Thief (Deadeye) vs Elementalist (Weaver)

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

 

Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

>

> Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

 

you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

[Tails.9372]

Weaver should dish out more AoE damage while Deadeye should lead in terms of single target DPS.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

It's pve so why care?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

> >

> > Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

>

> you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

 

I can tell you what is not in it - the power to control the raw elemenets.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

> > >

> > > Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

> >

> > you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

>

> I can tell you what is not in it - the power to control the raw elemenets.

 

Power to control the elements means nothing with a dagger sticking from your ribs. If we're arguing thematics, thief would have higher single target damage as they just hit the target while the mage takes too long waving hands and chanting nonsense.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

> > > >

> > > > Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

> > >

> > > you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

> >

> > I can tell you what is not in it - the power to control the raw elemenets.

>

> Power to control the elements means nothing with a dagger sticking from your ribs. If we're arguing thematics, thief would have higher single target damage as they just hit the target while the mage takes too long waving hands and chanting nonsense.

 

Thematically speaking, you can die both from a stab wound and a giant rock plummeting down on you. But I'm inclined to think the latter would qualify as higher damage anyway.

[Quasar.1756]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

> >

> > Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

>

> you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

 

Omg, I laughed so hard at this, don't know why but I found it funny XD

[Quasar.1756]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

> > > >

> > > > Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

> > >

> > > you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

> >

> > I can tell you what is not in it - the power to control the raw elemenets.

>

> Power to control the elements means nothing with a dagger sticking from your ribs. If we're arguing thematics, thief would have higher single target damage as they just hit the target while the mage takes too long waving hands and chanting nonsense.

 

O.O You're kidding right?

 

State of emergencies are declared on a GLOBAL level when we even THINK of a possibility of a meteor hitting us.

 

Movies are made on such scenarios, not some minor event like a knife sticking out of someone's ribs, tsk tsk.

 

Meteors are very dangerous and extremely damaging...Just ask the DINOSAURS O.O

 

FYI: If it wasn't for a mage waving hands and chanting nonsense, we would of gotten our kittens handed to us in "Lord of the rings", so there you go. :)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

> > >

> > > Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

> >

> > you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

>

> I can tell you what is not in it - the power to control the raw elemenets.

 

it doesn't matter to me, dead is dead. in my mind thief should do more single target dps and ele would still be king of huge hitbox / aoe dps.

[lLobo.7960]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

> > > >

> > > > Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

> > >

> > > you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

> >

> > I can tell you what is not in it - the power to control the raw elemenets.

>

> it doesn't matter to me, dead is dead. in my mind thief should do more single target dps and ele would still be king of huge hitbox / aoe dps.

 

Right now thief is king of single target dps, and ele is king of... weaving hands and chanting nonsense...

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

> > > >

> > > > Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

> > >

> > > you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

> >

> > I can tell you what is not in it - the power to control the raw elemenets.

>

> it doesn't matter to me, dead is dead. in my mind thief should do more single target dps and ele would still be king of huge hitbox / aoe dps.

 

See my next comment. "Dead is dead", but there are ways to objectively assess the levels of damage. You're equally dead if you get shot in the head or vaporized by a thermonuclear blast. But it is obvious which one is the more damaging, and it's obvious they aren't even on the same chart. Purely on the thematic side magic will always be capable of doing much more than the mundane. Simply because it is, by definition, not following the same rules.

 

What you're talking about is actually balance. Games have to be fun, so you can't make this level of discrepancy which can easily be thematically appropriate, or your game won't be much fun for all the users who opt to play non-magic classes.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Weavers still pump out enough damage for how much AoE they have, thieves having less cleave means they should do more single target damage to me.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > from a thematical standpoint teef should do more dps but since weaver takes more practice... idk.

> > > >

> > > > Yes. Lockpicking thematically qualifies you to do more damage than calling down meteors from the sky.

> > >

> > > you have no idea whats in that chest, do you?

> >

> > I can tell you what is not in it - the power to control the raw elemenets.

>

> it doesn't matter to me, dead is dead. in my mind thief should do more single target dps and ele would still be king of huge hitbox / aoe dps.

 

which is useless for pvp, you need more than just a viable aoe build in a mmorpg, unless your focus is on dps meter wars.

[Coolguy.8702]

> @"steki.1478" said:

 

> >

> >

>

> Engi: easy access to lots of (aoe) CC, easy access to aoe blinds (not a big factor, but very useful on sab, sloth and events), tons of soft cc (especially good on condi engi), on demand aoe condi clease+small burst heal.

>

> Guard: strong cc, aoe blocks (aegis/stab from fb, f3 from dh), aoe heals/cleanses (f2 on both dh and fb), aoe power buff with signet.

>

> Weaver (staff):

> * minor aoe healing skill (rarely used, as strong as regen with no healing power)

> * aoe cc useful only vs moving targets (exactly where weaver performs poorly so you dont even bring it)

> * single(ish) target cc delayed by 3-6 seconds (dual air or air/earth 3) or from conjured weapon (as reliable as engi's laser/bomb or dh's elite, since you use them for damage primarily)

> * minor aoe heal from water 3 or cleanse from water 5, delayed by ~6 seconds

>

> Basically nothing impactful, nothing instant, nothing that other classes dont have on 1 button press and 1 second cast time at any given moment. Not to mention that half of them come with virtually no dps uptime, comparable only to fb tomes and tempest overloads.

>

> Sword/dagger can make very strong CC chain depending on rotation (air 2, air/earth 3, air 5, earth 4, elite), but most of the time you have easy access to only one of those, and without elite, every other CC comes with 3 sec delay. It also has some minor heal+cleanse on water 5, which we all know by now that comes with big delay.

>

> The only reliable thing you can do as arcane weaver is use geyser proc on rez trait to make downed lava font rotation from other eles a bit more fluid by reviving them faster. There's the utility.

 

Sorry bout the late reply, was on vaca. Anyways

 

All you said about engi is that it has cc more or less. If you wanna bring up the aoe condi clear it has then you should bring up ele water healing then.

 

Again no, yes cc is nice, but thats only for breakbars. Dps>>>>CC (ele has way more than those 2) Chrono also does a better job of keeping up aegis btws. Signet is laughable

 

Everything you said is here is still much more than what other classes have for utility (see thief, necro, engi, guard.)

 

Ele still has more utility with the conjure weapons, frostbis and hammer can be very good if used correctly.

 

EDIT: Just discovered that ele is no longer good for raids, in that case you can just ignore this post

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

>

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Engi: easy access to lots of (aoe) CC, easy access to aoe blinds (not a big factor, but very useful on sab, sloth and events), tons of soft cc (especially good on condi engi), on demand aoe condi clease+small burst heal.

> >

> > Guard: strong cc, aoe blocks (aegis/stab from fb, f3 from dh), aoe heals/cleanses (f2 on both dh and fb), aoe power buff with signet.

> >

> > Weaver (staff):

> > * minor aoe healing skill (rarely used, as strong as regen with no healing power)

> > * aoe cc useful only vs moving targets (exactly where weaver performs poorly so you dont even bring it)

> > * single(ish) target cc delayed by 3-6 seconds (dual air or air/earth 3) or from conjured weapon (as reliable as engi's laser/bomb or dh's elite, since you use them for damage primarily)

> > * minor aoe heal from water 3 or cleanse from water 5, delayed by ~6 seconds

> >

> > Basically nothing impactful, nothing instant, nothing that other classes dont have on 1 button press and 1 second cast time at any given moment. Not to mention that half of them come with virtually no dps uptime, comparable only to fb tomes and tempest overloads.

> >

> > Sword/dagger can make very strong CC chain depending on rotation (air 2, air/earth 3, air 5, earth 4, elite), but most of the time you have easy access to only one of those, and without elite, every other CC comes with 3 sec delay. It also has some minor heal+cleanse on water 5, which we all know by now that comes with big delay.

> >

> > The only reliable thing you can do as arcane weaver is use geyser proc on rez trait to make downed lava font rotation from other eles a bit more fluid by reviving them faster. There's the utility.

> EDIT: Just discovered that ele is no longer good for raids, in that case you can just ignore this post

 

That's an understatement. Ele is no longer good for anything, not just raids.

[DragonSlayer.1087]

AOE = Elementalist

Single = Deadeye

[Nepster.4275]

Why would anyone suffer with taking ele even for AoE? I mean, adds usually get pulled, they will be cleaved down by other classes, or even the deadeye itself. Why would anyone suffer with running for conjures or thinking where to place them because of boss movement, when you have a class that does more damage, and you can actually be half asleep while you do your rotation...

Honestly i have no problems with deadeye and the lack of skill needed to play it, i have problems with ele and the skill what its needed to play it on a level to be able to compete with deadeye

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Engi: easy access to lots of (aoe) CC, easy access to aoe blinds (not a big factor, but very useful on sab, sloth and events), tons of soft cc (especially good on condi engi), on demand aoe condi clease+small burst heal.

> > >

> > > Guard: strong cc, aoe blocks (aegis/stab from fb, f3 from dh), aoe heals/cleanses (f2 on both dh and fb), aoe power buff with signet.

> > >

> > > Weaver (staff):

> > > * minor aoe healing skill (rarely used, as strong as regen with no healing power)

> > > * aoe cc useful only vs moving targets (exactly where weaver performs poorly so you dont even bring it)

> > > * single(ish) target cc delayed by 3-6 seconds (dual air or air/earth 3) or from conjured weapon (as reliable as engi's laser/bomb or dh's elite, since you use them for damage primarily)

> > > * minor aoe heal from water 3 or cleanse from water 5, delayed by ~6 seconds

> > >

> > > Basically nothing impactful, nothing instant, nothing that other classes dont have on 1 button press and 1 second cast time at any given moment. Not to mention that half of them come with virtually no dps uptime, comparable only to fb tomes and tempest overloads.

> > >

> > > Sword/dagger can make very strong CC chain depending on rotation (air 2, air/earth 3, air 5, earth 4, elite), but most of the time you have easy access to only one of those, and without elite, every other CC comes with 3 sec delay. It also has some minor heal+cleanse on water 5, which we all know by now that comes with big delay.

> > >

> > > The only reliable thing you can do as arcane weaver is use geyser proc on rez trait to make downed lava font rotation from other eles a bit more fluid by reviving them faster. There's the utility.

> > EDIT: Just discovered that ele is no longer good for raids, in that case you can just ignore this post

>

> That's an understatement. Ele is no longer good for anything, not just raids.

 

Still a premier class in WvW.

Just like necro.

 

If they made any PvE content reflect some of what happens in the PvP modes I think people would totally freak out when the class balance almost totally inverts.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Engi: easy access to lots of (aoe) CC, easy access to aoe blinds (not a big factor, but very useful on sab, sloth and events), tons of soft cc (especially good on condi engi), on demand aoe condi clease+small burst heal.

> > > >

> > > > Guard: strong cc, aoe blocks (aegis/stab from fb, f3 from dh), aoe heals/cleanses (f2 on both dh and fb), aoe power buff with signet.

> > > >

> > > > Weaver (staff):

> > > > * minor aoe healing skill (rarely used, as strong as regen with no healing power)

> > > > * aoe cc useful only vs moving targets (exactly where weaver performs poorly so you dont even bring it)

> > > > * single(ish) target cc delayed by 3-6 seconds (dual air or air/earth 3) or from conjured weapon (as reliable as engi's laser/bomb or dh's elite, since you use them for damage primarily)

> > > > * minor aoe heal from water 3 or cleanse from water 5, delayed by ~6 seconds

> > > >

> > > > Basically nothing impactful, nothing instant, nothing that other classes dont have on 1 button press and 1 second cast time at any given moment. Not to mention that half of them come with virtually no dps uptime, comparable only to fb tomes and tempest overloads.

> > > >

> > > > Sword/dagger can make very strong CC chain depending on rotation (air 2, air/earth 3, air 5, earth 4, elite), but most of the time you have easy access to only one of those, and without elite, every other CC comes with 3 sec delay. It also has some minor heal+cleanse on water 5, which we all know by now that comes with big delay.

> > > >

> > > > The only reliable thing you can do as arcane weaver is use geyser proc on rez trait to make downed lava font rotation from other eles a bit more fluid by reviving them faster. There's the utility.

> > > EDIT: Just discovered that ele is no longer good for raids, in that case you can just ignore this post

> >

> > That's an understatement. Ele is no longer good for anything, not just raids.

>

> Still a premier class in WvW.

 

Lul wut?

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Engi: easy access to lots of (aoe) CC, easy access to aoe blinds (not a big factor, but very useful on sab, sloth and events), tons of soft cc (especially good on condi engi), on demand aoe condi clease+small burst heal.

> > > > >

> > > > > Guard: strong cc, aoe blocks (aegis/stab from fb, f3 from dh), aoe heals/cleanses (f2 on both dh and fb), aoe power buff with signet.

> > > > >

> > > > > Weaver (staff):

> > > > > * minor aoe healing skill (rarely used, as strong as regen with no healing power)

> > > > > * aoe cc useful only vs moving targets (exactly where weaver performs poorly so you dont even bring it)

> > > > > * single(ish) target cc delayed by 3-6 seconds (dual air or air/earth 3) or from conjured weapon (as reliable as engi's laser/bomb or dh's elite, since you use them for damage primarily)

> > > > > * minor aoe heal from water 3 or cleanse from water 5, delayed by ~6 seconds

> > > > >

> > > > > Basically nothing impactful, nothing instant, nothing that other classes dont have on 1 button press and 1 second cast time at any given moment. Not to mention that half of them come with virtually no dps uptime, comparable only to fb tomes and tempest overloads.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sword/dagger can make very strong CC chain depending on rotation (air 2, air/earth 3, air 5, earth 4, elite), but most of the time you have easy access to only one of those, and without elite, every other CC comes with 3 sec delay. It also has some minor heal+cleanse on water 5, which we all know by now that comes with big delay.

> > > > >

> > > > > The only reliable thing you can do as arcane weaver is use geyser proc on rez trait to make downed lava font rotation from other eles a bit more fluid by reviving them faster. There's the utility.

> > > > EDIT: Just discovered that ele is no longer good for raids, in that case you can just ignore this post

> > >

> > > That's an understatement. Ele is no longer good for anything, not just raids.

> >

> > Still a premier class in WvW.

>

> Lul wut?

 

Yeah. Ele is an absolute staple in WvW.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > > @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > > > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Engi: easy access to lots of (aoe) CC, easy access to aoe blinds (not a big factor, but very useful on sab, sloth and events), tons of soft cc (especially good on condi engi), on demand aoe condi clease+small burst heal.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Guard: strong cc, aoe blocks (aegis/stab from fb, f3 from dh), aoe heals/cleanses (f2 on both dh and fb), aoe power buff with signet.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Weaver (staff):

> > > > > > * minor aoe healing skill (rarely used, as strong as regen with no healing power)

> > > > > > * aoe cc useful only vs moving targets (exactly where weaver performs poorly so you dont even bring it)

> > > > > > * single(ish) target cc delayed by 3-6 seconds (dual air or air/earth 3) or from conjured weapon (as reliable as engi's laser/bomb or dh's elite, since you use them for damage primarily)

> > > > > > * minor aoe heal from water 3 or cleanse from water 5, delayed by ~6 seconds

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Basically nothing impactful, nothing instant, nothing that other classes dont have on 1 button press and 1 second cast time at any given moment. Not to mention that half of them come with virtually no dps uptime, comparable only to fb tomes and tempest overloads.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sword/dagger can make very strong CC chain depending on rotation (air 2, air/earth 3, air 5, earth 4, elite), but most of the time you have easy access to only one of those, and without elite, every other CC comes with 3 sec delay. It also has some minor heal+cleanse on water 5, which we all know by now that comes with big delay.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The only reliable thing you can do as arcane weaver is use geyser proc on rez trait to make downed lava font rotation from other eles a bit more fluid by reviving them faster. There's the utility.

> > > > > EDIT: Just discovered that ele is no longer good for raids, in that case you can just ignore this post

> > > >

> > > > That's an understatement. Ele is no longer good for anything, not just raids.

> > >

> > > Still a premier class in WvW.

> >

> > Lul wut?

>

> Yeah. Ele is an absolute staple in WvW.

 

No it isn't. Ele is something you like to have around, but not something you want your squad filled with. And it's also something you can live without. The staples of WvW? Firebrands, Scourges and Spellbreakers. You'll see these used everywhere, every time. Long-range artilleries like eles and hammer revs are optional. Those 3? Mandatory.

[Catchyfx.5768]

I would Say equal dmg only if Weaver scepter not staff

Teef is singletarget Staff Weaver is biggest AOE spamer so Staff lower dps because of cleave

[Feanor.2358]

Cleave being so important on fights against a single enemy, right?

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Cleave being so important on fights against a single enemy, right?

 

Thats actually his point i assume. The weapon is better against many targets thus scepter should be better against a single target.

Personally i think thief should be better at small targets and eles better against big ones but the overall damage should be arround the same. And not dmg in a vacuum against a golem i mean in action.

Deadeye also should get better boon support IMO and the mark should be traitable to debuff enemies so that they deal/get more dmg.

DE should sacrifice DPS to to this ofc but it would give them a solid place in a group.

I also think that there should be certain buffs on classes that should not stack.

Like the banner effects. Just that some professions can have only a part of them and warr has all in his banners.

So you can pick a warrior with a banner if strwngth and a DE that gives allies an effect via mark like a Banner of discipline.

Buffs are unstackable so it gives more versatility for comps and more freedom for builds.

Weaver is for PvE in a good place IMO, its mobility is more usable for open PvE but as far as i played it, it is fantastic dmg wise.

Thiefs have more setup/ramp up time, but later on the easier rotation and they are bound to initiative in some cases although this isnt that big of a deal IMO.