WvW Arrow Cart Nerfing

[Chaba.5410]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > If you dedicate a burn guard, that ac is toast. in a 2x guard per team, one could be a burn guard. just probably 3 or 4 burn guards. but, i think not many decide to run a certain composition anymore.

> >

> > Those people "pugging" defense on their non-group comp build are also the same people who are not running a burn guard to counter ACs when they follow a pug tag. And then people start threads wondering where all the commanders went....

>

> is the burn guard really a rare thing now? i know they nerfed but they kill acs so effectively. :/

>

> in my raids, most of the guys are guildies so they know what i want since we've raided for almost a year now.

>

> dont alliances try to setup comp suggestions?

 

My post was more in regards to pugs who think they shouldn't run anything meta that helps the server. WvW involves both being on the defense and going on the offense. The attitude about not running anything close to meta honestly makes the problem of "we can't fight that zerg so please buff defense" self-perpetuating.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Player.9621" said:

> good job

> fed up with bads who camp walls and never come out to fight

 

And I bet you're the "good" trying to force a fight which is more or less 10 to 1..so skilled

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > > If you dedicate a burn guard, that ac is toast. in a 2x guard per team, one could be a burn guard. just probably 3 or 4 burn guards. but, i think not many decide to run a certain composition anymore.

> > >

> > > Those people "pugging" defense on their non-group comp build are also the same people who are not running a burn guard to counter ACs when they follow a pug tag. And then people start threads wondering where all the commanders went....

> >

> > is the burn guard really a rare thing now? i know they nerfed but they kill acs so effectively. :/

> >

> > in my raids, most of the guys are guildies so they know what i want since we've raided for almost a year now.

> >

> > dont alliances try to setup comp suggestions?

>

> My post was more in regards to pugs who think they shouldn't run anything meta that helps the server. WvW involves both being on the defense and going on the offense. The attitude about not running anything close to meta honestly makes the problem of "we can't fight that zerg so please buff defense" self-perpetuating.

 

probably some players simply dont know how to counter things because of lack of experience?

 

i mean, my team does not run meta stuff for the purpose of countering the meta stuff and it works for us.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Player.9621" said:

> > good job

> > fed up with bads who camp walls and never come out to fight

>

> And I bet you're the "good" trying to force a fight which is more or less 10 to 1..so skilled

 

In my time zone it's always 30+ turtling with acs against even numbers so you must be playing offprime to have numbers that lopsided.

[Player.9621]

for the record i only run havoc

not a fan of large squads at all

[steki.1478]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > > > If you dedicate a burn guard, that ac is toast. in a 2x guard per team, one could be a burn guard. just probably 3 or 4 burn guards. but, i think not many decide to run a certain composition anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Those people "pugging" defense on their non-group comp build are also the same people who are not running a burn guard to counter ACs when they follow a pug tag. And then people start threads wondering where all the commanders went....

> > >

> > > is the burn guard really a rare thing now? i know they nerfed but they kill acs so effectively. :/

> > >

> > > in my raids, most of the guys are guildies so they know what i want since we've raided for almost a year now.

> > >

> > > dont alliances try to setup comp suggestions?

> >

> > My post was more in regards to pugs who think they shouldn't run anything meta that helps the server. WvW involves both being on the defense and going on the offense. The attitude about not running anything close to meta honestly makes the problem of "we can't fight that zerg so please buff defense" self-perpetuating.

>

> probably some players simply dont know how to counter things because of lack of experience?

>

> i mean, my team does not run meta stuff for the purpose of countering the meta stuff and it works for us.

 

And then you make thread about "current wvw meta" and post your random builds and compositions. Brilliant.

[samo.1054]

Altho I also guild raid, my main thing is roaming and I support the nerf to arrowcarts. The fact that you could basically build as many as you wanted and all of them would dish out great damage on any number of people was broken and stupid, there is no denying that. There were multiple ways to nerf arrowcarts. Anet took one way, it is somewhat effective altho also somewhat lazy, but OK.

 

ACs had too much of an effect for a simple click and fire action that you had to do, their minimum range was too close as well, if we're talking realism here. If people feel like they need help defending, there are other, better ways to help them, instead of having the old AC cancer back. Besides, people shouldn't feel like siege should be their solution to maintain every single object unconquerable. If the enemy outnumbers you, or if they outplay you, you SHOULD lose the objective. There are ways to play around that and cut your loses both in PPT and PPK department.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"samo.1054" said:

>

>

>their minimum range was too close as well, if we're talking realism here.

So... the primary issue with minimum range is also applicable to catas. IF we were to adopt AC minimum range then Catas shouldn't be ale to be placed against a wall and actually do damage.

> If people feel like they need help defending, there are other, better ways to help them, instead of having the old AC cancer back. Besides, people shouldn't feel like siege should be their solution to maintain every single object unconquerable. If the enemy outnumbers you, or if they outplay you, you SHOULD lose the objective. There are ways to play around that and cut your loses both in PPT and PPK department.

 

Completely agree on the **'or if they outplay you, you SHOULD lose the objective.'**. Which is why I would advocate for increased AC damage vs catas and trebs, decreasing its damage vs players (like to decreased strikes per second nerf they did) and allowing iron hide from rams to massively protect from AC damage.

 

If someone puts catas in range of ACs, they SHOULD lose those catas, because a it's a poor strategy.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > > > > If you dedicate a burn guard, that ac is toast. in a 2x guard per team, one could be a burn guard. just probably 3 or 4 burn guards. but, i think not many decide to run a certain composition anymore.

> > > > >

> > > > > Those people "pugging" defense on their non-group comp build are also the same people who are not running a burn guard to counter ACs when they follow a pug tag. And then people start threads wondering where all the commanders went....

> > > >

> > > > is the burn guard really a rare thing now? i know they nerfed but they kill acs so effectively. :/

> > > >

> > > > in my raids, most of the guys are guildies so they know what i want since we've raided for almost a year now.

> > > >

> > > > dont alliances try to setup comp suggestions?

> > >

> > > My post was more in regards to pugs who think they shouldn't run anything meta that helps the server. WvW involves both being on the defense and going on the offense. The attitude about not running anything close to meta honestly makes the problem of "we can't fight that zerg so please buff defense" self-perpetuating.

> >

> > probably some players simply dont know how to counter things because of lack of experience?

> >

> > i mean, my team does not run meta stuff for the purpose of countering the meta stuff and it works for us.

>

> And then you make thread about "current wvw meta" and post your random builds and compositions. Brilliant.

 

well yes, the builds and comps that gets us lots of bags. out of our research we share it, so players who want to try can try it or criticize it.

 

=)

 

now i dont share it openly anymore since many players dont appreciate it. we now just pass it by word of mouth. or for those willing to discuss with me via mail or voip.

 

for now, we just let the bag wake speak for itself.

 

i remember before when we made the fb scourge popular. up to now it is still the standard. lots of variations exist of course due to the nerf but for the issue of ac.

 

burn guard, staff ele, etc. work. is burn block guard among the meta builds? no.

 

which is why i can say not many players do their own research on these builds. and those.that.do will know how to.counter it. those that.whine, where ac is indeed op, just dont think.

 

 

[Stormscar.5489]

> well yes, the builds and comps that gets us lots of bags. out of our research we share it, so players who want to try can try it or criticize it.

>

> =)

>

> now i dont share it openly anymore since many players dont appreciate it. we now just pass it by word of mouth. or for those willing to discuss with me via mail or voip.

>

> for now, we just let the bag wake speak for itself.

>

> i remember before when we made the fb scourge popular. up to now it is still the standard. lots of variations exist of course due to the nerf but for the issue of ac.

>

> burn guard, staff ele, etc. work. is burn block guard among the meta builds? no.

>

> which is why i can say not many players do their own research on these builds. and those.that.do will know how to.counter it. those that.whine, where ac is indeed op, just dont think.

>

>

Getting a lot of bags isn't a measure of how good builds are. If you fight trash servers or EB pugs for example, it doesn't matter for shit. But ppl take that one night where they farmed a shitty group, probably with a chatmander and 20 non meta classes, and use it as proof for their incorrect decisions.

 

[Marcel.1857]

Tbh i like the patch that ac got a cd for hitting players but i dislike the dmg nerve for ac on siege weapons since ac´s are literally the only thing you can use for defense and since they do so less dmg on siege i give up on defending anything. it takes you 15min to kill a deam catapult wtf which wall would hold out that much??? And balista no sorry, the require a line of sight strait forward so you would need to build it on the edge of the wall and yeah you would get bombed out of life before hiting once. Same with oil and cannons they are on the edge and every commander does first take them down and build afterwards siege so there is no way to deffend except you got a blob on your side that can kill them.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Stormscar.5489" said:

> > well yes, the builds and comps that gets us lots of bags. out of our research we share it, so players who want to try can try it or criticize it.

> >

> > =)

> >

> > now i dont share it openly anymore since many players dont appreciate it. we now just pass it by word of mouth. or for those willing to discuss with me via mail or voip.

> >

> > for now, we just let the bag wake speak for itself.

> >

> > i remember before when we made the fb scourge popular. up to now it is still the standard. lots of variations exist of course due to the nerf but for the issue of ac.

> >

> > burn guard, staff ele, etc. work. is burn block guard among the meta builds? no.

> >

> > which is why i can say not many players do their own research on these builds. and those.that.do will know how to.counter it. those that.whine, where ac is indeed op, just dont think.

> >

> >

> Getting a lot of bags isn't a measure of how good builds are. If you fight trash servers or EB pugs for example, it doesn't matter for kitten. But ppl take that one night where they farmed a kitten group, probably with a chatmander and 20 non meta classes, and use it as proof for their incorrect decisions.

>

 

are you saying all the servers we fought in na and eu are trash?

 

in na ns fought t4 to t1 and we got bags there despite who we fought, the same when we were in deso.

 

if not bags, what metric do you measure in wvw?

 

i cant fight for ppt, we do not have the coverage and we know ppt is coverage wars.

 

if k/d we get positive k/d at my timezone.

 

tell me how you measure it so i can test it.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Marcel.1857" said:

> Tbh i like the patch that ac got a cd for hitting players but i dislike the dmg nerve for ac on siege weapons since ac´s are literally the only thing you can use for defense and since they do so less dmg on siege i give up on defending anything. it takes you 15min to kill a deam catapult kitten which wall would hold out that much??? And balista no sorry, the require a line of sight strait forward so you would need to build it on the edge of the wall and yeah you would get bombed out of life before hiting once. Same with oil and cannons they are on the edge and every commander does first take them down and build afterwards siege so there is no way to deffend except you got a blob on your side that can kill them.

 

ac nerf was good for those who now use bunker stuff - with dwarf rev, healing fb. takes like atleast 3 acs to scare off a tanky group. ac is still strong but... ppl whine too much.

[Chaba.5410]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> is burn block guard among the meta builds? no.

 

We just discussed how organized groups would have at least one. It is a specialized role used in a specific WvW situation. One would say it is part of the "siege meta", no different from support scrapper having a specialized role in most GvGs currently even if they aren't commonly found in the larger open field zergs.

 

Or I just have a wider definition of what is "meta" than you.

 

 

[Garrus.7403]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

 

> are you saying all the servers we fought in na and eu are trash?

>

Tbh in EU you were the trash that kept the loot bags flowing. :)

[Aeolus.3615]

Make superior ac's 1st skill do like 4-6k(max) damage but put it on a 6-10sec CD, if players use blocks, heal, and team work it would be safe those who just banzai mindless or want no effort afk under ac shower need to be punihsed.

This would also punish the the 30 players that would stay behind ac's when they havbe players to push if they fail a voley they would enter in a 8-10sec CD, a mass psike with 10 sup ac's would be meaninfull or complete useless depending offense team work to avoid the ac spike, but extremelly rewarded if they manage to dodge or block/heal fast, and push.

 

SUPER CAPS LOCK MOD SUPER INTENDED!

 

# Issue with AC design is the spam, no matter how much Anet nerf them in damage while the spam keeps up players will just stack more cause if u fail with ac damage u can kip spamming it, if 10 wont work players will build more.

 

#STOP THE INFINITE AC SPAM, players using the ac need to know when is the best timming to spike with other players on ac's, at least put there some team work....

 

 

[Chaba.5410]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> if 10 wont work players will build more.

 

That's actually ok. They will drain their supply faster and once the ACs are destroyed, what will they do then?

[Stormscar.5489]

 

> are you saying all the servers we fought in na and eu are trash?

>

> in na ns fought t4 to t1 and we got bags there despite who we fought, the same when we were in deso.

>

> if not bags, what metric do you measure in wvw?

>

> i cant fight for ppt, we do not have the coverage and we know ppt is coverage wars.

>

> if k/d we get positive k/d at my timezone.

>

> tell me how you measure it so i can test it.

 

It doesn't matter what servers you go on. You can fight off prime time, or on other borders and avoiding the better groups. I'm not saying you did, because I don't know you well. But if you show fights vs strong guild and main blobs where your builds perform well, sure.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Stormscar.5489" said:

>

> > are you saying all the servers we fought in na and eu are trash?

> >

> > in na ns fought t4 to t1 and we got bags there despite who we fought, the same when we were in deso.

> >

> > if not bags, what metric do you measure in wvw?

> >

> > i cant fight for ppt, we do not have the coverage and we know ppt is coverage wars.

> >

> > if k/d we get positive k/d at my timezone.

> >

> > tell me how you measure it so i can test it.

>

> It doesn't matter what servers you go on. You can fight off prime time, or on other borders and avoiding the better groups. I'm not saying you did, because I don't know you well. But if you show fights vs strong guild and main blobs where your builds perform well, sure.

 

ah then there is no problem since thats what we do, just on our time and in this zone we are few and they are many.

 

any other metric?

[Warlord.9074]

Because nothing is stopping a massive blob who doesn't need siege in the 1st place from building 100 arrow carts and using them while they blob everyone down, much balance wow. Or sit on walls on Siege when they don't even need it to fight.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

 

> i remember before when we made the fb scourge popular. up to now it is still the standard. lots of variations exist of course due to the nerf but for the issue of ac.

>

You stated the obvious...

Everyone knew FB/scourge were going to be strong the moment we got class previews <,<

> burn guard, staff ele, etc. work. is burn block guard among the meta builds? no.

 

 

Yes, yes it is. For a long time now

Just not commonly

 

 

 

 

 

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > @"Stormscar.5489" said:

> > > well yes, the builds and comps that gets us lots of bags. out of our research we share it, so players who want to try can try it or criticize it.

> > >

> > > =)

> > >

> > > now i dont share it openly anymore since many players dont appreciate it. we now just pass it by word of mouth. or for those willing to discuss with me via mail or voip.

> > >

> > > for now, we just let the bag wake speak for itself.

> > >

> > > i remember before when we made the fb scourge popular. up to now it is still the standard. lots of variations exist of course due to the nerf but for the issue of ac.

> > >

> > > burn guard, staff ele, etc. work. is burn block guard among the meta builds? no.

> > >

> > > which is why i can say not many players do their own research on these builds. and those.that.do will know how to.counter it. those that.whine, where ac is indeed op, just dont think.

> > >

> > >

> > Getting a lot of bags isn't a measure of how good builds are. If you fight trash servers or EB pugs for example, it doesn't matter for kitten. But ppl take that one night where they farmed a kitten group, probably with a chatmander and 20 non meta classes, and use it as proof for their incorrect decisions.

> >

>

> are you saying all the servers we fought in na and eu are trash?

>

> in na ns fought t4 to t1 and we got bags there despite who we fought, the same when we were in deso.

>

> if not bags, what metric do you measure in wvw?

>

> i cant fight for ppt, we do not have the coverage and we know ppt is coverage wars.

>

> if k/d we get positive k/d at my timezone.

>

> tell me how you measure it so i can test it.

 

Sorry but deso was... the #1 eu stacked server that fell to T3-T5 soon after you came back to the game. You stayed in T3-T5 for the majority of a full year while remaining FULL, a luxury most servers you fought did not have. Despite this coverage and being a former very strong server, it had negative KDA against almost everything. I'm sure there are worse enemies in the game, no doubt about that. This is the time where you played on deso / EU.

 

During this time, you uploaded many videos of your great fights against all opponents. Almost always unorganised T3-T5 pugs or bunkering against enemies with better organisation / coordination, sometimes even with superior numbers and an army of pugs. You have recordings of most of your raids. If your builds are functional against good enemies as proven on EU, show some videos of fighting actual proper enemies on EU. I'd quite like to see those. You HAVE the footage, so prove it.

 

If you're using your time as EU as some kind of credential towards your builds, at least be honest about it. Stuck in the lower tiers fighting mostly unorganised pugs and avoiding all strong guilds.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > @"Stormscar.5489" said:

> > > > well yes, the builds and comps that gets us lots of bags. out of our research we share it, so players who want to try can try it or criticize it.

> > > >

> > > > =)

> > > >

> > > > now i dont share it openly anymore since many players dont appreciate it. we now just pass it by word of mouth. or for those willing to discuss with me via mail or voip.

> > > >

> > > > for now, we just let the bag wake speak for itself.

> > > >

> > > > i remember before when we made the fb scourge popular. up to now it is still the standard. lots of variations exist of course due to the nerf but for the issue of ac.

> > > >

> > > > burn guard, staff ele, etc. work. is burn block guard among the meta builds? no.

> > > >

> > > > which is why i can say not many players do their own research on these builds. and those.that.do will know how to.counter it. those that.whine, where ac is indeed op, just dont think.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > Getting a lot of bags isn't a measure of how good builds are. If you fight trash servers or EB pugs for example, it doesn't matter for kitten. But ppl take that one night where they farmed a kitten group, probably with a chatmander and 20 non meta classes, and use it as proof for their incorrect decisions.

> > >

> >

> > are you saying all the servers we fought in na and eu are trash?

> >

> > in na ns fought t4 to t1 and we got bags there despite who we fought, the same when we were in deso.

> >

> > if not bags, what metric do you measure in wvw?

> >

> > i cant fight for ppt, we do not have the coverage and we know ppt is coverage wars.

> >

> > if k/d we get positive k/d at my timezone.

> >

> > tell me how you measure it so i can test it.

>

> Sorry but deso was... the #1 eu stacked server that fell to T3-T5 soon after you came back to the game. You stayed in T3-T5 for the majority of a full year while remaining FULL, a luxury most servers you fought did not have. Despite this coverage and being a former very strong server, it had negative KDA against almost everything. I'm sure there are worse enemies in the game, no doubt about that. This is the time where you played on deso / EU.

>

> During this time, you uploaded many videos of your great fights against all opponents. Almost always unorganised T3-T5 pugs or bunkering against enemies with better organisation / coordination, sometimes even with superior numbers and an army of pugs. You have recordings of most of your raids. If your builds are functional against good enemies as proven on EU, show some videos of fighting actual proper enemies on EU. I'd quite like to see those. You HAVE the footage, so prove it.

>

> If you're using your time as EU as some kind of credential towards your builds, at least be honest about it. Stuck in the lower tiers fighting mostly unorganised pugs and avoiding all strong guilds.

 

fough vr ban tts ttd red and other na guild. deso t5 to t1 fought sfr riverside fsp etc even vabi.

 

(to that vr tag at eb from mag, really loved fighting your team, hope we can clash this week again, vr and ban tag, the best fights we've had all year)

 

whats left to prove?

 

clearly i will not convince you. but meh. anyone else?

 

i hope ppl dont run my builds so we can always farm them.

 

in an open field situation no matter who we fight you can ask anyone in nsp what my guild does.

 

or any server who has legitly faced us, can testify we made wvw fun for them if they like fights.

 

i dont like to brag, but we are probably the only guild at my timezone of 2pm to 6pm server time who fights zergs with 7 to 20 players.

 

also regarding deso, it wasnt stacked when we were at last tier.

 

i only raided 4pm to 8pm server time daily their.

 

prime time starts at 630 to 7pm and when my raid was over. someone else takes over. that is literally 2am to 6am my time. pushing more isnt healthy for me. any legit player in deso can tell you about me, despite my reputation. i still get msges from players offering me to join eu, lead their guilds, etc. or even go back to deso.

 

but the thing is, ns na is where i love. healthwise alone i can play 10pm to 2am my timezone. and i am never going to eu servers, maybe in real life, i visit yearly, i love austria, beautiful mountains. but thats it.

 

many players in eu copied our minstrel fb trailblazer scourge spell breaker. that will be my legacy there. and probably the reputation of not giving a banana to any other entitled group.

 

the only time, i think, now our team will get to fight in the field is if you go to na. maybe then you can fight my team of 7 and enjoy. but other than that, never going to eu servers again.

 

as for vids, just check my channel, it is all there. i am not good at editing but anyone with a brain can browse youtube.

[Sovereign.1093]

also ac isnt op if players run bunkers. acs been nerfed. just dont stand in ac fire if your zerker and u will be fine.

[Trajan.4953]

Arrow carts like invulnerable walls should be a Band-Aid solution to get enough time for a group to come in to defend if not they should remain useless