My thought how to fix stronghold

[Nova.3817]

ive been playing stronghold lately (for AP ) and i have a few thoughts on how to fix it...

 

1. the supply to spawn npcs feels unrewarding i think running supply should increase the number of spawned NPCs at a given time ( so in other words no matter what door breakers and archers will spawn reguardless if someone is running supply) but one that is will have more... this will give you that army feel that you get when playing mobas (which stronghold is basically taking a note from )

 

2. there should be a mech to increase movement at any time (mounting up) but it would take LOTS of time to mount up and a single hit would knock you off (such as mobas handle it ) or they could just add a base teleport something like a 5 sec channel (cant be used from stealth or while in combat )

 

basically just add things that are in every moba bc thats clearly where you got your inspiration from but instead of adding your on flavor to it you gutted it and left it barebones which is why i think stronghold suffers.... just my .02 on how to improve it id also like to see both lanes become ways to attack and deefend from basiclly just make it a moba game with 2 lanes inside of gw2 ...

 

my .02

 

 

[Vieux P.1238]

Delete it.

See, Fix.

[Nova.3817]

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Delete it.

> See, Fix.

 

yes or that

 

[Yannir.4132]

A. Add ways to defend your base. Repairing gates, or spawning more guards, etc.

B. Get rid of unnecessary mechanics like Archers and Trebuchets.

C. Allow players to damage gates with minimal damage, like in WvW.

 

Bottomline is that Stronghold snowballs far too easily, making only 1 tactic viable.

[terrorshard.3854]

I believe they were trying to create the GVG experience from GW1 which was a masterpiece.

[breno.5423]

My suggestions:

 

1) Change the hero capture mechanic to capture point same as conquest, instead of intertaction mechanic (like skyhammer cannon);

2) Do the same or something similar for supply aquisition;

3) Npcs would do a heavy damage at Skritts instead of one shotting them (25% of Skritts hp per hit for example);

4) Nerf hero HP and armor, so healer job would be even more important.

 

These changes would give a higher importance to the holy trinity.

Guess its all.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I believe that trying to make it too different to 'moba' games was what made it fail.

 

It looks like they didn't want to make it feel too much like a moba, make it distinct, but mobas are game that have been polished for years. So it's like trying to make a square wheel when reinventing it. [it's not like you can't reinvent the wheel](https://www.nasa.gov/specials/wheels/ "It's not like you can't reinvent the wheel"), but you have to identify what's the integral part of it: Wheels have to be able to go round and round, and they have to stand weight.

 

So to make it feel better, they would have to bring back the key elements that make these style of games work:

 

* Rather than having two distinct lanes one for attack, one for defense, both lanes should be attack and defense.

* Remove the supply mechanic, replace it with constant waves of NPCs spawned every 30s, and increase the spawns after enemy defenses on the lane are gone. Something like:

* First 3 melee hylek warriors, 1 grawl shaman that attacks with stoning with 600 range, 3 archer tengu with 900 range.

* Then once the enemy defenses in are gone in a lane, add to that lane something else that attacks harder but slower with 1200 range, like an ettin or ogre throwing boulders, or a charr tank.

* Replace the teleport gates with phased doors. For enemies they will look opaque, for allies they will look like ghostly translucent doors. Ally NPCs ignore them and walk through them, enemies have to break them to pass. Once broken they look the same for both sides.

* Make each door have 2 strong defenses. They could be NPCs, but they have to focus on enemy NPCs when they are in range.

* Players should never be able to easily tank the defenses. They should need the cover of their lane's NPCs. Defenses should always target those first. Defenses would partially or completely ignore defensive effects like blocking, projectile absorption, reflects and protection and hit players hard, but they would not ignore invulnerability effects.

* Behind the two first doors in each lane there should be a strong stationary enemy that hits hard 1 player at a time and gives a debuff, like a large turret, pirate turret or a treant that is constantly giving chilled, slow and weakness with its attacks and can take down a tanky warrior in about 5 hits, 7-8 with endure pain.

* Have some sort of cumulative team-wide buff when killing enemies and players. Something like +0.5% damage, condition damage and max health for each enemy player defeated, +0.1% for each NPC defeated and +2.5% for each strong stationary defense destroyed.

* Remove the trebuchets, replace them with camps where you can defeat a group of 3 skritt, then once they are defeated, you capture a capture point to 'enlist' them. The conquered skritt will join the nearest lane and walk on it until they reach a defense or the lord, and then rush to them and detonate their bomb, dealing considerable damage to defenses, and good damage to the lord. These camps would take 2 min to recharge after being captured.

* Replace the central supply with a strong boss than can create AoE stuns, like a 'short' giant that appears at 5:00 and can be defeated to make it join a lane. This giant could attack mostly with simple melee attacks, but it will do its stomp attack every 10 seconds and throw an immobilize snare every 20. This 'boss' would respawn every 5 mins or so.

* The lord would have a defense buff based on remaining defenses. When all defenses are intact, the lord takes 100% less damage (i.e.: invulnerable), when all defenses in both lanes and at the boss room are destroyed, the boss takes full damage. The strong stationary enemies behind each door would be 15% of that defense each.

* The mists champion mechanic would remain the same.

 

That or make it a fully distinct game mode, not something halfway between a moba and something else.

[breno.5423]

I think stronghold systematic has been well done, seriously. It just need a few changes.

Trebuchet is a nice mechanic and useful, so as skritts, **only archers feel a little useless**.

Supply mechanic is a bit boring, **but it forces PvP, which is positive**. Maybe a little change at "how to get" supply, something different than interaction.

Allied with my other suggestions, i guess this would fix this game mode ;)

[Abazigal.3679]

I personnaly think this was a good intention, but the idea of bringing " moba " stuff wasn't really good. I'd rather have had something similar to lord room in Legacy of foefire, but put to a bigger extend.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"MithranArkanere.8957" is correct. If they want a MOBA they should have not tried to reinvent the wheel..

Lanes shouldn't be unidirectional. NPCs should fight each other and spawn at a constant rate.

Current mid and trebs should be replaced with buff mechanics or similar.

Defensive NPCs shouldn't be trivial for players to defeat.

PvP should be in lane and secondary objectives, not really just in the middle arena.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" is correct. If they want a MOBA they should have not tried to reinvent the wheel..

> Lanes shouldn't be unidirectional. NPCs should fight each other and spawn at a constant rate.

> Current mid and trebs should be replaced with buff mechanics or similar.

> Defensive NPCs shouldn't be trivial for players to defeat.

> PvP should be in lane and secondary objectives, not really just in the middle arena.

 

Pvp needs to be playable by bad pve players, u guys tend to forget gw2 isnt made to be difficult nor that skilled gameplay.

 

Still imo the only way to make it somewath decentlyi is to remove the npcs and make players carry and atack each other.

On gvg/HoH we had the flag carriers in this game we would have the powder carriers lol...to open the gates and kill enemy lord.

 

#Players should do what the npc's are doing.

[breno.5423]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> PvP should be in lane and secondary objectives, not really just in the middle arena.

 

But pvp is mainly at the secondary objectives õ.õ'

PvP is around supplys, trebuchet, heros and skrits (until the lord gate is down). When lord gate is down, pvp concentrates at the lord room.

I like the pvp dynamic at the current stronghold.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"MithranArkanere.8957" is correct. If they want a MOBA they should have not tried to reinvent the wheel..

> > Lanes shouldn't be unidirectional. NPCs should fight each other and spawn at a constant rate.

> > Current mid and trebs should be replaced with buff mechanics or similar.

> > Defensive NPCs shouldn't be trivial for players to defeat.

> > PvP should be in lane and secondary objectives, not really just in the middle arena.

>

> Pvp needs to be playable by bad pve players, u guys tend to forget gw2 isnt made to be difficult nor that skilled gameplay.

>

> Still imo the only way to make it somewath decentlyi is to remove the npcs and make players carry and atack each other.

> On gvg/HoH we had the flag carriers in this game we would have the powder carriers lol...to open the gates and kill enemy lord.

 

That wouldn't work with teams of 5. The NPCs have to be there, otherwise it'll be a running simulator for at least a player, which will make it worse than it is now. "Creeps" are there to substitute the player on the more onerous tasks like dealing with enemy static defenses. This should allow the players to focus more on the pvp.

Problem with Stronghold, is that because of the supply mechanic, it still turns into a running simulator for some players. To the point that it wasn't uncommon for people to just run supplies and ignore the enemy grabbing his share.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" is correct. If they want a MOBA they should have not tried to reinvent the wheel..

> > > Lanes shouldn't be unidirectional. NPCs should fight each other and spawn at a constant rate.

> > > Current mid and trebs should be replaced with buff mechanics or similar.

> > > Defensive NPCs shouldn't be trivial for players to defeat.

> > > PvP should be in lane and secondary objectives, not really just in the middle arena.

> >

> > Pvp needs to be playable by bad pve players, u guys tend to forget gw2 isnt made to be difficult nor that skilled gameplay.

> >

> > Still imo the only way to make it somewath decentlyi is to remove the npcs and make players carry and atack each other.

> > On gvg/HoH we had the flag carriers in this game we would have the powder carriers lol...to open the gates and kill enemy lord.

>

> That wouldn't work with teams of 5. The NPCs have to be there, otherwise it'll be a running simulator for at least a player, which will make it worse than it is now. "Creeps" are there to substitute the player on the more onerous tasks like dealing with enemy static defenses. This should allow the players to focus more on the pvp.

> Problem with Stronghold, is that because of the supply mechanic, it still turns into a running simulator for some players. To the point that it wasn't uncommon for people to just run supplies and ignore the enemy grabbing his share.

 

So u guys want change w/o actually change it? That is nonsense!

 

OFC rules changes had to occur,.

Supply carry powder etc all that had to have new rules and removed if needed as well, so teams would have to gain access to morale or access to grab a powder keg could be used, this would be more fight than actually run with supplies.

Teams of 5(MAX )would work normal like they work on spvp.... 2 party of 5 on each side would be to much due how easy is to power creep targets due easy access to damage output gimmicks and simple/easy gameplay that game is ment to be.

 

When players suggest something does not means keep the same rules, ;) game mode needs to be fully tweaked if needed.

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"breno.5423" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > PvP should be in lane and secondary objectives, not really just in the middle arena.

>

> But pvp is mainly at the secondary objectives õ.õ'

> PvP is around supplys, trebuchet, heros and skrits (until the lord gate is down). When lord gate is down, pvp concentrates at the lord room.

> I like the pvp dynamic at the current stronghold.

 

See, that's the problem, you're not even aware what would be an objective in Stronghold.

Heroes are secondary objectives.

They aid the game, and are there to shift focus from main objectives (unless you're doing dailies, which are a second problem with pvp in general, allowing dailies in ranked).

Look at League of legends, you rarely win a game just from having Baron or Dragons. But you can win a game if you provoke the other team to contest those objectives and win.

Same thing with heroes, i've won games where the other team blindly chased heroes while i was bashing their gate lord. They got their hero unopposed and my team won the game.

The primary objectives of stronghold are the gates and the lord. Everything else is secondary objectives. But the way Stronghold is structured and fought by the majority of people, most fights are done at those secondary objectives, not in the lane.

I can't tell you how many times i've gotten to the lord unopposed using only the initial wave of minions you spawn with the starting supplies, and that's on ranked matches.

[perilisk.1874]

One change would be to replace supply running with 3 standard capture points., one close to each team, one in mid. More points = more mobs.

[phokus.8934]

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Delete it.

> See, Fix.

 

They tried to capitalize on the moba scene and implement it in an MMO.

 

It was a bold move, Cotton, and it didn't pay off. Scrap it, dump it, focus on conquest.

[Nightmare.1234]

**things that should be removed**

- archers for lane summons

- gate guards

- trebuchets

**supply should have many uses**

- repair gates

- summon door breakers

- build structures

**things that should be added**

- build spots (points on the map that allow tactical built structures controlled by players/AI) e.g. gate hot oil pots with a pull chain to activate, tengu archer towers, pirate cannon towers, mortar with cooldown ammo mechanic (old treb spot) and lane barricades (these slow down skritt making them need to use their bombs on the barriers)

- player gate damage (high health gates)

**things that should change**

- hero summon channelling spot is now in the center with the supply and appears evenly 3 times over the full match time limit

- supply channelling time is halved

- players can hold 3 stacks of 10 supply (scatter from body on death) displayed as 1-3 crates above head and not carried in hand

- skritt cant be healed but do gain effects of boons (e.g regen, protection, resistance, stab etc)

- skritt have a break bar that stuns them for 3 seconds and increased damage dealt to them for that 3 seconds (bar recharges every 15 seconds)

- skritt have more health and cant be stopped on their path other than the break bar

[Nova.3817]

> @"terrorshard.3854" said:

> I believe they were trying to create the GVG experience from GW1 which was a masterpiece.

 

i think so 2 but all they had to do was litterally copy it 2 the tee with this combat system lol

[Ragnar.4257]

* You need to have 2 lanes to stop it devolving into a 2 FB + 3 Scourge zerg-ball, so that has to stay. One lane would be a mess.

* That said the running up and down, back and forward, is boring; it wouldn't hurt to move the 2 lanes slightly closer together. If you're not playing a build with lots of leaps/blinks, this map is _painful_ to play. Not right on top of each other, but maybe within 900-1200 range (with LOS) so that you can't completely ignore / hide from the other lane.

* The fundamental issue is that too often you can play this map by just tunnel-visioning on your attacking lane and completely ignore the other. Moving the lanes closer together would promote more conflict.

* Possibly also introduce a debuff for having too many players concentrated on one lane? Maybe not directly to players, but increase damage taken by attacking NPCs for having more players? Thus making it easier for 2-3 players to defend/delay against a zerg of 5 players. Or, alternatively, give a buff to the other side's NPCs gate damage, so that you have to go and defend so as to not get out-gate-damaged.

* Having a single central supply-depot where you have to go to is good, it forces pvp conflict, so that should stay. The other side-objectives are fine too and interact with each other well.

* However, the running back and forward to your base to use the supply is extremely tedious; change it so that once you've channeled supply in the middle it auto-spawns a skritt/archer without you having to run back.

 

Its a shame the game-mode doesn't function quite right, 'cos the terrain is actually really good for pvp.

[Ziggityzog.7389]

Keep it how it is and make a new map. Don't just ruin the one good map PvP has to offer. I'm sorry I got bored with circlequest 2 months after launch and stronghold by far beats the circle quest stale gameplay. At least the whole map is used as to where a map this big l….........................................l but only 3 little circles matter l...l. lol ?

[terrorshard.3854]

> @"Nova.3817" said:

> > @"terrorshard.3854" said:

> > I believe they were trying to create the GVG experience from GW1 which was a masterpiece.

>

> i think so 2 but all they had to do was litterally copy it 2 the tee with this combat system lol

 

No, it needed to be modernized. For its time it was amazing. You could adapt to the other team in so many ways. If you couldnt stand toe to toe in the 7v7 at flag you could force a split and beat them that way. One season my guild went undefeated, think we went like 70-0 with straight up balanced build. Felt like we couldn't lose to anything. This was in 2006-7. Times have changed and gamers today don't have the kind of patience that game style took.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

for me, make the map longer and wider and make it 10 man.

[Nova.3817]

> @"terrorshard.3854" said:

> > @"Nova.3817" said:

> > > @"terrorshard.3854" said:

> > > I believe they were trying to create the GVG experience from GW1 which was a masterpiece.

> >

> > i think so 2 but all they had to do was litterally copy it 2 the tee with this combat system lol

>

> No, it needed to be modernized. For its time it was amazing. You could adapt to the other team in so many ways. If you couldnt stand toe to toe in the 7v7 at flag you could force a split and beat them that way. One season my guild went undefeated, think we went like 70-0 with straight up balanced build. Felt like we couldn't lose to anything. This was in 2006-7. Times have changed and gamers today don't have the kind of patience that game style took.

 

it would be modernized based on the fact its in the gw2 engine what im refering is simply the same lay out for the game 2 bases 2 lords npc guards at a certain time they come to center of MAP to fight....

 

all the other side mechanics such as rezing and the flag and the various side mech would need to be changed to fit inside this engine but.... it would obviously flow different in gw2 then gw1

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think there are a few problems that if addressed could go a long way to making the mode a lot more enjoyable:

- 5 player teams aren't enough, increase to 8. there is a ton to do: offense + defense, capturing the supply, and summoning champs. that and the maps are pretty big.

- running supply is boring. instead of going back and forth like some pack mule it should be a capture point that spawns 3 of each npc every 15 seconds. this lasts for a minute then you have to recapture it by killing the npcs that guard it. the npcs shouldn't be fodder, it should take 2 dps specs at least 30 seconds. this would help prevent snowballing hopefully.

- the champ spawns imo, being too far off to the side, in a lot of cases discourage people from contesting them. the best way to contest them if youre losing would be to have a thief go over there, but since the champ spawn is right next to the enemy spawn its pretty much a matter of time. that fact plus the travel time means its pretty much pointless to contest most of the time unless youre winning. so its basically a snowball mechanic which is bad. change this champ spawn area to buffs for the bombers + archers, and move both champ spawns to an area in front of the supply depots entrance on both sides. clear out a bit of an area ofc so its not too close. if youre winning, champs spawn farther away from you.

- change the catapult to a buff for your defense npcs.