Downed state - Nerf it ?

[Player.9621]

1 death = 1 rally

[Zero.3871]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> We had a 2v5 today in WvW. The FB rezbot got all 4 of them up again two times. 8 rezzes. When you fight 2v5 (and these 5 have even a healer) you can't save skills for a FB rezz-prevention. It was so ridiculous I couldn't even rage against it.

>

> The no-downstate event was the best thing this game has seen so far!

 

i agree, FB support capability is beyond broken. Many people in this game are complaining About Scourge and everytime they say FB+Scourge = Brokenb comp. but since PoF release mostly scourge get nerfed heavily while FB only got minor nerfes like 10% heal reduction, WHILE all other classes got massive offensive nerfes. FB is in dire Need of nerfes.

 

 

 

also often mentioned in other threads, Downstate is a really bad mechnaic for wvw in its current state. Cause it is favoring the already greater fraction. in pvp where you fight 5v5 its a good mechanic, because it makes the fight between even numbers Groups more complexe. for exmple if 1 side is only oneshoot and the other has some classes for reviving teammates the rezzing Team will win. also in pve it is healthy that People can help each other when Fighting some world bosses and go down.

 

but in wvw where nearly every fight is between uneven numbers, the greater Group only get favor from downstate. and it is not a Question of skill wether you Play on a small Server or not. but if you do you will Always have enemy Groups that are greater than yours. and is it fair that you got punished by a broken downstate mechanic because you dont bandwagon to the greatest serverlinkings to blob down everything with twice the numbers? downstate finally due to even more bandwagoning. that is not healthy.

[LetoII.3782]

RIP no downed state week, the Greatest Week

You are missed -_-

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I don't see a problem with downstate. I don't think it's unfair in the least: if you're fighting 2v5, then it's on you to finish or deny the rally in some other way. Is it harder for the 2 then if it was insta-defeated? Sure, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing; it just means some of us don't like it.

 

Then again, I also like @"Justine.6351"'s suggestion of having it scale with rank. It could even be tied to the game's death penalty mechanic (e.g. >100 rank immediately starts with one stack of DP). That also seems fair.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"bigo.9037" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > Cant win a 2v5 which is *entirerly possible with good teamwork and stomp skills*?

> >

> > Bring 3 people.

> >

> > Cant win 3v5 which is *even more possible*?

> >

> > Bring 4 people.

> >

> > Oh they brought another 2 instead so its a 4v7 now and you *still* cant win?

> >

> > Bring 5 people.

> >

> > That's not something unbalanced or broken - that's how WvW works. That's how we get massive battles. If people just won at a whim because "we're better than casuals", what's the point of fighting?

>

> to win? this logic is really bad, you know.

>

> by saying this you effectively mean that the point of fighting is just to bring more and more people. ??

>

> fighting should be fair. I immediately assume everyone who defends downedstate are casual noobs who never leave spawn without at least 5 other people to insta ress them when they "die"

>

> strength in numbers should be enough by itself.

>

> here's an analogy for you:

>

> those that make 250000$ per year pay 5% income tax, but those that make 20000$ a year pay 95% income tax. does that sound fair to you? should those who already have so much get to have it easier even though they already make so much?? no.

>

> so why should the smaller group have less of a chance for OTHER that the fact that they have less players?? uneven matchups happen all the time in roaming, guild v guild and zerg fighting.

 

The logic about bringing in income tax is *so much better*. It fits *perfectly* with the discussion of downed state in WvW. Its so **logical** when you think about it. Shall we start to discuss analogies with cars, birds and possibly Trump too? I mean its only **logical**.

 

No, the point is that loosing a fight means you need more people to win. If the enemy then loose, they need to bring more people to win. And if you loose after that, then *by logic*... you need to bring more people to won again. Strength in numbers drives WvW battles - thats why we get 70 man zergs clashing with each other. But its not the *only* thing that matters. 2v5 is such an example where skill - like in *actual skill use* - matters alot. A single knockback, a single stealth, a single stability or invouln pop, all these could secure a stomp. I've been in situations like the video above and guess what - I've won, ha. And of course I've lost. Sometimes because I was stupid, sometimes because I just needed that good wingman. Which is how WvW works. This isnt solo PvP. Skilled players already have a massive advantage in combat.

 

 

[samo.1054]

Downstate should be done with or get nerfed hard. Anyone who ever roamed seriously will know that. It favors the side that outnumbers the enemy ergo the game does not reward someone that fights outnumbered and still manages to kill. That should never be the case. Fighting 1v2, 1v3, constantly downing them, but can't win the fight, because they keep resing each other. So. Much. Fun. If they are bad, they should die or if I'm good, I should be able to win.

 

Besides that, downstates are terribly imbalanced between each other.

 

Just seriously remove/redesign this disgrace. It has been ruining the game for too long.

[Solaris.2489]

No downstate event was awesome and should be permanent, also force defeated players to respawn after 5 minutes. Kitten perma stealth deadeyes rezzing each other in a keep indefinetly and it takes like 10 players guarding corpses and even then they are rezzed.

[TheBravery.9615]

down state is a mechanic that favors teams with more numbers. servers with high populations don't need this handicap.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

 

It doesn't though. What I saw more of no downstate week was warriors...they were everywhere. The gank groups are always out, usually in groups of 5 or more. With the way it is now, I can engage one and down them, they stealth res each other, and then kill you. At least with no downstate, I would slowly be killing them off. The problem is that they aren't relying on skill, they are solely relying on numbers. Skill should be what wins fights.

[TheBravery.9615]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

>

> It doesn't though. What I saw more of no downstate week was warriors...they were everywhere. The gank groups are always out, usually in groups of 5 or more. With the way it is now, I can engage one and down them, they stealth res each other, and then kill you. At least with no downstate, I would slowly be killing them off. The problem is that** they aren't relying on skill, they are solely relying on numbers. Skill should be what wins fights.**

 

+1

[Justine.6351]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

>

> It doesn't though. What I saw more of no downstate week was warriors...they were everywhere. The gank groups are always out, usually in groups of 5 or more. With the way it is now, I can engage one and down them, they stealth res each other, and then kill you. At least with no downstate, I would slowly be killing them off. The problem is that they aren't relying on skill, they are solely relying on numbers. Skill should be what wins fights.

 

yep.

 

I get bouncy trolled running alone by a group of 3 players. Well I don't like being bouncy trolled by anyone and so I take that 1v3 and when I drop one of them its always the garbage thief who can safely rally from his buddies while I get no value out of downed state in return. Then I get emoted afterwards by said thief. The thief isn't really mocking me, he is mocking anet and their downed state mechanic because its a joke.

[zinkz.7045]

Nearly everything favours the side that outnumber, if you are 2 vs 5 for instance then guess what, boon sharing, healing, shared damage shields, blasting combo fields, etc all favour the 5 man group, so better remove everything from the game...

 

Back on the planet earth the reality is balance is based on equal numbers and downstate is no different than anything else in that regard, better (or at least more organised) players will handle rezzes/stomps better.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

As a roamer, it can be a pain, however I look at downing an enemy as a victory (as long as they down first) and a kill/stomp is just the icing on the cake. Same if they run away (another victory), mind you I am one up for a chase if it means I can get my icing lol.

 

Does it need nerf...i personally don't think so. Was no downstate fun, you bet your tushie it was.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

>

> It doesn't though. What I saw more of no downstate week was warriors...they were everywhere. The gank groups are always out, usually in groups of 5 or more. With the way it is now, I can engage one and down them, they stealth res each other, and then kill you. At least with no downstate, I would slowly be killing them off. The problem is that they aren't relying on skill, they are solely relying on numbers. Skill should be what wins fights.

 

But it does though. Just because what you saw was more warriors doesn't mean that that is the norm everywhere at all times. During no downstate week there were more people complaining about more gankers than there were anything else. There were entire threads about it on the forums as well. We've been through this, can't tell you how many threads through this we have been. No downstate encourages people to come up with insta-kill builds. Don't tell me it doesn't. If you do, you are probably one of the insta-kill build players that wants to defend no downstate because you find it more fun to be able to insta-kill more players and get more loot bags. I would be more in favor of a no downstate IF Anet were able to get rid of these one shot kill builds from stealth that everybody seems to love to play. I get it. You want more skilled players. Fine. Get rid of Stealth and one shot builds. That forces people to have to be better skilled at fighting. Now watch all the people come running to defend Thief and Mesmer trying to say that it does take skill to play one of those professions. Sure, it takes skill to play it. Just not to fight with it. There is no skill when you kill somebody who can't fight back. Deny it all you want, but no downstate brings out more Thieves and Mesmers because they get more easy kills than they do with downstate instated.

[Israel.7056]

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

> Nearly everything favours the side that outnumber, if you are 2 vs 5 for instance then guess what, boon sharing, healing, shared damage shields, blasting combo fields, etc all favour the 5 man group, so better remove everything from the game...

>

> Back on the planet earth the reality is balance is based on equal numbers and downstate is no different than anything else in that regard, better (or at least more organised) players will handle rezzes/stomps better.

 

Downed state in particular always disproportionately favors the larger group because the larger your group the easier it is to just run in blow cds and rally off downs or chain res once the outnumbered side runs out of cds.

 

With no downed state the margin for error for any sized group is much lower and so any sized group can be instantly whittled down which makes a huge difference in outnumbered fights.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > Nearly everything favours the side that outnumber, if you are 2 vs 5 for instance then guess what, boon sharing, healing, shared damage shields, blasting combo fields, etc all favour the 5 man group, so better remove everything from the game...

> >

> > Back on the planet earth the reality is balance is based on equal numbers and downstate is no different than anything else in that regard, better (or at least more organised) players will handle rezzes/stomps better.

>

> Downed state in particular always disproportionately favors the larger group because the larger your group the easier it is to just run in blow cds and rally off downs or chain res once the outnumbered side runs out of cds.

>

> With no downed state the margin for error for any sized group is much lower and so any sized group can be instantly whittled down which makes a huge difference in outnumbered fights.

 

And no downed state also favors the larger numbers. Yes if you are lucky enough with a smaller group you can whittle that large group down and win. More likely than not though that larger group will just have a more easier time of rolling over your smaller group because now half of your small group is trying to run back from spawn point because they can't be rezzed or rally during the fight. Smaller groups get smaller faster than larger groups do unless you happen to catch that larger group either off guard or after they have blown through all of their dodges and CD's.

 

We have been over this so many times. I highly doubt though that Anet will remove downed state. It's a core mechanic of their WvW game, and like so many other people have said when it comes to core mechanics, Stealth, it won't be removed. Just enjoy the times when Anet disables it for a week and leave it at that.

[Schnuschnu.9857]

I like the fact that it can be an awesome deathtrap turning a 4vs2 in a 0vs2 in seconds. The only problem I have a are all the boosts you can get to rezzing, making it way too fast. Look at the original balance of it: Instant rezz spells but at a 3s cast time. Now: From downed to living in under 3s, multiple times.

[Israel.7056]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> And no downed state also favors the larger numbers. Yes if you are lucky enough with a smaller group you can whittle that large group down and win. More likely than not though that larger group will just have a more easier time of rolling over your smaller group because now half of your small group is trying to run back from spawn point because they can't be rezzed or rally during the fight. Smaller groups get smaller faster than larger groups do unless you happen to catch that larger group either off guard or after they have blown through all of their dodges and CD's.

 

No it favors the group who can more consistently and effectively land their first round of damage. With downed state you have to land at least two big rounds of damage: one to down people a second to double them. The reason this favors larger groups disproportionately is because the larger your group the more cds you have to spare which means the more rounds of damage you can output in a given time frame. So basically the way the game works with downed state is smaller groups gas before larger groups.

 

Without downed state it only takes one big round of damage to win a fight which means a smaller group doesn't have to worry about gassing out as much.

 

It makes every fight feel that much faster because instead of having two main stages to a fight there's really only one and this distinctly favors smaller well coordinated high damage groups over mindless blobs.

 

It made zergbusting so much easier. 20v60 isn't so bad if you can instantly eliminate 30 people right at the start.

 

> We have been over this so many times. I highly doubt though that Anet will remove downed state. It's a core mechanic of their WvW game, and like so many other people have said when it comes to core mechanics, Stealth, it won't be removed. Just enjoy the times when Anet disables it for a week and leave it at that.

 

 

I also doubt that they'll remove it but that doesn't change the fact that they should.

 

I enjoyed no downed state week but I think it should be a permanent change to the game mode or at least a more frequent event.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > > Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

> >

> > It doesn't though. What I saw more of no downstate week was warriors...they were everywhere. The gank groups are always out, usually in groups of 5 or more. With the way it is now, I can engage one and down them, they stealth res each other, and then kill you. At least with no downstate, I would slowly be killing them off. The problem is that they aren't relying on skill, they are solely relying on numbers. Skill should be what wins fights.

>

> But it does though. Just because what you saw was more warriors doesn't mean that that is the norm everywhere at all times. During no downstate week there were more people complaining about more gankers than there were anything else. There were entire threads about it on the forums as well. We've been through this, can't tell you how many threads through this we have been. No downstate encourages people to come up with insta-kill builds. Don't tell me it doesn't. If you do, you are probably one of the insta-kill build players that wants to defend no downstate because you find it more fun to be able to insta-kill more players and get more loot bags. I would be more in favor of a no downstate IF Anet were able to get rid of these one shot kill builds from stealth that everybody seems to love to play. I get it. You want more skilled players. Fine. Get rid of Stealth and one shot builds. That forces people to have to be better skilled at fighting. Now watch all the people come running to defend Thief and Mesmer trying to say that it does take skill to play one of those professions. Sure, it takes skill to play it. Just not to fight with it. There is no skill when you kill somebody who can't fight back. Deny it all you want, but no downstate brings out more Thieves and Mesmers because they get more easy kills than they do with downstate instated.

 

I will agree that it did have some people look for 1 shot builds. What I don't fully agree with is your claim on thief/mesmer. You are blanketing every thief/mesmer while stating it takes little skill to do anything regardless of build. What should be noted specifically (which you failed to in order to make a jab at any mesmer/thief player" is decent condi builds (which when I last checked, there were more of those builds, than thief/mesmer players). Its easy to blame a a whole class or 2 based on a cheese build or 2. Some builds do have a low risk, higher reward, however with just about any class, there are builds that require skill to play and to win in fights.

 

Your comment reminds me of what I used to see in PvP over the years. Its that toxic attitude that hurts legit players who choose one of these classes, yet doesnt play the heavy condi build, or the 1 shot builds you speak of (although there are other classes that can achieve it and yes, I do play one of these classes, however I dont run anything near meta, nor even look at meta when I make my builds.)

[Turk.5460]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"Shining One.1635" said:

> > I'm in the make it scale off the number of allies and enemies in the area camp. For every enemy in the area (let's say 2000 unit radius from the downed player), you get +10% downed state hp (with a maximum cap of 95%). For every ally in the area (same 2000 unit radius) you get -10% downed state hp (with a cap at 5%). Even fights are not affected.

>

> Overall res speed just needs to be reduced and the amount of times someone can go down in one minute.Maybe also add something as doing more damage to downed players,since theyre downed and can't really defend themselves anyway,for easier cleaving.This all doesn't apply to blobbing offcourse,it's strictly the issue in roam/small scale fights which i think anet is overlooking.

 

It shouldn't be just time-based, it should be mostly combat-based. As in those downstate penalty stacks don't start to tick their timers down until you leave combat. In combat for 10 minutes and go down a fourth time? Too bad, hope you had fun, you're defeated now.

[zinkz.7045]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> Downed state in particular always disproportionately favors the larger group because the larger your group the easier it is to just run in blow cds and rally off downs or chain res once the outnumbered side runs out of cds.

 

It doesn't "disproportionately" favour a larger group any more than other things, a larger group can more afford to blow CDs on everything from boon sharing to cleansing, from carelessly tossing damage to boon corrupts, that advantage is not unique to blowing CDs to rez someone from downstate. As for rallying off downs, back when multiple players rallied off a single down it was a disproportionate advantage, but not since they changed it.

 

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

> It doesn't "disproportionately" favour a larger group any more than other things, a larger group can more afford to blow CDs on everything from boon sharing to cleansing, from carelessly tossing damage to boon corrupts, that advantage is not unique to blowing CDs to rez someone from downstate. As for rallying off downs, back when multiple players rallied off a single down it was a disproportionate advantage, but not since they changed it.

 

It's true that the larger group has more of everything but none of that matters as much if they can be instantly eliminated. No downed state makes it possible to instantly take out large swaths of people with no second chances through resses or rallies. This makes taking on larger groups with a smaller group much much easier to do because if you can land your damage you can win and you don't have to worry about gassing out as much. With downed state you have to kill people twice and this disproportionately favors larger groups because they have more of everything which means they gas slower.

 

This happened constantly for us during no downed state week. We would hit a map queue zerg, instantly take out 20-30 people and the rest would panic and run. I saw a lot of the better guild groups having the same experience; 20-30 people taking on map queues with much higher success rates.

[Victory.2879]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> Are you EVER going to take a serious look at downed state and how much it carries ? I can't count the times i'm fighting 2vs 5+ where downed state is carrying so hard because ressing is faster than finishing for some reason,and cleaving isn't enough either alot of the times.And the ridiculous 4x downed in one minute,get rid of it.All that downed state does is making people rely on others to back them up in a fight where they went down 3x and still because of that stupid mechanic able to win a fight they should have lost.Downed state is for casuals and it only shines when you outman the other side.Do something about this ridiculous carrying mechanic already.By reducing the res speed and making it so people can go down once but the 2nd time theyre dead.

 

Until they fix terrible mechanics and damage of 10k+ from one skill and macro use to name but a couple, then down state is required. Otherwise it will just become even more of a spike fest than it is now with even more cheesy mechanic users.

 

Without downed state they would need to seriously alter a lot of skills to prevent abuse and use of stealth. I'd be all in favour of removing downed state if no skill could hit for more than 15% total HP and no chaining instantly 5-8 skills was permitted by the coding (very simple, insert cool downs between skill usage), then adjust healing and boons to take this into account, so that fights require more skill and less cheese.

[Hackuuna.4085]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > Nearly everything favours the side that outnumber, if you are 2 vs 5 for instance then guess what, boon sharing, healing, shared damage shields, blasting combo fields, etc all favour the 5 man group, so better remove everything from the game...

> > >

> > > Back on the planet earth the reality is balance is based on equal numbers and downstate is no different than anything else in that regard, better (or at least more organised) players will handle rezzes/stomps better.

> >

> > Downed state in particular always disproportionately favors the larger group because the larger your group the easier it is to just run in blow cds and rally off downs or chain res once the outnumbered side runs out of cds.

> >

> > With no downed state the margin for error for any sized group is much lower and so any sized group can be instantly whittled down which makes a huge difference in outnumbered fights.

>

> And no downed state also favors the larger numbers. Yes if you are lucky enough with a smaller group you can whittle that large group down and win. More likely than not though that larger group will just have a more easier time of rolling over your smaller group because now half of your small group is trying to run back from spawn point because they can't be rezzed or rally during the fight. Smaller groups get smaller faster than larger groups do unless you happen to catch that larger group either off guard or after they have blown through all of their dodges and CD's.

>

> We have been over this so many times. I highly doubt though that Anet will remove downed state. It's a core mechanic of their WvW game, and like so many other people have said when it comes to core mechanics, Stealth, it won't be removed. Just enjoy the times when Anet disables it for a week and leave it at that.

 

The difference being with no downstate a larger group can get cornered easier and fall apart easier to hit-and-run tactics of a smaller group. A smaller group can win a fight through attrition (running back from waypoint) as long as they're being more efficient in KDR and can keep the larger group in combat. Getting a few bags in 10v50 is far more rewarding than zero bags. Downstate promotes avoiding fights.