I log off frustrated, because despite wanting to have fun in the game I didn't get a single fight all evening. I also didn't get to PPT enough to make up for the 5 defenders recapping everything the moment we log off.

.

 

So here we have people trying to defend Keeps who get bugged because the blobs get in... on the other hand the blobs/zergs seem to also have issues because they can't fight AC's. Who in the world said you had to take the wall down AT the wall? long range trebs and catas can do the jobs... then blob your way through. It's not really that hard if your big group wants to actually TAKE the keep. I'm amazed at how many zergs give up when they don't have to.....

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

>

> > You're very welcome to come home and relax from a stressful day. Imagine, I come home from my long and stressful day at work and decide I'll tag up. The enemies instantly run because I have a group of good players capable of killing them, so I start to PPT to go up in tiers and get stronger enemies. I get shot by ACs for the next 3 hours. None of my players are having fun. I log off frustrated, because despite wanting to have fun in the game I didn't get a single fight all evening. I also didn't get to PPT enough to make up for the 5 defenders recapping everything the moment we log off.

> .

>

> So here we have people trying to defend Keeps who get bugged because the blobs get in... on the other hand the blobs/zergs seem to also have issues because they can't fight AC's. Who in the world said you had to take the wall down AT the wall? long range trebs and catas can do the jobs... then blob your way through. It's not really that hard if your big group wants to actually TAKE the keep. I'm amazed at how many zergs give up when they don't have to.....

 

I play on EU prime. The servers I play against are capable of queueing a map without issues during the time we fight. This doesn't stop them from buliding 10 acs and not coming out. And if we want to, we'll still take stuff but it'll take hours, be boring and the moment we get through the wall the defenders jump out anyways. At no point is there a real defense with players; there is only siege wars and stalling. "Give up" for what? Not spending my entire evening on a keep that auto-upgrades because EU has one prime? Great thinking.

 

Again, there is no interactive gameplay in defending with pure siege. You expect attackers to do a perfect attack for several hours straight to flip your stuff because what? It took 3 players a few hours to upgrade? So it must take 70 players the same amount of time playing siege wars without defenders to hold? Of course not.

 

Defenders are pretending defense is impossible, casually ignoring the fact that they still have MASSIVE advantages. Terrain is heavily in favor of defenders. Every keep helps your range and gank with space and freedom of movement. You still have siege, including mortars cannons acs and trebs which do a lot of damage. You have disablers which can't be prevented. I'm seeing trebs on every other gate which can't be blocked meaning gates don't even exist the moment 1 person is inside. Supply traps still easily stop blobs. Most cata's and trebs can be countered even when not next to the wall, or suicided on to delay more.

 

And the hardest part is still pushing in, through chokes and a million siege, killing the defenders serveral times without having clear respwns, kill the lord, stand in a circle taking a million AoE while clearing it from all enemies and not letting them res the lord in an area where they constantly respawn + tactics + still having siege...

 

YET SOMEHOW. Defending is impossible. Somehow, we just want to karma train, and if 5 players can't defend against 50 it's unfun and they're bullies.

 

Defenders have absolutely massive advantages over attackers. If you can't defend your structures, perhaps you should work on your defense strategies rather than telling me how to play. And no, asking for ACs to be absolutely broken isn't a defense strategy ;).

 

PS. Did I say anything about blob or about catas on a wall? Don't think so.

[Balthazzarr.1349]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> >

> > > You're very welcome to come home and relax from a stressful day. Imagine, I come home from my long and stressful day at work and decide I'll tag up. The enemies instantly run because I have a group of good players capable of killing them, so I start to PPT to go up in tiers and get stronger enemies. I get shot by ACs for the next 3 hours. None of my players are having fun. I log off frustrated, because despite wanting to have fun in the game I didn't get a single fight all evening. I also didn't get to PPT enough to make up for the 5 defenders recapping everything the moment we log off.

> > .

> >

> > So here we have people trying to defend Keeps who get bugged because the blobs get in... on the other hand the blobs/zergs seem to also have issues because they can't fight AC's. Who in the world said you had to take the wall down AT the wall? long range trebs and catas can do the jobs... then blob your way through. It's not really that hard if your big group wants to actually TAKE the keep. I'm amazed at how many zergs give up when they don't have to.....

>

> I play on EU prime. The servers I play against are capable of queueing a map without issues during the time we fight. This doesn't stop them from buliding 10 acs and not coming out. And if we want to, we'll still take stuff but it'll take hours, be boring and the moment we get through the wall the defenders jump out anyways. At no point is there a real defense with players; there is only siege wars and stalling. "Give up" for what? Not spending my entire evening on a keep that auto-upgrades because EU has one prime? Great thinking.

>

> Again, there is no interactive gameplay in defending with pure siege. You expect attackers to do a perfect attack for several hours straight to flip your stuff because what? It took 3 players a few hours to upgrade? So it must take 70 players the same amount of time playing siege wars without defenders to hold? Of course not.

>

> Defenders are pretending defense is impossible, casually ignoring the fact that they still have MASSIVE advantages. Terrain is heavily in favor of defenders. Every keep helps your range and gank with space and freedom of movement. You still have siege, including mortars cannons acs and trebs which do a lot of damage. You have disablers which can't be prevented. I'm seeing trebs on every other gate which can't be blocked meaning gates don't even exist the moment 1 person is inside. Supply traps still easily stop blobs. Most cata's and trebs can be countered even when not next to the wall, or suicided on to delay more.

>

> And the hardest part is still pushing in, through chokes and a million siege, killing the defenders serveral times without having clear respwns, kill the lord, stand in a circle taking a million AoE while clearing it from all enemies and not letting them res the lord in an area where they constantly respawn + tactics + still having siege...

>

> YET SOMEHOW. Defending is impossible. Somehow, we just want to karma train, and if 5 players can't defend against 50 it's unfun and they're bullies.

>

> Defenders have absolutely massive advantages over attackers. If you can't defend your structures, perhaps you should work on your defense strategies rather than telling me how to play. And no, asking for ACs to be absolutely broken isn't a defense strategy ;).

>

> PS. Did I say anything about blob or about catas on a wall? Don't think so.

 

catas on the wall... etc... <== I was speaking to the general comments in many of the posts here....

 

After all is said and done the intent of my post was to point out that both sides are complaining about the other instead of just letting people do what they want. Sure some people do sit in T3 Keeps and man tons of siege I know a couple servers that do that but don't need to name them. It doesn't matter to me... let them sit in there and be bored... those Keeps obviously just get manned and left alone.

 

As for the rest, some of us (like me) DO go into a Keep when it looks like it might be hit and a few of us will work our butts off defending it. If the blob is bad then they don't get in. If they know what they're doing then no amount of siege 3-5 of us can manage can keep them out. Most blobs aren't very good so they can be kept out, but the good ones just go through the T3 keeps like they're butter a lot of the time... when they really want to, they can do it.

 

My issue is with the constant complaining from both sides.. Sheesh, I do both.. I will run with a zerg/blob from time to time just because it actually is fun at times. Other times I will roam and defend. I have no issue with the defenders or the zerg/blobs. Each does what they do. I only have issues with the complaining... I mean seriously, it's a game.. the mechanics have been put there for us to use.. why in the world would be not use them regardless of what mode we choose to play??

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > >

> > > > You're very welcome to come home and relax from a stressful day. Imagine, I come home from my long and stressful day at work and decide I'll tag up. The enemies instantly run because I have a group of good players capable of killing them, so I start to PPT to go up in tiers and get stronger enemies. I get shot by ACs for the next 3 hours. None of my players are having fun. I log off frustrated, because despite wanting to have fun in the game I didn't get a single fight all evening. I also didn't get to PPT enough to make up for the 5 defenders recapping everything the moment we log off.

> > > .

> > >

> > > So here we have people trying to defend Keeps who get bugged because the blobs get in... on the other hand the blobs/zergs seem to also have issues because they can't fight AC's. Who in the world said you had to take the wall down AT the wall? long range trebs and catas can do the jobs... then blob your way through. It's not really that hard if your big group wants to actually TAKE the keep. I'm amazed at how many zergs give up when they don't have to.....

> >

> > I play on EU prime. The servers I play against are capable of queueing a map without issues during the time we fight. This doesn't stop them from buliding 10 acs and not coming out. And if we want to, we'll still take stuff but it'll take hours, be boring and the moment we get through the wall the defenders jump out anyways. At no point is there a real defense with players; there is only siege wars and stalling. "Give up" for what? Not spending my entire evening on a keep that auto-upgrades because EU has one prime? Great thinking.

> >

> > Again, there is no interactive gameplay in defending with pure siege. You expect attackers to do a perfect attack for several hours straight to flip your stuff because what? It took 3 players a few hours to upgrade? So it must take 70 players the same amount of time playing siege wars without defenders to hold? Of course not.

> >

> > Defenders are pretending defense is impossible, casually ignoring the fact that they still have MASSIVE advantages. Terrain is heavily in favor of defenders. Every keep helps your range and gank with space and freedom of movement. You still have siege, including mortars cannons acs and trebs which do a lot of damage. You have disablers which can't be prevented. I'm seeing trebs on every other gate which can't be blocked meaning gates don't even exist the moment 1 person is inside. Supply traps still easily stop blobs. Most cata's and trebs can be countered even when not next to the wall, or suicided on to delay more.

> >

> > And the hardest part is still pushing in, through chokes and a million siege, killing the defenders serveral times without having clear respwns, kill the lord, stand in a circle taking a million AoE while clearing it from all enemies and not letting them res the lord in an area where they constantly respawn + tactics + still having siege...

> >

> > YET SOMEHOW. Defending is impossible. Somehow, we just want to karma train, and if 5 players can't defend against 50 it's unfun and they're bullies.

> >

> > Defenders have absolutely massive advantages over attackers. If you can't defend your structures, perhaps you should work on your defense strategies rather than telling me how to play. And no, asking for ACs to be absolutely broken isn't a defense strategy ;).

> >

> > PS. Did I say anything about blob or about catas on a wall? Don't think so.

>

> catas on the wall... etc... <== I was speaking to the general comments in many of the posts here....

>

> After all is said and done the intent of my post was to point out that both sides are complaining about the other instead of just letting people do what they want. Sure some people do sit in T3 Keeps and man tons of siege I know a couple servers that do that but don't need to name them. It doesn't matter to me... let them sit in there and be bored... those Keeps obviously just get manned and left alone.

>

> As for the rest, some of us (like me) DO go into a Keep when it looks like it might be hit and a few of us will work our butts off defending it. If the blob is bad then they don't get in. If they know what they're doing then no amount of siege 3-5 of us can manage can keep them out. Most blobs aren't very good so they can be kept out, but the good ones just go through the T3 keeps like they're butter a lot of the time... when they really want to, they can do it.

>

> My issue is with the constant complaining from both sides.. Sheesh, I do both.. I will run with a zerg/blob from time to time just because it actually is fun at times. Other times I will roam and defend. I have no issue with the defenders or the zerg/blobs. Each does what they do. I only have issues with the complaining... I mean seriously, it's a game.. the mechanics have been put there for us to use.. why in the world would be not use them regardless of what mode we choose to play??

 

Can’t help but agree here. A good blob with a good commander wouldn’t be stopped by just a few defenders with arrow carts. If that’s where the heartache is then maybe people should play smarter.

 

[aspirine.6852]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"aspirine.6852" said:

> > So far this nerf in EU has a result of more PPT. The zelf proclaimed fighting servers are capping like their lives depend on it.

>

> It's almost like nerfing siege which equals non-interactive gameplay promotes interactive gameplay, like actively attacking and defending. Who'd have thought?!

 

By blitz capping towers and port back to spawn. Yes so exciting. Moar wxp is better right.

[Stormscar.5489]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Oh my God. This is a Game, not actual warfare. It's supposed to be fun and entertaining. It's not like you are going to lose your house, job, or money if you lose. Why so serious? Why is it so difficult for people to understand that there are more than one way to play a game? Why do they have to get all angry and hurt if somebody else doesn't want to play the game the way they want to play it? Why do they have to be so rude to other people and belittle them? Just because it isn't a nurturing learning institution doesn't mean you can be a bully to other people playing a game that they want to enjoy, have fun, and relax from a long stressful day.

 

Just because its a game doesn't mean it has to be braindead, and that it cannot be competitive. People use sports to relax and relieve stress, while still being competitive about it. They don't start whining and crying that the players they're playing against are better if they lose. You want relaxed gameplay? Well, I have good news for you. 95% of GW2 is like that. Stop asking that the remaining 5% is also accomodated to players like you, and for Anet to completely waste this combat system on shitty content.

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > > @"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

> > > > > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > >

> > > > > You're very welcome to come home and relax from a stressful day. Imagine, I come home from my long and stressful day at work and decide I'll tag up. The enemies instantly run because I have a group of good players capable of killing them, so I start to PPT to go up in tiers and get stronger enemies. I get shot by ACs for the next 3 hours. None of my players are having fun. I log off frustrated, because despite wanting to have fun in the game I didn't get a single fight all evening. I also didn't get to PPT enough to make up for the 5 defenders recapping everything the moment we log off.

> > > > .

> > > >

> > > > So here we have people trying to defend Keeps who get bugged because the blobs get in... on the other hand the blobs/zergs seem to also have issues because they can't fight AC's. Who in the world said you had to take the wall down AT the wall? long range trebs and catas can do the jobs... then blob your way through. It's not really that hard if your big group wants to actually TAKE the keep. I'm amazed at how many zergs give up when they don't have to.....

> > >

> > > I play on EU prime. The servers I play against are capable of queueing a map without issues during the time we fight. This doesn't stop them from buliding 10 acs and not coming out. And if we want to, we'll still take stuff but it'll take hours, be boring and the moment we get through the wall the defenders jump out anyways. At no point is there a real defense with players; there is only siege wars and stalling. "Give up" for what? Not spending my entire evening on a keep that auto-upgrades because EU has one prime? Great thinking.

> > >

> > > Again, there is no interactive gameplay in defending with pure siege. You expect attackers to do a perfect attack for several hours straight to flip your stuff because what? It took 3 players a few hours to upgrade? So it must take 70 players the same amount of time playing siege wars without defenders to hold? Of course not.

> > >

> > > Defenders are pretending defense is impossible, casually ignoring the fact that they still have MASSIVE advantages. Terrain is heavily in favor of defenders. Every keep helps your range and gank with space and freedom of movement. You still have siege, including mortars cannons acs and trebs which do a lot of damage. You have disablers which can't be prevented. I'm seeing trebs on every other gate which can't be blocked meaning gates don't even exist the moment 1 person is inside. Supply traps still easily stop blobs. Most cata's and trebs can be countered even when not next to the wall, or suicided on to delay more.

> > >

> > > And the hardest part is still pushing in, through chokes and a million siege, killing the defenders serveral times without having clear respwns, kill the lord, stand in a circle taking a million AoE while clearing it from all enemies and not letting them res the lord in an area where they constantly respawn + tactics + still having siege...

> > >

> > > YET SOMEHOW. Defending is impossible. Somehow, we just want to karma train, and if 5 players can't defend against 50 it's unfun and they're bullies.

> > >

> > > Defenders have absolutely massive advantages over attackers. If you can't defend your structures, perhaps you should work on your defense strategies rather than telling me how to play. And no, asking for ACs to be absolutely broken isn't a defense strategy ;).

> > >

> > > PS. Did I say anything about blob or about catas on a wall? Don't think so.

> >

> > catas on the wall... etc... <== I was speaking to the general comments in many of the posts here....

> >

> > After all is said and done the intent of my post was to point out that both sides are complaining about the other instead of just letting people do what they want. Sure some people do sit in T3 Keeps and man tons of siege I know a couple servers that do that but don't need to name them. It doesn't matter to me... let them sit in there and be bored... those Keeps obviously just get manned and left alone.

> >

> > As for the rest, some of us (like me) DO go into a Keep when it looks like it might be hit and a few of us will work our butts off defending it. If the blob is bad then they don't get in. If they know what they're doing then no amount of siege 3-5 of us can manage can keep them out. Most blobs aren't very good so they can be kept out, but the good ones just go through the T3 keeps like they're butter a lot of the time... when they really want to, they can do it.

> >

> > My issue is with the constant complaining from both sides.. Sheesh, I do both.. I will run with a zerg/blob from time to time just because it actually is fun at times. Other times I will roam and defend. I have no issue with the defenders or the zerg/blobs. Each does what they do. I only have issues with the complaining... I mean seriously, it's a game.. the mechanics have been put there for us to use.. why in the world would be not use them regardless of what mode we choose to play??

>

> Can’t help but agree here. A good blob with a good commander wouldn’t be stopped by just a few defenders with arrow carts. If that’s where the heartache is then maybe people should play smarter.

>

 

This entire line of thinking is so obviously erroneous I have a hard time believing it's genuine.

 

This has now become a straw man of a response to a red herring. Or maybe a red herring response to a response to another red herring I'm not sure.

 

 

Either way you should 100 percent of the time lose the objective 5v50 there is no serious argument that can be made to the contrary.

 

The actual real in game happens all the time issue is 50 defenders building siege to defend against 50 attackers instead of fighting them BECAUSE BUILDING DEFENSIVE SIEGE WHICH INCLUDE BUT ISNT LIMITED TO ARROW CARTS IS ALWAYS THE SUPERIOR DEFENSIVE STRATEGY REGARDLESS OF THE CONTEXT BECAUSE IT IS BRAINDEAD EASY TO BUILD AND OPERATE AND ITS ALL SO STRONG THAT VIRTUALLY ANYONE CAN BE EFFECTIVE WITH IT.

 

No one defending siege has even attempted to address this claim they've all just defaulted to "Well if you can't beat 5 people with arrow carts that's your problem."

[Aeolus.3615]

@Israel.7056, usually 50vs50 only happens on resets and some other very very very rare moments, usually its more like 5 vs 50, at morning and later on the day it is 50 vs 5.

 

And ofc they wont, servers that have like players to give outmaned to other server but u wont see anything fleeping for the next 30-40 minutes, and if u get close to SMC 40+ players and siege will pop up like u kicked a bee hive even if it is just to kill 1 or 10 players... those players and servers will never say that overstacking is a issue, they are embracing it.

 

Still funny how some 20+ blobs will bail out at minimal contact with 1-3 defenders..... that's just players expecting to get structures and QQ if they have to fight or will tag out of comander cause comander leaded to a fight.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"Israel.7056"

 

I think no one addresses 50 defenders building seige to defend vs 50 attackers because they know there is no defense of that. Period. (Yes the game allows for it, but c'mon man...)

 

My statement (and not speaking for anyone else) is if ACs are destroying Catas, the commander is doing it wrong.

 

With all towers, catas can be built outside of ballista range and watchtower range. ACs SHOULD BE a non factor.

 

I am glad they nerfed the damage to players. That will allow a push to be more about defenders casted skills and less about the damn ACs.

 

I only wish they had kept AC damage high vs catas and trebs, but nerfed it to the floor vs rams. Though I doubt the two could be separated.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> @"Israel.7056"

>

> I think no one addresses 50 defenders building seige to defend vs 50 attackers because they know there is no defense of that. Period. (Yes the game allows for it, but c'mon man...)

>

> My statement (and not speaking for anyone else) is if ACs are destroying Catas, the commander is doing it wrong.

>

> With all towers, catas can be built outside of ballista range and watchtower range. ACs SHOULD BE a non factor.

>

> I am glad they nerfed the damage to players. That will allow a push to be more about defenders casted skills and less about the kitten ACs.

>

> I only wish they had kept AC damage high vs catas and trebs, but nerfed it to the floor vs rams. Though I doubt the two could be separated.

 

But who builds catapults outside proxy range????

At the corner of some walls u can deploy cata's deep inside wall that will reduce the damage on them if not impossible to hit due the ammount of aoe/puls comming from below.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"Israel.7056"

> >

> > I think no one addresses 50 defenders building seige to defend vs 50 attackers because they know there is no defense of that. Period. (Yes the game allows for it, but c'mon man...)

> >

> > My statement (and not speaking for anyone else) is if ACs are destroying Catas, the commander is doing it wrong.

> >

> > With all towers, catas can be built outside of ballista range and watchtower range. ACs SHOULD BE a non factor.

> >

> > I am glad they nerfed the damage to players. That will allow a push to be more about defenders casted skills and less about the kitten ACs.

> >

> > I only wish they had kept AC damage high vs catas and trebs, but nerfed it to the floor vs rams. Though I doubt the two could be separated.

>

> But who builds catapults outside proxy range????

> At the corner of some walls u can deploy cata's deep inside wall that will reduce the damage on them if not impossible to hit due the ammount of aoe/puls comming from below.

 

I do. Often. The only way they die is if we screw up the bubble rotation on a mortar or if they come out and kill them. Ie a fight.

[Israel.7056]

The 50v50 or 40v40 or 30v30 scenario happens all the time in the higher tiers particularly during na time zone. I should start recording every fight I'm in where defenders siege turtle to show how frequent it is.

 

The key to building defensive siege is to make it an obnoxious and unfun as possible. Make it take hours to get into lords and make every inch agonizing. That way even if they take the objective they log off due to frustration and boredom. Don't just to kill the siege build acs in places that can only fire on players. Fire the inner and outer mortars on them. Build ballis and catas to harass. Make sure every engagement takes place under cover of arrow carts or mortars or cannons or better yet all three. Make them never want to try another siege again.

[Etheri.5406]

Hmm still the same old wah wah wah my acs aren't strong enough despite having tactics, auto upgrading and lots more supply available, shield gens nerfed, gliding into defensive objectives. We are so called PPTers and defenders and we want it all to be free and easy. The moment ACs can't be stacked like crazy we pretend they don't exist and defending is impossible... Even if there are still acs and defenders still have massive advantages over attackers.

 

If you attack my stuff I should be able to hit you without you ever being able to hit me or get through the walls! Clearly the counter to ACs is never going in range of them! This results in very healthy gameplay and attack strategies like camping siege until your enemies log off. Whoever manages to shoot siege the longest deserves to win!

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > Hmm still the same old thing wah wah wah kill acs nerf all siege we are bored and want to take everything easily ,we are so called fight guilds and want it all our own way ,but funnily enough the large servers are the biggest abusers of AC use. and misplacement of siege engines that have range go figure. Die slowly and beat on the wall.

>

> Same old thing we want a tool so strong we never have to fight people.

 

I use all facets of the game to play, bit of this a bit of that but never lay down and roll over just because of complaints about siege it is what it is , and really you dont get a headache just from using the grey matter between the ears . There is always other games to play if it gets to hard to handle.