NERF MESMER

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"breno.5423" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > becomes more useless than a rev

>

> Rev useless?

> What game are you playing?

 

I Assume the same you are. I have only seen less than a handful of competent rev's. Imo they still need a slight buff as I believe part of it is the class itself.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"breno.5423" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > becomes more useless than a rev

> >

> > Rev useless?

> > What game are you playing?

>

> I Assume the same you are. I have only seen less than a handful of competent rev's. Imo they still need a slight buff as I believe part of it is the class itself.

 

Dunno man, they seem pretty solid at what they do, give them viable Condi clear on the meta Herald and God forbid most roaming builds lol

[art.1402]

> @"StabbersTheThird.6053" said:

> My personal problem is that Mesmer is too safe. If I stun a Mesmer, there's nothing to stop them from popping all of their shatter skills in retaliation (which apparently on Chrono and Mirage, apply a kitTON of conditions). Mesmer is the only class I know that actively punishes the player engaging the Mesmer to an extent that engaging a Mesmer actually feels worse than simply retaliating after being hit. Stun, get stunned. Gun them down, they get stealth and a clone. Manage to get on them close? It's k, distortion then daze then they open up on you and you die.

>

>

> Nothing feels good to play against a Mesmer except core Necro, another Mesmer and condition trap ranger. Both of the non-mesmer builds are HORRENDOUS against just about every other build in the game. I honestly think adding some kind of cast restriction to their F1-F4 would do everything necessary to bring them in line. Being 100% bursted from stealth without any chance at counterplay on a class that also is the safest by default (without any abilities, utilities, runes, sigils, or otherwise- Mesmer is the safest profession in the game) feels BAD.

>

>

> I know I'll get shot down by a nuclear missile from class-carried Mesmers, but I needed to put my 2 cents in. I desperately wish that the shatter skills had a 1/4 cast time on them. Heck, a 1/8 would be fine idgaf. Just stop punishing ME for your awful awareness.

 

This. #EndThread

[viquing.8254]

@ those who complain about mesmers :

maybe you can have a look at PvP class representation to see who has the most usefull tools today ?

With last season's top 250 who look like : gards(~27%), rev/engi/war(~17% each), ranger(~6%), mesmer/necro(~5%each), thief/elem(~3% each).

Maybe..., it's juste a ..... l2P issue ? (Or you are doing something with your classe whereas she is not design for.)

 

[FyzE.3472]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> @ those who complain about mesmers :

> maybe you can have a look at PvP class representation to see who has the most usefull tools today ?

> With last season's top 250 who look like : gards(~27%), rev/engi/war(~17% each), ranger(~6%), mesmer/necro(~5%each), thief/elem(~3% each).

> Maybe..., it's juste a ..... l2P issue ? (Or you are doing something with your classe whereas she is not design for.)

>

 

You can't have stats as your only excuse, you know that, right? This is just sad... take off your pink glasses already please :)

 

Edit: or better yet, go on a rev and fight a mesmer. If your "proof" is legit, you should win. Have fun :D

Oh and every time you're about to brake your keyboard in two, just remember to l2p.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @ those who complain about mesmers :

> > maybe you can have a look at PvP class representation to see who has the most usefull tools today ?

> > With last season's top 250 who look like : gards(~27%), rev/engi/war(~17% each), ranger(~6%), mesmer/necro(~5%each), thief/elem(~3% each).

> > Maybe..., it's juste a ..... l2P issue ? (Or you are doing something with your classe whereas she is not design for.)

> >

>

> You can't have stats as your only excuse, you know that, right? This is just sad... take off your pink glasses already please :)

Actually, stats based on high-level PvP mean a LOT more than anectodal evidence. Like, it's not even comparable. I would be interested in the source of that information though, as mesmer seems incredibly low for me nevertheless.

>

> Edit: or better yet, go on a rev and fight a mesmer. If your "proof" is legit, you should win. Have fun :D

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense. Just because a class / build counters another one, it doesn't mean it's overpowered. For example core ranger pretty much hard counters most necro builds, yet it's not even close to overpowered.

Rev has a hard time against condi mirage due to the lack of condi cleanse but can easily eat a power mirage alive, for example. Also I've seen revs outplaying condi mirages easily, but obviously that never happens in lower skill divisions.

[Evil.1580]

Mesmer should be buffed, not nerfed.

I wreck them with my ele in every mode. Sometimes I beat 2 mesmers at the same time with whatever ELE build I want.

Considering ele is one of the weakest professions and most nerfed atm, I think Mesmers should be buffed a little.

Nerfs shouldn't be even part of the discussion.

Thanks!

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following:

 

1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge.

2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1.

 

I contest that no one can do this.

 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following:

>

> 1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge.

> 2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1.

>

> I contest that no one can do this.

>

 

1.) Stunbreak on dodge is only if you trait it. You lose DPS when you take this. Not much different that people doing damage on dodge, or healing when they dodge. With the amount of CC now a days it shouldn't be as big of an issue. It may even be a trade-off due to the lack of any "decent" condi clears that most other classes have.

 

2.) If you know what a Mirage is by definition, and look at what the class represents, you would already know your answer. Asking this seems moot. Why does daredevil get 3 dodges? Why do guardians get passive defensive abilities? Think about that. (hint, look at their class and theme)

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following:

> >

> > 1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge.

> > 2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1.

> >

> > I contest that no one can do this.

> >

>

 

Challenge accepted

 

1.) Stunbreak on dodge is only if you trait it. You lose DPS when you take this. Not much different that people doing damage on dodge, or healing when they dodge. With the amount of CC now a days it shouldn't be as big of an issue. It may even be a trade-off due to the lack of any "decent" condi clears that most other classes have.

2.) If you know what a Mirage is by definition, and look at what the class represents, you would already know your answer. Asking this seems moot. Why does daredevil get 3 dodges? Why do guardians get passive defensive abilities? Think about that. (hint, look at their class and theme)

 

Have a great day bud, no contest. What do I win?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following:

>

> 1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge.

> 2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1.

>

> I contest that no one can do this.

>

 

But?? Why? Mesmer never had an issue before with getting out of stuns so why rely on EM now? Also why take that trait and lose out on a lot of dps.

[viquing.8254]

> @"FyzE.3472" say :

>You can't have stats as your only excuse, you know that, right?

It's probably better for reference than player "feelings".

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following:

> > >

> > > 1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge.

> > > 2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1.

> > >

> > > I contest that no one can do this.

> > >

> >

>

> Challenge accepted

>

> 1.) Stunbreak on dodge is only if you trait it. You lose DPS when you take this. Not much different that people doing damage on dodge, or healing when they dodge. With the amount of CC now a days it shouldn't be as big of an issue. It may even be a trade-off due to the lack of any "decent" condi clears that most other classes have.

> 2.) If you know what a Mirage is by definition, and look at what the class represents, you would already know your answer. Asking this seems moot. Why does daredevil get 3 dodges? Why do guardians get passive defensive abilities? Think about that. (hint, look at their class and theme)

>

> Have a great day bud, no contest. What do I win?

 

The fact that you have to try and argue it should exist this way because of the lore and not any legitimate balance reason is proof that you are fully aware that it's busted.

 

Stop being intellectually dishonest.

 

 

 

[viquing.8254]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" say :

>But?? Why? Mesmer never had an issue before with getting out of stuns so why rely on EM now? Also why take that trait and lose out on a lot of dps.

1) There is many axe mesmers who choose IH for the ambush.

2) There are powercreep => more aoe CC (FB, Holo, SB, etc.) environnement.

3) If you build all your utility bar with breakstunt, you lose to much efficiency to be viable.

4) I think that 75% of mesmers who use this trait, use it more about the condi clear on evade aspect than breakstunt. (because you can evade during CC or jaunt who is enough to evade burst btw.)

 

BTW other class have other way to evade being CCed.

Between mesmer who breakstunt on dodge or other class who have easy stability uptime (or block/aegis/aoeProtection/Breakstunt skills...), I prefere fight a EM mesmer who will lose his endurance regen and then can be killed the next burst than other spec who can rotate for age their anti-CC.

 

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" say :

> >But?? Why? Mesmer never had an issue before with getting out of stuns so why rely on EM now? Also why take that trait and lose out on a lot of dps.

> 1) There is many axe mesmers who choose IH for the ambush.

> 2) There are powercreep => more aoe CC (FB, Holo, SB, etc.) environnement.

> 3) If you build all your utility bar with breakstunt, you lose to much efficiency to be viable.

> 4) I think that 75% of mesmers who use this trait, use it more about the condi clear on evade aspect than breakstunt. (because you can evade during CC or jaunt who is enough to evade burst btw.)

>

> BTW other class have other way to evade being CCed.

> Between mesmer who breakstunt on dodge or other class who have easy stability uptime (or block/aegis/aoeProtection/Breakstunt skills...), I prefere fight a EM mesmer who will lose his endurance regen and then can be killed the next burst than other spec who can rotate for age their anti-CC.

>

 

That's my point. Why would any mesmer use EM.

[phokus.8934]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" say :

> > >But?? Why? Mesmer never had an issue before with getting out of stuns so why rely on EM now? Also why take that trait and lose out on a lot of dps.

> > 1) There is many axe mesmers who choose IH for the ambush.

> > 2) There are powercreep => more aoe CC (FB, Holo, SB, etc.) environnement.

> > 3) If you build all your utility bar with breakstunt, you lose to much efficiency to be viable.

> > 4) I think that 75% of mesmers who use this trait, use it more about the condi clear on evade aspect than breakstunt. (because you can evade during CC or jaunt who is enough to evade burst btw.)

> >

> > BTW other class have other way to evade being CCed.

> > Between mesmer who breakstunt on dodge or other class who have easy stability uptime (or block/aegis/aoeProtection/Breakstunt skills...), I prefere fight a EM mesmer who will lose his endurance regen and then can be killed the next burst than other spec who can rotate for age their anti-CC.

> >

>

> That's my point. Why would any mesmer use EM.

 

The same reason why the "Get out of jail for free" card exists in Monopoly.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" say :

> > > >But?? Why? Mesmer never had an issue before with getting out of stuns so why rely on EM now? Also why take that trait and lose out on a lot of dps.

> > > 1) There is many axe mesmers who choose IH for the ambush.

> > > 2) There are powercreep => more aoe CC (FB, Holo, SB, etc.) environnement.

> > > 3) If you build all your utility bar with breakstunt, you lose to much efficiency to be viable.

> > > 4) I think that 75% of mesmers who use this trait, use it more about the condi clear on evade aspect than breakstunt. (because you can evade during CC or jaunt who is enough to evade burst btw.)

> > >

> > > BTW other class have other way to evade being CCed.

> > > Between mesmer who breakstunt on dodge or other class who have easy stability uptime (or block/aegis/aoeProtection/Breakstunt skills...), I prefere fight a EM mesmer who will lose his endurance regen and then can be killed the next burst than other spec who can rotate for age their anti-CC.

> > >

> >

> > That's my point. Why would any mesmer use EM.

>

> The same reason why the "Get out of jail for free" card exists in Monopoly.

 

Yeah, but you already have mirage cloak which pretty much stops a stun burst anyway, you already have jaunt and blink, staff 4#? As jail free get out. You're gimping your self with em now. I prefer fighting mirage with EM because it's never really saved them, on warrior thief and or holo it's never stun burst that's killed them, it's things like whirling attack, throw axe, or other cheap things.

[phokus.8934]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" say :

> > > > >But?? Why? Mesmer never had an issue before with getting out of stuns so why rely on EM now? Also why take that trait and lose out on a lot of dps.

> > > > 1) There is many axe mesmers who choose IH for the ambush.

> > > > 2) There are powercreep => more aoe CC (FB, Holo, SB, etc.) environnement.

> > > > 3) If you build all your utility bar with breakstunt, you lose to much efficiency to be viable.

> > > > 4) I think that 75% of mesmers who use this trait, use it more about the condi clear on evade aspect than breakstunt. (because you can evade during CC or jaunt who is enough to evade burst btw.)

> > > >

> > > > BTW other class have other way to evade being CCed.

> > > > Between mesmer who breakstunt on dodge or other class who have easy stability uptime (or block/aegis/aoeProtection/Breakstunt skills...), I prefere fight a EM mesmer who will lose his endurance regen and then can be killed the next burst than other spec who can rotate for age their anti-CC.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That's my point. Why would any mesmer use EM.

> >

> > The same reason why the "Get out of jail for free" card exists in Monopoly.

>

> Yeah, but you already have mirage cloak which pretty much stops a stun burst anyway, you already have jaunt and blink, staff 4#? As jail free get out. You're gimping your self with em now. I prefer fighting mirage with EM because it's never really saved them, on warrior thief and or holo it's never stun burst that's killed them, it's things like whirling attack, throw axe, or other cheap things.

 

But you're also forgetting that EM cures a condition with every dodge and with high endurance regen through False Oasis and Energy sigils, they have really good condi clear along side torch 4 and weapon swap. EM is still fantastic and you're not gimping yourself by taking it over IH. But this is a good problem to have - choosing between EM and IH.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > > Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following:

> > > >

> > > > 1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge.

> > > > 2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1.

> > > >

> > > > I contest that no one can do this.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > Challenge accepted

> >

> > 1.) Stunbreak on dodge is only if you trait it. You lose DPS when you take this. Not much different that people doing damage on dodge, or healing when they dodge. With the amount of CC now a days it shouldn't be as big of an issue. It may even be a trade-off due to the lack of any "decent" condi clears that most other classes have.

> > 2.) If you know what a Mirage is by definition, and look at what the class represents, you would already know your answer. Asking this seems moot. Why does daredevil get 3 dodges? Why do guardians get passive defensive abilities? Think about that. (hint, look at their class and theme)

> >

> > Have a great day bud, no contest. What do I win?

>

> The fact that you have to try and argue it should exist this way because of the lore and not any legitimate balance reason is proof that you are fully aware that it's busted.

>

> Stop being intellectually dishonest.

>

>

>

 

No one mentioned lore, just the theme that the creators intended. It fits with the class.

 

Also I thought we were debating not arguing. If you wish to argue, by all means, however I will then bow out as I don't care for arguing.

 

You mention of balance reasons and looking at my comment, im pretty sure I mentioned a trade off with examples. It can even be asked why a Daredevil gets a 3rd piece to their endurance bar, giving them more dodges. By the sounds of it, you are looking for a "specific argument" so please, specify what it is you are looking for so I can retort.

 

Lastly...im rarely dishonest in these forums so if I were you, I would get off the high horse and instead of looking for an "Argument", keep it as a debate and state an intelligent rebuttal so we can discuss this politely and professionally (which I am game for)

 

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" say :

> > >But?? Why? Mesmer never had an issue before with getting out of stuns so why rely on EM now? Also why take that trait and lose out on a lot of dps.

> > 1) There is many axe mesmers who choose IH for the ambush.

> > 2) There are powercreep => more aoe CC (FB, Holo, SB, etc.) environnement.

> > 3) If you build all your utility bar with breakstunt, you lose to much efficiency to be viable.

> > 4) I think that 75% of mesmers who use this trait, use it more about the condi clear on evade aspect than breakstunt. (because you can evade during CC or jaunt who is enough to evade burst btw.)

> >

> > BTW other class have other way to evade being CCed.

> > Between mesmer who breakstunt on dodge or other class who have easy stability uptime (or block/aegis/aoeProtection/Breakstunt skills...), I prefere fight a EM mesmer who will lose his endurance regen and then can be killed the next burst than other spec who can rotate for age their anti-CC.

> >

>

> That's my point. Why would any mesmer use EM.

 

Personally - regular condi clear.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting.

 

Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me?

 

That's the point?

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> Or players could learn to delay their burst literally one second when the Mirage has nothing left to dodge with.

 

And then get your burst stunned by sword ambush. Great strategy.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting.

>

> Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me?

>

> That's the point?

 

so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth:

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting.

> >

> > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me?

> >

> > That's the point?

>

> so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth:

 

why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM

 

:o

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > Mirage can dodge while stunned regardless of traiting.

> > >

> > > Wait a second to complete my burst so the can finish "dodging", while they do their f-bomb on me?

> > >

> > > That's the point?

> >

> > so you know its coming but eat it anyway :open_mouth:

>

> why should i have to eat it if i get a well place stun, when they should use a break and blink away or waste blur? should be tied to EM

>

> :o

 

Are you Jannie’s alt?