deadeye needs nerf.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > > @"dani.4398" said:

> > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Usually after the 1 year mark Anet is able to tone down the elite specs that they release after an expansion. After PoF, we saw it mainly with the nerfs to Scourge, FB, SB, Mirage and Holo we also saw some buffs and reworks DE and Slb between other specs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > DE proves hard to balance due to it's broken design, tell me:: how do you balance a spec that's meant to take more than 50% of the opponent's health on the initial hit? Also don't forget this happens while the DE sits on stealth, how is an opponent of any other spec supposed to counter it? And if the opponent manages to counter it, how does it deal with the insane utility the DE spec has due to traits, skills and WvW mechanics?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So what do you do? Do you tone down the damage? Do you tone down utility? If you touch one or the other the spec dies, cause it's the combination of both which makes it so annoying and effective. Sucks, but this is Anet's fault for such poor design of a spec. And don't get me wrong, I'd like for every spec to have a way to be viable, but you can't have that when the spec was designed without thinking of the player vs player aspect.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I doubt many players go around saying "jezz, that was such a good fight vs that DE, he 2 shotted me, but lit fight!" or "jezz, I lasted longer than I have ever lasted against that DE, but after his 16th stealth reengage he finally got me!". Most players just want to feel like they have a chance vs whatever they face in WvW, but when the game mechanics make it so boring that a spec can literally just 11111 you, you kind of quit playing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here is a jewel from my lad Noody, I think his video shows it better than my words:

> > > > >

> > > > > The thing is, what's he's doing here is possible on daredevil too. The difference is that deadeye can do it while taking SA for extra sustain, not instead of, and that's the bit that needs addressing.

> > > >

> > > > why do you think daredevil cant take SA doing it? daredevil just doesnt have to take SA for condi remove as they got EA but that doesnt mean he cant use it and do the same.

> > >

> > > It's more the tradeoff between damaging specs, sustain specs, trickery and elite specs that I'm addressing there. It's a lot easier to fit SA into a deadeye build as it doesn't need trickery, but daredevil is more reliant on it. Obviously nothing stopping someone from doing it, if they wanted, but the damage/sustain balance isn't the same as for deadeye because of the trickery dependancy.

> >

> > nope you only depend on trickery if you intend to use other stuff aside from that backstab bursts, for sustained fights.

> > deadeye going for oneshot also will use BQoBK for the 200 power and therefor depend as much on trickery as daredevil.

>

> I don't know, I never found bqobk particularly useful on a oneshot build after the initial engage as it telegraphs your spike (mark = quickness = incoming spike kind of logic), limits the damage at max malice and it loses the boons and ini of M7 for quickness that doesn't help all that much for this build imo. It's much simpler to just put a rage sigil on your D/P set to get quickness for the autos after the initial backstab (in case something barely survives) and stick with M7, that way if the initial hit doesn't connect you don't have to drop combat entirely. Since I only swap to D/P when I'm sure I can get a kill that's often enough.

>

i switch to BQoBK if i see it very likely that my target wont survive the initial engage, because well 200 power + quickness. if my target survives its no longer a oneshot and in that longer fight indeed m7 becomes quickly better.

> Also, don't forget how restealthing is affected by ini. Deadeye without trickery can permastealth with smoke fields and rifle dodges without using utilities, and once it uses ini to get malice it gets most of the ini back from M7, whereas a daredevil without trickery at minimum has to use bound plus channeled vigour every second stealth chain to do the same thing (assuming two bounds and two heartseekers per stealth rotation) and it has to play a lot more carefully with ini to make sure it can restealth. You are correct, the same thing is possible, my point is more that deadeye makes it much easier both build wise and playstyle wise.

>

the main difference is that if you build deadeye for a more sustained fight with stealth, they still dont need trickery where daredevil does. this as such is not really an issue. i actually think deadeye shouldnt be pushed into trickery because the mark serves a different purpose than steal and is not as flexible.

BQoBK or m7 is just one traitchoice but it kind of changes alot about the build. leaving everything else the same one can have a durable build for sustained fights with m7 or a build with very high opening burst using BQoBK - but it doesnt push you enough in your choosen direction maybe.

now obviously if you just want that opening burst you dont need SA and could go with 2 offensive lines but that is in many cases inefficient. trickery only provides 15%, DA also doesnt provide much anymore to a full health target and you cant instant cast stolen items anymore for a revealed backstab with more conditions. one could buff the opening burst provided by trickery/DA to give more incentive to use them aswell or give BQoBK a buff and a nerf in increasing the power bonus to 300 but also increasing your reveal time from stealth attacks by a second. then you wouldnt affect other builds but have a longer window to punish the oneshot variant.

the ones running m7 ,wich is intended to be for more sustained fights given that it returns ini every time you build your malice and provides higher buildup damage but no bonus to initial engage, those have too high opening burst. they can basically try a oneshot with a little lowered lethality compared to the ones going for the quick kill but if it doesnt kill the target they just getting started, they dont run out of resources quickly yet the opening burst provided by suprise will already put the possible longer fight heavily in their favor. we could add my above suggestion to this trait ( lowered base damage of malicious attacks and better scaling with malice) so picking deadeye wont nerf your backstab, just picking m7 will push its lethality to a later point in the fight. with lowered base damage on m7 one could think about losing malice on missed stealth attacks, this would avoid the 2 phase fight were you build up malice and then try and try till you land and win - meaning it would keep the fight going even if your opponent can avoid your stealth attacks.

i think if those 2 traits would like this define their intended playstyle more , then it wouldn't be as much a 'all in one' no matter what you choose. and because i like my above suggestion again: moving the unblockable from DJ to rifle 2 would also help with the apperantly many bad deadeyes, as the badeyes i fought were usually glassy and started with that one so... reflecting it would onehit them.

 

[fuzzyp.6295]

Just gonna add my two cents in here to hope Arena-Net reads the feed back. I think Deadeye, as a stealth sniper, should have the ability to one shot kill squishys and deal high single target damage. It fits with the theme of a sniper. And I say this as an ele main, the class without any reveal skills, lowest HP and lowest armor. Its annoying, but I get it. I think it fits... as long as it is done with a rifle. The deadeye one shot kill on dagger should probably be looked at. There isn't much you can do to counter it. I run about now with focus always on earth just in preparation of being ganked. But even with my finger over 5, server lag and just how quickly they come... its really hard to avoid. Atleast with Mesmers, you can see the stun and try and react to that first before they continue their burst. I rarely touch thief, so I don't claim to offer any solutions for any OHKO build not using rifle, but I think Anet should take a look again.

 

As for the rifle deadeyes, I do think that Death's Judgement should probably become blockable considering how easy it is for the Deadeye to run stealth and repeat now. (or atleast let swirling winds destroy it pls ^^) And Shadow Meld... probably needs to be nerfed slightly. Perhaps increase the cool down to like 60 seconds or even 90 seconds if they increase the stealth duration. Removing reveal is pretty powerful considering how much of the DE's kit revolves around it. Or perhaps keep the cooldown the same but remove the on stealth effect, just to give us some chance to counter play the Deadeye since they can already stealth up pretty easy.

 

Also, a bit off topic perhaps but still hoping one day Ele can get a reveal skill. :(

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"dani.4398" said:

> > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> >

> > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field.

>

> Man, the mental gymnastics you guys do in order to keep that broken designed spec in the game. "Just blast for weakness" LOL, are you kidding me? Read what the OG posted, you engage the fight in stealth, you will have 2 dodges, you will have reveal removal, you will have mobility, you most likely will have an energy sigil which instantly gives you 50% endurance back, you'll have the might on dodge food + 40% endurance regeneration. Did you read? And now you're telling me "just blast for weakness" LOL. Deadeye is not unbeatable, but it sure is hard as hell to catch one thanks to it's broken design and WvW mechanics.

>

> And thanks to it's broken design, it will either have to be OP or dead. Now let's see, we're close to the 1 year anniversary of PoF, you guys already had your fun. I'm guessing the DE meme will soon die.

 

That sounds "casual balanced eneough", u guys should know Anet dont want to punish players in offensive combat, they just carry them :P to make them keep playing the game.

 

DO u guys really think dev's care about it? its a game to leech from broken gimmicks and be carried 99% of the time, that's how u make a casual game, a casual that plays a gimmick build will most time a better performance than most decent players that play non gimmick builds, that why this game has easy output damage and supidity amounts of aoe spam.

 

Sadly this gimmick builds is part of gw2 desing.

[SoV.5139]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE.

> > > > >

> > > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him.

> >

> > That strawman argument doesnt apply. Its very rare that I ask for nerfs, but when something is so blown out of proportion that it definately needs nerfing, my reaction is not a negative reaction due to how others play. Its due to abusing the shinola out of the mechanic myself to the point where I can get away with shenanigans I would not be able to get away with on another class/build.

> >

> > You think someone's knocking on the door for me? No, I'm the one who knocks.

>

> It's not a straw man, you're simply refusing to listen to the answers people are giving you and are confusing elements from different builds. It's easy to show this by looking at two distinct builds for deadeye;

>

> 1) Full valkyrie gear running scholar runes, SA/CS/DE with D/P and rifle, standard permastealth deadeye that people complain about. This build can permastealth, and has extremely high spike out of stealth (death's judgement and malicious backstab can hit for 20-30k depending on the opponent) but it lacks sustained damage, often having to reset if the burst fails. Valk armor gives the build somewhere in the region of 20k health, slightly less if you play optimally and mix a couple berserker/marauder pieces to take advantage of critical strike's crit chance bonuses. It's not required to take trickery, since it's two burst skills (death's judgement and malicious backstab) do not consume initiative, and between SA and M7 there is plenty of ini generation in the build. It's only condi cleanse traited is shadow's embrace, which only removes damaging conditions. So, unless it sacrifices assassin's signet or binding shadows (utilities necessary for landing the high burst), the only way it can remove condis like weakness or immob are shadowstep (50s cooldown, easy to see when it's been used and is also the only stunbreak), withdraw (assuming they run that over hide in shadows, which also only removes damaging condis) or death's retreat (can only use twice in succession due to 12 ini max, and also means they are forced to use shadow meld or stolen ability to stealth). This means that using skills that inflict weakness deprives them of their guaranteed crit from stealth and forces them to use more resources in order to stealth. As mentioned, they also cannot spam death's retreat to chase or retreat while maintaining permastealth due to having 12 max ini and the skill costing 5 ini, and in most cases rely on physically walking behind the opponent for a backstab making them vulnerable to AoE. All this makes the build heavily weak to reveal, since you lock the thief out of it's sustain, stealth, it's main damage skills and also it's ability to crit, so almost all variants will carry shadow meld. This makes a combination of reval, CC and high spike damage very effective against this build when used correctly.

>

> Tldr: perma stealth, extreme spike damage but low sustained damage, lower chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to reveal, weakness and immob. Counters; Power shatter mirage (if fast with the spike you can just one shot a deadeye), holosmith/scrapper (lots of reveals and CC, arguably the hardest matchup for this spec), herald (also a hard match, depends largely how good the rev is), other deadeyes.

>

> 2) Full marauder gear with durability runes, acro/trickery/DE with S/P and rifle, skirmisher build focussing on high CC and quickness to land damage. This build cannot permastealth, although it has enough to chain together when needed through stolen items. It also relies on less highly damaging spikes than build 1 (death's judgement and pistol whip hit from 8-12k roughly), it does not generally spike from stealth but uses mobility and evades to keep itself alive, and is more focussed on controlling the opponent through boon steal and CC than one shotting them. It has to take trickery and mercy for ini management purposes, since taking be quick or be killed in DE for the quickness means no ini regen from M7, and of the two burst skills (pistol whip and death's judgement) pistol whip uses a lot of ini when considering a sustained assault. It's damaging condi cleanses are death's retreat, sword 2 and shadow step, possibly pain response if you trait for it. In general the build is much more susceptible to condis, and relies on finishing the opponent quickly instead of cleansing through their burst. The build has trickery and either mercy or roll for initiative, and due to it not relying on stealth heavily it can freely use death's retreat for mobility. The build can also use trickster for added condi cleanse, although slight of hand is almost always the better choice of trait due to how often mark can be reset (17s cooldown on mark, swindler's equilibrium and mercy give a lot of boonsteal with bountiful theft, and combined with slight of hand you have a 1500 range daze that works through stability). Don't stop from acro means this build is less susceptible to immobilise, and two stunbreaks with an autoproc evade means it can survive some CC but can still be locked down. S/P gives it hard CC, evades and a reliable gap closer, and when on this set it is dependant on stolen skills or shadow meld to access stealth.

>

> Tldr; some stealth but not perma, lower spike damage but better sustained damage, high chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to high condi spike and opponents that spike from extreme range. Counters; Mirage, both power and condi (when played well the mirage shouldn't really take a hit before it has chance to spike the deadeye down), holosmith/scrapper (still arguably the hardest matchup for deadeye), daredevil (well played D/P daredevils should just interrupt everything then spike, almost everything deadeye does has a cast time) ranger (core, druid and soulbeast can all be challenging), high sustain builds like druid/soulbeast and ele (they can often wear you down while sustaining all of your hits).

>

> Both builds do not serve the same function, and have different weaknesses. Build 1 is the one people complain about, but you are assuming that deadeyes with the mobility and evades of build 2 also have the stealth and high spike from build 1. Unless you run 4 specialisations at once, you can't get it all. Build 1 is a perfect storm of not needing ini for the high spike, which frees up a specialisation slot usually taken by trickery. Taking CS with hidden killer means you don't have to run zerk and can have 20k health while not sacrificing damage, and the levels of spike means the only defense that's needed is stealth since fights end very quickly. ANet is likely aware of the problem build 1 poses, hence why they increased the ini cost of rifle 3 from 4 to 6 ini, severely cutting rifle's sustained damage unless you take trickery. What ACTUALLY needs to happen is for stealth to be addressed, either by trying to force that trade off between critical strikes and trickery again (which is what they attempted to do with the rifle 3 ini nerf), or by altering stealth somehow. Making the SA specialisation second minor trait increase the duration of reveal as well as the duration of stealth, and making reveal applied by yourself by attacking not cleansable with shadow meld (so it only works vs reveals applied by an enemy) would mean the stealth assassin playstyle is still a thing, the high spike is still possible, but it means if the spike fails it gives adequate reaction time for someone to turn and punish the deadeye. Everybody wins.

>

> In short, I'm not opposed to nerfs to deadeye. I'm simply asking that people ask for nerfs to the right build for the right reasons, and don't try to nerf builds that aren't overperforming and don't rely on the things that make the permastealth build what it is.

>

> PS; and yes I realise I told the other guy not to bother arguing then wrote an essay, lol.

 

It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him.

> > >

> > > That strawman argument doesnt apply. Its very rare that I ask for nerfs, but when something is so blown out of proportion that it definately needs nerfing, my reaction is not a negative reaction due to how others play. Its due to abusing the shinola out of the mechanic myself to the point where I can get away with shenanigans I would not be able to get away with on another class/build.

> > >

> > > You think someone's knocking on the door for me? No, I'm the one who knocks.

> >

> > It's not a straw man, you're simply refusing to listen to the answers people are giving you and are confusing elements from different builds. It's easy to show this by looking at two distinct builds for deadeye;

> >

> > 1) Full valkyrie gear running scholar runes, SA/CS/DE with D/P and rifle, standard permastealth deadeye that people complain about. This build can permastealth, and has extremely high spike out of stealth (death's judgement and malicious backstab can hit for 20-30k depending on the opponent) but it lacks sustained damage, often having to reset if the burst fails. Valk armor gives the build somewhere in the region of 20k health, slightly less if you play optimally and mix a couple berserker/marauder pieces to take advantage of critical strike's crit chance bonuses. It's not required to take trickery, since it's two burst skills (death's judgement and malicious backstab) do not consume initiative, and between SA and M7 there is plenty of ini generation in the build. It's only condi cleanse traited is shadow's embrace, which only removes damaging conditions. So, unless it sacrifices assassin's signet or binding shadows (utilities necessary for landing the high burst), the only way it can remove condis like weakness or immob are shadowstep (50s cooldown, easy to see when it's been used and is also the only stunbreak), withdraw (assuming they run that over hide in shadows, which also only removes damaging condis) or death's retreat (can only use twice in succession due to 12 ini max, and also means they are forced to use shadow meld or stolen ability to stealth). This means that using skills that inflict weakness deprives them of their guaranteed crit from stealth and forces them to use more resources in order to stealth. As mentioned, they also cannot spam death's retreat to chase or retreat while maintaining permastealth due to having 12 max ini and the skill costing 5 ini, and in most cases rely on physically walking behind the opponent for a backstab making them vulnerable to AoE. All this makes the build heavily weak to reveal, since you lock the thief out of it's sustain, stealth, it's main damage skills and also it's ability to crit, so almost all variants will carry shadow meld. This makes a combination of reval, CC and high spike damage very effective against this build when used correctly.

> >

> > Tldr: perma stealth, extreme spike damage but low sustained damage, lower chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to reveal, weakness and immob. Counters; Power shatter mirage (if fast with the spike you can just one shot a deadeye), holosmith/scrapper (lots of reveals and CC, arguably the hardest matchup for this spec), herald (also a hard match, depends largely how good the rev is), other deadeyes.

> >

> > 2) Full marauder gear with durability runes, acro/trickery/DE with S/P and rifle, skirmisher build focussing on high CC and quickness to land damage. This build cannot permastealth, although it has enough to chain together when needed through stolen items. It also relies on less highly damaging spikes than build 1 (death's judgement and pistol whip hit from 8-12k roughly), it does not generally spike from stealth but uses mobility and evades to keep itself alive, and is more focussed on controlling the opponent through boon steal and CC than one shotting them. It has to take trickery and mercy for ini management purposes, since taking be quick or be killed in DE for the quickness means no ini regen from M7, and of the two burst skills (pistol whip and death's judgement) pistol whip uses a lot of ini when considering a sustained assault. It's damaging condi cleanses are death's retreat, sword 2 and shadow step, possibly pain response if you trait for it. In general the build is much more susceptible to condis, and relies on finishing the opponent quickly instead of cleansing through their burst. The build has trickery and either mercy or roll for initiative, and due to it not relying on stealth heavily it can freely use death's retreat for mobility. The build can also use trickster for added condi cleanse, although slight of hand is almost always the better choice of trait due to how often mark can be reset (17s cooldown on mark, swindler's equilibrium and mercy give a lot of boonsteal with bountiful theft, and combined with slight of hand you have a 1500 range daze that works through stability). Don't stop from acro means this build is less susceptible to immobilise, and two stunbreaks with an autoproc evade means it can survive some CC but can still be locked down. S/P gives it hard CC, evades and a reliable gap closer, and when on this set it is dependant on stolen skills or shadow meld to access stealth.

> >

> > Tldr; some stealth but not perma, lower spike damage but better sustained damage, high chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to high condi spike and opponents that spike from extreme range. Counters; Mirage, both power and condi (when played well the mirage shouldn't really take a hit before it has chance to spike the deadeye down), holosmith/scrapper (still arguably the hardest matchup for deadeye), daredevil (well played D/P daredevils should just interrupt everything then spike, almost everything deadeye does has a cast time) ranger (core, druid and soulbeast can all be challenging), high sustain builds like druid/soulbeast and ele (they can often wear you down while sustaining all of your hits).

> >

> > Both builds do not serve the same function, and have different weaknesses. Build 1 is the one people complain about, but you are assuming that deadeyes with the mobility and evades of build 2 also have the stealth and high spike from build 1. Unless you run 4 specialisations at once, you can't get it all. Build 1 is a perfect storm of not needing ini for the high spike, which frees up a specialisation slot usually taken by trickery. Taking CS with hidden killer means you don't have to run zerk and can have 20k health while not sacrificing damage, and the levels of spike means the only defense that's needed is stealth since fights end very quickly. ANet is likely aware of the problem build 1 poses, hence why they increased the ini cost of rifle 3 from 4 to 6 ini, severely cutting rifle's sustained damage unless you take trickery. What ACTUALLY needs to happen is for stealth to be addressed, either by trying to force that trade off between critical strikes and trickery again (which is what they attempted to do with the rifle 3 ini nerf), or by altering stealth somehow. Making the SA specialisation second minor trait increase the duration of reveal as well as the duration of stealth, and making reveal applied by yourself by attacking not cleansable with shadow meld (so it only works vs reveals applied by an enemy) would mean the stealth assassin playstyle is still a thing, the high spike is still possible, but it means if the spike fails it gives adequate reaction time for someone to turn and punish the deadeye. Everybody wins.

> >

> > In short, I'm not opposed to nerfs to deadeye. I'm simply asking that people ask for nerfs to the right build for the right reasons, and don't try to nerf builds that aren't overperforming and don't rely on the things that make the permastealth build what it is.

> >

> > PS; and yes I realise I told the other guy not to bother arguing then wrote an essay, lol.

>

> It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. **Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.**

 

lol esports in WvW? even with an idealised 'perfect profession balance' this wouldnt be a thing.

[Turk.5460]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.

 

As usual, you seem consumed with how the argument is presented against you rather than the content of the argument itself... Lets try this again: @"Jugglemonkey.8741" explained in great detail why the things you are complaining about are not all part of *one mythical cheating build that somehow uses more than 3 traitlines.* What do you have to say in response to his explanation of the game facts?

[SoV.5139]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.

>

> As usual, you seem consumed with how the argument is presented against you rather than the content of the argument itself... Lets try this again: @"Jugglemonkey.8741" explained in great detail why the things you are complaining about are not all part of *one mythical cheating build that somehow uses more than 3 traitlines.* What do you have to say in response to his explanation of the game facts?

 

Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

 

The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down. The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

[SoV.5139]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him.

> > > >

> > > > That strawman argument doesnt apply. Its very rare that I ask for nerfs, but when something is so blown out of proportion that it definately needs nerfing, my reaction is not a negative reaction due to how others play. Its due to abusing the shinola out of the mechanic myself to the point where I can get away with shenanigans I would not be able to get away with on another class/build.

> > > >

> > > > You think someone's knocking on the door for me? No, I'm the one who knocks.

> > >

> > > It's not a straw man, you're simply refusing to listen to the answers people are giving you and are confusing elements from different builds. It's easy to show this by looking at two distinct builds for deadeye;

> > >

> > > 1) Full valkyrie gear running scholar runes, SA/CS/DE with D/P and rifle, standard permastealth deadeye that people complain about. This build can permastealth, and has extremely high spike out of stealth (death's judgement and malicious backstab can hit for 20-30k depending on the opponent) but it lacks sustained damage, often having to reset if the burst fails. Valk armor gives the build somewhere in the region of 20k health, slightly less if you play optimally and mix a couple berserker/marauder pieces to take advantage of critical strike's crit chance bonuses. It's not required to take trickery, since it's two burst skills (death's judgement and malicious backstab) do not consume initiative, and between SA and M7 there is plenty of ini generation in the build. It's only condi cleanse traited is shadow's embrace, which only removes damaging conditions. So, unless it sacrifices assassin's signet or binding shadows (utilities necessary for landing the high burst), the only way it can remove condis like weakness or immob are shadowstep (50s cooldown, easy to see when it's been used and is also the only stunbreak), withdraw (assuming they run that over hide in shadows, which also only removes damaging condis) or death's retreat (can only use twice in succession due to 12 ini max, and also means they are forced to use shadow meld or stolen ability to stealth). This means that using skills that inflict weakness deprives them of their guaranteed crit from stealth and forces them to use more resources in order to stealth. As mentioned, they also cannot spam death's retreat to chase or retreat while maintaining permastealth due to having 12 max ini and the skill costing 5 ini, and in most cases rely on physically walking behind the opponent for a backstab making them vulnerable to AoE. All this makes the build heavily weak to reveal, since you lock the thief out of it's sustain, stealth, it's main damage skills and also it's ability to crit, so almost all variants will carry shadow meld. This makes a combination of reval, CC and high spike damage very effective against this build when used correctly.

> > >

> > > Tldr: perma stealth, extreme spike damage but low sustained damage, lower chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to reveal, weakness and immob. Counters; Power shatter mirage (if fast with the spike you can just one shot a deadeye), holosmith/scrapper (lots of reveals and CC, arguably the hardest matchup for this spec), herald (also a hard match, depends largely how good the rev is), other deadeyes.

> > >

> > > 2) Full marauder gear with durability runes, acro/trickery/DE with S/P and rifle, skirmisher build focussing on high CC and quickness to land damage. This build cannot permastealth, although it has enough to chain together when needed through stolen items. It also relies on less highly damaging spikes than build 1 (death's judgement and pistol whip hit from 8-12k roughly), it does not generally spike from stealth but uses mobility and evades to keep itself alive, and is more focussed on controlling the opponent through boon steal and CC than one shotting them. It has to take trickery and mercy for ini management purposes, since taking be quick or be killed in DE for the quickness means no ini regen from M7, and of the two burst skills (pistol whip and death's judgement) pistol whip uses a lot of ini when considering a sustained assault. It's damaging condi cleanses are death's retreat, sword 2 and shadow step, possibly pain response if you trait for it. In general the build is much more susceptible to condis, and relies on finishing the opponent quickly instead of cleansing through their burst. The build has trickery and either mercy or roll for initiative, and due to it not relying on stealth heavily it can freely use death's retreat for mobility. The build can also use trickster for added condi cleanse, although slight of hand is almost always the better choice of trait due to how often mark can be reset (17s cooldown on mark, swindler's equilibrium and mercy give a lot of boonsteal with bountiful theft, and combined with slight of hand you have a 1500 range daze that works through stability). Don't stop from acro means this build is less susceptible to immobilise, and two stunbreaks with an autoproc evade means it can survive some CC but can still be locked down. S/P gives it hard CC, evades and a reliable gap closer, and when on this set it is dependant on stolen skills or shadow meld to access stealth.

> > >

> > > Tldr; some stealth but not perma, lower spike damage but better sustained damage, high chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to high condi spike and opponents that spike from extreme range. Counters; Mirage, both power and condi (when played well the mirage shouldn't really take a hit before it has chance to spike the deadeye down), holosmith/scrapper (still arguably the hardest matchup for deadeye), daredevil (well played D/P daredevils should just interrupt everything then spike, almost everything deadeye does has a cast time) ranger (core, druid and soulbeast can all be challenging), high sustain builds like druid/soulbeast and ele (they can often wear you down while sustaining all of your hits).

> > >

> > > Both builds do not serve the same function, and have different weaknesses. Build 1 is the one people complain about, but you are assuming that deadeyes with the mobility and evades of build 2 also have the stealth and high spike from build 1. Unless you run 4 specialisations at once, you can't get it all. Build 1 is a perfect storm of not needing ini for the high spike, which frees up a specialisation slot usually taken by trickery. Taking CS with hidden killer means you don't have to run zerk and can have 20k health while not sacrificing damage, and the levels of spike means the only defense that's needed is stealth since fights end very quickly. ANet is likely aware of the problem build 1 poses, hence why they increased the ini cost of rifle 3 from 4 to 6 ini, severely cutting rifle's sustained damage unless you take trickery. What ACTUALLY needs to happen is for stealth to be addressed, either by trying to force that trade off between critical strikes and trickery again (which is what they attempted to do with the rifle 3 ini nerf), or by altering stealth somehow. Making the SA specialisation second minor trait increase the duration of reveal as well as the duration of stealth, and making reveal applied by yourself by attacking not cleansable with shadow meld (so it only works vs reveals applied by an enemy) would mean the stealth assassin playstyle is still a thing, the high spike is still possible, but it means if the spike fails it gives adequate reaction time for someone to turn and punish the deadeye. Everybody wins.

> > >

> > > In short, I'm not opposed to nerfs to deadeye. I'm simply asking that people ask for nerfs to the right build for the right reasons, and don't try to nerf builds that aren't overperforming and don't rely on the things that make the permastealth build what it is.

> > >

> > > PS; and yes I realise I told the other guy not to bother arguing then wrote an essay, lol.

> >

> > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. **Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.**

>

> lol esports in WvW? even with an idealised 'perfect profession balance' this wouldnt be a thing.

 

GW2 used to have more of an eSports presence in PVP and once tried to drum some up in WvW.. Didnt work. Wonder why.

 

Actually I dont wonder why, because I know the answer, per above.

[SoV.5139]

..........Dp

 

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

Here is the post I replied to:

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned.

>

> Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it.

You: Claims weakness wiped in stealth. Claims condi wiped on tricks. Claims vanish/reset/keeps ambushing.

Everyone else: You need 4 traitlines for that.

You: GOALPOSTS! STAWMAN! AD HOMINEM! www.yourlogicalfallacyis.com !

 

> The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down. The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

 

Have you even been reading the thread? A nerf is *exactly what I want to happen.*

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> Please keep in mind that I *clearly* have been advocating the removal of perma-stealth/stealth on dodge.

[kash.9213]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.

> >

> > As usual, you seem consumed with how the argument is presented against you rather than the content of the argument itself... Lets try this again: @"Jugglemonkey.8741" explained in great detail why the things you are complaining about are not all part of *one mythical cheating build that somehow uses more than 3 traitlines.* What do you have to say in response to his explanation of the game facts?

>

> Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

>

> **The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down.** The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

 

The thief forums has better discussions and arguments about stealth and other issues. If this thread brings some attention to those threads then that would be great. I can think of maybe two thieves who post regularly on the forums who have anything even close to the build you think we're all holding on to for some reason and they've also contributed to discussions reasonably to deal with that issue and others. No thief is defending some perma one shot build, you're willfully ignorant if you're going to continue on that note. One thing you are right about, no thief wants a "nerf bat to come down" because the thief forum knows well enough that a knee jerk reaction nerf is going to unduly funnel strengths to something even worse, or maybe you like nerfs and reactionary changes that lead to things like Malicious Backstab.

[SoV.5139]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.

> > >

> > > As usual, you seem consumed with how the argument is presented against you rather than the content of the argument itself... Lets try this again: @"Jugglemonkey.8741" explained in great detail why the things you are complaining about are not all part of *one mythical cheating build that somehow uses more than 3 traitlines.* What do you have to say in response to his explanation of the game facts?

> >

> > Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

> >

> > **The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down.** The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

>

> The thief forums has better discussions and arguments about stealth and other issues. If this thread brings some attention to those threads then that would be great. I can think of maybe two thieves who post regularly on the forums who have anything even close to the build you think we're all holding on to for some reason and they've also contributed to discussions reasonably to deal with that issue and others. No thief is defending some perma one shot build, you're willfully ignorant if you're going to continue on that note. One thing you are right about, no thief wants a "nerf bat to come down" because the thief forum knows well enough that a knee jerk reaction nerf is going to unduly funnel strengths to something even worse, or maybe you like nerfs and reactionary changes that lead to things like Malicious Backstab.

 

We've seen quite a few people saying its fine as is actually.

 

Also: You guys seriously need stop claiming Im talking about one specific build. That was someone elses goal post moving in attempt to regulate the discussion to only specific abilities, after challenging another poster about how the class does a specific thing and being shown how it is accomplished (but that ONE BUILD doesnt take those abilities so somehow thats irrelevant).

 

If the nerf bat does get swung, it will hardly be knee jerk reactionary, as multiple threads on the topic have gone up since the rework happened, in multiple different sub forums. They feature the same few people copy pasting that disagreement = must not play the class and such. Constantly last wording the same few other posters will continue to draw attention to the issue. Well done.

[SoV.5139]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

> Here is the post I replied to:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned.

> >

> > Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it.

> You: Claims weakness wiped in stealth. Claims condi wiped on tricks. Claims vanish/reset/keeps ambushing.

> Everyone else: You need 4 traitlines for that.

> You: GOALPOSTS! STAWMAN! AD HOMINEM! www.yourlogicalfallacyis.com !

>

> > The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down. The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

>

> Have you even been reading the thread? A nerf is *exactly what I want to happen.*

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > Please keep in mind that I *clearly* have been advocating the removal of perma-stealth/stealth on dodge.

 

The goal post moving is the claim of needing 4 trait lines on a thief in order to satisfy your original challenge, which did not initially limit the abilities that could be taken until multiple posters took you to school on it, and only then did you respond with the arbitrary limitation. Any objective reader who reads the entire thread rather than cherry picking semantics for several pages after the goal post moving ran out of steam, understands this.

 

Lets also make very clear that you arent simply advocating for perma stealth to go away, you lobby for compensation for perma-stealth nerf and have claimed its thieves only defense. When shown otherwise (after challenging people to show otherwise), thats when the festival of the goal post moving commenced, attempting to relegate the conversation to one specific build only.

 

Office pool on how many iterations of last-wording is still on. Someones always wrong on the internet, right? XD

[kash.9213]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.

> > > >

> > > > As usual, you seem consumed with how the argument is presented against you rather than the content of the argument itself... Lets try this again: @"Jugglemonkey.8741" explained in great detail why the things you are complaining about are not all part of *one mythical cheating build that somehow uses more than 3 traitlines.* What do you have to say in response to his explanation of the game facts?

> > >

> > > Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

> > >

> > > **The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down.** The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

> >

> > The thief forums has better discussions and arguments about stealth and other issues. If this thread brings some attention to those threads then that would be great. I can think of maybe two thieves who post regularly on the forums who have anything even close to the build you think we're all holding on to for some reason and they've also contributed to discussions reasonably to deal with that issue and others. No thief is defending some perma one shot build, you're willfully ignorant if you're going to continue on that note. One thing you are right about, no thief wants a "nerf bat to come down" because the thief forum knows well enough that a knee jerk reaction nerf is going to unduly funnel strengths to something even worse, or maybe you like nerfs and reactionary changes that lead to things like Malicious Backstab.

>

> We've seen quite a few people saying its fine as is actually.

>

> Also: You guys seriously need stop claiming Im talking about one specific build. That was someone elses goal post moving in attempt to regulate the discussion to only specific abilities, after challenging another poster about how the class does a specific thing and being shown how it is accomplished (but that ONE BUILD doesnt take those abilities so somehow thats irrelevant).

>

> If the nerf bat does get swung, it will hardly be knee jerk reactionary, as multiple threads on the topic have gone up since the rework happened, in multiple different sub forums. They feature the same few people copy pasting that disagreement = must not play the class and such. Constantly last wording the same few other posters will continue to draw attention to the issue. Well done.

 

No one cared before the the big DE build change, people wrote the whole spec off as being weak and underperforming and the only real complaint in WvW was having to wait for Malice to build up before the DE opened up. One of the first if not the first post in response to the build change thread was my complaint about the new Silent Scope and problems it would create but no one here cared anyway because DE was a joke apparently. The damage of DE and Death's Judgment are mostly fine apart from built up Malicious Backstab. Stealth is mostly fine apart from Silent Scope and Shadow Meld. Play DE without Silent Scope and Shadow Meld and tell me how it's overpowered. It does come down to pretty much one build or people would have been posting constantly before the big change as well. If you're having problems with mechanics apart from that build, ask questions, get help, overcome.

 

Feel free to keep up on the thief forums also so the next time a proposed change is announced by the devs you can weight in before changes are made and then maybe log on to your thief to help test the changes and see what we can pick apart.

[Turk.5460]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

> > Here is the post I replied to:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned.

> > >

> > > Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it.

> > You: Claims weakness wiped in stealth. Claims condi wiped on tricks. Claims vanish/reset/keeps ambushing.

> > Everyone else: You need 4 traitlines for that.

> > You: GOALPOSTS! STAWMAN! AD HOMINEM! www.yourlogicalfallacyis.com !

> >

> > > The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down. The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

> >

> > Have you even been reading the thread? A nerf is *exactly what I want to happen.*

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > Please keep in mind that I *clearly* have been advocating the removal of perma-stealth/stealth on dodge.

>

> The goal post moving is the claim of needing 4 trait lines on a thief in order to satisfy your original challenge, which did not initially limit the abilities that could be taken until multiple posters took you to school on it, and only then did you respond with the arbitrary limitation.

Once again, though you still seem to be missing the point, perma stealth Thieves that can do as you described *do not use the trickery traitline.* Also, not that I think weakness is a counter to perma stealth, it's humorously convenient how you haven't even acknowledged that weakness is not removed by Shadow's Embrace. The below excerpt is not taken out of context, as you are replying directly to someone saying that weakness is a counter (weakness being the only condi they mentioned in the post you replied to).

 

> @"SoV.5139" said:

>That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth...

 

Onward:

>Any objective reader who reads the entire thread rather than cherry picking semantics for several pages after the goal post moving ran out of steam, understands this.

It seems as you are only arguing for the sake of arguing, or your fragile pride is not allowing you to publicly concede after you have been proven wrong and ignorant of game mechanics/actual builds time and time again regarding the topic at hand. *Nobody has agreed with you, shouldn't that clue you in?*

 

> Lets also make very clear that you arent simply advocating for perma stealth to go away, you lobby for compensation for perma-stealth nerf and have claimed its thieves only defense. When shown otherwise (after challenging people to show otherwise), thats when the festival of the goal post moving commenced, attempting to relegate the conversation to one specific build only.

 

Really? Where do I say any of that? Please reply with direct quotes from me to validate your accusation.

[SoV.5139]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.

> > > > >

> > > > > As usual, you seem consumed with how the argument is presented against you rather than the content of the argument itself... Lets try this again: @"Jugglemonkey.8741" explained in great detail why the things you are complaining about are not all part of *one mythical cheating build that somehow uses more than 3 traitlines.* What do you have to say in response to his explanation of the game facts?

> > > >

> > > > Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

> > > >

> > > > **The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down.** The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

> > >

> > > The thief forums has better discussions and arguments about stealth and other issues. If this thread brings some attention to those threads then that would be great. I can think of maybe two thieves who post regularly on the forums who have anything even close to the build you think we're all holding on to for some reason and they've also contributed to discussions reasonably to deal with that issue and others. No thief is defending some perma one shot build, you're willfully ignorant if you're going to continue on that note. One thing you are right about, no thief wants a "nerf bat to come down" because the thief forum knows well enough that a knee jerk reaction nerf is going to unduly funnel strengths to something even worse, or maybe you like nerfs and reactionary changes that lead to things like Malicious Backstab.

> >

> > We've seen quite a few people saying its fine as is actually.

> >

> > Also: You guys seriously need stop claiming Im talking about one specific build. That was someone elses goal post moving in attempt to regulate the discussion to only specific abilities, after challenging another poster about how the class does a specific thing and being shown how it is accomplished (but that ONE BUILD doesnt take those abilities so somehow thats irrelevant).

> >

> > If the nerf bat does get swung, it will hardly be knee jerk reactionary, as multiple threads on the topic have gone up since the rework happened, in multiple different sub forums. They feature the same few people copy pasting that disagreement = must not play the class and such. Constantly last wording the same few other posters will continue to draw attention to the issue. Well done.

>

> No one cared before the the big DE build change, people wrote the whole spec off as being weak and underperforming and the only real complaint in WvW was having to wait for Malice to build up before the DE opened up. One of the first if not the first post in response to the build change thread was my complaint about the new Silent Scope and problems it would create but no one here cared anyway because DE was a joke apparently. The damage of DE and Death's Judgment are mostly fine apart from built up Malicious Backstab. Stealth is mostly fine apart from Silent Scope and Shadow Meld. Play DE without Silent Scope and Shadow Meld and tell me how it's overpowered. It does come down to pretty much one build or people would have been posting constantly before the big change as well. If you're having problems with mechanics apart from that build, ask questions, get help, overcome.

>

> Feel free to keep up on the thief forums also so the next time a proposed change is announced by the devs you can weight in before changes are made and then maybe log on to your thief to help test the changes and see what we can pick apart.

 

Or I could just have an expectation that they dont hand the best stealth, best mobility, high burst damage with zero opportunity cost and no real rotation required to burst (11111 FTW omg but dat rotation doe) and the counter to the counter (remove revealed), all to the same class. XD

 

This is pretty much a universal game design mistake. Especially in a game with any PVP mode(s).

 

The last time we saw stealth abuse on this hilarious of a level was the original Neverwinter RPG (we're talking early 2000s here, and not an MMO)

 

 

[kash.9213]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As usual, you seem consumed with how the argument is presented against you rather than the content of the argument itself... Lets try this again: @"Jugglemonkey.8741" explained in great detail why the things you are complaining about are not all part of *one mythical cheating build that somehow uses more than 3 traitlines.* What do you have to say in response to his explanation of the game facts?

> > > > >

> > > > > Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

> > > > >

> > > > > **The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down.** The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

> > > >

> > > > The thief forums has better discussions and arguments about stealth and other issues. If this thread brings some attention to those threads then that would be great. I can think of maybe two thieves who post regularly on the forums who have anything even close to the build you think we're all holding on to for some reason and they've also contributed to discussions reasonably to deal with that issue and others. No thief is defending some perma one shot build, you're willfully ignorant if you're going to continue on that note. One thing you are right about, no thief wants a "nerf bat to come down" because the thief forum knows well enough that a knee jerk reaction nerf is going to unduly funnel strengths to something even worse, or maybe you like nerfs and reactionary changes that lead to things like Malicious Backstab.

> > >

> > > We've seen quite a few people saying its fine as is actually.

> > >

> > > Also: You guys seriously need stop claiming Im talking about one specific build. That was someone elses goal post moving in attempt to regulate the discussion to only specific abilities, after challenging another poster about how the class does a specific thing and being shown how it is accomplished (but that ONE BUILD doesnt take those abilities so somehow thats irrelevant).

> > >

> > > If the nerf bat does get swung, it will hardly be knee jerk reactionary, as multiple threads on the topic have gone up since the rework happened, in multiple different sub forums. They feature the same few people copy pasting that disagreement = must not play the class and such. Constantly last wording the same few other posters will continue to draw attention to the issue. Well done.

> >

> > No one cared before the the big DE build change, people wrote the whole spec off as being weak and underperforming and the only real complaint in WvW was having to wait for Malice to build up before the DE opened up. One of the first if not the first post in response to the build change thread was my complaint about the new Silent Scope and problems it would create but no one here cared anyway because DE was a joke apparently. The damage of DE and Death's Judgment are mostly fine apart from built up Malicious Backstab. Stealth is mostly fine apart from Silent Scope and Shadow Meld. Play DE without Silent Scope and Shadow Meld and tell me how it's overpowered. It does come down to pretty much one build or people would have been posting constantly before the big change as well. If you're having problems with mechanics apart from that build, ask questions, get help, overcome.

> >

> > Feel free to keep up on the thief forums also so the next time a proposed change is announced by the devs you can weight in before changes are made and then maybe log on to your thief to help test the changes and see what we can pick apart.

>

> Or I could just have an expectation that they dont hand the best stealth, best mobility, high burst damage with zero opportunity cost and no real rotation required to burst (11111 FTW omg but dat rotation doe) and the counter to the counter (remove revealed), all to the same class. XD

>

> This is pretty much a universal game design mistake. Especially in a game with any PVP mode(s).

>

> The last time we saw stealth abuse on this hilarious of a level was the original Neverwinter RPG (we're talking early 2000s here, and not an MMO)

>

>

 

All to the same build that can take advantage of key changes to DE, not class, and it's mobility is debateable. Dagger main hand can open up with backstab and burst with auto, again, being a build and not the class and not even all dagger mh builds apply. But please feel free to go down the list of thief class builds and explain how each of them are over powered with all of those benefits combined and if you think people in this thread are misinterpreting you maybe go back and review some of the claims you're making.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him.

> > >

> > > That strawman argument doesnt apply. Its very rare that I ask for nerfs, but when something is so blown out of proportion that it definately needs nerfing, my reaction is not a negative reaction due to how others play. Its due to abusing the shinola out of the mechanic myself to the point where I can get away with shenanigans I would not be able to get away with on another class/build.

> > >

> > > You think someone's knocking on the door for me? No, I'm the one who knocks.

> >

> > It's not a straw man, you're simply refusing to listen to the answers people are giving you and are confusing elements from different builds. It's easy to show this by looking at two distinct builds for deadeye;

> >

> > 1) Full valkyrie gear running scholar runes, SA/CS/DE with D/P and rifle, standard permastealth deadeye that people complain about. This build can permastealth, and has extremely high spike out of stealth (death's judgement and malicious backstab can hit for 20-30k depending on the opponent) but it lacks sustained damage, often having to reset if the burst fails. Valk armor gives the build somewhere in the region of 20k health, slightly less if you play optimally and mix a couple berserker/marauder pieces to take advantage of critical strike's crit chance bonuses. It's not required to take trickery, since it's two burst skills (death's judgement and malicious backstab) do not consume initiative, and between SA and M7 there is plenty of ini generation in the build. It's only condi cleanse traited is shadow's embrace, which only removes damaging conditions. So, unless it sacrifices assassin's signet or binding shadows (utilities necessary for landing the high burst), the only way it can remove condis like weakness or immob are shadowstep (50s cooldown, easy to see when it's been used and is also the only stunbreak), withdraw (assuming they run that over hide in shadows, which also only removes damaging condis) or death's retreat (can only use twice in succession due to 12 ini max, and also means they are forced to use shadow meld or stolen ability to stealth). This means that using skills that inflict weakness deprives them of their guaranteed crit from stealth and forces them to use more resources in order to stealth. As mentioned, they also cannot spam death's retreat to chase or retreat while maintaining permastealth due to having 12 max ini and the skill costing 5 ini, and in most cases rely on physically walking behind the opponent for a backstab making them vulnerable to AoE. All this makes the build heavily weak to reveal, since you lock the thief out of it's sustain, stealth, it's main damage skills and also it's ability to crit, so almost all variants will carry shadow meld. This makes a combination of reval, CC and high spike damage very effective against this build when used correctly.

> >

> > Tldr: perma stealth, extreme spike damage but low sustained damage, lower chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to reveal, weakness and immob. Counters; Power shatter mirage (if fast with the spike you can just one shot a deadeye), holosmith/scrapper (lots of reveals and CC, arguably the hardest matchup for this spec), herald (also a hard match, depends largely how good the rev is), other deadeyes.

> >

> > 2) Full marauder gear with durability runes, acro/trickery/DE with S/P and rifle, skirmisher build focussing on high CC and quickness to land damage. This build cannot permastealth, although it has enough to chain together when needed through stolen items. It also relies on less highly damaging spikes than build 1 (death's judgement and pistol whip hit from 8-12k roughly), it does not generally spike from stealth but uses mobility and evades to keep itself alive, and is more focussed on controlling the opponent through boon steal and CC than one shotting them. It has to take trickery and mercy for ini management purposes, since taking be quick or be killed in DE for the quickness means no ini regen from M7, and of the two burst skills (pistol whip and death's judgement) pistol whip uses a lot of ini when considering a sustained assault. It's damaging condi cleanses are death's retreat, sword 2 and shadow step, possibly pain response if you trait for it. In general the build is much more susceptible to condis, and relies on finishing the opponent quickly instead of cleansing through their burst. The build has trickery and either mercy or roll for initiative, and due to it not relying on stealth heavily it can freely use death's retreat for mobility. The build can also use trickster for added condi cleanse, although slight of hand is almost always the better choice of trait due to how often mark can be reset (17s cooldown on mark, swindler's equilibrium and mercy give a lot of boonsteal with bountiful theft, and combined with slight of hand you have a 1500 range daze that works through stability). Don't stop from acro means this build is less susceptible to immobilise, and two stunbreaks with an autoproc evade means it can survive some CC but can still be locked down. S/P gives it hard CC, evades and a reliable gap closer, and when on this set it is dependant on stolen skills or shadow meld to access stealth.

> >

> > Tldr; some stealth but not perma, lower spike damage but better sustained damage, high chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to high condi spike and opponents that spike from extreme range. Counters; Mirage, both power and condi (when played well the mirage shouldn't really take a hit before it has chance to spike the deadeye down), holosmith/scrapper (still arguably the hardest matchup for deadeye), daredevil (well played D/P daredevils should just interrupt everything then spike, almost everything deadeye does has a cast time) ranger (core, druid and soulbeast can all be challenging), high sustain builds like druid/soulbeast and ele (they can often wear you down while sustaining all of your hits).

> >

> > Both builds do not serve the same function, and have different weaknesses. Build 1 is the one people complain about, but you are assuming that deadeyes with the mobility and evades of build 2 also have the stealth and high spike from build 1. Unless you run 4 specialisations at once, you can't get it all. Build 1 is a perfect storm of not needing ini for the high spike, which frees up a specialisation slot usually taken by trickery. Taking CS with hidden killer means you don't have to run zerk and can have 20k health while not sacrificing damage, and the levels of spike means the only defense that's needed is stealth since fights end very quickly. ANet is likely aware of the problem build 1 poses, hence why they increased the ini cost of rifle 3 from 4 to 6 ini, severely cutting rifle's sustained damage unless you take trickery. What ACTUALLY needs to happen is for stealth to be addressed, either by trying to force that trade off between critical strikes and trickery again (which is what they attempted to do with the rifle 3 ini nerf), or by altering stealth somehow. Making the SA specialisation second minor trait increase the duration of reveal as well as the duration of stealth, and making reveal applied by yourself by attacking not cleansable with shadow meld (so it only works vs reveals applied by an enemy) would mean the stealth assassin playstyle is still a thing, the high spike is still possible, but it means if the spike fails it gives adequate reaction time for someone to turn and punish the deadeye. Everybody wins.

> >

> > In short, I'm not opposed to nerfs to deadeye. I'm simply asking that people ask for nerfs to the right build for the right reasons, and don't try to nerf builds that aren't overperforming and don't rely on the things that make the permastealth build what it is.

> >

> > PS; and yes I realise I told the other guy not to bother arguing then wrote an essay, lol.

>

> It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite.

 

Well, (A) if you play the class you should know better than to make some of the claims you've made on this thread, (B) if you don't know why the perma stealth CS/SA/DE one shot build doesn't have the same high mobility as a build running trickery and ini regen utilities, you don't know the class as well as you claim (either that or you're changing the exact build we're talking about on the fly to fit the terms of your argument, which last I checked was called moving the goalposts), and © I said that you deserved to be one shot because you clearly refuse to listen to criticism, not that you ARE one shot often and salty about it, and the fact that you got this wrong only shows you didn't read my post properly and thus proves my point.

 

It's also not a strawman because you have misunderstood entirely the point of my argument, assuming I'm setting up a strawman based on the assumptions you listed above in order to disregard your argument for nerfing deadeye. So, I'll restate my position for you;

 

I WANT THE PERMASTEALTH ONESHOT DEADEYE BUILD NERFED BECAUSE IT'S MORE OBNOXIOUS THAN SHREK DOING THE HAKA AT A NUDIST BEACH. I JUST DON'T WANT THE WRONG THING NERFED FOR THE WRONG REASONS AND YOU MIXING ELEMENTS OF DIFFERENT BUILDS AS IT PLEASES YOU TO ATTEMPT TO WIN AN ARGUMENT IS NOT HELPING THE MATTER.

 

Is that clear enough for you?

 

Have a nice day :)

 

P.S; you have an office pool? How many people does it take to systematically miss the point like this? Just curious.

[aspirine.6852]

funny movie about de.

[SoV.5139]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him.

> > > >

> > > > That strawman argument doesnt apply. Its very rare that I ask for nerfs, but when something is so blown out of proportion that it definately needs nerfing, my reaction is not a negative reaction due to how others play. Its due to abusing the shinola out of the mechanic myself to the point where I can get away with shenanigans I would not be able to get away with on another class/build.

> > > >

> > > > You think someone's knocking on the door for me? No, I'm the one who knocks.

> > >

> > > It's not a straw man, you're simply refusing to listen to the answers people are giving you and are confusing elements from different builds. It's easy to show this by looking at two distinct builds for deadeye;

> > >

> > > 1) Full valkyrie gear running scholar runes, SA/CS/DE with D/P and rifle, standard permastealth deadeye that people complain about. This build can permastealth, and has extremely high spike out of stealth (death's judgement and malicious backstab can hit for 20-30k depending on the opponent) but it lacks sustained damage, often having to reset if the burst fails. Valk armor gives the build somewhere in the region of 20k health, slightly less if you play optimally and mix a couple berserker/marauder pieces to take advantage of critical strike's crit chance bonuses. It's not required to take trickery, since it's two burst skills (death's judgement and malicious backstab) do not consume initiative, and between SA and M7 there is plenty of ini generation in the build. It's only condi cleanse traited is shadow's embrace, which only removes damaging conditions. So, unless it sacrifices assassin's signet or binding shadows (utilities necessary for landing the high burst), the only way it can remove condis like weakness or immob are shadowstep (50s cooldown, easy to see when it's been used and is also the only stunbreak), withdraw (assuming they run that over hide in shadows, which also only removes damaging condis) or death's retreat (can only use twice in succession due to 12 ini max, and also means they are forced to use shadow meld or stolen ability to stealth). This means that using skills that inflict weakness deprives them of their guaranteed crit from stealth and forces them to use more resources in order to stealth. As mentioned, they also cannot spam death's retreat to chase or retreat while maintaining permastealth due to having 12 max ini and the skill costing 5 ini, and in most cases rely on physically walking behind the opponent for a backstab making them vulnerable to AoE. All this makes the build heavily weak to reveal, since you lock the thief out of it's sustain, stealth, it's main damage skills and also it's ability to crit, so almost all variants will carry shadow meld. This makes a combination of reval, CC and high spike damage very effective against this build when used correctly.

> > >

> > > Tldr: perma stealth, extreme spike damage but low sustained damage, lower chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to reveal, weakness and immob. Counters; Power shatter mirage (if fast with the spike you can just one shot a deadeye), holosmith/scrapper (lots of reveals and CC, arguably the hardest matchup for this spec), herald (also a hard match, depends largely how good the rev is), other deadeyes.

> > >

> > > 2) Full marauder gear with durability runes, acro/trickery/DE with S/P and rifle, skirmisher build focussing on high CC and quickness to land damage. This build cannot permastealth, although it has enough to chain together when needed through stolen items. It also relies on less highly damaging spikes than build 1 (death's judgement and pistol whip hit from 8-12k roughly), it does not generally spike from stealth but uses mobility and evades to keep itself alive, and is more focussed on controlling the opponent through boon steal and CC than one shotting them. It has to take trickery and mercy for ini management purposes, since taking be quick or be killed in DE for the quickness means no ini regen from M7, and of the two burst skills (pistol whip and death's judgement) pistol whip uses a lot of ini when considering a sustained assault. It's damaging condi cleanses are death's retreat, sword 2 and shadow step, possibly pain response if you trait for it. In general the build is much more susceptible to condis, and relies on finishing the opponent quickly instead of cleansing through their burst. The build has trickery and either mercy or roll for initiative, and due to it not relying on stealth heavily it can freely use death's retreat for mobility. The build can also use trickster for added condi cleanse, although slight of hand is almost always the better choice of trait due to how often mark can be reset (17s cooldown on mark, swindler's equilibrium and mercy give a lot of boonsteal with bountiful theft, and combined with slight of hand you have a 1500 range daze that works through stability). Don't stop from acro means this build is less susceptible to immobilise, and two stunbreaks with an autoproc evade means it can survive some CC but can still be locked down. S/P gives it hard CC, evades and a reliable gap closer, and when on this set it is dependant on stolen skills or shadow meld to access stealth.

> > >

> > > Tldr; some stealth but not perma, lower spike damage but better sustained damage, high chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to high condi spike and opponents that spike from extreme range. Counters; Mirage, both power and condi (when played well the mirage shouldn't really take a hit before it has chance to spike the deadeye down), holosmith/scrapper (still arguably the hardest matchup for deadeye), daredevil (well played D/P daredevils should just interrupt everything then spike, almost everything deadeye does has a cast time) ranger (core, druid and soulbeast can all be challenging), high sustain builds like druid/soulbeast and ele (they can often wear you down while sustaining all of your hits).

> > >

> > > Both builds do not serve the same function, and have different weaknesses. Build 1 is the one people complain about, but you are assuming that deadeyes with the mobility and evades of build 2 also have the stealth and high spike from build 1. Unless you run 4 specialisations at once, you can't get it all. Build 1 is a perfect storm of not needing ini for the high spike, which frees up a specialisation slot usually taken by trickery. Taking CS with hidden killer means you don't have to run zerk and can have 20k health while not sacrificing damage, and the levels of spike means the only defense that's needed is stealth since fights end very quickly. ANet is likely aware of the problem build 1 poses, hence why they increased the ini cost of rifle 3 from 4 to 6 ini, severely cutting rifle's sustained damage unless you take trickery. What ACTUALLY needs to happen is for stealth to be addressed, either by trying to force that trade off between critical strikes and trickery again (which is what they attempted to do with the rifle 3 ini nerf), or by altering stealth somehow. Making the SA specialisation second minor trait increase the duration of reveal as well as the duration of stealth, and making reveal applied by yourself by attacking not cleansable with shadow meld (so it only works vs reveals applied by an enemy) would mean the stealth assassin playstyle is still a thing, the high spike is still possible, but it means if the spike fails it gives adequate reaction time for someone to turn and punish the deadeye. Everybody wins.

> > >

> > > In short, I'm not opposed to nerfs to deadeye. I'm simply asking that people ask for nerfs to the right build for the right reasons, and don't try to nerf builds that aren't overperforming and don't rely on the things that make the permastealth build what it is.

> > >

> > > PS; and yes I realise I told the other guy not to bother arguing then wrote an essay, lol.

> >

> > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite.

>

> Well, (A) if you play the class you should know better than to make some of the claims you've made on this thread, (B) if you don't know why the perma stealth CS/SA/DE one shot build doesn't have the same high mobility as a build running trickery and ini regen utilities, you don't know the class as well as you claim (either that or you're changing the exact build we're talking about on the fly to fit the terms of your argument, which last I checked was called moving the goalposts), and © I said that you deserved to be one shot because you clearly refuse to listen to criticism, not that you ARE one shot often and salty about it, and the fact that you got this wrong only shows you didn't read my post properly and thus proves my point.

>

> It's also not a strawman because you have misunderstood entirely the point of my argument, assuming I'm setting up a strawman based on the assumptions you listed above in order to disregard your argument for nerfing deadeye. So, I'll restate my position for you;

>

> I WANT THE PERMASTEALTH ONESHOT DEADEYE BUILD NERFED BECAUSE IT'S MORE OBNOXIOUS THAN SHREK DOING THE HAKA AT A NUDIST BEACH. I JUST DON'T WANT THE WRONG THING NERFED FOR THE WRONG REASONS AND YOU MIXING ELEMENTS OF DIFFERENT BUILDS AS IT PLEASES YOU TO ATTEMPT TO WIN AN ARGUMENT IS NOT HELPING THE MATTER.

>

> Is that clear enough for you?

>

> Have a nice day :)

>

> P.S; you have an office pool? How many people does it take to systematically miss the point like this? Just curious.

 

A is flat out incorrect. Folks had no answer for the claims made other than to attempt to restrict the discussion to not being able to make the claim.

B is another presumption on your part and is ad-hom. Instead of all the "you dont know" stuff, just address what is quoted.

C is the strawman (youre simply backpedaling and mincing words here at this point). Im not the one being one shot. Im the one abusing the class one shotting people right in front of their zergs and getting away scott free with it. (keep in mind objective readers, my claim is not that high burst is bad, its the lack of counterplay opportunity if they mess up the burst, due to several get-out-of-counterplay-free-cards the class has - anyone who is objective and gets past the "disagreement = obviously dont play the class ad hom nonsense will see this has been the claim the entire time).

[SoV.5139]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > > > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite. Ive been abusing the way stealth works on the deadeye rework, baiting entire zergs into supply traps, downing players on siege in the middle of their friends and being able to get a stomp before they get raised etc....for over six weeks now. Been playing MMOs since mid 90s and PVP games since earlier than that, and deadeye is easily a top 5 easy button - possibly top 3. Its the continual implementation of, and blind defense of this kind of stuff that causes the eSports community to stop taking this game seriously, when there used to be a presence here.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As usual, you seem consumed with how the argument is presented against you rather than the content of the argument itself... Lets try this again: @"Jugglemonkey.8741" explained in great detail why the things you are complaining about are not all part of *one mythical cheating build that somehow uses more than 3 traitlines.* What do you have to say in response to his explanation of the game facts?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Only no "one mythical cheating build" was ever claimed by me. All this "the one build" doesnt take this therefore its null and void - was you, moving the goal posts in attempt to disallow all core thief abilities that can be used being discussed, after challenging for an ability spam which can move a specific distance and having it pointed out to you. If Im wrong, feel free to point out where I specifically claimed one mythical cheating build. Speaking of talking past game facts.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **The overbloating of these discussion threads continues and will accomplish exactly what you dont want it to - cause the nerf bat to come down.** The chronic last-wording continues to bump discussions to the top which should have long since faded away and out of immediate view. As before, when its nerfed, Ill be back to thank you for the support. XD

> > > > >

> > > > > The thief forums has better discussions and arguments about stealth and other issues. If this thread brings some attention to those threads then that would be great. I can think of maybe two thieves who post regularly on the forums who have anything even close to the build you think we're all holding on to for some reason and they've also contributed to discussions reasonably to deal with that issue and others. No thief is defending some perma one shot build, you're willfully ignorant if you're going to continue on that note. One thing you are right about, no thief wants a "nerf bat to come down" because the thief forum knows well enough that a knee jerk reaction nerf is going to unduly funnel strengths to something even worse, or maybe you like nerfs and reactionary changes that lead to things like Malicious Backstab.

> > > >

> > > > We've seen quite a few people saying its fine as is actually.

> > > >

> > > > Also: You guys seriously need stop claiming Im talking about one specific build. That was someone elses goal post moving in attempt to regulate the discussion to only specific abilities, after challenging another poster about how the class does a specific thing and being shown how it is accomplished (but that ONE BUILD doesnt take those abilities so somehow thats irrelevant).

> > > >

> > > > If the nerf bat does get swung, it will hardly be knee jerk reactionary, as multiple threads on the topic have gone up since the rework happened, in multiple different sub forums. They feature the same few people copy pasting that disagreement = must not play the class and such. Constantly last wording the same few other posters will continue to draw attention to the issue. Well done.

> > >

> > > No one cared before the the big DE build change, people wrote the whole spec off as being weak and underperforming and the only real complaint in WvW was having to wait for Malice to build up before the DE opened up. One of the first if not the first post in response to the build change thread was my complaint about the new Silent Scope and problems it would create but no one here cared anyway because DE was a joke apparently. The damage of DE and Death's Judgment are mostly fine apart from built up Malicious Backstab. Stealth is mostly fine apart from Silent Scope and Shadow Meld. Play DE without Silent Scope and Shadow Meld and tell me how it's overpowered. It does come down to pretty much one build or people would have been posting constantly before the big change as well. If you're having problems with mechanics apart from that build, ask questions, get help, overcome.

> > >

> > > Feel free to keep up on the thief forums also so the next time a proposed change is announced by the devs you can weight in before changes are made and then maybe log on to your thief to help test the changes and see what we can pick apart.

> >

> > Or I could just have an expectation that they dont hand the best stealth, best mobility, high burst damage with zero opportunity cost and no real rotation required to burst (11111 FTW omg but dat rotation doe) and the counter to the counter (remove revealed), all to the same class. XD

> >

> > This is pretty much a universal game design mistake. Especially in a game with any PVP mode(s).

> >

> > The last time we saw stealth abuse on this hilarious of a level was the original Neverwinter RPG (we're talking early 2000s here, and not an MMO)

> >

> >

>

> All to the same build that can take advantage of key changes to DE, not class, and it's mobility is debateable. Dagger main hand can open up with backstab and burst with auto, again, being a build and not the class and not even all dagger mh builds apply. But please feel free to go down the list of thief class builds and explain how each of them are over powered with all of those benefits combined and if you think people in this thread are misinterpreting you maybe go back and review some of the claims you're making.

 

They arent misinterpreting me, they are flat out talking past stuff they have zero answer for by restricting the discussion to "that ability doesnt count because its not in the only build I know that does this" - all that after challenging to show how something is done without making the distinction that only **some** abilities are included until the need to move the goal posts after they are taken to school after the challenge.

 

Im not into chronic last wording to this degree, so like before, Ill be back post nerf to thank yall for the support, heh. XD

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him.

> > > > >

> > > > > That strawman argument doesnt apply. Its very rare that I ask for nerfs, but when something is so blown out of proportion that it definately needs nerfing, my reaction is not a negative reaction due to how others play. Its due to abusing the shinola out of the mechanic myself to the point where I can get away with shenanigans I would not be able to get away with on another class/build.

> > > > >

> > > > > You think someone's knocking on the door for me? No, I'm the one who knocks.

> > > >

> > > > It's not a straw man, you're simply refusing to listen to the answers people are giving you and are confusing elements from different builds. It's easy to show this by looking at two distinct builds for deadeye;

> > > >

> > > > 1) Full valkyrie gear running scholar runes, SA/CS/DE with D/P and rifle, standard permastealth deadeye that people complain about. This build can permastealth, and has extremely high spike out of stealth (death's judgement and malicious backstab can hit for 20-30k depending on the opponent) but it lacks sustained damage, often having to reset if the burst fails. Valk armor gives the build somewhere in the region of 20k health, slightly less if you play optimally and mix a couple berserker/marauder pieces to take advantage of critical strike's crit chance bonuses. It's not required to take trickery, since it's two burst skills (death's judgement and malicious backstab) do not consume initiative, and between SA and M7 there is plenty of ini generation in the build. It's only condi cleanse traited is shadow's embrace, which only removes damaging conditions. So, unless it sacrifices assassin's signet or binding shadows (utilities necessary for landing the high burst), the only way it can remove condis like weakness or immob are shadowstep (50s cooldown, easy to see when it's been used and is also the only stunbreak), withdraw (assuming they run that over hide in shadows, which also only removes damaging condis) or death's retreat (can only use twice in succession due to 12 ini max, and also means they are forced to use shadow meld or stolen ability to stealth). This means that using skills that inflict weakness deprives them of their guaranteed crit from stealth and forces them to use more resources in order to stealth. As mentioned, they also cannot spam death's retreat to chase or retreat while maintaining permastealth due to having 12 max ini and the skill costing 5 ini, and in most cases rely on physically walking behind the opponent for a backstab making them vulnerable to AoE. All this makes the build heavily weak to reveal, since you lock the thief out of it's sustain, stealth, it's main damage skills and also it's ability to crit, so almost all variants will carry shadow meld. This makes a combination of reval, CC and high spike damage very effective against this build when used correctly.

> > > >

> > > > Tldr: perma stealth, extreme spike damage but low sustained damage, lower chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to reveal, weakness and immob. Counters; Power shatter mirage (if fast with the spike you can just one shot a deadeye), holosmith/scrapper (lots of reveals and CC, arguably the hardest matchup for this spec), herald (also a hard match, depends largely how good the rev is), other deadeyes.

> > > >

> > > > 2) Full marauder gear with durability runes, acro/trickery/DE with S/P and rifle, skirmisher build focussing on high CC and quickness to land damage. This build cannot permastealth, although it has enough to chain together when needed through stolen items. It also relies on less highly damaging spikes than build 1 (death's judgement and pistol whip hit from 8-12k roughly), it does not generally spike from stealth but uses mobility and evades to keep itself alive, and is more focussed on controlling the opponent through boon steal and CC than one shotting them. It has to take trickery and mercy for ini management purposes, since taking be quick or be killed in DE for the quickness means no ini regen from M7, and of the two burst skills (pistol whip and death's judgement) pistol whip uses a lot of ini when considering a sustained assault. It's damaging condi cleanses are death's retreat, sword 2 and shadow step, possibly pain response if you trait for it. In general the build is much more susceptible to condis, and relies on finishing the opponent quickly instead of cleansing through their burst. The build has trickery and either mercy or roll for initiative, and due to it not relying on stealth heavily it can freely use death's retreat for mobility. The build can also use trickster for added condi cleanse, although slight of hand is almost always the better choice of trait due to how often mark can be reset (17s cooldown on mark, swindler's equilibrium and mercy give a lot of boonsteal with bountiful theft, and combined with slight of hand you have a 1500 range daze that works through stability). Don't stop from acro means this build is less susceptible to immobilise, and two stunbreaks with an autoproc evade means it can survive some CC but can still be locked down. S/P gives it hard CC, evades and a reliable gap closer, and when on this set it is dependant on stolen skills or shadow meld to access stealth.

> > > >

> > > > Tldr; some stealth but not perma, lower spike damage but better sustained damage, high chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to high condi spike and opponents that spike from extreme range. Counters; Mirage, both power and condi (when played well the mirage shouldn't really take a hit before it has chance to spike the deadeye down), holosmith/scrapper (still arguably the hardest matchup for deadeye), daredevil (well played D/P daredevils should just interrupt everything then spike, almost everything deadeye does has a cast time) ranger (core, druid and soulbeast can all be challenging), high sustain builds like druid/soulbeast and ele (they can often wear you down while sustaining all of your hits).

> > > >

> > > > Both builds do not serve the same function, and have different weaknesses. Build 1 is the one people complain about, but you are assuming that deadeyes with the mobility and evades of build 2 also have the stealth and high spike from build 1. Unless you run 4 specialisations at once, you can't get it all. Build 1 is a perfect storm of not needing ini for the high spike, which frees up a specialisation slot usually taken by trickery. Taking CS with hidden killer means you don't have to run zerk and can have 20k health while not sacrificing damage, and the levels of spike means the only defense that's needed is stealth since fights end very quickly. ANet is likely aware of the problem build 1 poses, hence why they increased the ini cost of rifle 3 from 4 to 6 ini, severely cutting rifle's sustained damage unless you take trickery. What ACTUALLY needs to happen is for stealth to be addressed, either by trying to force that trade off between critical strikes and trickery again (which is what they attempted to do with the rifle 3 ini nerf), or by altering stealth somehow. Making the SA specialisation second minor trait increase the duration of reveal as well as the duration of stealth, and making reveal applied by yourself by attacking not cleansable with shadow meld (so it only works vs reveals applied by an enemy) would mean the stealth assassin playstyle is still a thing, the high spike is still possible, but it means if the spike fails it gives adequate reaction time for someone to turn and punish the deadeye. Everybody wins.

> > > >

> > > > In short, I'm not opposed to nerfs to deadeye. I'm simply asking that people ask for nerfs to the right build for the right reasons, and don't try to nerf builds that aren't overperforming and don't rely on the things that make the permastealth build what it is.

> > > >

> > > > PS; and yes I realise I told the other guy not to bother arguing then wrote an essay, lol.

> > >

> > > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite.

> >

> > Well, (A) if you play the class you should know better than to make some of the claims you've made on this thread, (B) if you don't know why the perma stealth CS/SA/DE one shot build doesn't have the same high mobility as a build running trickery and ini regen utilities, you don't know the class as well as you claim (either that or you're changing the exact build we're talking about on the fly to fit the terms of your argument, which last I checked was called moving the goalposts), and © I said that you deserved to be one shot because you clearly refuse to listen to criticism, not that you ARE one shot often and salty about it, and the fact that you got this wrong only shows you didn't read my post properly and thus proves my point.

> >

> > It's also not a strawman because you have misunderstood entirely the point of my argument, assuming I'm setting up a strawman based on the assumptions you listed above in order to disregard your argument for nerfing deadeye. So, I'll restate my position for you;

> >

> > I WANT THE PERMASTEALTH ONESHOT DEADEYE BUILD NERFED BECAUSE IT'S MORE OBNOXIOUS THAN SHREK DOING THE HAKA AT A NUDIST BEACH. I JUST DON'T WANT THE WRONG THING NERFED FOR THE WRONG REASONS AND YOU MIXING ELEMENTS OF DIFFERENT BUILDS AS IT PLEASES YOU TO ATTEMPT TO WIN AN ARGUMENT IS NOT HELPING THE MATTER.

> >

> > Is that clear enough for you?

> >

> > Have a nice day :)

> >

> > P.S; you have an office pool? How many people does it take to systematically miss the point like this? Just curious.

>

> A is flat out incorrect. Folks had no answer for the claims made other than to attempt to restrict the discussion to not being able to make the claim.

> B is another presumption on your part and is ad-hom. Instead of all the "you dont know" stuff, just address what is quoted.

> C is the strawman (youre simply backpedaling and mincing words here at this point). Im not the one being one shot. Im the one abusing the class one shotting people right in front of their zergs and getting away scott free with it. (keep in mind objective readers, my claim is not that high burst is bad, its the lack of counterplay opportunity if they mess up the burst, due to several get-out-of-counterplay-free-cards the class has - anyone who is objective and gets past the "disagreement = obviously dont play the class ad hom nonsense will see this has been the claim the entire time).

 

one thing i dont really understand is at what point do you consider the deadeye to have 'messed up'?

i think it is pretty important to know that to understand what you want the deadeye to be able to and what not.

opponent dodging my burst is not something i would consider messed up, i mean they dodge my burst, i dodge theirs, fight continues.

[SoV.5139]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > > > > > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That strawman argument doesnt apply. Its very rare that I ask for nerfs, but when something is so blown out of proportion that it definately needs nerfing, my reaction is not a negative reaction due to how others play. Its due to abusing the shinola out of the mechanic myself to the point where I can get away with shenanigans I would not be able to get away with on another class/build.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You think someone's knocking on the door for me? No, I'm the one who knocks.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's not a straw man, you're simply refusing to listen to the answers people are giving you and are confusing elements from different builds. It's easy to show this by looking at two distinct builds for deadeye;

> > > > >

> > > > > 1) Full valkyrie gear running scholar runes, SA/CS/DE with D/P and rifle, standard permastealth deadeye that people complain about. This build can permastealth, and has extremely high spike out of stealth (death's judgement and malicious backstab can hit for 20-30k depending on the opponent) but it lacks sustained damage, often having to reset if the burst fails. Valk armor gives the build somewhere in the region of 20k health, slightly less if you play optimally and mix a couple berserker/marauder pieces to take advantage of critical strike's crit chance bonuses. It's not required to take trickery, since it's two burst skills (death's judgement and malicious backstab) do not consume initiative, and between SA and M7 there is plenty of ini generation in the build. It's only condi cleanse traited is shadow's embrace, which only removes damaging conditions. So, unless it sacrifices assassin's signet or binding shadows (utilities necessary for landing the high burst), the only way it can remove condis like weakness or immob are shadowstep (50s cooldown, easy to see when it's been used and is also the only stunbreak), withdraw (assuming they run that over hide in shadows, which also only removes damaging condis) or death's retreat (can only use twice in succession due to 12 ini max, and also means they are forced to use shadow meld or stolen ability to stealth). This means that using skills that inflict weakness deprives them of their guaranteed crit from stealth and forces them to use more resources in order to stealth. As mentioned, they also cannot spam death's retreat to chase or retreat while maintaining permastealth due to having 12 max ini and the skill costing 5 ini, and in most cases rely on physically walking behind the opponent for a backstab making them vulnerable to AoE. All this makes the build heavily weak to reveal, since you lock the thief out of it's sustain, stealth, it's main damage skills and also it's ability to crit, so almost all variants will carry shadow meld. This makes a combination of reval, CC and high spike damage very effective against this build when used correctly.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tldr: perma stealth, extreme spike damage but low sustained damage, lower chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to reveal, weakness and immob. Counters; Power shatter mirage (if fast with the spike you can just one shot a deadeye), holosmith/scrapper (lots of reveals and CC, arguably the hardest matchup for this spec), herald (also a hard match, depends largely how good the rev is), other deadeyes.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2) Full marauder gear with durability runes, acro/trickery/DE with S/P and rifle, skirmisher build focussing on high CC and quickness to land damage. This build cannot permastealth, although it has enough to chain together when needed through stolen items. It also relies on less highly damaging spikes than build 1 (death's judgement and pistol whip hit from 8-12k roughly), it does not generally spike from stealth but uses mobility and evades to keep itself alive, and is more focussed on controlling the opponent through boon steal and CC than one shotting them. It has to take trickery and mercy for ini management purposes, since taking be quick or be killed in DE for the quickness means no ini regen from M7, and of the two burst skills (pistol whip and death's judgement) pistol whip uses a lot of ini when considering a sustained assault. It's damaging condi cleanses are death's retreat, sword 2 and shadow step, possibly pain response if you trait for it. In general the build is much more susceptible to condis, and relies on finishing the opponent quickly instead of cleansing through their burst. The build has trickery and either mercy or roll for initiative, and due to it not relying on stealth heavily it can freely use death's retreat for mobility. The build can also use trickster for added condi cleanse, although slight of hand is almost always the better choice of trait due to how often mark can be reset (17s cooldown on mark, swindler's equilibrium and mercy give a lot of boonsteal with bountiful theft, and combined with slight of hand you have a 1500 range daze that works through stability). Don't stop from acro means this build is less susceptible to immobilise, and two stunbreaks with an autoproc evade means it can survive some CC but can still be locked down. S/P gives it hard CC, evades and a reliable gap closer, and when on this set it is dependant on stolen skills or shadow meld to access stealth.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tldr; some stealth but not perma, lower spike damage but better sustained damage, high chase/retreat potential, vulnerable to high condi spike and opponents that spike from extreme range. Counters; Mirage, both power and condi (when played well the mirage shouldn't really take a hit before it has chance to spike the deadeye down), holosmith/scrapper (still arguably the hardest matchup for deadeye), daredevil (well played D/P daredevils should just interrupt everything then spike, almost everything deadeye does has a cast time) ranger (core, druid and soulbeast can all be challenging), high sustain builds like druid/soulbeast and ele (they can often wear you down while sustaining all of your hits).

> > > > >

> > > > > Both builds do not serve the same function, and have different weaknesses. Build 1 is the one people complain about, but you are assuming that deadeyes with the mobility and evades of build 2 also have the stealth and high spike from build 1. Unless you run 4 specialisations at once, you can't get it all. Build 1 is a perfect storm of not needing ini for the high spike, which frees up a specialisation slot usually taken by trickery. Taking CS with hidden killer means you don't have to run zerk and can have 20k health while not sacrificing damage, and the levels of spike means the only defense that's needed is stealth since fights end very quickly. ANet is likely aware of the problem build 1 poses, hence why they increased the ini cost of rifle 3 from 4 to 6 ini, severely cutting rifle's sustained damage unless you take trickery. What ACTUALLY needs to happen is for stealth to be addressed, either by trying to force that trade off between critical strikes and trickery again (which is what they attempted to do with the rifle 3 ini nerf), or by altering stealth somehow. Making the SA specialisation second minor trait increase the duration of reveal as well as the duration of stealth, and making reveal applied by yourself by attacking not cleansable with shadow meld (so it only works vs reveals applied by an enemy) would mean the stealth assassin playstyle is still a thing, the high spike is still possible, but it means if the spike fails it gives adequate reaction time for someone to turn and punish the deadeye. Everybody wins.

> > > > >

> > > > > In short, I'm not opposed to nerfs to deadeye. I'm simply asking that people ask for nerfs to the right build for the right reasons, and don't try to nerf builds that aren't overperforming and don't rely on the things that make the permastealth build what it is.

> > > > >

> > > > > PS; and yes I realise I told the other guy not to bother arguing then wrote an essay, lol.

> > > >

> > > > It is a strawman as it incorrectly assumed the argument was coming from someone who (A) doesnt play the class and (B) claiming disagreement = dont know the builds, and © is one shot alot and came to the forums to QQ about it. It is quite the opposite.

> > >

> > > Well, (A) if you play the class you should know better than to make some of the claims you've made on this thread, (B) if you don't know why the perma stealth CS/SA/DE one shot build doesn't have the same high mobility as a build running trickery and ini regen utilities, you don't know the class as well as you claim (either that or you're changing the exact build we're talking about on the fly to fit the terms of your argument, which last I checked was called moving the goalposts), and © I said that you deserved to be one shot because you clearly refuse to listen to criticism, not that you ARE one shot often and salty about it, and the fact that you got this wrong only shows you didn't read my post properly and thus proves my point.

> > >

> > > It's also not a strawman because you have misunderstood entirely the point of my argument, assuming I'm setting up a strawman based on the assumptions you listed above in order to disregard your argument for nerfing deadeye. So, I'll restate my position for you;

> > >

> > > I WANT THE PERMASTEALTH ONESHOT DEADEYE BUILD NERFED BECAUSE IT'S MORE OBNOXIOUS THAN SHREK DOING THE HAKA AT A NUDIST BEACH. I JUST DON'T WANT THE WRONG THING NERFED FOR THE WRONG REASONS AND YOU MIXING ELEMENTS OF DIFFERENT BUILDS AS IT PLEASES YOU TO ATTEMPT TO WIN AN ARGUMENT IS NOT HELPING THE MATTER.

> > >

> > > Is that clear enough for you?

> > >

> > > Have a nice day :)

> > >

> > > P.S; you have an office pool? How many people does it take to systematically miss the point like this? Just curious.

> >

> > A is flat out incorrect. Folks had no answer for the claims made other than to attempt to restrict the discussion to not being able to make the claim.

> > B is another presumption on your part and is ad-hom. Instead of all the "you dont know" stuff, just address what is quoted.

> > C is the strawman (youre simply backpedaling and mincing words here at this point). Im not the one being one shot. Im the one abusing the class one shotting people right in front of their zergs and getting away scott free with it. (keep in mind objective readers, my claim is not that high burst is bad, its the lack of counterplay opportunity if they mess up the burst, due to several get-out-of-counterplay-free-cards the class has - anyone who is objective and gets past the "disagreement = obviously dont play the class ad hom nonsense will see this has been the claim the entire time).

>

> one thing i dont really understand is at what point do you consider the deadeye to have 'messed up'?

> i think it is pretty important to know that to understand what you want the deadeye to be able to and what not.

> opponent dodging my burst is not something i would consider messed up, i mean they dodge my burst, i dodge theirs, fight continues.

 

Right now: When their burst doesnt kill, being able to remove any counter to stealth and drop right back into stealth removes counterplay from the situation. Furthermore, being able to stay in stealth for the full duration of their cooldown resets if needed, means any attempt at counterplay is always reactive and always cedes the first move to the DE. Ive been doing this in front of full zergs after sniping a player, and it pretty much can happen with impunity.

 

What it should be: Disallow reveal removal. Remove dodge applying stealth , and stealth stacking. Now messing up a burst means having to deal with counterplay, and having to now outplay the player who was attacked without relying on the crutch of always having full cooldown set up, as well as the crutch of always having the drop on the opponent. While other classes have stealth, there are zero other classes that can burst, fail to kill on burst, then not have to deal with counterplay afterward. Sure, some can run away while in stealth, but they cant hang around in range waiting for cooldowns/init to fill back up etc in order to keep trying and failing until they eventually succeed.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> [...] funny movie about de.

Could be me 2 weeks ago.

 

- logged in with my thief I did not touch for almost a year which was still skilled as staff daredevil (used to be a good roaming build in 2016)

- reskilled to rifle+d/p deadeye (did even keep the full marauder stats because I was too lazy to tryhard - and ended up in "moderate" 10 to 15k DJs)

- facerolled people in WvW

 

just disgusting, lame and boring ... you can't mess up on that spec. It's impossible. It's so easy and forgiving that it should not be capable of killing anything.

 

[aleron.1438]

As a full time DE roamer, I don't have a single issue with those CS SA 1MBS playin DEs out there.

 

They are supremely squishy, they don't have follow up juice after they fail their one shot attempts. No ini no endurance left, they fold so fast.

 

If you actually want to do something about it instead of whining. Check your combat log and start adding the factors that allows them to one shot out of the blue before your reflects can kick in: sigil of air, sigil of fire if not force, malicious backstab and most likely also the first chain of dagger auto auto attack if ping isn't super low. Now ajdust your build hp/toughness runes to allow you to withstand that opening so you can then react dodge/evade/blink and do your counter strike.

 

I find that 1MBS playstyle far too inefficient to waste my time with it. Too much setting up, and you can only go up to select targets of opportunity and you have the downtime of waiting for assassin signet to be lethal again. Not enough initiative, endurance, mobility. It's a bit more effective than the previous old perma stalking passively builing up malice DJ; less waiting and no tells this time.

 

It's a build for snowflake creeps.

 

Personally I just want:

- my beloved cursed bullets back on #1 stealthed auto

- put DJ attached to F2 stolen skill when at 5+ malice threshold