deadeye needs nerf.

[Shroud.2307]

Bottom line on this entire subject is that WvW is not balanced around small scale combat. It has been said time and again by myself and many others.

 

Anet will put a stop to builds that are to the point it takes a small zerg to kill it while still maintaining acceptable or even high levels of lethality. Most common roaming builds are left as is only receiving low priority nerfs per-balance patch.

 

Deadeye was poorly designed but it isn't over performing, it's just obnoxious. If it were truly an issue it would be dominating high tier PvP and highly skilled players in WvW. But it isn't. It's just good at +1'ing fights and cheesing anything that heavily relies on blocks or are strictly melee.

 

I hate it as much as anyone else and I agree that removing Revel and Stealth on dodge are terrible mechanics. But it fulfills it's role as a +1 and tail sniper extremely well and WvW needs more dynamic than just death balling everything with 80 players. If anything, I hope to see more specs that are capable of picking zergs apart in the future.

 

At this point, I think it's pretty clear that Anet are designing classes to be user friendly. They're not interested in making things that require a high level of time investment to understand and play properly. They want things you can immediately get results with. Deadeye is a great success in that regard. The problem is that literally _no one_ has fun fighting them, which is an oversight on Anet's part.

[dani.4398]

> @"kash.9213" said:

>

> You don't tone down damage or utility, you stagger out stealth to make it more of a select option but more burst sustainable with Shadow Arts for when you crash into a zerg. DE is already easy enough to shake off unless they're really good and closing the distance often for Malicious Backstab, otherwise I'm trying to avoid Daredevils mostly.

 

What do you mean by staggering stealth? Is the deadeye still going to come out of stealth unnoticed and just oneshot you? Give us as example.

[Celsith.2753]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

>The problem is that literally _no one_ has fun fighting them, which is an oversight on Anet's part.

>

 

You're literally wrong, I enjoy fighting them /shrug

 

 

[zinkz.7045]

It's cute that there are new players or players who have been high as a kite for 6 years who think Anet make balance changes based on roaming in WvW.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

> It's cute that there are new players or players who have been high as a kite for 6 years who think Anet make balance changes based on roaming in WvW.

 

The complaints on this thread are about the Deadeye REWORK that was done a few months back, and since DE's aren't in a zerg, the issues at hand are about the changes ANET made "based on roaming in WvW", and to an extent in sPVP as well.

 

[zinkz.7045]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > It's cute that there are new players or players who have been high as a kite for 6 years who think Anet make balance changes based on roaming in WvW.

>

> The complaints on this thread are about the Deadeye REWORK that was done a few months back, and since DE's aren't in a zerg, the issues at hand are about the changes ANET made "based on roaming in WvW", and to an extent in sPVP as well.

 

It's cute that you think they made changes based on roaming in WvW.

 

Let me put their balance considerations into perspective for you, for years people complained about perma stealth thief in WvW roaming (in the game that laughably sold itself as not having permastealth), nothing changed, then within a week or so of a permastealth thief soloing two of their PvE raid bosses (showing what a joke the "challenging" PvE content was) it was nerfed, that says it all.

 

Balancing in this game is basically PvP and PvE raids, with the odd breadcrumb for WvW in the form of whatever is considered particularly obnoxious in large scale , e.g - warrior bubble, WvW roaming is basically an irrelevance.

[kash.9213]

> @"dani.4398" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> >

> > You don't tone down damage or utility, you stagger out stealth to make it more of a select option but more burst sustainable with Shadow Arts for when you crash into a zerg. DE is already easy enough to shake off unless they're really good and closing the distance often for Malicious Backstab, otherwise I'm trying to avoid Daredevils mostly.

>

> What do you mean by staggering stealth? Is the deadeye still going to come out of stealth unnoticed and just oneshot you? Give us as example.

 

Any build with backstab is likely to one shot you if you're running around with a glass build, Death's Judgement shouldn't unless you're built to try to one shot yourself. If stealth and re-stealth access wasn't as frequent as it can be right now with dodge to stealth and Shadow Meld you'd be less likely to see a deadeye "come out of stealth unnoticed" and would almost certainly see them blink at some point from range, which you already do if you're the type of player who's not afk. You'd also have a better chance to land something before they re-enter stealth or to apply something that can pop them out or lock them down, Basilik Venom is good for that if you're a thief yourself (BV coated on something pocketed that you can hold until they're in stealth).

[Turk.5460]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> The problem is that literally _no one_ has fun fighting them, which is an oversight on Anet's part.

 

I have plenty of fun fighting the non-SA variants like myself, but unfortunately they are extremely few and far in between nowadays. Before the re-work there were more S/P or S/D(offset) and even P/P DE's that were great fun to battle. Removing reveal with the elite was never a problem before the rework. The real thing that ruined DE was the addition of stealth on dodge and Death's Judgement as a sneak attack.

 

[DemonSeed.3528]

 

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

>The problem is that literally _no one_ has fun fighting them, which is an oversight on Anet's part.

 

 

I actually enjoy fighting them and any other class/build that people have problems with - in fact I always welcome challenges even if I know I will lose, because 1) I will learn from it, 2) it's just a game, 3) the fun is in the challenge. A lot of people get mad when their ego is shot down, but they should change their way of thinking. They need to be like thomas the tank engine or something XD

 

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > The problem is that literally _no one_ has fun fighting them, which is an oversight on Anet's part.

>

> I have plenty of fun fighting the non-SA variants like myself, but unfortunately they are extremely few and far in between nowadays. Before the re-work there were more S/P or S/D(offset) and even P/P DE's that were great fun to battle. Removing reveal with the elite was never a problem before the rework. The real thing that ruined DE was the addition of stealth on dodge and Death's Judgement as a sneak attack.

>

 

Let me rephrase. The great majority of players do not enjoy fighting DE. I don't exactly have statistics to support this statement but given the number of complaints both on the forum(s) and in game, I'm inclined to say this is true.

 

I agree that removing Reveal wasn't an issue before the Stealth on dodge rework but I still feel that a counter to a counter is bad design. I'm sure you understand that it only exacerbates the issues that are already present regardless of whether you agree that Reveal removal is okay. Since you say "before the rework" I assume this is true.

 

Deadeye is a weak spec with strong mechanics. It sacrifices stronger utility (Steal) to gain effective gimmicks. It does not offer the necessary tools to properly fight an experienced player but instead offers options to exploit mistakes. Like offering a knight an option between the traditional sword and shield or a sledge hammer.

[kash.9213]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > The problem is that literally _no one_ has fun fighting them, which is an oversight on Anet's part.

> >

> > I have plenty of fun fighting the non-SA variants like myself, but unfortunately they are extremely few and far in between nowadays. Before the re-work there were more S/P or S/D(offset) and even P/P DE's that were great fun to battle. Removing reveal with the elite was never a problem before the rework. The real thing that ruined DE was the addition of stealth on dodge and Death's Judgement as a sneak attack.

> >

>

> Let me rephrase. The great majority of players do not enjoy fighting DE. I don't exactly have statistics to support this statement but given the number of complaints both on the forum(s) and in game, I'm inclined to say this is true.

>

> I agree that removing Reveal wasn't an issue before the Stealth on dodge rework but I still feel that a counter to a counter is bad design. I'm sure you understand that it only exacerbates the issues that are already present regardless of whether you agree that Reveal removal is okay. Since you say "before the rework" I assume this is true.

>

> Deadeye is a weak spec with strong mechanics. It sacrifices stronger utility (Steal) to gain effective gimmicks. It does not offer the necessary tools to properly fight an experienced player but instead offers options to exploit mistakes. Like offering a knight an option between the traditional sword and shield or a sledge hammer.

 

Going by the forums, most thief players aren't playing heavily into stealth if even DE. If the mechanics are strong, how is it a weak spec to the person using it? How is Steal stronger than Mark for a ranged build? What tools specifically are lacking to fight "experienced" players?

[sneakytails.5629]

**Rifle Deadeye has evolved beyond the Metabattle version.** While the Metabattle version is annoying to fight it is still possible to counter it and kill it. The problem is that experienced players have been theory-crafting on DE since the changes, and it has become almost impossible to counter on these new builds outside of sheer numbers or just dumb luck.

 

So you come up against builds like this, Perma stealth with the boon rip/ CC/one shot. So now you have a strong Boon rip/CC that pretty much takes away any hope of actually dodging the oneshot.

 

the build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAUVnsMB1FjlPBOOBUGjFiCbLLNaCA8fyS5rkrCkAmAA-jVSBQBG7CAYGlgA4BEkQ1fwjuk8ph4K7PK/0whUYBHJgAAJA/yvkv8LB+lf5X+lf5X668lf5X+lf5X+lf5X+lSBUlkN-w

 

In action: :Watch Wvw FA Roaming On DE Last day of Easy Week from SW4G4TR0N on www.twitch.tv

 

This build is proof that the old tired argument about DJ being "easy to dodge" and having "the biggest tell in the game" is total BS. There is absolutely zero counterplay to this DE build, and its not the only one out there. You hit the target with CC and then plaster them, there is no mofo dodging because you are freaking locked down.

 

Boon rip/CC./ with an unblockable attack coming out of stealth. I did not see a single enemy actually kill this guy 1v1 and he was dropping enemies like flies for hours.

 

DE is broken ASF.

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

that build is still far from optimised sneakytails..

 

and your right the animation of binding shadows shouldnt be hidden by stealth.

[enkidu.5937]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> In action: :Watch Wvw FA Roaming On DE Last day of Easy Week from SW4G4TR0N on www.twitch.tv

>

> This build is proof that the old tired argument about DJ being "easy to dodge" and having "the biggest tell in the game" is total BS. There is absolutely zero counterplay to this DE build, and its not the only one out there. You hit the target with CC and then plaster them, there is no mofo dodging because you are freaking locked down.

>

> Boon rip/CC./ with an unblockable attack coming out of stealth. I did not see a single enemy actually kill this guy 1v1 and he was dropping enemies like flies for hours.

>

> DE is broken ASF.

>

I watched to minute 6, when this braindeadeye was shooting several times at a spellbreaker, who activated his defiant stand heal, and got healed by the braindeadeyes attacks. You can see the green numbers pop up on attack, but this clueless twitch-guy keeps shooting and goes "wow, he healed up to full HP!?!" lol

 

Then he makes the kill and goes "I'm good, I'm actually really good." xD So funny / sad / whatever . . .

 

 

[Riko.9214]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> the build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAUVnsMB1FjlPBOOBUGjFiCbLLNaCA8fyS5rkrCkAmAA-jVSBQBG7CAYGlgA4BEkQ1fwjuk8ph4K7PK/0whUYBHJgAAJA/yvkv8LB+lf5X+lf5X668lf5X+lf5X+lf5X+lSBUlkN-w

>

> In action: :Watch Wvw FA Roaming On DE Last day of Easy Week from SW4G4TR0N on www.twitch.tv

>

> This build is proof that the old tired argument about DJ being "easy to dodge" and having "the biggest tell in the game" is total BS. There is absolutely zero counterplay to this DE build, and its not the only one out there. You hit the target with CC and then plaster them, there is no mofo dodging because you are freaking locked down.

 

I did not watch the whole thing, but I noticed that the remotely solo "roaming" part is only first 20(30?) min or so and even then he mostly pillaging paper-builds and wounded enemies around the battlefield (like this SB at around 6:00 that was practically already dead, so the fact that he did mess up and did not pay attention to the icons changed nothing)

 

The only remotely viable build he was fighting 1v1 and won (in the parts I clicked through) was FB at around 4:30 but he was clearly not a roamer with full-melee and low mobility also who also messed up big time and jumped away from his target.

 

That is not to mention his build is 0 at sustained fighting under pressure (that is required for roaming rather than pillaging) with a single stun-break on a long cooldown that can only efficiently remove damaging conditions (basically only DR for 5/12 ini cost for a single cripple or chill).

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE.

> > > >

> > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build.

> > >

> >

> > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him.

>

> That strawman argument doesnt apply. Its very rare that I ask for nerfs, but when something is so blown out of proportion that it definately needs nerfing, my reaction is not a negative reaction due to how others play. Its due to abusing the shinola out of the mechanic myself to the point where I can get away with shenanigans I would not be able to get away with on another class/build.

>

> You think someone's knocking on the door for me? No, I'm the one who knocks.

 

It's not a straw man, you're simply refusing to listen to the answers people are giving you and are confusing elements from different builds. It's easy to show this by looking at two distinct builds for deadeye;

 

1) Full valkyrie gear running scholar runes, SA/CS/DE with D/P and rifle, standard permastealth deadeye that people complain about. This build can permastealth, and has extremely high spike out of stealth (death's judgement and malicious backstab can hit for 20-30k depending on the opponent) but it lacks sustained damage, often having to reset if the burst fails. Valk armor gives the build somewhere in the region of 20k health, slightly less if you play optimally and mix a couple berserker/marauder pieces to take advantage of critical strike's crit chance bonuses. It's not required to take trickery, since it's two burst skills (death's judgement and malicious backstab) do not consume initiative, and between SA and M7 there is plenty of ini generation in the build. It's only condi cleanse traited is shadow's embrace, which only removes damaging conditions. So, unless it sacrifices assassin's signet or binding shadows (utilities necessary for landing the high burst), the only way it can remove condis like weakness or immob are shadowstep (50s cooldown, easy to see when it's been used and is also the only stunbreak), withdraw (assuming they run that over hide in shadows, which also only removes damaging condis) or death's retreat (can only use twice in succession due to 12 ini max, and also means they are forced to use shadow meld or stolen ability to stealth). This means that using skills that inflict weakness deprives them of their guaranteed crit from stealth and forces them to use more resources in order to stealth. As mentioned, they also cannot spam death's retreat to chase or retreat while maintaining permastealth due to having 12 max ini and the skill costing 5 ini, and in most cases rely on physically walking behind the opponent for a backstab making them vulnerable to AoE. All this makes the build heavily weak to reveal, since you lock the thief out of it's sustain, stealth, it's main damage skills and also it's ability to crit, so almost all variants will carry shadow meld. This makes a combination of reval, CC and high spike damage very effective against this build when used correctly.

 

Tldr: perma stealth, extreme spike damage but low sustained damage, lower chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to reveal, weakness and immob. Counters; Power shatter mirage (if fast with the spike you can just one shot a deadeye), holosmith/scrapper (lots of reveals and CC, arguably the hardest matchup for this spec), herald (also a hard match, depends largely how good the rev is), other deadeyes.

 

2) Full marauder gear with durability runes, acro/trickery/DE with S/P and rifle, skirmisher build focussing on high CC and quickness to land damage. This build cannot permastealth, although it has enough to chain together when needed through stolen items. It also relies on less highly damaging spikes than build 1 (death's judgement and pistol whip hit from 8-12k roughly), it does not generally spike from stealth but uses mobility and evades to keep itself alive, and is more focussed on controlling the opponent through boon steal and CC than one shotting them. It has to take trickery and mercy for ini management purposes, since taking be quick or be killed in DE for the quickness means no ini regen from M7, and of the two burst skills (pistol whip and death's judgement) pistol whip uses a lot of ini when considering a sustained assault. It's damaging condi cleanses are death's retreat, sword 2 and shadow step, possibly pain response if you trait for it. In general the build is much more susceptible to condis, and relies on finishing the opponent quickly instead of cleansing through their burst. The build has trickery and either mercy or roll for initiative, and due to it not relying on stealth heavily it can freely use death's retreat for mobility. The build can also use trickster for added condi cleanse, although slight of hand is almost always the better choice of trait due to how often mark can be reset (17s cooldown on mark, swindler's equilibrium and mercy give a lot of boonsteal with bountiful theft, and combined with slight of hand you have a 1500 range daze that works through stability). Don't stop from acro means this build is less susceptible to immobilise, and two stunbreaks with an autoproc evade means it can survive some CC but can still be locked down. S/P gives it hard CC, evades and a reliable gap closer, and when on this set it is dependant on stolen skills or shadow meld to access stealth.

 

Tldr; some stealth but not perma, lower spike damage but better sustained damage, high chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to high condi spike and opponents that spike from extreme range. Counters; Mirage, both power and condi (when played well the mirage shouldn't really take a hit before it has chance to spike the deadeye down), holosmith/scrapper (still arguably the hardest matchup for deadeye), daredevil (well played D/P daredevils should just interrupt everything then spike, almost everything deadeye does has a cast time) ranger (core, druid and soulbeast can all be challenging), high sustain builds like druid/soulbeast and ele (they can often wear you down while sustaining all of your hits).

 

Both builds do not serve the same function, and have different weaknesses. Build 1 is the one people complain about, but you are assuming that deadeyes with the mobility and evades of build 2 also have the stealth and high spike from build 1. Unless you run 4 specialisations at once, you can't get it all. Build 1 is a perfect storm of not needing ini for the high spike, which frees up a specialisation slot usually taken by trickery. Taking CS with hidden killer means you don't have to run zerk and can have 20k health while not sacrificing damage, and the levels of spike means the only defense that's needed is stealth since fights end very quickly. ANet is likely aware of the problem build 1 poses, hence why they increased the ini cost of rifle 3 from 4 to 6 ini, severely cutting rifle's sustained damage unless you take trickery. What ACTUALLY needs to happen is for stealth to be addressed, either by trying to force that trade off between critical strikes and trickery again (which is what they attempted to do with the rifle 3 ini nerf), or by altering stealth somehow. Making the SA specialisation second minor trait increase the duration of reveal as well as the duration of stealth, and making reveal applied by yourself by attacking not cleansable with shadow meld (so it only works vs reveals applied by an enemy) would mean the stealth assassin playstyle is still a thing, the high spike is still possible, but it means if the spike fails it gives adequate reaction time for someone to turn and punish the deadeye. Everybody wins.

 

In short, I'm not opposed to nerfs to deadeye. I'm simply asking that people ask for nerfs to the right build for the right reasons, and don't try to nerf builds that aren't overperforming and don't rely on the things that make the permastealth build what it is.

 

PS; and yes I realise I told the other guy not to bother arguing then wrote an essay, lol.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"dani.4398" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> >

> > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite...

>

> Usually after the 1 year mark Anet is able to tone down the elite specs that they release after an expansion. After PoF, we saw it mainly with the nerfs to Scourge, FB, SB, Mirage and Holo we also saw some buffs and reworks DE and Slb between other specs.

>

> DE proves hard to balance due to it's broken design, tell me:: how do you balance a spec that's meant to take more than 50% of the opponent's health on the initial hit? Also don't forget this happens while the DE sits on stealth, how is an opponent of any other spec supposed to counter it? And if the opponent manages to counter it, how does it deal with the insane utility the DE spec has due to traits, skills and WvW mechanics?

>

> So what do you do? Do you tone down the damage? Do you tone down utility? If you touch one or the other the spec dies, cause it's the combination of both which makes it so annoying and effective. Sucks, but this is Anet's fault for such poor design of a spec. And don't get me wrong, I'd like for every spec to have a way to be viable, but you can't have that when the spec was designed without thinking of the player vs player aspect.

>

> I doubt many players go around saying "jezz, that was such a good fight vs that DE, he 2 shotted me, but lit fight!" or "jezz, I lasted longer than I have ever lasted against that DE, but after his 16th stealth reengage he finally got me!". Most players just want to feel like they have a chance vs whatever they face in WvW, but when the game mechanics make it so boring that a spec can literally just 11111 you, you kind of quit playing.

>

> Here is a jewel from my lad Noody, I think his video shows it better than my words:

 

The thing is, what's he's doing here is possible on daredevil too. The difference is that deadeye can do it while taking SA for extra sustain, not instead of, and that's the bit that needs addressing.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"dani.4398" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > >

> > > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite...

> >

> > Usually after the 1 year mark Anet is able to tone down the elite specs that they release after an expansion. After PoF, we saw it mainly with the nerfs to Scourge, FB, SB, Mirage and Holo we also saw some buffs and reworks DE and Slb between other specs.

> >

> > DE proves hard to balance due to it's broken design, tell me:: how do you balance a spec that's meant to take more than 50% of the opponent's health on the initial hit? Also don't forget this happens while the DE sits on stealth, how is an opponent of any other spec supposed to counter it? And if the opponent manages to counter it, how does it deal with the insane utility the DE spec has due to traits, skills and WvW mechanics?

> >

> > So what do you do? Do you tone down the damage? Do you tone down utility? If you touch one or the other the spec dies, cause it's the combination of both which makes it so annoying and effective. Sucks, but this is Anet's fault for such poor design of a spec. And don't get me wrong, I'd like for every spec to have a way to be viable, but you can't have that when the spec was designed without thinking of the player vs player aspect.

> >

> > I doubt many players go around saying "jezz, that was such a good fight vs that DE, he 2 shotted me, but lit fight!" or "jezz, I lasted longer than I have ever lasted against that DE, but after his 16th stealth reengage he finally got me!". Most players just want to feel like they have a chance vs whatever they face in WvW, but when the game mechanics make it so boring that a spec can literally just 11111 you, you kind of quit playing.

> >

> > Here is a jewel from my lad Noody, I think his video shows it better than my words:

>

> The thing is, what's he's doing here is possible on daredevil too. The difference is that deadeye can do it while taking SA for extra sustain, not instead of, and that's the bit that needs addressing.

 

why do you think daredevil cant take SA doing it? daredevil just doesnt have to take SA for condi remove as they got EA but that doesnt mean he cant use it and do the same.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"dani.4398" said:

> > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > >

> > > > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite...

> > >

> > > Usually after the 1 year mark Anet is able to tone down the elite specs that they release after an expansion. After PoF, we saw it mainly with the nerfs to Scourge, FB, SB, Mirage and Holo we also saw some buffs and reworks DE and Slb between other specs.

> > >

> > > DE proves hard to balance due to it's broken design, tell me:: how do you balance a spec that's meant to take more than 50% of the opponent's health on the initial hit? Also don't forget this happens while the DE sits on stealth, how is an opponent of any other spec supposed to counter it? And if the opponent manages to counter it, how does it deal with the insane utility the DE spec has due to traits, skills and WvW mechanics?

> > >

> > > So what do you do? Do you tone down the damage? Do you tone down utility? If you touch one or the other the spec dies, cause it's the combination of both which makes it so annoying and effective. Sucks, but this is Anet's fault for such poor design of a spec. And don't get me wrong, I'd like for every spec to have a way to be viable, but you can't have that when the spec was designed without thinking of the player vs player aspect.

> > >

> > > I doubt many players go around saying "jezz, that was such a good fight vs that DE, he 2 shotted me, but lit fight!" or "jezz, I lasted longer than I have ever lasted against that DE, but after his 16th stealth reengage he finally got me!". Most players just want to feel like they have a chance vs whatever they face in WvW, but when the game mechanics make it so boring that a spec can literally just 11111 you, you kind of quit playing.

> > >

> > > Here is a jewel from my lad Noody, I think his video shows it better than my words:

> >

> > The thing is, what's he's doing here is possible on daredevil too. The difference is that deadeye can do it while taking SA for extra sustain, not instead of, and that's the bit that needs addressing.

>

> why do you think daredevil cant take SA doing it? daredevil just doesnt have to take SA for condi remove as they got EA but that doesnt mean he cant use it and do the same.

 

It's more the tradeoff between damaging specs, sustain specs, trickery and elite specs that I'm addressing there. It's a lot easier to fit SA into a deadeye build as it doesn't need trickery, but daredevil is more reliant on it. Obviously nothing stopping someone from doing it, if they wanted, but the damage/sustain balance isn't the same as for deadeye because of the trickery dependancy.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"dani.4398" said:

> > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite...

> > > >

> > > > Usually after the 1 year mark Anet is able to tone down the elite specs that they release after an expansion. After PoF, we saw it mainly with the nerfs to Scourge, FB, SB, Mirage and Holo we also saw some buffs and reworks DE and Slb between other specs.

> > > >

> > > > DE proves hard to balance due to it's broken design, tell me:: how do you balance a spec that's meant to take more than 50% of the opponent's health on the initial hit? Also don't forget this happens while the DE sits on stealth, how is an opponent of any other spec supposed to counter it? And if the opponent manages to counter it, how does it deal with the insane utility the DE spec has due to traits, skills and WvW mechanics?

> > > >

> > > > So what do you do? Do you tone down the damage? Do you tone down utility? If you touch one or the other the spec dies, cause it's the combination of both which makes it so annoying and effective. Sucks, but this is Anet's fault for such poor design of a spec. And don't get me wrong, I'd like for every spec to have a way to be viable, but you can't have that when the spec was designed without thinking of the player vs player aspect.

> > > >

> > > > I doubt many players go around saying "jezz, that was such a good fight vs that DE, he 2 shotted me, but lit fight!" or "jezz, I lasted longer than I have ever lasted against that DE, but after his 16th stealth reengage he finally got me!". Most players just want to feel like they have a chance vs whatever they face in WvW, but when the game mechanics make it so boring that a spec can literally just 11111 you, you kind of quit playing.

> > > >

> > > > Here is a jewel from my lad Noody, I think his video shows it better than my words:

> > >

> > > The thing is, what's he's doing here is possible on daredevil too. The difference is that deadeye can do it while taking SA for extra sustain, not instead of, and that's the bit that needs addressing.

> >

> > why do you think daredevil cant take SA doing it? daredevil just doesnt have to take SA for condi remove as they got EA but that doesnt mean he cant use it and do the same.

>

> It's more the tradeoff between damaging specs, sustain specs, trickery and elite specs that I'm addressing there. It's a lot easier to fit SA into a deadeye build as it doesn't need trickery, but daredevil is more reliant on it. Obviously nothing stopping someone from doing it, if they wanted, but the damage/sustain balance isn't the same as for deadeye because of the trickery dependancy.

 

nope you only depend on trickery if you intend to use other stuff aside from that backstab bursts, for sustained fights.

deadeye going for oneshot also will use BQoBK for the 200 power and therefor depend as much on trickery as daredevil.

 

if you want to put the big bursts to later in the fight you could aswell increase the malice bonus damage and reduce base damage of malicious backstab / deaths judgement. this would nerf the deadeye oneshot version but it wont hurt the ones that play with stealth but for sustained fights not killing you instantly. currently its often just not worth to build up the malice as the base damage is high.

 

but i guess that wont happen as traiting deadeye would then nerf a core weapon skill (backstab).

[Horan.7013]

> @"Reh.5986" said:

> Just fix the perma stealth nonsense so they have to work a bit and fix the psychotic 1 shot lvl dmg without malice on the actual target. Other classes would like to run glass too and not every class has six years of endure pain on passive.

>

> Counter play shouldn't be random dodging when no1 is around or rolling firebrand/spellbreaker/holo.

>

> If you have a mark on you, aside from DE's ability to ignore reveal, then we're at least getting into an area where you know you're in a fight and may get 1shot.

 

 

Not trying to be sarcastic or anything but are you saying those above mentioned classes are so OP that even DE gimmick build can’t take it down?

 

Real problem with theif is that it doesn’t have any alternative way to play the game that is somewhat competitive. Look at other roamers like ranger and holo or warrior. Can a theif face them like a man without going into stealth?

 

Why thief suck at PvP?

Can’t contest a node. Can’t duel with any other class but another thief.

 

It’s poor class design at its pinnacle. Sniper game play doesn’t belong in GW2.

And Anet gave it to the worst possible class. A class that has stealth.

A stealthy sniper in GW2.

 

Now how do we balance this without making DE a trash tier or OP tier?

 

Theif in general have very little to offer to a group. Any nerf in a wrong way will make them useless in PvE and PvP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aspirine.6852]

After seeing a streamer playing against a deadeye I really noticed how stupid this class is. How can you create such a shit class is beyond me. I tend to avoid them myself so i dont see them that much. But this is just plain stupid and unfunny.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> After seeing a streamer playing against a deadeye I really noticed how stupid this class is. How can you create such a kitten class is beyond me. I tend to avoid them myself so i dont see them that much. But this is just plain stupid and unfunny.

 

if you need to watch streams to find a deadeye, they cant be a huge issue to the mode.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> Bottom line on this entire subject is that WvW is not balanced around small scale combat. It has been said time and again by myself and many others.

>

> Anet will put a stop to builds that are to the point it takes a small zerg to kill it while still maintaining acceptable or even high levels of lethality. Most common roaming builds are left as is only receiving low priority nerfs per-balance patch.

>

> Deadeye was poorly designed but it isn't over performing, it's just obnoxious. If it were truly an issue it would be dominating high tier PvP and highly skilled players in WvW. But it isn't. It's just good at +1'ing fights and cheesing anything that heavily relies on blocks or are strictly melee.

>

> I hate it as much as anyone else and I agree that removing Revel and Stealth on dodge are terrible mechanics. But it fulfills it's role as a +1 and tail sniper extremely well and WvW needs more dynamic than just death balling everything with 80 players. If anything, I hope to see more specs that are capable of picking zergs apart in the future.

>

> At this point, I think it's pretty clear that Anet are designing classes to be user friendly. They're not interested in making things that require a high level of time investment to understand and play properly. They want things you can immediately get results with. Deadeye is a great success in that regard. The problem is that literally _no one_ has fun fighting them, which is an oversight on Anet's part.

 

First, I don't think it's true that WvW isn't balanced around small scale. It is **primarily** balanced around zerg vs. zerg but at least some balance is aimed at roaming, 1v1 and small scale.

 

The argument that the build is allowable because it's not actually effective at helping you win (in the game mode) isn't a good one. You said it yourself; the build is obnoxious and used only to troll. Should no-risk trolling really be an option available to players? From an ethical standpoint, no. All it will do is discourage victims which leads to less players playing this game mode. It's just a destructive build.

 

The fact that DE is a +1, tail-sniper and zerg harrasser is fine. I agree with you too that there should be more to the game mode than just face-rolling with a zerg all the time.

 

The problem is counterplay. If a solo roamer, or player trying to catch up to the zerg wants to build to counter a DE that can hit 17k+ malicious backstabs from stealth and completely out of combat, what can they do? A DE can approach you in stealth from outside of your draw distance, so spacing/preemptive striking is out of the question. Then, even if you know they're around, they can run out your utilities since they can permanently maintain stealth if they so wish. Third, you can't take passive life-saver traits since their damage is done in single lump-sum. Fourth, you can't use stealth reveal traps since they can remove revealed.

 

One of the legs of this table needs to be knocked out from under it. Either the stealth stacking, the damage of the skill itself, or the stacking multipliers. I'm not sure which would be best, but something should be done. There are plenty of changes that could be aimed only at DE too so as not to hurt all DE builds too much and not hurt other thief builds at all.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"dani.4398" said:

> > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite...

> > > > >

> > > > > Usually after the 1 year mark Anet is able to tone down the elite specs that they release after an expansion. After PoF, we saw it mainly with the nerfs to Scourge, FB, SB, Mirage and Holo we also saw some buffs and reworks DE and Slb between other specs.

> > > > >

> > > > > DE proves hard to balance due to it's broken design, tell me:: how do you balance a spec that's meant to take more than 50% of the opponent's health on the initial hit? Also don't forget this happens while the DE sits on stealth, how is an opponent of any other spec supposed to counter it? And if the opponent manages to counter it, how does it deal with the insane utility the DE spec has due to traits, skills and WvW mechanics?

> > > > >

> > > > > So what do you do? Do you tone down the damage? Do you tone down utility? If you touch one or the other the spec dies, cause it's the combination of both which makes it so annoying and effective. Sucks, but this is Anet's fault for such poor design of a spec. And don't get me wrong, I'd like for every spec to have a way to be viable, but you can't have that when the spec was designed without thinking of the player vs player aspect.

> > > > >

> > > > > I doubt many players go around saying "jezz, that was such a good fight vs that DE, he 2 shotted me, but lit fight!" or "jezz, I lasted longer than I have ever lasted against that DE, but after his 16th stealth reengage he finally got me!". Most players just want to feel like they have a chance vs whatever they face in WvW, but when the game mechanics make it so boring that a spec can literally just 11111 you, you kind of quit playing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is a jewel from my lad Noody, I think his video shows it better than my words:

> > > >

> > > > The thing is, what's he's doing here is possible on daredevil too. The difference is that deadeye can do it while taking SA for extra sustain, not instead of, and that's the bit that needs addressing.

> > >

> > > why do you think daredevil cant take SA doing it? daredevil just doesnt have to take SA for condi remove as they got EA but that doesnt mean he cant use it and do the same.

> >

> > It's more the tradeoff between damaging specs, sustain specs, trickery and elite specs that I'm addressing there. It's a lot easier to fit SA into a deadeye build as it doesn't need trickery, but daredevil is more reliant on it. Obviously nothing stopping someone from doing it, if they wanted, but the damage/sustain balance isn't the same as for deadeye because of the trickery dependancy.

>

> nope you only depend on trickery if you intend to use other stuff aside from that backstab bursts, for sustained fights.

> deadeye going for oneshot also will use BQoBK for the 200 power and therefor depend as much on trickery as daredevil.

 

I don't know, I never found bqobk particularly useful on a oneshot build after the initial engage as it telegraphs your spike (mark = quickness = incoming spike kind of logic), limits the damage at max malice and it loses the boons and ini of M7 for quickness that doesn't help all that much for this build imo. It's much simpler to just put a rage sigil on your D/P set to get quickness for the autos after the initial backstab (in case something barely survives) and stick with M7, that way if the initial hit doesn't connect you don't have to drop combat entirely. Since I only swap to D/P when I'm sure I can get a kill that's often enough.

 

Also, don't forget how restealthing is affected by ini. Deadeye without trickery can permastealth with smoke fields and rifle dodges without using utilities, and once it uses ini to get malice it gets most of the ini back from M7, whereas a daredevil without trickery at minimum has to use bound plus channeled vigour every second stealth chain to do the same thing (assuming two bounds and two heartseekers per stealth rotation) and it has to play a lot more carefully with ini to make sure it can restealth. You are correct, the same thing is possible, my point is more that deadeye makes it much easier both build wise and playstyle wise.

 

> if you want to put the big bursts to later in the fight you could aswell increase the malice bonus damage and reduce base damage of malicious backstab / deaths judgement. this would nerf the deadeye oneshot version but it wont hurt the ones that play with stealth but for sustained fights not killing you instantly. currently its often just not worth to build up the malice as the base damage is high.

>

> but i guess that wont happen as traiting deadeye would then nerf a core weapon skill (backstab).

 

Pretty much this. I'd rather see nerfs to stealth personally, I mean, I don't want to nerf the damage as if mesmer ele warrior soulbeast etc etc can one shot why not us, the thing is that even if they stealth for the burst, if you're paying proper attention to your surroundings you know they're coming and a spike is imminent.

 

The other issue I think most people have is that there's no good window to punish a bad player; proper use of shadow meld means they're not even visible for the 3s after the oneshot, you know? The spec could do with more obvious times where it can be punished, I'd be hypocritical in my dislike for the mirage being able to dodge while stunned without conceding that. I've advocated changing the stealth a few times now, we've both discussed it on a few threads, I just don't want to see blanket nerfs to things that won't actually have the desired effect or that just remove deadeye from play entirely.

 

As you and others have said before, deadeye isn't even that much of an issue in WvW and serves as a +1 ganker type of build, it just so happens to distill all the things that make people go bananas when they're killed by a thief into one build lol.