NERF MESMER

[LazySummer.2568]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following:

> > >

> > > 1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge.

> > > 2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1.

> > >

> > > I contest that no one can do this.

> > >

> >

>

> Challenge accepted

>

> 1.) Stunbreak on dodge is only if you trait it. You lose DPS when you take this. Not much different that people doing damage on dodge, or healing when they dodge. With the amount of CC now a days it shouldn't be as big of an issue. It may even be a trade-off due to the lack of any "decent" condi clears that most other classes have.

> 2.) If you know what a Mirage is by definition, and look at what the class represents, you would already know your answer. Asking this seems moot. Why does daredevil get 3 dodges? Why do guardians get passive defensive abilities? Think about that. (hint, look at their class and theme)

>

> Have a great day bud, no contest. What do I win?

 

If we balance by theme, Daredevils should get a stunbreak on dodge too and maybe make it a 1200 range teleport dodge instead of just removing movement impairing conditions. They'll lose dps from not traiting Bound.

 

Btw how does stunbreak on dodge fit Mirage's theme if it's supposed to be a class that confuses enemies? Infinite Horizon fits perfectly while this Stunbreak on dodge doesn't.

 

And here's the official description of Mirage:

 

>The mirage moves through battle like shifting sand, **cloaking themselves rather than dodging attacks**. Their graceful, swirling axes and prismatic mirrors are as deceptively beautiful as they are deadly.

 

it looks like even ANet themeselves can't get their theme for Mirage straight (or they probably just love their mesmers).

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > > Honestly any attempts to defend the class as balanced should have to answer the following:

> > > >

> > > > 1. Please explain why Mesmer should have stunbreak on dodge.

> > > > 2. Please explain why each and every other class should not without logically contradicting your answer to #1.

> > > >

> > > > I contest that no one can do this.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > Challenge accepted

> >

> > 1.) Stunbreak on dodge is only if you trait it. You lose DPS when you take this. Not much different that people doing damage on dodge, or healing when they dodge. With the amount of CC now a days it shouldn't be as big of an issue. It may even be a trade-off due to the lack of any "decent" condi clears that most other classes have.

> > 2.) If you know what a Mirage is by definition, and look at what the class represents, you would already know your answer. Asking this seems moot. Why does daredevil get 3 dodges? Why do guardians get passive defensive abilities? Think about that. (hint, look at their class and theme)

> >

> > Have a great day bud, no contest. What do I win?

>

> If we balance by theme, Daredevils should get a stunbreak on dodge too and maybe make it a 1200 range teleport dodge instead of just removing movement impairing conditions. They'll lose dps from not traiting Bound.

>

> Btw how does stunbreak on dodge fit Mirage's theme if it's supposed to be a class that confuses enemies? Infinite Horizon fits perfectly while this Stunbreak on dodge doesn't.

>

> And here's the official description of Mirage:

>

> >The mirage moves through battle like shifting sand, **cloaking themselves rather than dodging attacks**. Their graceful, swirling axes and prismatic mirrors are as deceptively beautiful as they are deadly.

>

> it looks like even ANet themeselves can't get their theme for Mirage straight (or they probably just love their mesmers).

 

A mirage is something that is not there even though by all other appearances it is. I don't think EM is a positive trait and it should be reworked, but come on that's not that hard to translate thematically. If you stun someone the assumption is that they will stay there, not be elsewhere.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > Mirage should not be able to dodge while cc'd, just like EVERY other class. The stunbreak on Elusive Mind definitely needs to be removed. The entire trait could be reworked to:

> >

> > _"Elusive Mind - Deception skills gain 20% reduced recharge and remove 1 (or 2) condition(s)."_

> >

> > Which is a much more balanced iteration compared to the current one. If the new EM removes 2 conditions, Jaunt would have its single condition removal taken off so it doesn't cleanse 3 conditions every 8 seconds. If it only removes 1, keep the single condition removal on Jaunt. I think a single condition removal on the new EM is the more balanced option.

> >

> > As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does.

>

> If deception skills weren't so horribly meh you might be on to something.

 

I think they would be pretty strong with 20% cdr and a condition removal.

 

1. False Oasis and Jaunt are both already very strong. With the new EM, the heal will be a 20s cd 8k base heal without healing power. Jaunt will go on a 24 second cooldown per charge.

2. Illusionary Ambush sees use in a few builds as well. With the new EM, it will become a 16s cd target break + condition removal.

3. Sand Through Glass becomes a 20s cd stun break, double evade (counting the Mirage Mirror it leaves behind), and a condition removal.

4. Mirage Advance would become a 20s cd 900 range teleport that blinds and can return you back to your original position + a condition removal.

5. Crystal Sands is pretty bad but it will become a 16s cd 6 confusion burst that leaves a Mirage Mirror behind and cleanses a condition.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > Mirage should not be able to dodge while cc'd, just like EVERY other class. The stunbreak on Elusive Mind definitely needs to be removed. The entire trait could be reworked to:

> > >

> > > _"Elusive Mind - Deception skills gain 20% reduced recharge and remove 1 (or 2) condition(s)."_

> > >

> > > Which is a much more balanced iteration compared to the current one. If the new EM removes 2 conditions, Jaunt would have its single condition removal taken off so it doesn't cleanse 3 conditions every 8 seconds. If it only removes 1, keep the single condition removal on Jaunt. I think a single condition removal on the new EM is the more balanced option.

> > >

> > > As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does.

> >

> > If deception skills weren't so horribly meh you might be on to something.

>

> I think they would be pretty strong with 20% cdr and a condition removal.

>

> 1. False Oasis and Jaunt are both already very strong. With the new EM, the heal will be a 20s cd 8k base heal without healing power. Jaunt will go on a 24 second cooldown per charge.

> 2. Illusionary Ambush sees use in a few builds as well. With the new EM, it will become a 16s cd target break + condition removal.

> 3. Sand Through Glass becomes a 20s cd stun break, double evade (counting the Mirage Mirror it leaves behind), and a condition removal.

> 4. Mirage Advance would become a 20s cd 900 range teleport that blinds and can return you back to your original position + a condition removal.

> 5. Crystal Sands is pretty bad but it will become a 16s cd 6 confusion burst that leaves a Mirage Mirror behind and cleanses a condition.

 

False Oasis and Jaunt, I agree, they're good skills. IAmbush is kinda niche, it still suffers from facing issues when using a ranged weapon and has some poor interactions with vertical gaps. Far more people use Axe 3 as opposed to that purely because it's more reliable and has half the cooldown. Sand Through Glass has an incredibly uncomfortable aftercast and a very weird delay on use, were it not buggy it might see more use, but still Blink outshines it vastly as a stun break. Mirage Advance has an obnoxious cast time and the blind is pointless when they're spammable on Blinding Dissipation and occur on every interrupt too, which also needs to be addressed. I think I've seen maybe a solid two or three people use it, I know anecdotal evidence isn't the best to go on, but still it seems very rare. Crystal Sands will still be bad it's only 6 confusion if your target stands there like a lemon in the exact center. So I truly doubt anyone would take that either.

 

I like the idea tbh, but the problem is I don't trust ANet to implement it without making Deception skills feel good to use.

[Odik.4587]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does.

>

> If deception skills weren't so horribly meh you might be on to something.

How this could be something if that would be worse version of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wilderness_Knowledge ?

And Mirage grandmaster revolves around improving dodge , just like drd or they should lose one of their dodges for some nonse like that ?:D

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does.

> >

> > If deception skills weren't so horribly meh you might be on to something.

> How this could be something if that would be worse version of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wilderness_Knowledge ?

> And Mirage grandmaster revolves around improving dodge , just like drd or they should lose one of their dodges for some nonse like that ?:D

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shared_Anguish

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Stand

 

There are more inferior ranger traits.

 

Either way, the new EM would still be very strong. Keep in mind, mesmers and ranger do not fill the same role. Mesmers have more mobility/utility/damage than a ranger in a Conquest match. They should not have the same amount of defenses.

[viquing.8254]

>Mirage should not be able to dodge while cc'd, just like EVERY other class.

Yeah, it can be true if EVERY other class (at last the most played last season.) didn't have easy access to breakstunts and/or stability uptime with traits/skills and/or other mecanic to evade burst.

 

BTW I don't care, depending if there is a update next tuesday or not, I'm going to "harder spec" (because they are just more effectives in the game mode.) or just take a break.

And be happy, you will probably still see somes burst mes thanks to duoQ's come back.

(without duoQ or update, I would have easily bet on more than 30% of guards (all specs combined) next season.)

[Odik.4587]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does.

> > >

> > > If deception skills weren't so horribly meh you might be on to something.

> > How this could be something if that would be worse version of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wilderness_Knowledge ?

> > And Mirage grandmaster revolves around improving dodge , just like drd or they should lose one of their dodges for some nonse like that ?:D

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shared_Anguish

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Stand

>

> There are more inferior ranger traits.

>

> Either way, the new EM would still be very strong. Keep in mind, mesmers and ranger do not fill the same role. Mesmers have more mobility/utility/damage than a ranger in a Conquest match. They should not have the same amount of defenses.

 

 

Why you even mention them ... ? Every class have bad traits

You trying to put inferior version of Wilderness knowledge trait into mirage grandmaster tier that meant to improve dodge.... Same as daredevil get 3 new dodges , you understand that? If that would reduce recharge 20% of deception skills + remove 1 condition on dodge , that would be really good and no one miss dodge breakstun.

I mean ... Anet devs really read those threads ? Do they really take notes? When EM appeared first time, did they listen community about to not release as it was ?

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does.

> > > >

> > > > If deception skills weren't so horribly meh you might be on to something.

> > > How this could be something if that would be worse version of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wilderness_Knowledge ?

> > > And Mirage grandmaster revolves around improving dodge , just like drd or they should lose one of their dodges for some nonse like that ?:D

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shared_Anguish

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Stand

> >

> > There are more inferior ranger traits.

> >

> > Either way, the new EM would still be very strong. Keep in mind, mesmers and ranger do not fill the same role. Mesmers have more mobility/utility/damage than a ranger in a Conquest match. They should not have the same amount of defenses.

>

>

> Why you even mention them ... ? Every class have bad traits

> You trying to put inferior version of Wilderness knowledge trait into mirage grandmaster tier that meant to improve dodge.... Same as daredevil get 3 new dodges , you understand that? If that would reduce recharge 20% of deception skills + remove 1 condition on dodge , that would be really good and no one miss dodge breakstun.

> I mean ... Anet devs really read those threads ? Do they really take notes? When EM appeared first time, did they listen community about to not release as it was ?

>

 

You mentioned that the new EM I suggested is a worse version of Wilderness Knowledge. I'm just showing you an example of a ranger trait that is a worse version of a warrior one.

 

I don't understand what you wrote after that, sorry. If you say the new EM trait would be really good and no one would miss the stunbreak on EM, why did you draw that comparison in the first place?

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > As for all of the mesmer mains who believe that being able to dodge while cc'd is fine because "If it's removed the spec will be horrible." It won't be. You'll just have to pay attention more to try and avoid those ccs just like EVERYONE else does.

> > > > >

> > > > > If deception skills weren't so horribly meh you might be on to something.

> > > > How this could be something if that would be worse version of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wilderness_Knowledge ?

> > > > And Mirage grandmaster revolves around improving dodge , just like drd or they should lose one of their dodges for some nonse like that ?:D

> > >

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shared_Anguish

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Stand

> > >

> > > There are more inferior ranger traits.

> > >

> > > Either way, the new EM would still be very strong. Keep in mind, mesmers and ranger do not fill the same role. Mesmers have more mobility/utility/damage than a ranger in a Conquest match. They should not have the same amount of defenses.

> >

> >

> > Why you even mention them ... ? Every class have bad traits

> > You trying to put inferior version of Wilderness knowledge trait into mirage grandmaster tier that meant to improve dodge.... Same as daredevil get 3 new dodges , you understand that? If that would reduce recharge 20% of deception skills + remove 1 condition on dodge , that would be really good and no one miss dodge breakstun.

> > I mean ... Anet devs really read those threads ? Do they really take notes? When EM appeared first time, did they listen community about to not release as it was ?

> >

>

> You mentioned that the new EM I suggested is a worse version of Wilderness Knowledge. I'm just showing you an example of a ranger trait that is a worse version of a warrior one.

>

> I don't understand what you wrote after that, sorry. If you say the new EM trait would be really good and no one would miss the stunbreak on EM, why did you draw that comparison in the first place?

 

It's sarcasm I think

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > And my point is that if all Mirage brings is a slightly longer dodge and being able to channel skills during it, it's not enough because most of the innate skills from Mesmer are unimpactful.

> >

> > *squint*

> >

> > Why are you avoiding talking about Mirage Cloaks ability to provide evade while CCed without taking Elusive Mind? That's the meat of the issue here if I'm reading this properly.

> > What you stated is not all Mirage brings. The way it stands now, as long as a Mirage has half endurance it can avoid any subsequent follow up to stun by dodging, whether or not Elusive Mind is traited. The facts that the dodge is slightly longer and channeling is uninterrupted are annoying, but less relevant.

>

> That is exactly what I mentioned. Read into it just a little.

 

I misread what you were getting at, initially. Apologies for that.

I'm inclined to disagree that the dodge-while-stunned is the glue that holds mirage together as a spec, rather than what is specifically allowing it to overperform though, because there are several other avenues mesmer has to avoid damage while stunned or avoid bursts from stun altogether. That kind of defense should not be as freely accessible as it currently is.

[googel.3278]

nerf necros instead?

[Gamble.4580]

I must be alown for poeple who ain't got a mes but thinks they ain't a problem.. I main necro, war grd and don't really get bothered by them.

[Virelion.4128]

> @"googel.3278" said:

> nerf necros instead?

 

They will probably buff dmg on some random RS skill by 10% and remove stability from RS3, because necro obviously have to much sustain ...

[Schwahrheit.4203]

Oh damn.. if Mirage and Spellbreaker does nerfed then another cancer comes out too. So ANET has to be prepared for that but like LOL they put themselves in such a garbage situation they won't even know what to do.

[memausz.7264]

Oh yeah, Mesmers NEED to be nerfed in PvP. Literally 5 people on a team cannot counter the minature invulnerability, the teleporting while down, the illusions WITH ARMOR... it's Too much. There is no effective way to counter all of that nonsense. Mesmer needs to be nerfed. Same for scourge with all of those conditions you cannot get rid of, despite being a full-fledged Guardian.

[Silence.3702]

mirage and deadeye

[mortrialus.3062]

I say we mes the nerfmer instead.

[Weasel.9684]

Really what mirage needs is less sustain mirage damage is fine.one shot is justifiable because if u avoid the burst and put damage into them it sticks pretty well,but is simply not the case with mirage and that’s a problem with how hard they can be to hit to begin with.another possible fix would be simply no attacking during mirage cloak you can move but not attack

[Amaranthe.3578]

All the bronze players come to demand the noobskillers be nerfed.

[Curunen.8729]

On a related note I'm anticipating adventurer runes getting wrecked next week, or at least some kind of redesign on the 6th bonus.

 

Though maybe there will be some new overpowered endurance synergy rune.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> On a related note I'm anticipating adventurer runes getting wrecked next week, or at least some kind of redesign on the 6th bonus.

>

> Though maybe there will be some new overpowered endurance synergy rune.

 

An uninspired Endurance gain down to 25 is likely, same with Energy Sigils.

[Xaylin.1860]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> On a related note I'm anticipating adventurer runes getting wrecked next week, or at least some kind of redesign on the 6th bonus.

>

> Though maybe there will be some new overpowered endurance synergy rune.

 

I loved my lazoors in the Labyrinth... :'(