deadeye needs nerf.

[Shadowcat.2680]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> The single biggest issue is stealth stacking, nothing more and while I do not think the fix "remove stealth on dodge" as malicious backstab users do not stealth in this manner , a slight shave to the seconds in stealth one could gain via stacking multiple stealths in a row was all that was needed.

 

On deadeye, I'll use the rifle dodge stealth before swapping to dagger if there's a target nearby that I don't want aware of my presence before the m. backstab lands. Costs me both my dodges, but shadowstep will take me free and clear if I need an escape, and a sigil of energy on rifle guarantees I can re-stealth at any time since I did the weapon swap out of combat.

[Turk.5460]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> The single biggest issue is stealth stacking, nothing more and while I do not think the fix "remove stealth on dodge" as malicious backstab users do not stealth in this manner , a slight shave to the seconds in stealth one could gain via stacking multiple stealths in a row was all that was needed.

 

What? Stealth on dodge is *exactly* how malicious backstab users gain stealth. Smoke fields and heartseeker are only supplementary in stealth stacking. And if the victim is still standing after the initial burst and starts retaliating, the DE response is swap to Rifle and dodge back into stealth, not take the time to use smoke fields and leap finishers...

[Traveller.7496]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Traveller.7496" said:

> > I've started to Alt+F4 out rather than give these guys the satisfaction to stomp.

>

> Oooooh...bad move. Seeing an alt-f4 is *FAR* more satisfying than a stomp.

 

Another option I've taken lately has been not playing WvW at all due to some ridiculous roamer builds (and, hate to admit, better players than me)

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > The single biggest issue is stealth stacking, nothing more and while I do not think the fix "remove stealth on dodge" as malicious backstab users do not stealth in this manner , a slight shave to the seconds in stealth one could gain via stacking multiple stealths in a row was all that was needed.

>

> What? Stealth on dodge is *exactly* how malicious backstab users gain stealth. Smoke fields and heartseeker are only supplementary in stealth stacking. And if the victim is still standing after the initial burst and starts retaliating, the DE response is swap to Rifle and dodge back into stealth, not take the time to use smoke fields and leap finishers...

 

Interesting. While you might play DE that way, I find when I an the d/p set and have Rifle off hand I tend to stay d/p and generate my stealth via the leaps in the field, Smeld , steal stealth and the like rather then swap over to Rifle. I find when i want to get a malicious off I ould rather not wait 10 seconds for that ICD to clear up as that gives the enemy too much time to recover. I tend to go Rifle and stick there when i fighting specific classes where I do not want to get up close for the Malicious.

 

Now last night I went into our home BL desert using my warrior as the population was low and I really wanted to test out the effectiveness of using stand your ground/roars on DE's as it more likley I encounter 1v1. I met 5 Thievs through the night. One was daredevil , one was core and the other 3 De's. Of those three De's one was Rifle and he just stuck to rifle. The other two were d/p and I did not even see what they used as the other set, these both tending to stick to the D/p. Now I sm sure there others that will switch off to Rifle just for the stealth but from my experience they not a majority.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Traveller.7496" said:

> > I've started to Alt+F4 out rather than give these guys the satisfaction to stomp.

>

> Oooooh...bad move. Seeing an alt-f4 is *FAR* more satisfying than a stomp.

 

I know right? What was he thinking lol

[Noha.3749]

I Dont see the reason to keep this thread alive.

Riflecamping deadeyes got nerfed.

 

MOST professions in WvW got some form of passive lifesaver trait (Endure pain etc. etc. etc. ) So once the backstab (dagger deadeye) lands and DOESNT kill the target they are most likely dead.

 

Everyone wants to 1shot, but everyone hates getting 1shot. Almost every profession out there got traits that ensures they cant get 1shot but some replaces it for some minor damage increase and later cries about getting 1shot.

 

Ill spell it out for you:

Learn to either build accordingly, or play accordingly.

 

If you got, say, 16k health and no passive defense or any toughness/additional health you will die when jumped on.

[Traveller.7496]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> I know right? What was he thinking lol

 

I know. It's a bad habit. I've done it a few times when the frustration meter overheats and I feel I've been unfairly buttkittened enough times. I'm trying to learn to be more zen.

 

> @"Noha.3749" said:

> Everyone wants to 1shot, but everyone hates getting 1shot. Almost every profession out there got traits that ensures they cant get 1shot but some replaces it for some minor damage increase and later cries about getting 1shot.

 

I don't want to 1shot. I want a good, fair fight where the other party doesn't constantly run away or reset the fight when in a disadvantage. Even fighting damn vault staff thieves is more fun (albeit not much), they at least stick around, you just can't hit them for kitten. I have excellent tools to disengage as a spellbreaker but I rarely bother (unless I can divert a zerg or something). You fight, you die, you respawn. Running away endlessly is not my idea of a fun fight.

 

 

[Noha.3749]

> @"Traveller.7496" said:

>

> > @"Noha.3749" said:

> > Everyone wants to 1shot, but everyone hates getting 1shot. Almost every profession out there got traits that ensures they cant get 1shot but some replaces it for some minor damage increase and later cries about getting 1shot.

>

> I don't want to 1shot. I want a good, fair fight where the other party doesn't constantly run away or reset the fight when in a disadvantage. Even fighting kitten vault staff thieves is more fun (albeit not much), they at least stick around, you just can't hit them for kitten. I have excellent tools to disengage as a spellbreaker but I rarely bother (unless I can divert a zerg or something). You fight, you die, you respawn. Running away endlessly is not my idea of a fun fight.

>

>

 

Sounds like you want a game without diversity and different playstyles.

I know very well how it feels to play against/as most professions except revenant.

I dont think you will find a "fair" fight in any MMORPG. For "fair" fights id recommend For Honor, but cheese exists there aswell.

 

As a spellbreaker you are probably the toughest profession ingame. Highest base HP, probably best passive defense from traits in game and deals great damage.

Nothing would be a fair fight between a warrior and a thief if the thief cant evade and move around.

The closest you will ever get to a fair fight in this game is fighting someone with same profession, gear, traits and utilities as yourself.

[Traveller.7496]

I don't expect a thief not to use their skills. I'd just like them to commit. Another same problem is with soulbeast, they will run away and then hit you in the back. What can I do?

 

But on the other hand imagine how much it sucks to fight them, when you can't see them most of the time. A staff thief you can at least see and it's up to you to place that CC in between his evades.

 

You are correct that I may be asking what's not feasible or even possible in this game.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"nativity.3057" said:

> Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.

 

sight beyond sight: charges 2, cd 20s per charge

shadow meld: charges 2, cd per charge 45s

magebane tether, 3s of reveal every sec for 8s after landing a burst.

 

I mean it's not like warrior couldn't outreveal shadow meld already and that's without touching even core class yet...

 

also both abilities mentioned have their uses outside of combating deadeyes (SBS gives quaranteed crit and removes blind, magebane pulls people in when they run away and gives bonus to damage against tethered target an gives might, I am using SBS on my zerg spellbreaker already and if it was not build crafted specifically for zerging I'd be using magebane as well, in zergz I find enchanment collapse mroe usefull tho - but in zergs nothing deadeye can do matters anyway)

 

 

EDIT:

> @"Traveller.7496" said:

> I don't expect a thief not to use their skills. I'd just like them to commit. Another same problem is with soulbeast, they will run away and then hit you in the back. What can I do?

 

last time I have met soulbeast dude died before he got chance to run away.

 

btw there is old saying from the other MMO - if you are fighting in a fair fight, you already screwed up ;)

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> I use to play a game where the “thief” class could be permanently invisible until engaging in combat... and then fall back to being invisible once out of combat... Somehow, fights ended up being way more manageable, and more fun, for all parties involved... go figure.

>

> Edit- and there also happened to be fully fleshed out stealth and counter stealth systems... and one where any class could gain access to a certain level of stealth mechanics, just not as great as the “thief” class.

 

Yah but Anet would be seeing that as a punishing thing to do on stealth players, stealth needs to work for the most dumb player here.

Its a casual game, as much i would love stealth mechanics reworked and having a set of rules/validations.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Traveller.7496" said:

> I don't expect a thief not to use their skills. I'd just like them to commit. Another same problem is with soulbeast, they will run away and then hit you in the back. What can I do?

>

> But on the other hand imagine how much it sucks to fight them, when you can't see them most of the time. A staff thief you can at least see and it's up to you to place that CC in between his evades.

>

> You are correct that I may be asking what's not feasible or even possible in this game.

 

What constitutes "committing" to you against a Thief or a Ranger, though? I'd say as long as they are not resetting the fight they are still committed. Thieves in particular can't just stand in melee range and trade blows with anyone, let alone a Warrior.

[way.3865]


18k DAMAGE in single hit.

[Inoki.6048]

> @"way.3865" said:

> 

> 18k DAMAGE in single hit.

 

DEs have been complained about since the very beginning. Pretty much everyone anticipated this will be a problem. There have been "nerfs", or were there?

 

I think the company has proven us time and time again, that they do not take user feedback into consideration, at least not in its entirety.

 

Also, in order to boost sales what do you do? What does everyone do? The same I experienced e.g. in ESO - power creep. People have innate cravings for power. Think about how many people feel whilst holding a gun in their hand - power, superiority, dominance. You don't get that when what your characters do feels like response to an itch.

 

I don't think they will either revamp Deadeye properly or replace it. Go back in time a little bit and you will see that everything they did was mostly about boosting, not nerfing. They took it as a reverse concept - instead of toning down they boosted classes so they can keep up with others in terms of damage, but that's not how you achieve balance. And balance is very hard to achieve.

[Traveller.7496]

e: moving on

[nativity.3057]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"nativity.3057" said:

> > Rangers and Warriors will have to take a non-meta utility skill just to deal with one class, not to mention the CD is much longer.

>

> sight beyond sight: charges 2, cd 20s per charge

> shadow meld: charges 2, cd per charge 45s

> magebane tether, 3s of reveal every sec for 8s after landing a burst.

>

> I mean it's not like warrior couldn't outreveal shadow meld already and that's without touching even core class yet...

>

> also both abilities mentioned have their uses outside of combating deadeyes (SBS gives quaranteed crit and removes blind, magebane pulls people in when they run away and gives bonus to damage against tethered target an gives might, I am using SBS on my zerg spellbreaker already and if it was not build crafted specifically for zerging I'd be using magebane as well, in zergz I find enchanment collapse mroe usefull tho - but in zergs nothing deadeye can do matters anyway)

>

>

 

SBS has a range of 360. Only time you'd land it for the reveal is if the DE is going for the backstab. So you'd either have to predict the backstab from stealth, or try to tank the damage after the backstab lands.

On My Mark requires a target first. So OMM must be used first->DE uses Shadow Meld->OMM->Meld. DE now has the freedom to choose between continuing aggression or disengage.

Magebane tether requires burst to land. You can't land axe/dagger burst without a target. Arcing slice is under half the range of SBS (150), so it suffers the same range problem. Hammer is AoE but with a long cast time. If a Deadeye got hit by Hammer burst...nothing in their kit would save them.

 

Why talk about zerging when deadeyes are best for roaming?

Look at how the utility skills work for when you are roaming.

Core: To take OMM, you will have to give up Bull's Rush, Endure Pain, or Berserker Stance/Balanced Stance. Bull's Rush is your mobility, evade, CC, and damage multiplier skill. It's the only CC long enough to let you land 100b. It's also your other CC (if you run shield) to break enemy's stunbreak if they run more than one. The other two/three are your defensive skills.

 

SpB: Magebane tether is a good 1v1 trait, but Revenge Counter is the better trait for roaming (Enchantment collapse is definitely priority for zerging).

SpB does have more freedom in choosing a third utility skill, but SBS is not optimal for reasons mentioned above.

 

 

[WJHB.8130]

Run a tank spec. Boom. Problem solved. Either that or increase your situational awareness and get ready to dodge.

[SWI.4127]

2 Deadeyes currently stealthing each other in a T3 tower, and they are literally impossible to catch. What is the counter to this Anet? Maybe a reveal skill will help, oh look there are only 9 revealed skills in the game, and the class I'm playing **doesn't even have access to one**. On top of that, it's even more of a joke because they will just use their 2-charge skill to REMOVE REVEAL, the ONLY counter to stealth. This class is broken. How this even got through testing is baffling.

[Klypto.1703]

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> 2 Deadeyes currently stealthing each other in a T3 tower, and they are literally impossible to catch. What is the counter to this Anet? Maybe a reveal skill will help, oh look there are only 9 revealed skills in the game, and the class I'm playing **doesn't even have access to one**. On top of that, it's even more of a joke because they will just use their 2-charge skill to REMOVE REVEAL, the ONLY counter to stealth. This class is broken. How this even got through testing is baffling.

 

ALL classes have the access to stealth disruption traps in wvw. As well those nine reveal skills you speak of get half the cool down those charges do and on top of that to make the charges speed up faster than 45 seconds per charge you have to sacrifice a trait line just to do that on rng its not absolute or you use payback which sacrifices the stealth uptime which is clearly balanced vs 20 second recharges or better. The real problem is that players want to just make a tight knit group that cannot be beaten but the thief aspect of just about any mmorpg is that of a counter to that very thing. So you do have access to counter stealth but it is up to you or any other player for that matter when it comes to stealth whether to outplay the thief or to die to them.

[Zero.3871]

> @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > 2 Deadeyes currently stealthing each other in a T3 tower, and they are literally impossible to catch. What is the counter to this Anet? Maybe a reveal skill will help, oh look there are only 9 revealed skills in the game, and the class I'm playing **doesn't even have access to one**. On top of that, it's even more of a joke because they will just use their 2-charge skill to REMOVE REVEAL, the ONLY counter to stealth. This class is broken. How this even got through testing is baffling.

>

> ALL classes have the access to stealth disruption traps in wvw. As well those nine reveal skills you speak of get half the cool down those charges do and on top of that to make the charges speed up faster than 45 seconds per charge you have to sacrifice a trait line just to do that on rng its not absolute or you use payback which sacrifices the stealth uptime which is clearly balanced vs 20 second recharges or better. The real problem is that players want to just make a tight knit group that cannot be beaten but the thief aspect of just about any mmorpg is that of a counter to that very thing. So you do have access to counter stealth but it is up to you or any other player for that matter when it comes to stealth whether to outplay the thief or to die to them.

 

the Problem with Stealth disruption trap is that you Need 3 seconds to place it. every noob can see that and avoid that place where the trap was placed, even more when you have 1500 range to attack an enemy. and if you succeed to bait the DE in the trap he just use his elite to counter the reveal. DE invis spam has no real counterplay.

 

while Fighting an enemy that is perma stealthing is the most annoying you can do in a game. it is not Fighting, it is waiting for an enemy that Spams his DJ and go to invis by dodge again in just 1 sec. there is no counterplay.

 

if you try to counter DE mobility, you will see DE as thief is one of fastest classes in game. no Chance to counter him by mobility.

if you try to counter him with range, you will see that 1500 range is one of the greatest ranges in the game. so also no counter by range.

if you try to counter his invis, yep, no serious reveal skills on other classes but 2 times reveal counter on DE. so no counterplay.

if you try to reflect his DJ, oh DJ cant get blocked. no counterplay.

…

 

DE is beyond broken. its a Zero Risk/high reward class that has to get nerfes. anet has to **implement counterplay** by adding reveal on classes, taking out the unblock from DJ and giving silent scope an icd to stop this invis spam by dodges.

[Junkpile.7439]

> @"WJHB.8130" said:

> Run a tank spec. Boom. Problem solved. Either that or increase your situational awareness and get ready to dodge.

You can't dodge when there isn't any signs.

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > @"WJHB.8130" said:

> > Run a tank spec. Boom. Problem solved. Either that or increase your situational awareness and get ready to dodge.

> You can't dodge when there isn't any signs.

>

 

Also people tend to forgot how desynced the game is, while the atacker is being revealed when atacking, 1-2 sec after that will be revealed sometimes on the targets.

Sometimes we even atack plauyers at melee range and theres no numbers (wich forces to search a targets that arent desynced, while the other players keeps hititng you), thats the server f**** up things and not delivering packages due processing queue and delay.

 

 

Btw wasnt this one of the reasons Anet add to pull out of ESL?

[WJHB.8130]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > @"WJHB.8130" said:

> > Run a tank spec. Boom. Problem solved. Either that or increase your situational awareness and get ready to dodge.

> You can't dodge when there isn't any signs.

>

 

There are signs tho. Like the thief that mysteriously disappears behind you. Oh where'd he go? Maybe he's on ur back about to smash you into the mists

[Junkpile.7439]

> @"WJHB.8130" said:

> > @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > > @"WJHB.8130" said:

> > > Run a tank spec. Boom. Problem solved. Either that or increase your situational awareness and get ready to dodge.

> > You can't dodge when there isn't any signs.

> >

>

> There are signs tho. Like the thief that mysteriously disappears behind you. Oh where'd he go? Maybe he's on ur back about to smash you into the mists

Like what signs? Thief can hide in stealth under some bridge whole day and just wait that somebody run pass.

[WJHB.8130]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > @"WJHB.8130" said:

> > > @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > > > @"WJHB.8130" said:

> > > > Run a tank spec. Boom. Problem solved. Either that or increase your situational awareness and get ready to dodge.

> > > You can't dodge when there isn't any signs.

> > >

> >

> > There are signs tho. Like the thief that mysteriously disappears behind you. Oh where'd he go? Maybe he's on ur back about to smash you into the mists

> Like what signs? Thief can hide in stealth under some bridge whole day and just wait that somebody run pass.

 

I don't know any thieves that do that but just run aegis and a stun break everywhere...