Downed state - Nerf it ?

[whoknocks.4935]

I would keep downed state only in PvE and PvP where the downed can still have an effect being on point preventing a capture and forcing enemy to stomp or cleave you.

 

But in WvW it's a mechanics who carry bad players a lot, you have no idea how many time I would have won 1vs2, and sometimes even some lucky 1vs3 while roaming and instead they get ressed and kill me instead because as you said sometimes it's just impossible to stomp due to the pressure you receive and cleaving is useless because your damage gets outhealed even if the resser has zero ress traits, it's stupid.

[RedShark.9548]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> Made this a year ago after experiencing the "magic" of downed state...

>

>

> I am in the "7 seconds of downed state and then dead if not rallied" camp.

>

> Its an obnoxious mechanic that was put in place to protect the fragile existence of subpar players. I understand and appreciate that. But its time to take the training wheels off.

>

> My suggestion is to make downed state scale down based on wvw rank so new players are not being horribly abused.

>

> wvw rank:

> 0-100: 75% downed state hp, 4 times= dead, 20 sec duration cap

> 101-200: 50% downed state hp, 3 times= dead, 15 sec durartion cap

> 201-300: 25% downed state hp, 2 times= dead, 10 sec duration cap

 

high ranked progressive players in a guild will just make new accounts to habe the benefit of more downstate

 

also ranking up shouldnt feel punishing in any way.period.

 

im for a downstate nerf aswell, rezz shouldnt be faster than stomp, thats just ridiculous

[alcopaul.2156]

downed state adds clutchyness to the game.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

I had not a single situation in that week where I thought "oh well, in this moment having no downstate sucks". But I had a lot (!) of situations where I could at least kill one of the gank squad players too, which was great and rewarding and lowered the frustraion a lot. Dying to gank squads has never been so much fun like in that week!

 

Public zerg players and newbies: Soldiers gear was once made for WvW (just look at the old NPC vendors). If you can't avoid getting killed by deadeyes and power mesmers 24/7, then run full soldiers until you learned the game.

 

[Zawn.9647]

I agree that rezzing should take longer than finishing or cleaving... Don't agree with the given reason as to make easier for 2 people kill 5

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

I didn't like the downstate weekend. Pin sniping was a bigger pain then it usually was.

 

I'm glad I'm not hearing any buzz of permanently removing it.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

I just love how people just assume stuff about other people. Good stuff. I mean Obviously I'm a newb that has no idea what I'm doing in WvW. Nevermind my high rank in WvW, or that I've had the game since HoT was released. Means nothing. Obvious newb that can't survive Thieves and Mesmers. It's all good though. You are only defending that which benefits you the most and gives you the highest reward, which is what any person would do really. Arguing on the forums is like trying to catch and bag wind using a fishing net. Just remember that for every person that thinks No Downstate is a good idea there is an equal amount that doesn't agree. Reasons varying.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

 

> During no downstate week there were more people complaining about more gankers than there were anything else. There were entire threads about it on the forums as well.

 

The same gank squads as always that week.The difference was the amount of traffic they had access to.

Mmmm so much respawn traffic.

 

 

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

>

> > During no downstate week there were more people complaining about more gankers than there were anything else. There were entire threads about it on the forums as well.

>

> The same gank squads as always that week.The difference was the amount of traffic they had access to.

> Mmmm so much respawn traffic.

>

>

>

 

And gank squads are good for the game imo. Keeps people on their toes so to speak. Games been so dead so long people forget there used to be a time when getting back to the zerg wasn't always so easy.

[Turk.5460]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

>

> > During no downstate week there were more people complaining about more gankers than there were anything else. There were entire threads about it on the forums as well.

>

> The same gank squads as always that week.The difference was the amount of traffic they had access to.

> Mmmm so much respawn traffic.

>

>

>

 

And the great thing about this was you were able to kill the gank squads. They weren't being carried by downstate with near-instant resurrections as they usually are.

[coro.3176]

I don't have a strong opinion either way, but..

 

If you get rid of down state, there really really really needs to be something done about scrapper's class mechanic. It's 100% useless in PvE. It's 50% useless in PvP, and it's currently ~90% useless in WvW (though, good if roaming). This is supposed to be a class mechanic on the same level as like, mirage cloak or celestial avatar or photon forge or full counter...

[narcx.3570]

Another interesting idea to play around with could be adding a type of resurrection sickness to the game. Where, we leave downstate as it is, whatever, but after you get rezed or rallied, you have like 50% decreased movement speed/defense/damage/reduced healing for 15 seconds or something. That way those people who really believe in strength in numbers and power rezzing will still have their advantage, but it won't be as heartbreaking when you're 1v3 and a rez gets off since you're not instantly getting blown up by a thief rejoining the fight with 100% of his burst potential or whatever. And also, since it'd be a lot easier to re-down them, it'd add another dimension to support play, rather than jut face roll power rez, you'd then have to protect the person for a bit since they're more of a sitting duck.

[Turk.5460]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> I don't have a strong opinion either way, but..

>

> If you get rid of down state, there really really really needs to be something done about scrapper's class mechanic. It's 100% useless in PvE. It's 50% useless in PvP, and it's currently ~90% useless in WvW (though, good if roaming). This is supposed to be a class mechanic on the same level as like, mirage cloak or celestial avatar or photon forge or full counter...

 

Daredevil's one extra dodge is kinda meh in the grand scheme of things, too. TBH I'd rather have the ability to rez/stomp from afar with gyro than a simple extra dodge - something that is completely overshadowed by endurance regen food and sigil of energy, anyway.

[Israel.7056]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> Another interesting idea to play around with could be adding a type of resurrection sickness to the game. Where, we leave downstate as it is, whatever, but after you get rezed or rallied, you have like 50% decreased movement speed/defense/damage/reduced healing for 15 seconds or something. That way those people who really believe in strength in numbers and power rezzing will still have their advantage, but it won't be as heartbreaking when you're 1v3 and a rez gets off since you're not instantly getting blown up by a thief rejoining the fight with 100% of his burst potential or whatever. And also, since it'd be a lot easier to re-down them, it'd add another dimension to support play, rather than jut face roll power rez, you'd then have to protect the person for a bit since they're more of a sitting duck.

 

This is actually a pretty good idea imo.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > It doesn't "disproportionately" favour a larger group any more than other things, a larger group can more afford to blow CDs on everything from boon sharing to cleansing, from carelessly tossing damage to boon corrupts, that advantage is not unique to blowing CDs to rez someone from downstate. As for rallying off downs, back when multiple players rallied off a single down it was a disproportionate advantage, but not since they changed it.

>

> It's true that the larger group has more of everything but none of that matters as much if they can be instantly eliminated. No downed state makes it possible to instantly take out large swaths of people with no second chances through resses or rallies. This makes taking on larger groups with a smaller group much much easier to do because if you can land your damage you can win and you don't have to worry about gassing out as much. With downed state you have to kill people twice and this disproportionately favors larger groups because they have more of everything which means they gas slower.

>

> This happened constantly for us during no downed state week. We would hit a map queue zerg, instantly take out 20-30 people and the rest would panic and run. I saw a lot of the better guild groups having the same experience; 20-30 people taking on map queues with much higher success rates.

 

This. This is why no downstate should be permanent. Skill should be the deciding factor in fights.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> This. This is why no downstate should be permanent. Skill should be the deciding factor in fights.

This implies that pushing a button for 10k AoE damage at 1200 range is more skillfull than deciding whether to res or not, whether to pop stab/sheilds/invouln to do that res, CC potential stompers or decide to leave the downed because it's too risky to do even if you might loose the fight because of that lost teammember.

[Traveller.7496]

I've actually come around about downed state after playing a class who frequently fights outnumbered. I can't tell the number of times I have fought a battle where I probably would've come out on top without downed state and rallying. I firmly believe that no-downed state would reward skill more than the current system where it mostly rewards numbers.

[TheBravery.9615]

itt: roamers vs "wvw veterans" that hold 1 and W

[Justine.6351]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> Another interesting idea to play around with could be adding a type of resurrection sickness to the game. Where, we leave downstate as it is, whatever, but after you get rezed or rallied, you have like 50% decreased movement speed/defense/damage/reduced healing for 15 seconds or something. That way those people who really believe in strength in numbers and power rezzing will still have their advantage, but it won't be as heartbreaking when you're 1v3 and a rez gets off since you're not instantly getting blown up by a thief rejoining the fight with 100% of his burst potential or whatever. And also, since it'd be a lot easier to re-down them, it'd add another dimension to support play, rather than jut face roll power rez, you'd then have to protect the person for a bit since they're more of a sitting duck.

 

Yeah that is one aspect people miss. Skills and Traits don't just stop recharging when in downed state, while the person trying to stomp or cleave is actively using their regular cooldowns still.

[Nate.3927]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> I think rez speed should be reduced overall. If someone starts stomping at the same time as *one player starts rezzing* - the stomp should finish before the rez. If 2 people are rezzing, fine, let their "roaming" group continue to be carried by downstate. They dedicated 2 players to out rez 1 stomping player, fair enough.

 

A single rezzer won't out rez a single stomper unless that stomper was really far away originally and the rezzer was right next to the person getting downed. The only other exception is a mercy runes healbot specialist build. So it already works the way you described.

 

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> We had a 2v5 today in WvW. The FB rezbot got all 4 of them up again two times. 8 rezzes. When you fight 2v5 (and these 5 have even a healer) you can't save skills for a FB rezz-prevention. It was so ridiculous I couldn't even rage against it.

>

> The no-downstate event was the best thing this game has seen so far!

 

I do agree that the no downstate week was fun. However arguing that the dedicated rezbot on the enemy team is preventing you form securing downs is silly. Those people are running builds that hit like wet noodles, dedicated to healing.

 

As for winning outnumbered fights, people need to accept that if in a 2v5 you can down them but not secure kills, then yes on an individual level you are probably more skilled than all 5 players on the other side, but as a group, your collective ability and teamwork does not exceed theirs. This game mode is about more than just individual skill, teamwork is also a thing. People do realize there is a thing called a downstate penalty right? Focus fire the same enemy and down them multiple times in a row and they will go insta-dead. Then you can start focus firing the rest. If you choose to switch targets each time they rez someone, that's just bad decision making on your side and is the main reason why your side lost.

 

 

[Arimas.3492]

Guys we can't remove down state or Scrapper will LITERALLY not have a mechanic!

 

I wasn't around during no downstate week sadly, but I do agree down state can be really lame sometimes. Added on the fact that some classes down state are insanely better than others. A start to make it not just rewarding for outnumbering would be to make all classes have the same set of down skills (make them WvW oriented or something), reduce the cap of ressurectors to 2 and reduce res speed so having 2 people res is only about 1.5 speed currently (not accounting for res speed increases or abilities).

 

This would make it so being downed is balanced between all classes, ressing someone takes longer and requires 2 people to be effective, and makes it so the more skillful group has a better chance of winning an outnumbered fight and rewarding their skill by getting the downs in the first place. Plus this would put more emphasis on using abilities to res players which are often underused so if you want to keep an enemy at bay while your friend is downed you should slot that skill just in case, or run the risk of not slotting it and try to outplay the enemy more.

[bigo.9037]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"bigo.9037" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > Cant win a 2v5 which is *entirerly possible with good teamwork and stomp skills*?

> > >

> > > Bring 3 people.

> > >

> > > Cant win 3v5 which is *even more possible*?

> > >

> > > Bring 4 people.

> > >

> > > Oh they brought another 2 instead so its a 4v7 now and you *still* cant win?

> > >

> > > Bring 5 people.

> > >

> > > That's not something unbalanced or broken - that's how WvW works. That's how we get massive battles. If people just won at a whim because "we're better than casuals", what's the point of fighting?

> >

> > to win? this logic is really bad, you know.

> >

> > by saying this you effectively mean that the point of fighting is just to bring more and more people. ??

> >

> > fighting should be fair. I immediately assume everyone who defends downedstate are casual noobs who never leave spawn without at least 5 other people to insta ress them when they "die"

> >

> > strength in numbers should be enough by itself.

> >

> > here's an analogy for you:

> >

> > those that make 250000$ per year pay 5% income tax, but those that make 20000$ a year pay 95% income tax. does that sound fair to you? should those who already have so much get to have it easier even though they already make so much?? no.

> >

> > so why should the smaller group have less of a chance for OTHER that the fact that they have less players?? uneven matchups happen all the time in roaming, guild v guild and zerg fighting.

>

> The logic about bringing in income tax is *so much better*. It fits *perfectly* with the discussion of downed state in WvW. Its so **logical** when you think about it. Shall we start to discuss analogies with cars, birds and possibly Trump too? I mean its only **logical**.

>

> No, the point is that loosing a fight means you need more people to win. If the enemy then loose, they need to bring more people to win. And if you loose after that, then *by logic*... you need to bring more people to won again. Strength in numbers drives WvW battles - thats why we get 70 man zergs clashing with each other. But its not the *only* thing that matters. 2v5 is such an example where skill - like in *actual skill use* - matters alot. A single knockback, a single stealth, a single stability or invouln pop, all these could secure a stomp. I've been in situations like the video above and guess what - I've won, ha. And of course I've lost. Sometimes because I was stupid, sometimes because I just needed that good wingman. Which is how WvW works. This isnt solo PvP. Skilled players already have a massive advantage in combat.

>

>

 

...

but if the reason you lost your fight in the first place is due to downed state insta ressing by pressing F then it isn't fair.

 

the problem with skill is that all it takes for the bigger group ( with the worse players ) to win is press F when one of their teammates die. if they aren't terrible enough not to press F, they will eventually win because the opponents will eventually run short on cooldowns as it's generally unsustainable to fight outnumbered for more than .. about two minutes or so if you can't finish any opponents to drive down their numbers.

 

you sound like someone who tried roaming once, ran into a group of 5 literal rank 1s with someone on your side and then you won without issue .. so downed state is fine guys it's all good.

 

every time, without question, someone defends downed state it turns out they are bad at pvp other than blob fighting..

[Celsith.2753]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Once again, the problem with no downstate is that it promotes more 1 shot insta-kill builds. During that week I saw more Mesmers and Thieves than I can shake a stick at. Also those Thieves and Mesmers would position themselves right between Spawn Point and Zerg making it impossible to get back to a Zerg once you were killed. Thieves and Mesmers are bad enough as is, adding no downstate just makes it worse.

 

Odd, my experience was different.

I saw more one shot builds for the first two days tops. Then they realized that constantly getting wrecked by rangers who knew their job in wvw was not very fun and went back to whatever they usually played, leaving the usual players to enjoy playing thief and mesmer and actually win outnumbered fights without being being carried by downstate. For the record, I played ranger, weaver and mostly renegade for the event.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"bigo.9037" said:

> the problem with skill is that all it takes for the bigger group ( with the worse players ) to win is press F when one of their teammates die. if they aren't terrible enough not to press F, they will eventually win because the opponents will eventually run short on cooldowns as it's generally unsustainable to fight outnumbered for more than .. about two minutes or so if you can't finish any opponents to drive down their numbers.

 

Why do you think commanders leave downed players to die in the meta? Because ressing is a death sentence. Mindlessly pressing F isnt how WvW works.

 

Even when fighting heavily outmanned, thats why you pull, kite, slowdown the tail and stretch the enemy forces out so you have time for a stomp. *That* is skill, not instakilling someone in a zerg and patting yourself on the back for the game giving you easymode no downed state.

 

Also tried roaming once, lol... Yeah... Mesmer as main.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> I just love how people just assume stuff about other people.

> Just remember that for every person that thinks No Downstate is a good idea there is an equal amount that doesn't agree.

 

Pot calling the kettle black in that last full sentence. Assuming you know everyone to make that assumption that the WvWers are 50/50 on no downstate. Based on the many reddit and gw2 forum threads due to that week, the vocal majority leans towards the fact no down state week was enjoyed. Whether or not the majority I speak of is the majority of active WvW'ers or if they represent the actual majority of WvW'ers, however without actually knowing this, your assumption cannot be made.

 

Just wanted to point out the contradiction on your comment. Thats all

 

Im out