Dodging while being stunned

[Tact.8063]

ok that is true just tested it (sorry just never got ccd thaaat much i just use my staff 2 and 4 or 1 stun/damage utility i run) as mesmer main i support it completly mirage cloak is good not op just good

it does not need evad on stun

[Math.5123]

> @"Tact.8063" said:

> ok that is true just tested it (sorry just never got ccd thaaat much i just use my staff 2 and 4 or 1 stun/damage utility i run) as mesmer main i support it completly mirage cloak is good not op just good

> it does not need evad on stun

 

Living up to your mistakes, well done brother.

[bravan.3876]

> @"BlackBeard.2873" said:

> I agree with the OP, being able to dodge while stunned is already OP. It does two important things to distort the balance of a fight:

>

> - Mirage doesn't have to take stunbreak utilities, allowing 1-shot mirages to just load up on damage without much risk

> - Mirage doesn't need to use positioning, utilities, and dodges intelligently to avoid both CC's (to set up burst) and burst. Instead, CC is a complete non-issue and can be ignored. This makes mirages unaffected by both immobilize AND stuns/hard-CC's. They found out that making daredevil immune to immobilize was a LITTLE OP (OK, it was a LOT OP), then they made an even better version of it for the golden child class.

>

> Mirage cloak is strong enough even if it couldn't work when stunned:

> - It lasts 1s compared to 0.75s for a normal dodge (a 33% increase in effectiveness!!)

> - It gives super-speed, enabling you to travel as far (or further thanks to the extra 0.25s) than a normal dodge.

> - It allows offensive pressure while also going immune, whereas normal dodges mean a break in offensive pressure.

> - It enables reactive invuln without interrupting other actions (ressing, stomping, etc).

>

> If it was left at this, it would already be a significant upgrade to normal dodging (with the only downside of needing to get used to turning effectively if you want to go in a direction other than forward, which might feel clunky for a short time). By adding in CC-invulnerability...mirage dodge is basically the god-mode upgrade. I am surprised they didn't make mirage dodges also do 1-shot damage...I am sure it was at least pitched.

 

You guys do not get it right? The Mirage dodge is either instant and can be used together with other skills and stomp/ resses and so is also usable during stun like every other instant skill in this game or it is not instant and can't do any of it. There will never be a Mirage dodge that is not usable when stunned but still can do everything else. Means you either delete the whole instant nature of the dodge and with it delete Mirage concept completely or you guys just have to learn how to bait dodges and time your cc and burst when Mirage is out of his dodges, that is absolutely no problem when you know how to play vs them.

 

The only Mirage builds are a problem are condi and hybrid mirage and that not because of the ability of dodging while stunned. Also Mirage cannot dodge for ages as long as the build do not use axe or illusionary ambush.

 

A power Mirage needs everything you just denied (movement, positioning, allround awareness etc.), its a build can get 2 shotted by autoattack from most other classes, being able to dodge during stun only evades some dmg, its still hard to stay alive with only active defense tools which are not chainable up to perma invulnerability (not even close), without any forgiving facetank ability and few other classes can do more while being stunned since game release (fresh air Ele for example). To stay alive with a power Mirage you need skill the moment your opponents are not completely clueless and let you freecast most of the time. Same goes for the dmg application. A lot of complicated and well telegraphed burstcombos every semi decent player knows how to avoid. Helseth said it well: "None of you plebs complaining about power Mirage would get into higher pvp rankes with it". I can't and i am sure neither of you.

 

Also for a Mirage in particular without elusive mind dodging the cc in the first place is still way better for the Mirage than eat the cc and evade the burst, not only because good player will most likely not waste their bursts after the cc when they know Mirage has a dodge rdy but more because if they get stunned they cannot fight, they are stunned and also rooted on place . When they evade the cc in the first place they can still cast skills and get away with superspeed. Thats why being able to dodge while stunned is strong but not broken/ op and it has counterplay during the old elusive mind and even the nerfed one is broken because this rly completely neutralize the cc (with very low exhaustion costs on mirages side).

[BlackBeard.2873]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"BlackBeard.2873" said:

> > I agree with the OP, being able to dodge while stunned is already OP. It does two important things to distort the balance of a fight:

> >

> > - Mirage doesn't have to take stunbreak utilities, allowing 1-shot mirages to just load up on damage without much risk

> > - Mirage doesn't need to use positioning, utilities, and dodges intelligently to avoid both CC's (to set up burst) and burst. Instead, CC is a complete non-issue and can be ignored. This makes mirages unaffected by both immobilize AND stuns/hard-CC's. They found out that making daredevil immune to immobilize was a LITTLE OP (OK, it was a LOT OP), then they made an even better version of it for the golden child class.

> >

> > Mirage cloak is strong enough even if it couldn't work when stunned:

> > - It lasts 1s compared to 0.75s for a normal dodge (a 33% increase in effectiveness!!)

> > - It gives super-speed, enabling you to travel as far (or further thanks to the extra 0.25s) than a normal dodge.

> > - It allows offensive pressure while also going immune, whereas normal dodges mean a break in offensive pressure.

> > - It enables reactive invuln without interrupting other actions (ressing, stomping, etc).

> >

> > If it was left at this, it would already be a significant upgrade to normal dodging (with the only downside of needing to get used to turning effectively if you want to go in a direction other than forward, which might feel clunky for a short time). By adding in CC-invulnerability...mirage dodge is basically the god-mode upgrade. I am surprised they didn't make mirage dodges also do 1-shot damage...I am sure it was at least pitched.

>

> You guys do not get it right? The Mirage dodge is either instant and can be used together with other skills and stomp/ resses and so is also usable during stun like every other instant skill in this game or it is not instant and can't do any of it. There will never be a Mirage dodge that is not usable when stunned but still can do everything else. Means you either delete the whole instant nature of the dodge and with it delete Mirage concept completely or you guys just have to learn how to bait dodges and time your cc and burst when Mirage is out of his dodges, that is absolutely no problem when you know how to play vs them.

 

Um....why can't it be made unusable when stunned? Sure, it might take a little programming, but it is certainly technically possible.

 

Also, the assertion that everyone is terrible b/c they don't know how to bait dodges completely ignores the point of this post/thread. The problem why mirage is so oppressive to other burst builds is because it can, for a very long time, create a conveyor of burst and invulns that can't even be really interrupted. There are only a few bulids that can effectively deal with this situation, and it destroys build diversity. It isn't a problem of not knowing how to play vs them...it is that there are many builds, even when you know where the very few weak points are, literally don't have the toolkit to deal with. Good thing mirage is super easy to rotate around and doesn't have the highest mobility of basically any build in the game....oh wait.

 

> The only Mirage builds are a problem are condi and hybrid mirage and that not because of the ability of dodging while stunned. Also Mirage cannot dodge for ages as long as the build do not use axe or illusionary ambush.

 

But they are tied together. Being able to dodge while stun, and breaking stun on-dodge clears up utility slots for more damage skills, as you no longer need to take stunbreaks to avoid being punished by a thief who leads with steal/backstab/basi (and similar opportunist openings).

 

> A power Mirage needs everything you just denied (movement, positioning, allround awareness etc.), its a build can get 2 shotted by autoattack from most other classes, being able to dodge during stun only evades some dmg, its still hard to stay alive with only active defense tools which are not chainable up to perma invulnerability (not even close), without any forgiving facetank ability and few other classes can do more while being stunned since game release (fresh air Ele for example). To stay alive with a power Mirage you need skill the moment your opponents are not completely clueless and let you freecast most of the time. Same goes for the dmg application. A lot of complicated and well telegraphed burstcombos every semi decent player knows how to avoid. Helseth said it well: "None of you plebs complaining about power Mirage would get into higher pvp rankes with it". I can't and i am sure neither of you.

 

I don't think you understood my point. I never said mirage can ignore movement, positioning, etc., I am saying that the mirage toolkit completely negates the ability of opponents to properly utilize those advantages thanks to all the instant ports/etc.

 

> Also for a Mirage in particular without elusive mind dodging the cc in the first place is still way better for the Mirage than eat the cc and evade the burst, not only because good player will most likely not waste their bursts after the cc when they know Mirage has a dodge rdy but more because if they get stunned they cannot fight, they are stunned and also rooted on place . When they evade the cc in the first place they can still cast skills and get away with superspeed. Thats why being able to dodge while stunned is strong but not broken/ op and it has counterplay during the old elusive mind and even the nerfed one is broken because this rly completely neutralize the cc (with very low exhaustion costs on mirages side).

 

Of course, pre-emptively dodging CC is better, but being unable to be punished for eating CC is an insane strength. I honestly feel like you are in denial if you think this capability isn't OP. I mean, daredevil being immune to immob was OP, and mirage cranked that up to 11 by making the spec immune to punishment from CC and immob.

[bravan.3876]

> @"BlackBeard.2873" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"BlackBeard.2873" said:

> > > I agree with the OP, being able to dodge while stunned is already OP. It does two important things to distort the balance of a fight:

> > >

> > > - Mirage doesn't have to take stunbreak utilities, allowing 1-shot mirages to just load up on damage without much risk

> > > - Mirage doesn't need to use positioning, utilities, and dodges intelligently to avoid both CC's (to set up burst) and burst. Instead, CC is a complete non-issue and can be ignored. This makes mirages unaffected by both immobilize AND stuns/hard-CC's. They found out that making daredevil immune to immobilize was a LITTLE OP (OK, it was a LOT OP), then they made an even better version of it for the golden child class.

> > >

> > > Mirage cloak is strong enough even if it couldn't work when stunned:

> > > - It lasts 1s compared to 0.75s for a normal dodge (a 33% increase in effectiveness!!)

> > > - It gives super-speed, enabling you to travel as far (or further thanks to the extra 0.25s) than a normal dodge.

> > > - It allows offensive pressure while also going immune, whereas normal dodges mean a break in offensive pressure.

> > > - It enables reactive invuln without interrupting other actions (ressing, stomping, etc).

> > >

> > > If it was left at this, it would already be a significant upgrade to normal dodging (with the only downside of needing to get used to turning effectively if you want to go in a direction other than forward, which might feel clunky for a short time). By adding in CC-invulnerability...mirage dodge is basically the god-mode upgrade. I am surprised they didn't make mirage dodges also do 1-shot damage...I am sure it was at least pitched.

> >

> > You guys do not get it right? The Mirage dodge is either instant and can be used together with other skills and stomp/ resses and so is also usable during stun like every other instant skill in this game or it is not instant and can't do any of it. There will never be a Mirage dodge that is not usable when stunned but still can do everything else. Means you either delete the whole instant nature of the dodge and with it delete Mirage concept completely or you guys just have to learn how to bait dodges and time your cc and burst when Mirage is out of his dodges, that is absolutely no problem when you know how to play vs them.

>

> Um....why can't it be made unusable when stunned? Sure, it might take a little programming, but it is certainly technically possible.

>

> Also, the assertion that everyone is terrible b/c they don't know how to bait dodges completely ignores the point of this post/thread. The problem why mirage is so oppressive to other burst builds is because it can, for a very long time, create a conveyor of burst and invulns that can't even be really interrupted. There are only a few bulids that can effectively deal with this situation, and it destroys build diversity. It isn't a problem of not knowing how to play vs them...it is that there are many builds, even when you know where the very few weak points are, literally don't have the toolkit to deal with. Good thing mirage is super easy to rotate around and doesn't have the highest mobility of basically any build in the game....oh wait.

>

> > The only Mirage builds are a problem are condi and hybrid mirage and that not because of the ability of dodging while stunned. Also Mirage cannot dodge for ages as long as the build do not use axe or illusionary ambush.

>

> But they are tied together. Being able to dodge while stun, and breaking stun on-dodge clears up utility slots for more damage skills, as you no longer need to take stunbreaks to avoid being punished by a thief who leads with steal/backstab/basi (and similar opportunist openings).

>

> > A power Mirage needs everything you just denied (movement, positioning, allround awareness etc.), its a build can get 2 shotted by autoattack from most other classes, being able to dodge during stun only evades some dmg, its still hard to stay alive with only active defense tools which are not chainable up to perma invulnerability (not even close), without any forgiving facetank ability and few other classes can do more while being stunned since game release (fresh air Ele for example). To stay alive with a power Mirage you need skill the moment your opponents are not completely clueless and let you freecast most of the time. Same goes for the dmg application. A lot of complicated and well telegraphed burstcombos every semi decent player knows how to avoid. Helseth said it well: "None of you plebs complaining about power Mirage would get into higher pvp rankes with it". I can't and i am sure neither of you.

>

> I don't think you understood my point. I never said mirage can ignore movement, positioning, etc., I am saying that the mirage toolkit completely negates the ability of opponents to properly utilize those advantages thanks to all the instant ports/etc.

>

> > Also for a Mirage in particular without elusive mind dodging the cc in the first place is still way better for the Mirage than eat the cc and evade the burst, not only because good player will most likely not waste their bursts after the cc when they know Mirage has a dodge rdy but more because if they get stunned they cannot fight, they are stunned and also rooted on place . When they evade the cc in the first place they can still cast skills and get away with superspeed. Thats why being able to dodge while stunned is strong but not broken/ op and it has counterplay during the old elusive mind and even the nerfed one is broken because this rly completely neutralize the cc (with very low exhaustion costs on mirages side).

>

> Of course, pre-emptively dodging CC is better, but being unable to be punished for eating CC is an insane strength. I honestly feel like you are in denial if you think this capability isn't OP. I mean, daredevil being immune to immob was OP, and mirage cranked that up to 11 by making the spec immune to punishment from CC and immob.

 

As said breaking out of stun with dodge should get remove. Changing the mirage dodge to something semi instant will not be possible without reprogramming the whole game and will not happen, also it doesn't need too. When they balance condi and hybrid mirage in its easy applied condi pressure and double the cd of the rly op stuff as there is axe with too low cd and illusionary ambush with too low cd than there won't be any problem with any mirage build anymore. Also all mirage builds still use blink, the only utility get removed for more dmg is portal, means even the mesmer with stunbreak on dodge use the same amount of stunbreaks in their utility bar than chrono and core did before PoF. You all try to create a problem where it is a l2p issue. Why a lot of ppl including me don't have a problem to hit a mirage and even kill them? On power mirage i shit ez with like every class except my Necro (Power Reaper can deal with them quite well but with Scourge it is very hard) and Rev. Condi/Hybrid is harder to deal with but not because of the dodge while stunned thing.

 

A mirage gets punished from being cced/ immob even when they can evade some dmg. It is simply wrong what you say. That is why dodge while still be stunned is not broken, it doesn't neutralize the whole cc and has counterplay. As long as Anet doesn't get the idea to give warrior (a class very easy and forgiving to play and can facetank player mistakes for ages) this ability i can live with that.

[Megametzler.5729]

I think you both agree about the core. The difference is just, one thinks it is possible to balance around this great ability, the other thinks it isn't.

 

Am I right? Can we move on? I don't think anyone disagrees mirage is absolutely meta right now. :wink: And even though this single ability makes mirage hardcounter a lot of builds (chrono zerker for example, thieves too, and others), I think balancing still can work. Scissors, paper, rock and stuff.

[NaturallyNick.4058]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

>and with it delete Mirage concept completely

 

/thread. We've found the solution. Let's get Chronomancer too while we're at it. It's been a plague on PvE since its inception.

[santso.9201]

They should give it half a second delay with big flashy effect and 5s icd.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> I think you both agree about the core. The difference is just, one thinks it is possible to balance around this great ability, the other thinks it isn't.

>

> Am I right? Can we move on? I don't think anyone disagrees mirage is absolutely meta right now. :wink: And even though this single ability makes mirage hardcounter a lot of builds (chrono zerker for example, thieves too, and others), I think balancing still can work. Scissors, paper, rock and stuff.

 

I neither think its possible to remove the ability to dodge while stunned nor do i think it is needed, because as i explained it doesn't negate the cc completely and has counterplay. It is a strong feature but not broken/ op. During a stunbreak on dodge even with exhaustion should not exist. Power Mirage doens't hardcouter anything. It has a good matchup vs Rev (the mu got better for Rev with the last buffs to it) and vs Necros (mostly Scouge, Reapers have a chance to win). It is a soft counter to power Chrono but not unwinable for the Chrono because he has a lot more cds when f5 is used well and mes vs mes is highly about cd management. All other classes shit on power Mirage when on same skill lvl (often even with none meta builds, for example core ranger).

 

That condi/hybrid is op is not because of the dodge during stun, it is because they are still untouchable most of the fight due to way too low cds on highly effective skills which give both: defense and high dmg. For example axe skills (maily axe 3) and illusionary ambush but also scepter with insane high blockuptime and broken hybrid dmg on scepter 3. Ineptitude should get a reword (ICD or whatever).

 

> @"NaturallyNick.4058" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> >and with it delete Mirage concept completely

>

> /thread. We've found the solution. Let's get Chronomancer too while we're at it. It's been a plague on PvE since its inception.

 

Just delete mesmer, i heard even corepower shatter is op because it can oneshot, cancer since game release!

[NaturallyNick.4058]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> Just delete mesmer, i heard even corepower shatter is op because it can oneshot, cancer since game release!

 

You joke, but deleting the mesmer elite specs would massively improve game balance and class variety. We never would have gotten firebrands with quickness or revs with alacrity if Chronomancer didn't exist. Esports might still be a thing so PvP would get some dev love, and PvE would be balanced so that classes actually felt good to play without having to have a pocket Mesmer at all times.

 

Give every level 80 a free Mesmer portal Elite skill or Toy and no one would even miss them.

 

Anet tried too hard to make a "special" class unique to them and destroyed their own game over it.

[Simonoly.4352]

Mirage Cloak sure is strong due to its versatility, but I think people are too hung up on the concept over how it actually functions in play. I generally find counting evades and not playing predictably work well for combating Mirage Cloak specifically.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Every other broken spec I can name a few specific issues that could be tweaked and it would be fine. But Mesmer is the only class I would consider fundamentally broken as a whole. The phantasm rework made it so the offensive aspect of the class never really stops, which allows it to complete full offensive and defensive rotations at the same time, then just portal away and stealth if things don't go their way. Elusive mind and mirage cloak are just icing on the cake of a much bigger design problem.

 

Anet should seriously consider totally reverting all Mesmer balance changes to mid 2017 pre-PoF, and then reworking Mirage into something completely different. As it currently stands all the buffs and changes mesmer has recieved in the past year have resulted in the entire class just being flat out bad for the game.

[bravan.3876]

Lets just dumb down this game to everyone playing core meditation guard, so low iq will never be a problem again. And balance would be perfect too

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> (...)

 

Dude, relax. Noone wants to delete mirage or the ability. It is extremely strong, but no, I do not think it makes the class OP per se. Also don't act like mirage is that hard to play - even though, well, core guard really is even more simple, yes. Mirage cloak makes it very forgiving, which is the point of the OP.

 

You main mesmer, right?

 

 

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > (...)

>

> Dude, relax. Noone wants to delete mirage or the ability. It is extremely strong, but no, I do not think it makes the class OP per se. Also don't act like mirage is that hard to play - even though, well, core guard really is even more simple, yes. Mirage cloak makes it very forgiving, which is the point of the OP.

>

> You main mesmer, right?

>

>

>

 

No i am multiclass. Mostly Necro if i need to name a class i play the most. I just get triggered by bad ppl crying about stuff they don't have any clue about nor enough skill to play themself. And the mesmer hate gets way too far since like months already. If they would do this witch hunt with any other class without discern about different builds and ask for just delete the class completely i would get triggered the same way. It is not about the class (as multiclass player i have no need to fight for a class only because it is my main, i only fight for a good balance and when ppl wanna delete good balanced or even not viable builds with high skill need only because they don't understand the class at all then this stupidity triggers). Even with mirage cloak a power shatter mes is one of the least forgiving specs to play in this game and condi/hybrid are not op because of that. But i 'm getting tired of repeating my tons of arguments over and over. Haters gonna hate, just lets hope anet do not listen too much to ppl too lazy to get good and complain in forums instead.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > (...)

> >

> > Dude, relax. Noone wants to delete mirage or the ability. It is extremely strong, but no, I do not think it makes the class OP per se. Also don't act like mirage is that hard to play - even though, well, core guard really is even more simple, yes. Mirage cloak makes it very forgiving, which is the point of the OP.

> >

> > You main mesmer, right?

> >

> >

> >

>

> No i am multiclass. Mostly Necro if i need to name a class i play the most. I just get triggered by bad ppl crying about stuff they don't have any clue about nor enough skill to play themself. And the mesmer hate gets way too far since like months already. If they would do this witch hunt with any other class without discern about different builds and ask for just delete the class completely i would get triggered the same way. It is not about the class (as multiclass player i have no need to fight for a class only because it is my main, i only fight for a good balance and when ppl wanna delete good balanced or even not viable builds with high skill need only because they don't understand the class at all then this stupidity triggers). Even with mirage cloak a power shatter mes is one of the least forgiving specs to play in this game and condi/hybrid are not op because of that. But i 'm getting tired of repeating my tons of arguments over and over. Haters gonna hate, just lets hope anet do not listen too much to ppl too lazy to get good and complain in forums instead.

 

Well, I agree that the mesmer hate is quite (too) omnipresent, yes. :tongue: Which is a shame since it is my second favourite class. I mean - yes, there are still some issues, but overall I think condi mirage is quite balanced now. It used to be a lot worse, now it is kinda on par with other meta classes.

 

They should focus on other points now.

[Falan.1839]

Everyone whining about Elusive Mind, while the staff chaos mirages denies me even my holo 3 stab cause all clones spam dodges while flooding me with tons of conditions from three clones + the mes nuking me with Chaos Vortex (staff ambush skill), while also having permanent prot and lots of stab. Honestly, I'm thankful for any mirage that picks Elusive mind, even though that means that the strongest weapon of my build (CCs) have barely any effect, because the alternative is even more cancerous. But the Metabattle guy forgot to add it to his site, so I guess it's not a thing in gold league.

[Spartacus.3192]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> And the mesmer hate gets way too far since like months already. If they would do this witch hunt with any other class without discern about different builds and ask for just delete the class completely i would get triggered the same way.

 

yup the entire community of non mesmer mains conspired many months ago to get together and flood the forums with whining threads about how OP mirage is. They even created a discord channel to discuss how they would go about requesting the nerfs. It had absolutely nothing to do with how OP the class is. It was simply pure hate.

 

/sarcasm off

 

 

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Falan.1839" said:

> Everyone whining about Elusive Mind, while the staff chaos mirages denies me even my holo 3 stab cause all clones spam dodges while flooding me with tons of conditions from three clones + the mes nuking me with Chaos Vortex (staff ambush skill), while also having permanent prot and lots of stab. Honestly, I'm thankful for any mirage that picks Elusive mind, even though that means that the strongest weapon of my build (CCs) have barely any effect, because the alternative is even more cancerous. But the Metabattle guy forgot to add it to his site, so I guess it's not a thing in gold league.

 

You didn't read the thread either, did you? It is _not_ about EM. :wink:

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

They should take Exhaustion out of Elusive Mind and make it baseline on Mirage. Even with Infinite Horizon, it usually plays out:

 

1. CC Mirage

2. Cast burst skill

3. Mirage dodges for free (no Exhaustion) while CC'd

4. You eat clone conditions or are forced to back off, wasting an opening

 

Any dodge while CC'd should result in Exhaustion.