i will never understand the balancing team

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> that is a great Problem since years, that so many necro mechanics are build around condi and more or less useless with power. its not just condi Transfer, which is a high Risk /high reward mechanic on condi builds but a high Risk/Zero reward mechanic on power due to the fact that the transferred condis tick with your own condi dmg Attribute, it is also booncorrupt that create conditions that are also mostly useless if you Play power.

>

Exactly reaper got a half transition into power just a couple of number change reaper main sources of condi cleanse is transfer which suck on a power build and tons of chill every where with no actual use ( for reaper chill was the main source of damage at release and same for condi reaper but now you get the 10% damage increase on chilled target which is a joke ) .

[ZDragon.3046]

I dont think they need to match but i feel like some treatment would be nice mostly looking at the ammo charges to shouts across the board when i say this. Even on tempest. Offensive or not fact of the matter is most shouts would be nice with some ammo on them suffer being one of the shouts thats should have it for sure.

 

As far as the number of conditions removed i think its fine as is you also didn't factor in that the only other means for warrior to remove conditions is by swaping weapons or landing burst with IRE

vs

Necro multi xfer burst such as staff 4 or plague sig and having skills like offhand dagger 4, consume conditions, well of power, Unholy Martyr, Shrouded Removal (even though death magic in general is garbage), and Plague Sending.

 

So it think reaper shouts dont need to always match "shake it off" in condition removal etc but i do agree that shouts like stuffer, nothing can save you, maybe you are all weaklings could use a 2 ammo count.

[Obtena.7952]

I still don't get this thread ... Necro's ranking in PVP has nothing to do with Warrior shouts. You can't analyze any skill in a bubble; like it has NO interaction or bearing on other skills you use or how they work together. Nothing presented here makes sense or offers a compelling reason to change it.

 

Given how shouts on Necro are used, they work well. Some of them were meta for a while. I think if anything is illustrated with this thread, it's not that Necro shouts are underpowered. Justifying buffs for things with other overpowered effects is not an honest approach. I see little traction adding ammo count to necro shouts (or any other classes shouts), just because warrior shouts have it. If anything, Warrior shouts are the exception to having ammo count. It just doesn't make sense to think that should be baseline.

[Lahmia.2193]

If you wanted to make a better argument with comparing professions, take Warrior's Pinnacle of Might trait. It increases the power gain from might by 10 and is a minor trait. Necromancer's Awaken the Pain increase the power you gain from might by 10, but decreases the condition damage you gain by 10 and is a major trait.

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> If you wanted to make a better argument with comparing professions, take Warrior's Pinnacle of Might trait. It increases the power gain from might by 10 and is a minor trait. Necromancer's Awaken the Pain increase the power you gain from might by 10, but decreases the condition damage you gain by 10 and is a major trait.

 

well because whenever ANET give necro a buff to one aspect they nerf the other but other profession pure buff for little or no reason at all

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > If you wanted to make a better argument with comparing professions, take Warrior's Pinnacle of Might trait. It increases the power gain from might by 10 and is a minor trait. Necromancer's Awaken the Pain increase the power you gain from might by 10, but decreases the condition damage you gain by 10 and is a major trait.

>

> well because whenever ANET give necro a buff to one aspect they nerf the other but other profession pure buff for little or no reason at all

 

feels so true ?.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > If you wanted to make a better argument with comparing professions, take Warrior's Pinnacle of Might trait. It increases the power gain from might by 10 and is a minor trait. Necromancer's Awaken the Pain increase the power you gain from might by 10, but decreases the condition damage you gain by 10 and is a major trait.

>

> well because whenever ANET give necro a buff to one aspect they nerf the other but other profession pure buff for little or no reason at all

 

... and those are individual class considerations, not based on between-class comparisons. Of course you can't understand it because between-class comparisons aren't sensible to do in the first place.

[Lily.1935]

You know. My opinions and thoughts have changed a lot in the past 6 years. I've changed religious, political and gaming philosophies in that time. I've changed so much when it comes all sorts of things. I've admitted I was wrong on countless occasions and have moved to new ideas that better reflect reality.

 

But one thing that hasn't changed in those six years is my view of the necromancer. Although minor points have changed, the main point remains. **Necromancer is the worst designed class in GW2**. And that opinion hasn't changed. Anyone who remembers, it was one of the very first posts I made back in 2013. And since then, I have not had my opinion shift otherwise. Not for lack of trying mind you.

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> You know. My opinions and thoughts have changed a lot in the past 6 years. I've changed religious, political and gaming philosophies in that time. I've changed so much when it comes all sorts of things. I've admitted I was wrong on countless occasions and have moved to new ideas that better reflect reality.

>

> But one thing that hasn't changed in those six years is my view of the necromancer. Although minor points have changed, the main point remains. **Necromancer is the worst designed class in GW2**. And that opinion hasn't changed. Anyone who remembers, it was one of the very first posts I made back in 2013. And since then, I have not had my opinion shift otherwise. Not for lack of trying mind you.

 

feelsbadman T_T

[Lily.1935]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > You know. My opinions and thoughts have changed a lot in the past 6 years. I've changed religious, political and gaming philosophies in that time. I've changed so much when it comes all sorts of things. I've admitted I was wrong on countless occasions and have moved to new ideas that better reflect reality.

> >

> > But one thing that hasn't changed in those six years is my view of the necromancer. Although minor points have changed, the main point remains. **Necromancer is the worst designed class in GW2**. And that opinion hasn't changed. Anyone who remembers, it was one of the very first posts I made back in 2013. And since then, I have not had my opinion shift otherwise. Not for lack of trying mind you.

>

> feelsbadman T_T

 

Think about it. The necromancer has no defined Fanbase. Half of us HATE with a burning passion what the other wants. Half of use want reaper and more death knight specs while the other half want classing Necromancer such as minion master, curses, support and high party life stealing. The first half gets some of what they want and the second half gets very little of what they want, and when they build something to their liking it gets gutted. The GW1 Necromancer vets do not have a home in GW2. There is NO class that truly represents the play style that fits what they desire from a profession. So the only home we have is Necromancer and it is nothing, not even a shadow of its former self. And the GW2 only fans see the current necromancer and hate any push in the direction of classic necromancer styling. People are literally asking for scourge to be deleted from the game. And that's all coming from necromancer players.

 

I Can't stand reaper players because of this. A good chunk of them either want scourge to be useless or changed to be more like reaper. And I DESPISE that! Scourge is the closest thing to a home the GW1 necro vets have and they would rather us be removed from the game. Well kittens to you too! Their pompous behavior in this regard sours any enjoyment I get out of scourge when they kitten about any sight of us in PvP, WvW, PvE. You want a death knight? Fine, you've got your death knight in reaper. And lets leave it at that and never have another shroud again.

 

Then you have the vets. We LOATHE shroud. We hate it so much because it is the absolute opposite of what we fell in love with in GW1. It isn't the greatness at any cost spec we knew. Necromancer doesn't reanimate corpses, we're okayish at spreading plagues, can't sacrifice health, aren't nearly as glassy as we were in GW1 and aren't a support spec like we were in GW1. GW2 necro is an absolute bastardization of what it originated from and the GW2 fan base LOVES it. While us GW1 players are still asking the question "Where is our spec? Where is our home?". And to top it all off, Shroud only caused more problems than soul reaping did in GW1. It makes the class extraordinarily weak for no reason, takes away tools for no reason, prevents us from functioning in groups for no reason, and is overall a **parasitic mechanic**. People say "You can't be best damage" But it was never about the best damage. It was **EVERYTHING WE CAN'T DO!** Its everything we aren't.

 

I hate shroud. I hate everything about it. I hate the skills, I hate its design I hate what it does to the class. I want it gone. Removed from the game baring reaper. You death knight fanboys can keep your reaper. Everything else though should be removed. Its not a good mechanic. its not well designed. Its parasitic.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

>HATE

So much hate.

Well, the good news is Arenanet may have figured out that balancing may be unintentionally breaking things and has formed a Systems team to moderate and vett the changes.

 

 

[Dace.8173]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > You know. My opinions and thoughts have changed a lot in the past 6 years. I've changed religious, political and gaming philosophies in that time. I've changed so much when it comes all sorts of things. I've admitted I was wrong on countless occasions and have moved to new ideas that better reflect reality.

> > >

> > > But one thing that hasn't changed in those six years is my view of the necromancer. Although minor points have changed, the main point remains. **Necromancer is the worst designed class in GW2**. And that opinion hasn't changed. Anyone who remembers, it was one of the very first posts I made back in 2013. And since then, I have not had my opinion shift otherwise. Not for lack of trying mind you.

> >

> > feelsbadman T_T

>

> Think about it. The necromancer has no defined Fanbase. Half of us HATE with a burning passion what the other wants. Half of use want reaper and more death knight specs while the other half want classing Necromancer such as minion master, curses, support and high party life stealing. The first half gets some of what they want and the second half gets very little of what they want, and when they build something to their liking it gets gutted. The GW1 Necromancer vets do not have a home in GW2. There is NO class that truly represents the play style that fits what they desire from a profession. So the only home we have is Necromancer and it is nothing, not even a shadow of its former self. And the GW2 only fans see the current necromancer and hate any push in the direction of classic necromancer styling. People are literally asking for scourge to be deleted from the game. And that's all coming from necromancer players.

>

> I Can't stand reaper players because of this. A good chunk of them either want scourge to be useless or changed to be more like reaper. And I DESPISE that! Scourge is the closest thing to a home the GW1 necro vets have and they would rather us be removed from the game. Well kittens to you too! Their pompous behavior in this regard sours any enjoyment I get out of scourge when they kitten about any sight of us in PvP, WvW, PvE. You want a death knight? Fine, you've got your death knight in reaper. And lets leave it at that and never have another shroud again.

>

> Then you have the vets. We LOATHE shroud. We hate it so much because it is the absolute opposite of what we fell in love with in GW1. It isn't the greatness at any cost spec we knew. Necromancer doesn't reanimate corpses, we're okayish at spreading plagues, can't sacrifice health, aren't nearly as glassy as we were in GW1 and aren't a support spec like we were in GW1. GW2 necro is an absolute bastardization of what it originated from and the GW2 fan base LOVES it. While us GW1 players are still asking the question "Where is our spec? Where is our home?". And to top it all off, Shroud only caused more problems than soul reaping did in GW1. It makes the class extraordinarily weak for no reason, takes away tools for no reason, prevents us from functioning in groups for no reason, and is overall a **parasitic mechanic**. People say "You can't be best damage" But it was never about the best damage. It was **EVERYTHING WE CAN'T DO!** Its everything we aren't.

>

> I hate shroud. I hate everything about it. I hate the skills, I hate its design I hate what it does to the class. I want it gone. Removed from the game baring reaper. You death knight fanboys can keep your reaper. Everything else though should be removed. Its not a good mechanic. its not well designed. Its parasitic.

 

Necromancer has a defined fanbase. You wrote an entire post that defined it. As for GW1, that game is still around if you want to play it. I don't see anything from ANet in which they state that they were going to deliver the exact same experience as GW1. Most sequels actually attempt to deliver a different experience, one that they feel is an evolution from the previous experience. Of course, this Necromancer doesn't add up to the one you loved in GW1. They decided not to port it over. They designed an entirely new way of handling professions and that was going to create an entirely different play experience than what was had in GW1. This Necromancer was never going to be what folks had in GW1.

 

I have serious doubts that folks who like Reaper want the old GW1 fans removed from the game. I suspect what they really want is for Necromancer to be the Necromancer that was created for GW2 and not a rehash of a game many of them didn't play. They came on board to play this Necromancer and not a Necromancer from a different game. So, of course, they are going to resist changes to Necromancer that make it less like the Necromancer they signed up to play when GW2 launched.

 

This Necromancer isn't a shadow of it's former self because this Necromancer isn't meant to be the GW1 Necromancer. It's meant to be a new Necromancer that is aimed at delivering a new experience to a new crowd. To claim that it's a shadow of its former self would mean that ANet set out to make this Necromancer be like the old one and the design choices they made for this Necromancer makes it clear that they weren't attempting that. Judging this Necromancer to the GW1 is comparing apples to oranges. They fundamentally are not the same profession and odds are strong they were never meant to be the same. The success of this Necromancer was always going to be about how this version of Necromancer fits into this specific game and not how it holds up in relation to another Necromancer from a different game.

[Obtena.7952]

THIS is a timely example of how Anet changes and balances the game:

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

 

Notice the lack of comparisons to other classes. Notice the theme-driven justification for the changes. Notice the lack of references to performance-driven reasoning. Notice the lack of game-mode specific reasons.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> THIS is a timely example of how Anet changes and balances the game:

>

> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

>

> Notice the lack of comparisons to other classes. Notice the theme-driven justification for the changes. Notice the lack of references to performance-driven reasoning. Notice the lack of game-mode specific reasons.

 

How did that comment from the old forum go? It was something like, "Revenant is proof the developers read the Necro sub-forum."

Honestly, Rev needed to be re-focused so I am glad Arenanet agrees with so many players.

Necro is, of course, the boon corruption profession. Unfortunately, boon corruption is only really useful in PvP and WvW so, yeah, that's Necro. Oh, wait, Necro is also the face-roll MM profession... and the "I'm my own pet so I'm going to Moa myself in shroud" profession. Also, let's not forget Necro is also an "I cleave the bananas out of everything with my AoE and love to stack with other Necro's."

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > I don't even understand where 'power elite' label comes from. Anet certainly doesn't designate elites this way and I've seen my share of reaper condi builds that work really good as well. Seems to me that's a made up term to justify how you think Suffer should work; it's contrived point.

> > >

> >

> > in 2017-11-07 balance patch they heavily nerfed condi reaper dmg sources and buffed power dmg pushing the elite into power

>

> Yes they did, but that doesn't change the fact that Reaper isn't a 'power elite'. It's a label people invent to twist arguments in their favour. Certainly, no decision or changes should be made that push reaper further into such a focused theme.

 

Actually, you're wrong... Reaper is meant to be a power-based class from conception. Although that failed and throughout the duration of HoT it was played as a condi class, with them having done some hard changes (and nerfs) to the condi aspect (and the sustainability of the class), and pushing towards power damage to fit their vision.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

apples to oranges

 

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> THIS is a timely example of how Anet changes and balances the game:

>

> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

>

> Notice the lack of comparisons to other classes. Notice the theme-driven justification for the changes. Notice the lack of references to performance-driven reasoning. Notice the lack of game-mode specific reasons.

 

I would say this is just PR to drum up hype since we have things that directly contradict your points like:

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > Shouldn't nerfs come hand in hand with compensating buffs to keep build diversity alive?

>

> Most often_nerfing a completely dominant build actually creates __more__ build diversity.

>

> In addition to keeping build diversity alive on a single profession we try to ensure build and role diversity across all professions.

> Sometimes that means nerfing a build on one profession so that other professions can have a role in that same space.

 

and:

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> It is certainly an issue. -_-

> We try to keep professions within a close range of each other for particular roles. We don't always succeed, but we keep honing in on it.

> The goal is NOT to make them perfectly equal because then you'd take them based on the next most useful secondary thing they do. Instead we try to keep them at different levels of utility for damage, support, sustain, survivability, etc, so they are less comparable with notable tradeoffs.

 

and:

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

 

and:> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

 

>* _We use metrics such as play-use at the high-end in a game mode. e.g. How many necromancers are using a particular utility/trait/etc in high-end PvP._

 

 

 

The mention of roles and over-performance being shaved to help build/ role diversity within and between classes. Notice the mention of them looking at high end statistics. Despite how you try to deny it Anet do look at these things ( inter-class relations, the meta etc etc ) when making decision about balance which is evident from their own words.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > I don't even understand where 'power elite' label comes from. Anet certainly doesn't designate elites this way and I've seen my share of reaper condi builds that work really good as well. Seems to me that's a made up term to justify how you think Suffer should work; it's contrived point.

> > > >

> > >

> > > in 2017-11-07 balance patch they heavily nerfed condi reaper dmg sources and buffed power dmg pushing the elite into power

> >

> > Yes they did, but that doesn't change the fact that Reaper isn't a 'power elite'. It's a label people invent to twist arguments in their favour. Certainly, no decision or changes should be made that push reaper further into such a focused theme.

>

> Actually, you're wrong... Reaper is meant to be a power-based class from conception. Although that failed and throughout the duration of HoT it was played as a condi class, with them having done some hard changes (and nerfs) to the condi aspect (and the sustainability of the class), and pushing towards power damage to fit their vision.

 

I have to agree with ReaverKane on this, though I have been putting it off. Reaper has an awesome trait in Deathly Chill that flips a switch turning Reaper into a Viper's build adding bleed damage. Without that one grandmaster trait, every condition that Reaper naturally puts out supports power builds equally to condition damage builds. However, condition damage for greatsword and shouts without Deathly Chill is severely lacking. That is why I consider Reaper a power elite similar to old dagger/wh/staff PvP builds which used corruptions, chills, and condi-bursts more to immobilize and impair than to dps.

 

Reaper works well and supports a wide range of builds, better than Scourge IMO. Part of Reaper's success is because it is not tied to either scepter dps or barrier support, both of which require highly focused builds and are not very compatible with each other due to traits.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > You know. My opinions and thoughts have changed a lot in the past 6 years. I've changed religious, political and gaming philosophies in that time. I've changed so much when it comes all sorts of things. I've admitted I was wrong on countless occasions and have moved to new ideas that better reflect reality.

> > > >

> > > > But one thing that hasn't changed in those six years is my view of the necromancer. Although minor points have changed, the main point remains. **Necromancer is the worst designed class in GW2**. And that opinion hasn't changed. Anyone who remembers, it was one of the very first posts I made back in 2013. And since then, I have not had my opinion shift otherwise. Not for lack of trying mind you.

> > >

> > > feelsbadman T_T

> >

> > Think about it. The necromancer has no defined Fanbase. Half of us HATE with a burning passion what the other wants. Half of use want reaper and more death knight specs while the other half want classing Necromancer such as minion master, curses, support and high party life stealing. The first half gets some of what they want and the second half gets very little of what they want, and when they build something to their liking it gets gutted. The GW1 Necromancer vets do not have a home in GW2. There is NO class that truly represents the play style that fits what they desire from a profession. So the only home we have is Necromancer and it is nothing, not even a shadow of its former self. And the GW2 only fans see the current necromancer and hate any push in the direction of classic necromancer styling. People are literally asking for scourge to be deleted from the game. And that's all coming from necromancer players.

> >

> > I Can't stand reaper players because of this. A good chunk of them either want scourge to be useless or changed to be more like reaper. And I DESPISE that! Scourge is the closest thing to a home the GW1 necro vets have and they would rather us be removed from the game. Well kittens to you too! Their pompous behavior in this regard sours any enjoyment I get out of scourge when they kitten about any sight of us in PvP, WvW, PvE. You want a death knight? Fine, you've got your death knight in reaper. And lets leave it at that and never have another shroud again.

> >

> > Then you have the vets. We LOATHE shroud. We hate it so much because it is the absolute opposite of what we fell in love with in GW1. It isn't the greatness at any cost spec we knew. Necromancer doesn't reanimate corpses, we're okayish at spreading plagues, can't sacrifice health, aren't nearly as glassy as we were in GW1 and aren't a support spec like we were in GW1. GW2 necro is an absolute bastardization of what it originated from and the GW2 fan base LOVES it. While us GW1 players are still asking the question "Where is our spec? Where is our home?". And to top it all off, Shroud only caused more problems than soul reaping did in GW1. It makes the class extraordinarily weak for no reason, takes away tools for no reason, prevents us from functioning in groups for no reason, and is overall a **parasitic mechanic**. People say "You can't be best damage" But it was never about the best damage. It was **EVERYTHING WE CAN'T DO!** Its everything we aren't.

> >

> > I hate shroud. I hate everything about it. I hate the skills, I hate its design I hate what it does to the class. I want it gone. Removed from the game baring reaper. You death knight fanboys can keep your reaper. Everything else though should be removed. Its not a good mechanic. its not well designed. Its parasitic.

>

> Necromancer has a defined fanbase. You wrote an entire post that defined it. As for GW1, that game is still around if you want to play it. I don't see anything from ANet in which they state that they were going to deliver the exact same experience as GW1. Most sequels actually attempt to deliver a different experience, one that they feel is an evolution from the previous experience. Of course, this Necromancer doesn't add up to the one you loved in GW1. They decided not to port it over. They designed an entirely new way of handling professions and that was going to create an entirely different play experience than what was had in GW1. This Necromancer was never going to be what folks had in GW1.

>

> I have serious doubts that folks who like Reaper want the old GW1 fans removed from the game. I suspect what they really want is for Necromancer to be the Necromancer that was created for GW2 and not a rehash of a game many of them didn't play. They came on board to play this Necromancer and not a Necromancer from a different game. So, of course, they are going to resist changes to Necromancer that make it less like the Necromancer they signed up to play when GW2 launched.

>

> This Necromancer isn't a shadow of it's former self because this Necromancer isn't meant to be the GW1 Necromancer. It's meant to be a new Necromancer that is aimed at delivering a new experience to a new crowd. To claim that it's a shadow of its former self would mean that ANet set out to make this Necromancer be like the old one and the design choices they made for this Necromancer makes it clear that they weren't attempting that. Judging this Necromancer to the GW1 is comparing apples to oranges. They fundamentally are not the same profession and odds are strong they were never meant to be the same. The success of this Necromancer was always going to be about how this version of Necromancer fits into this specific game and not how it holds up in relation to another Necromancer from a different game.

 

Oh yes the reaper players do. They've said it to me personally multiple times. Much to my disgust. And there is a certain expectation of a new game in the same series. You need to hit on many of the same notes, to offer an improvement on what the previous game gave players. It isn't conducive to change everything the fans knew and loved for the sake of it. Especially when arena net themselves have stated that the reason they created revenant was to fill a play style gap gw2 had. And the necromancer 0lay style is still sorely missing from the game. And thousands of players are left without their playstyle when anet has made it their goal to include everyone for the game. There is supposed to be something for everyone and it isn't. If they didn't want necromancer's play style then they shouldn't have named the class necromancer. And it was clear I'll n development that they did want that style of game play but decided not to include it for whatever reason.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> >HATE

> So much hate.

> Well, the good news is Arenanet may have figured out that balancing may be unintentionally breaking things and has formed a Systems team to moderate and vett the changes.

>

>

 

Doubtful. I'm just waiting for the next mmo that gives me the play style I want. As extremely rare as that style is.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > Reaper have as much value for condi build than he got for power build. If you look objectively at the reaper, you'd see that every trait can be as valuable for condi build than they can be valuable for power builds. Like Sephylon said, the reaper is more a brawler, a melee cleave spec that the necromancer badly needed in the vanilla game. Ultimately an e-spec shouldn't restrict you in your build but expand what you can do in every possible way and reaper do that for the necromancer.

> >

> > That will be true if the didn't nerf Deathly Chill and finisher and poison duration on Soul Spiral which was the main dmg sources for Condi reaper .

> > Now condi reaper won't get you out of silver in PvP and pve power reaper is easier and give more dmg .

>

> Even with this nerf, condi reaper's potential dps is close to power reaper's potential dps. Not great, yes, but no dps build on necromancer can be qualified as "great" anyway. PvE condi reaper should still hoover around 28/29k dps, You can still benefit from core survivability/sustain linked to conditions on reapers (you know? the infamous unkillable PvE reaper minion master.)

>

> As for PvP, if you count on a build to get you out on a specific rank list, then you are doing it wrong. PvP tiers are less about build than personnal skill. Most of the time, a good player with an unexpected build can go far higher than an average player with a "meta build".

 

Gonna say it straight: skill means way less than a lot of people suggest these days. Even at my best, I attribute most of my successes today not from me playing well while playing off-meta but because of major misplays coming from my opponents.

 

Most of the success people find is on builds. It's not so much the case at the very very top, but you can put a top-tier player on a bad build and they'll usually still lose or go 50/50 to a mediocre player on a dominant one.

[Catchyfx.5768]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > >HATE

> > So much hate.

> > Well, the good news is Arenanet may have figured out that balancing may be unintentionally breaking things and has formed a Systems team to moderate and vett the changes.

> >

> >

>

> Doubtful. I'm just waiting for the next mmo that gives me the play style I want. As extremely rare as that style is.

 

yeah same, there is something new IDK the name but it looks like it will be lot of fun. Still in development.

I like GW2 as game but hate necro for being b*tch class that need in PvP/WvW pimp because she can not take care of herself. And in PvE is lmao.

Glitch bugged and weak traited. BUT THE THEME WHY I LIKE THE THEME!?

[Aetatis.5418]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > THIS is a timely example of how Anet changes and balances the game:

> >

> > https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

> >

> > Notice the lack of comparisons to other classes. Notice the theme-driven justification for the changes. Notice the lack of references to performance-driven reasoning. Notice the lack of game-mode specific reasons.

>

> ... "Revenant is proof the developers read the Necro sub-forum."...

 

made me laugh, because of the upcoming changes to the herald. more boon strips... more group-siphoning (probably stronger than vampiric presence. funny enough renegade already has a siphoning elite. core revenant has stronger, but more situational, siphoning than necro too).

 

like i dont know how these changes will affect pvp/wvw/raids/fractals, but just from the wording it reads like "more reasons to _not take a necro into pve_ because some other professions does it equally good BUT brings more group support/dps on top". *sigh*

 

we'll see

[Obtena.7952]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > I don't even understand where 'power elite' label comes from. Anet certainly doesn't designate elites this way and I've seen my share of reaper condi builds that work really good as well. Seems to me that's a made up term to justify how you think Suffer should work; it's contrived point.

> > > >

> > >

> > > in 2017-11-07 balance patch they heavily nerfed condi reaper dmg sources and buffed power dmg pushing the elite into power

> >

> > Yes they did, but that doesn't change the fact that Reaper isn't a 'power elite'. It's a label people invent to twist arguments in their favour. Certainly, no decision or changes should be made that push reaper further into such a focused theme.

>

> Actually, you're wrong... Reaper is meant to be a power-based class from conception. Although that failed and throughout the duration of HoT it was played as a condi class, with them having done some hard changes (and nerfs) to the condi aspect (and the sustainability of the class), and pushing towards power damage to fit their vision.

 

That doesn't make sense; Anet never described Reaper as a 'power-based' class IIRC and it doesn't make sense to say it failed and throughtout the duration of HoT, it was played as a condi class. Maybe that's true for you and a few others, but nothing about Reaper made everyone think it was a failure as a power build and switched to a condi build. That's definitely not Anet saying that.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > THIS is a timely example of how Anet changes and balances the game:

> >

> > https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

> >

> > Notice the lack of comparisons to other classes. Notice the theme-driven justification for the changes. Notice the lack of references to performance-driven reasoning. Notice the lack of game-mode specific reasons.

>

> I would say this is just PR to drum up hype since we have things that directly contradict your points like:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > Shouldn't nerfs come hand in hand with compensating buffs to keep build diversity alive?

> >

> > Most often_nerfing a completely dominant build actually creates __more__ build diversity.

> >

> > In addition to keeping build diversity alive on a single profession we try to ensure build and role diversity across all professions.

> > Sometimes that means nerfing a build on one profession so that other professions can have a role in that same space.

>

> and:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > It is certainly an issue. -_-

> > We try to keep professions within a close range of each other for particular roles. We don't always succeed, but we keep honing in on it.

> > The goal is NOT to make them perfectly equal because then you'd take them based on the next most useful secondary thing they do. Instead we try to keep them at different levels of utility for damage, support, sustain, survivability, etc, so they are less comparable with notable tradeoffs.

>

> and:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > More detailed answer, we've resisting just buffing other heal specs as we don't want to get into a meta where healing has way too much influence. We're more likely to address this issue by continuing to carefully shave Firebrand until we feel it's on par with the other specs.

>

> and:> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

>

> >* _We use metrics such as play-use at the high-end in a game mode. e.g. How many necromancers are using a particular utility/trait/etc in high-end PvP._

>

>

>

> The mention of roles and over-performance being shaved to help build/ role diversity within and between classes. Notice the mention of them looking at high end statistics. Despite how you try to deny it Anet do look at these things ( inter-class relations, the meta etc etc ) when making decision about balance which is evident from their own words.

 

I'm not seeing a contradiction. The link is about how Anet balances based on theme. Anet hasn't provided any information in those comments about what they think close range of performance actually is; in fact, one comment actually indicates they try to make it NOT equal ... that supports the grand picture that Anet isn't a Meta balancing kind of bunch. I have no doubt Anet uses metrics like play use at the high end in a game mode. That doesn't mean they don't balance according to a theme.