Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > you cant just nerf braindeadeyes, bad players also need a build to play with, when soulbeast gets boring > > > > Deadeye was nerfed out of the gate but in true GW2 forum fashion people at the same time called it a poorly designed elite that was too weak for any game mode but also complained about being Marked and stalked while Malice built up. So, now instead of having to Kneel to stealth, having Cursed Bullet for a stealth skill, having to wait out Malice, and having to Kneel to get Revealed by Deaths Judgment regardless of stealth you get to see Dodgeye's running around. I'd love to go back to original DE, that was a really fun build to play and both versions are fun without much stealth or Shadow Meld. Regardless of your claim that it's for bad players, whatever changes could be made wouldn't satisfy you as most DE players would just figure out how to work with what they have. Without the clear visual of stealth to place blame on, you'd just pick another class with something easy to spot to cry about. > > Just to be clear, Im not saying that all DEs are bad players. But since the beginning, imo its quite obvious that Thief was designed to give bad players the chance to compete on an above average level. Skills are so overloaded with additional features that they just dont need, and just dont fit. A mediocre heal that gives stealth also gets condi cleanse on top, why? The blink gets a return _and_ condi cleanse. The house also gets a heal on top. Dagger storm also gets reflect and stability. Why is DJ unblockable? etc. > > Good players dont even need most of those features to perform well. Because they can, as you say, work around, and thats totally fine imo. But that should also be given for braindeadeyes victims, i. e. if Dj would be blockable or reflectable. The victim could work around DJ, and not-so-braindeadeyes ofc could work around that block or reflect. But I highly doubt that Anet is interested in making Thief a normal class, imo they made it even more braindead-proof over time. So you're not calling all deadeyes bad players, but then proceed to list your reasons for why deadeyes are bad players carried by their class. Alright then. I'd argue the builds that allow you to instantly heal to full from 20% health while being tanky enough to survive a burst and having good damage on top are way more hand holding than thief ever was (ele, ranger and guardian are the worst offenders for this), but each to their own. PS: Just to clarify, there are and always will be bad players on every class, and every class has builds that are easier for bad players to succeed on. That's not a reason to nerf one class so bad players can't succeed when the other classes still allow bad players to accomplish something, there are no "normal" classes in that regard. If you're purposely ignoring this fact then it's just an expression of your bias against thieves and isn't a rational argument when taking the rest of the game into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"dani.4398" said: > > And thanks to it's broken design, it will either have to be OP or dead. Now let's see, we're close to the 1 year anniversary of PoF, you guys already had your fun. I'm guessing the DE meme will soon die. > > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite... I never saw them in WvW before the rework, but the main problem now is I still don't see them....dotdotdot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"dani.4398" said: > > > And thanks to it's broken design, it will either have to be OP or dead. Now let's see, we're close to the 1 year anniversary of PoF, you guys already had your fun. I'm guessing the DE meme will soon die. > > > > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite... > > I never saw them in WvW before the rework, but the main problem now is I still don't see them....dotdotdot before the rework when you did play stealth heavy & 'onehits', then _you would play alot more in stealth than now_. because now the chances are much higher you can get back in stealth. people wanted deadeye not to just sit in stealth, stalk them and onehit them. so anet for most part made the deadeyes now engage before a huge execute by removing passive malice gain, but also provided the tools to prepare the burst with better restealth for example. if all the QQ here leads to more tools for the deadeye that he has to use i dont mind, it will most likely be a buff for a good one. and as most players here think that every deadeye is a bad player that doesnt even understand what going on in a fight, that wouldnt be a problem i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enkidu.5937 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > So you're not calling all deadeyes bad players, but then proceed to list your reasons for why deadeyes are bad players carried by their class. Alright then. > > I'd argue the builds that allow you to instantly heal to full from 20% health while being tanky enough to survive a burst and having good damage on top are way more hand holding than thief ever was (ele, ranger and guardian are the worst offenders for this), but each to their own. > > PS: Just to clarify, there are and always will be bad players on every class, and every class has builds that are easier for bad players to succeed on. That's not a reason to nerf one class so bad players can't succeed when the other classes still allow bad players to accomplish something, there are no "normal" classes in that regard. If you're purposely ignoring this fact then it's just an expression of your bias against thieves and isn't a rational argument when taking the rest of the game into account. No, I said that this class carries bad players because of unnecessary feature bonuses like DJ = unblockable. And that good players dont even benefit from those feature bonuses, because they instead could work around, as well. Consequently, nerfing these unnecessary feature bonuses could propably leave the good players performance mainly unaffected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > So you're not calling all deadeyes bad players, but then proceed to list your reasons for why deadeyes are bad players carried by their class. Alright then. > > > > I'd argue the builds that allow you to instantly heal to full from 20% health while being tanky enough to survive a burst and having good damage on top are way more hand holding than thief ever was (ele, ranger and guardian are the worst offenders for this), but each to their own. > > > > PS: Just to clarify, there are and always will be bad players on every class, and every class has builds that are easier for bad players to succeed on. That's not a reason to nerf one class so bad players can't succeed when the other classes still allow bad players to accomplish something, there are no "normal" classes in that regard. If you're purposely ignoring this fact then it's just an expression of your bias against thieves and isn't a rational argument when taking the rest of the game into account. > > No, I said that this class carries bad players because of unnecessary feature bonuses like DJ = unblockable. And that good players dont even benefit from those feature bonuses, because they instead could work around, as well. Consequently, nerfing these unnecessary feature bonuses could propably leave the good players performance mainly unaffected. the unblockable could be put elsewhere, but considering the amount of projectile hate some builds can have we need an unblockable somewhere (aside from BV). and if they put it on rifle 2 for little sustained pressure instead of DJ. i would actually prefer it there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > So you're not calling all deadeyes bad players, but then proceed to list your reasons for why deadeyes are bad players carried by their class. Alright then. > > > > I'd argue the builds that allow you to instantly heal to full from 20% health while being tanky enough to survive a burst and having good damage on top are way more hand holding than thief ever was (ele, ranger and guardian are the worst offenders for this), but each to their own. > > > > PS: Just to clarify, there are and always will be bad players on every class, and every class has builds that are easier for bad players to succeed on. That's not a reason to nerf one class so bad players can't succeed when the other classes still allow bad players to accomplish something, there are no "normal" classes in that regard. If you're purposely ignoring this fact then it's just an expression of your bias against thieves and isn't a rational argument when taking the rest of the game into account. > > No, I said that this class carries bad players because of unnecessary feature bonuses like DJ = unblockable. And that good players dont even benefit from those feature bonuses, because they instead could work around, as well. Consequently, nerfing these unnecessary feature bonuses could propably leave the good players performance mainly unaffected. You could argue that about any class, as they all have low skill builds with abilities that serve multiple purposes that carry the player in some way. Does that mean we should nerf functionality on all low skill builds on all classes? Because singling out thief for this without acknowledging how other classes do the same thing is biased, pure and simple. Also, you haven't shown where good players don't benefit from the added functionality. I purposely save my DJ for the enemy's blocks as I know it will have a greater effect, either to keep up pressure or to secure a down. Saving a skill to counter a specific defense or for when it's more likely to hit is good play, especially if people panic spam block after my opener. Just because I don't necessarily need it doesn't mean I don't benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > I'd argue the builds that allow you to instantly heal to full from 20% health while being tanky enough to survive a burst and having good damage on top are way more hand holding than thief ever was (ele, ranger and guardian are the worst offenders for this), While a healer build can heal itself to full, you've got a very different definition of "good damage" than I. Nobody ever lost a duel to a minstrels guard. Just like thieves choose between evade or stealth, other classes choose between heal or damage. Trying to do both ends in hybrids that can do neither well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > I'd argue the builds that allow you to instantly heal to full from 20% health while being tanky enough to survive a burst and having good damage on top are way more hand holding than thief ever was (ele, ranger and guardian are the worst offenders for this), > > While a healer build can heal itself to full, you've got a very different definition of "good damage" than I. Nobody ever lost a duel to a minstrels guard. Just like thieves choose between evade or stealth, other classes choose between heal or damage. Trying to do both ends in hybrids that can do neither well. That's true, I'm not talking about pure healers nor am I claiming these specs have great damage, just not awful damage if that makes sense. There is a fine line with a few builds using healing power where they can get acceptable levels of healing and tankiness without sacrificing all their damage to get it, it's those builds I was thinking of. I don't consider this a problem either, my main point was that there's builds on all classes that carry the player so if we're singling out deadeye for nerfs as it carries bad players why do we not single out the low skill builds of other classes also? Not doing so shows considerable bias, which isn't a good reason to nerf something. Just to be clear to everyone, the reason people don't like deadeye is generally the excessive stealthing. There is one particular build that uses permastealth running SA/CS/DE with either zerker or valkyrie gear, most builds not running SA don't have permanent stealth uptime so there's adequate windows of opportunity to kill it already. I'm happy to consider changes to the permastealth spec to make it feel more fun to fight against and that provide windows of opportunity to kill the deadeye while not nerfing it or other specs into the floor, and I've advocated such changes myself (like making shadow arts apply increased reveal time as well as increased stealth time from the minor trait etc). Just bring specific points to consider, not just general bias like the other guy did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoV.5139 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye. > > > > > > > > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will. > > > > > > > > > > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field. > > > > That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned. > > > > Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it. > > Perm Stealth DE's don't take Trickery. Non-perm stealth DE's don't take trickster. > ..... > ????? Moving the goal posts, 5 citations in one thread alone. This is another attempt to artificially and arbitrarily restrict what can be discussed, by claiming any statement of abilities used which doesnt fit the "all is fine, no nerf needed" agenda isnt taken by this mysterious one and only build you continue to vaguely refer to. Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE. Also note, the point the person I quoted made, is their only defense here would be to Dun Dun DUUUUUNNNNN.....go back into stealth. So somehow they (and you) believe that weakness counters the ability to go back into stealth, to which their only defense is to....wait for it....go back into stealth. Im guessing the rest of the folks defending this are glossing over this error in logic as you are advocating the same position. AKA - You guys are falling all over each other in here in attempt to keep this easy button in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > I'd argue the builds that allow you to instantly heal to full from 20% health while being tanky enough to survive a burst and having good damage on top are way more hand holding than thief ever was (ele, ranger and guardian are the worst offenders for this), > > While a healer build can heal itself to full, you've got a very different definition of "good damage" than I. Nobody ever lost a duel to a minstrels guard. Just like thieves choose between evade or stealth, other classes choose between heal or damage. Trying to do both ends in hybrids that can do neither well. Holo for example can build semi tanky, maintain 15 + might stacks and blast healing turret 2/3 times and can even get away with a leap too. That's good dmg, crazy sustain/heal and pretty tanky. Sb are pretty much the same if they time fc properly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"SoV.5139" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field. > > > > > > That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned. > > > > > > Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it. > > > > Perm Stealth DE's don't take Trickery. Non-perm stealth DE's don't take trickster. > > ..... > > ????? > Moving the goal posts, 5 citations in one thread alone. > > This is another attempt to artificially and arbitrarily restrict what can be discussed, by claiming any statement of abilities used which doesnt fit the "all is fine, no nerf needed" agenda isnt taken by this mysterious one and only build you continue to vaguely refer to. > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE. > > Also note, the point the person I quoted made, is their only defense here would be to Dun Dun DUUUUUNNNNN.....go back into stealth. So somehow they (and you) believe that weakness counters the ability to go back into stealth, to which their only defense is to....wait for it....go back into stealth. Im guessing the rest of the folks defending this are glossing over this error in logic as you are advocating the same position. AKA - You guys are falling all over each other in here in attempt to keep this easy button in the game. The goalposts don't exist if you're not even kicking the ball. - try going back to your logical fallacy website and copy/pasting something else next time, you've failed quite a bit at your attempts with the goalposts one. Stop trying (and failing) to argue semantics and perhaps try to actually counter-argue the points made. You should probably just try playing DE, at this point it's the only way you'll learn what it is that tilts you so much. Hint: It's not Trickery or Trickster - which is *clearly* what I replied in regards to. I'm simply pointing out that it is very clear you have no idea what you're talking about when you try to refute other people's arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reh.5986 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Just fix the perma stealth nonsense so they have to work a bit and fix the psychotic 1 shot lvl dmg without malice on the actual target. Other classes would like to run glass too and not every class has six years of endure pain on passive. Counter play shouldn't be random dodging when no1 is around or rolling firebrand/spellbreaker/holo. If you have a mark on you, aside from DE's ability to ignore reveal, then we're at least getting into an area where you know you're in a fight and may get 1shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoV.5139 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field. > > > > > > > > That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned. > > > > > > > > Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it. > > > > > > Perm Stealth DE's don't take Trickery. Non-perm stealth DE's don't take trickster. > > > ..... > > > ????? > > Moving the goal posts, 5 citations in one thread alone. > > > > This is another attempt to artificially and arbitrarily restrict what can be discussed, by claiming any statement of abilities used which doesnt fit the "all is fine, no nerf needed" agenda isnt taken by this mysterious one and only build you continue to vaguely refer to. > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE. > > > > Also note, the point the person I quoted made, is their only defense here would be to Dun Dun DUUUUUNNNNN.....go back into stealth. So somehow they (and you) believe that weakness counters the ability to go back into stealth, to which their only defense is to....wait for it....go back into stealth. Im guessing the rest of the folks defending this are glossing over this error in logic as you are advocating the same position. AKA - You guys are falling all over each other in here in attempt to keep this easy button in the game. > > The goalposts don't exist if you're not even kicking the ball. - try going back to your logical fallacy website and copy/pasting something else next time, you've failed quite a bit at your attempts with the goalposts one. Stop trying (and failing) to argue semantics and perhaps try to actually counter-argue the points made. > > You should probably just try playing DE, at this point it's the only way you'll learn what it is that tilts you so much. Hint: It's not Trickery or Trickster - which is *clearly* what I replied in regards to. I'm simply pointing out that it is very clear you have no idea what you're talking about when you try to refute other people's arguments. speaking of copy paste responses... - 17 iterations cited of claiming someone who doesnt agree with keeping the EZButton® in game somehow equates to not having played the class, in the same one thread. Typically going ad-hom, rather than addressing the point made indicates having zero refutation of point made. Smoke and mirrors might be a good tactic in game, but its failing here on the forums. XD Positions of : DE is fine + remove down state heavily advocated for, is a dead giveaway as to what is desired here - a low skill method of being able to one shot the tail of zergs, with impunity, without having to suffer any consequences afterward. Deny it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"SoV.5139" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field. > > > > > > > > > > That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned. > > > > > > > > > > Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it. > > > > > > > > Perm Stealth DE's don't take Trickery. Non-perm stealth DE's don't take trickster. > > > > ..... > > > > ????? > > > Moving the goal posts, 5 citations in one thread alone. > > > > > > This is another attempt to artificially and arbitrarily restrict what can be discussed, by claiming any statement of abilities used which doesnt fit the "all is fine, no nerf needed" agenda isnt taken by this mysterious one and only build you continue to vaguely refer to. > > > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE. > > > > > > Also note, the point the person I quoted made, is their only defense here would be to Dun Dun DUUUUUNNNNN.....go back into stealth. So somehow they (and you) believe that weakness counters the ability to go back into stealth, to which their only defense is to....wait for it....go back into stealth. Im guessing the rest of the folks defending this are glossing over this error in logic as you are advocating the same position. AKA - You guys are falling all over each other in here in attempt to keep this easy button in the game. > > > > The goalposts don't exist if you're not even kicking the ball. - try going back to your logical fallacy website and copy/pasting something else next time, you've failed quite a bit at your attempts with the goalposts one. Stop trying (and failing) to argue semantics and perhaps try to actually counter-argue the points made. > > > > You should probably just try playing DE, at this point it's the only way you'll learn what it is that tilts you so much. Hint: It's not Trickery or Trickster - which is *clearly* what I replied in regards to. I'm simply pointing out that it is very clear you have no idea what you're talking about when you try to refute other people's arguments. > > speaking of copy paste responses... - 17 iterations cited of claiming someone who doesnt agree with keeping the EZButton® in game somehow equates to not having played the class, in the same one thread. > > Typically going ad-hom, rather than addressing the point made indicates having zero refutation of point made. Smoke and mirrors might be a good tactic in game, but its failing here on the forums. XD > > Positions of : DE is fine + remove down state heavily advocated for, is a dead giveaway as to what is desired here - a low skill method of being able to one shot the tail of zergs, with impunity, without having to suffer any consequences afterward. > > Deny it. Ok, lets circle back around one more time, as you are still missing point after point after point. Perhaps you'll answer the question below this time rather than start arguing semantics and resorting to hyperbole and misinformation? >a low skill method of being able to one shot the tail of zergs, with impunity, without having to suffer any consequences afterward. **- Can all DE builds do this?** Please keep in mind that I *clearly* have been advocating the removal of perma-stealth/stealth on dodge. The only time I've been chiming in has been to correct people like you who are making wild claims and citing traits that *aren't used by the builds people are complaining about.* You talking about Trickery and Trickster is like if the topic was regarding Holosmith's being OP, and you kept citing the trait Juggernaut as "proof." - it's not something that is used, and if it *is* used somewhere, it's so far from the problem that it has no business being discussed. Deny it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoV.5139 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field. > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it. > > > > > > > > > > Perm Stealth DE's don't take Trickery. Non-perm stealth DE's don't take trickster. > > > > > ..... > > > > > ????? > > > > Moving the goal posts, 5 citations in one thread alone. > > > > > > > > This is another attempt to artificially and arbitrarily restrict what can be discussed, by claiming any statement of abilities used which doesnt fit the "all is fine, no nerf needed" agenda isnt taken by this mysterious one and only build you continue to vaguely refer to. > > > > > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE. > > > > > > > > Also note, the point the person I quoted made, is their only defense here would be to Dun Dun DUUUUUNNNNN.....go back into stealth. So somehow they (and you) believe that weakness counters the ability to go back into stealth, to which their only defense is to....wait for it....go back into stealth. Im guessing the rest of the folks defending this are glossing over this error in logic as you are advocating the same position. AKA - You guys are falling all over each other in here in attempt to keep this easy button in the game. > > > > > > The goalposts don't exist if you're not even kicking the ball. - try going back to your logical fallacy website and copy/pasting something else next time, you've failed quite a bit at your attempts with the goalposts one. Stop trying (and failing) to argue semantics and perhaps try to actually counter-argue the points made. > > > > > > You should probably just try playing DE, at this point it's the only way you'll learn what it is that tilts you so much. Hint: It's not Trickery or Trickster - which is *clearly* what I replied in regards to. I'm simply pointing out that it is very clear you have no idea what you're talking about when you try to refute other people's arguments. > > > > speaking of copy paste responses... - 17 iterations cited of claiming someone who doesnt agree with keeping the EZButton® in game somehow equates to not having played the class, in the same one thread. > > > > Typically going ad-hom, rather than addressing the point made indicates having zero refutation of point made. Smoke and mirrors might be a good tactic in game, but its failing here on the forums. XD > > > > Positions of : DE is fine + remove down state heavily advocated for, is a dead giveaway as to what is desired here - a low skill method of being able to one shot the tail of zergs, with impunity, without having to suffer any consequences afterward. > > > > Deny it. > > Ok, lets circle back around one more time, as you are still missing point after point after point. Perhaps you'll answer the question below this time rather than start arguing semantics and resorting to hyperbole and misinformation? > > >a low skill method of being able to one shot the tail of zergs, with impunity, without having to suffer any consequences afterward. > > **- Can all DE builds do this?** > > Please keep in mind that I *clearly* have been advocating the removal of perma-stealth/stealth on dodge. The only time I've been chiming in has been to correct people like you who are making wild claims and citing traits that *aren't used by the builds people are complaining about.* You talking about Trickery and Trickster is like if the topic was regarding Holosmith's being OP, and you kept citing the trait Juggernaut as "proof." - it's not something that is used, and if it *is* used somewhere, it's so far from the problem that it has no business being discussed. > > Deny it. > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Klypto.1703" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > > > > That brings me to my next point. Playing against a Deadeye requires players to be way too reactive. The onus is on the Deadeye to make the first move. Ignoring the balance implications, it's just flat out boring for everyone but the Deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes this is a major part of the issue. There is no way to play aggressive against something that is guaranteed to always get the drop on its opponent. All of these other specs which get stealth can be revealed and countered after the ambush. If they get outplayed after the ambush they lose the fight. If DE gets outplayed after the ambush, it simply vanishes and moves on, or it can reset and repeat at will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dodge roll does have a counter its called weakness. No endurance means no dodge stealth which means a deadeye is then forced to stealth like any other thief. So then the problem is null and void. You don't need to reveal just leap or blast a poison field. > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesnt make the problem null and void. Thief, including DE wipes condi in stealth, or they wipe condi on tricks, which can be done even when in stealth. They simply vanish and move on if they get outplayed after the ambush, or reset and keep ambushing until one finally succeeds. This IS the issue as far as I'm concerned. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any other spec that can stealth can get the drop, but if their burst fails to down the other player, that player can then make them pay for it. > > > > > > > > > > Perm Stealth DE's don't take Trickery. Non-perm stealth DE's don't take trickster. > > > > > ..... > > > > > ????? > > > > Moving the goal posts, 5 citations in one thread alone. > > > > > > > > This is another attempt to artificially and arbitrarily restrict what can be discussed, by claiming any statement of abilities used which doesnt fit the "all is fine, no nerf needed" agenda isnt taken by this mysterious one and only build you continue to vaguely refer to. > > > > > > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE. > > > > > > > > Also note, the point the person I quoted made, is their only defense here would be to Dun Dun DUUUUUNNNNN.....go back into stealth. So somehow they (and you) believe that weakness counters the ability to go back into stealth, to which their only defense is to....wait for it....go back into stealth. Im guessing the rest of the folks defending this are glossing over this error in logic as you are advocating the same position. AKA - You guys are falling all over each other in here in attempt to keep this easy button in the game. > > > > > > The goalposts don't exist if you're not even kicking the ball. - try going back to your logical fallacy website and copy/pasting something else next time, you've failed quite a bit at your attempts with the goalposts one. Stop trying (and failing) to argue semantics and perhaps try to actually counter-argue the points made. > > > > > > You should probably just try playing DE, at this point it's the only way you'll learn what it is that tilts you so much. Hint: It's not Trickery or Trickster - which is *clearly* what I replied in regards to. I'm simply pointing out that it is very clear you have no idea what you're talking about when you try to refute other people's arguments. > > > > speaking of copy paste responses... - 17 iterations cited of claiming someone who doesnt agree with keeping the EZButton® in game somehow equates to not having played the class, in the same one thread. > > > > Typically going ad-hom, rather than addressing the point made indicates having zero refutation of point made. Smoke and mirrors might be a good tactic in game, but its failing here on the forums. XD > > > > Positions of : DE is fine + remove down state heavily advocated for, is a dead giveaway as to what is desired here - a low skill method of being able to one shot the tail of zergs, with impunity, without having to suffer any consequences afterward. > > > > Deny it. > > Ok, lets circle back around one more time, as you are still missing point after point after point. Perhaps you'll answer the question below this time rather than start arguing semantics and resorting to hyperbole and misinformation? > > >a low skill method of being able to one shot the tail of zergs, with impunity, without having to suffer any consequences afterward. > > **- Can all DE builds do this?** > > Please keep in mind that I *clearly* have been advocating the removal of perma-stealth/stealth on dodge. The only time I've been chiming in has been to correct people like you who are making wild claims and citing traits that *aren't used by the builds people are complaining about.* You talking about Trickery and Trickster is like if the topic was regarding Holosmith's being OP, and you kept citing the trait Juggernaut as "proof." - it's not something that is used, and if it *is* used somewhere, it's so far from the problem that it has no business being discussed. > > Deny it. More false dichotomy and smoke and mirrors (holosmiths, really?) about only being able to use a specific build - being used to talk past stuff you have no answer for. Nobody falls for this discussion lawyering and word parsing stuff, and most see it for what it is - moving the goal posts. Office pool says we are up to double digits before the weekend. Come on we can do this. Clawing tooth and nail to defend this obviously broken easy button is what will get it nerfed, as the quantity based quote > baiting > ad-hom posting inflates threads that could easily be a few pages of discussion into multiplicitively larger sizes, drawing more attention to the issue. Ill be back post nerf to thank you for the support. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"SoV.5139" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > Ok, lets circle back around one more time, as you are still missing point after point after point. Perhaps you'll answer the question below this time rather than start arguing semantics and resorting to hyperbole and misinformation? > > > > >a low skill method of being able to one shot the tail of zergs, with impunity, without having to suffer any consequences afterward. > > > > **- Can all DE builds do this?** > > > > Please keep in mind that I *clearly* have been advocating the removal of perma-stealth/stealth on dodge. The only time I've been chiming in has been to correct people like you who are making wild claims and citing traits that *aren't used by the builds people are complaining about.* You talking about Trickery and Trickster is like if the topic was regarding Holosmith's being OP, and you kept citing the trait Juggernaut as "proof." - it's not something that is used, and if it *is* used somewhere, it's so far from the problem that it has no business being discussed. > > > > Deny it. > > More false dichotomy and smoke and mirrors (holosmiths, really?) about only being able to use a specific build - being used to talk past stuff you have no answer for. Nobody falls for this discussion lawyering and word parsing stuff, and most see it for what it is - moving the goal posts. > > Office pool says we are up to double digits before the weekend. > > Come on we can do this. > > Clawing tooth and nail to defend this obviously broken easy button is what will get it nerfed, as the quantity based quote > baiting > ad-hom posting inflates threads that could easily be a few pages of discussion into multiplicitively larger sizes, drawing more attention to the issue. > > Ill be back post nerf to thank you for the support. XD > So that's another no to answering a simple question? Yeah, I thought as much. This sounds like you are conceding, thanks for playing. :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"SoV.5139" said: > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE. > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE. > > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build. > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enkidu.5937 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"enkidu.5937" said: > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > So you're not calling all deadeyes bad players, but then proceed to list your reasons for why deadeyes are bad players carried by their class. Alright then. > > > > > > I'd argue the builds that allow you to instantly heal to full from 20% health while being tanky enough to survive a burst and having good damage on top are way more hand holding than thief ever was (ele, ranger and guardian are the worst offenders for this), but each to their own. > > > > > > PS: Just to clarify, there are and always will be bad players on every class, and every class has builds that are easier for bad players to succeed on. That's not a reason to nerf one class so bad players can't succeed when the other classes still allow bad players to accomplish something, there are no "normal" classes in that regard. If you're purposely ignoring this fact then it's just an expression of your bias against thieves and isn't a rational argument when taking the rest of the game into account. > > > > No, I said that this class carries bad players because of unnecessary feature bonuses like DJ = unblockable. And that good players dont even benefit from those feature bonuses, because they instead could work around, as well. Consequently, nerfing these unnecessary feature bonuses could propably leave the good players performance mainly unaffected. > > You could argue that about any class, as they all have low skill builds with abilities that serve multiple purposes that carry the player in some way. Does that mean we should nerf functionality on all low skill builds on all classes? Because singling out thief for this without acknowledging how other classes do the same thing is biased, pure and simple. > > Also, you haven't shown where good players don't benefit from the added functionality. I purposely save my DJ for the enemy's blocks as I know it will have a greater effect, either to keep up pressure or to secure a down. Saving a skill to counter a specific defense or for when it's more likely to hit is good play, especially if people panic spam block after my opener. Just because I don't necessarily need it doesn't mean I don't benefit. At least for my personal definition, optimizing the usage of an OP skill, that is unnecessarily overloaded with braindead-features, doesn't make it "good play". Just because you don't use it solely braindead doesn't automatically turn it into "good play" imo. Since you say you "don't necessarily need" the unblockably feature, I don't entirely get your point, when I say nerfing would leave good players performance "mainly unaffected", because they can work around. When I leveled a Thief on my own, to play and learn their builds for counter purpose, I was laughing for weeks, when I learned about their skills "additional features". Haven't seen that at any other class, and thus wouldn't call that "biased". I personally see a clear difference between low-skill builds that carry bad players "in some way", as you say, and a free unblockable on top of a skill that already has extreme damage, extreme range, comes from perma stealth and has low CD. First ones ofc shouldn't be nerfed, the latter one should, because "low skill -> high reward" doesnt fit imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"enkidu.5937" said: > I personally see a clear difference between low-skill builds that carry bad players "in some way", as you say, and a free unblockable on top of a skill that already has extreme damage, extreme range, comes from perma stealth and has low CD. First ones ofc shouldn't be nerfed, the latter one should, because "low skill -> high reward" doesnt fit imo. the stealth part is not a bonus it is a requirement, a resource one need to invest. you also forgot the rather long cast+traveltime combined with the obvious tells making that skill super easy to react to as well as the requirement to build up some malice etc. for it to actually deal that 'extreme damage'. IMO cursed bullet was in many ways alot stronger against better players, mostly because lower tells and you didnt lose your stealth on a miss. and because it is more reliable to hit. again moving that unblockable from DJ to rifle 2 would be a nice buff for deadeyes (especially as it is a malice buildup shot) and people would complain less about their inability to block DJ. considering how much experience i got on the profession i feel alot more low skill -> high reward on my soulbeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoV.5139 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"SoV.5139" said: > > > Simply put: If its available to core thief, its also available to DE. > > > > > Not true. If a deadeye wants to run say Trickery for the condi removal on tricks, that deadeye build is then limited to one other core trait line whereas a core thief build could pick up two more. Perma steath deadeye ideally won't use Trickery for this reason; Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes are the far better pairing for the build. > > > > I wouldn't bother, he's convinced he's right and labels any attempt to logically explain why he's wrong as moving the goalposts despite his argument requiring the thief to select 4 specialisations at once, just see what Turk wrote. This type of person deserves to be one shot as he refuses to hear criticism, unfortunately for him. That strawman argument doesnt apply. Its very rare that I ask for nerfs, but when something is so blown out of proportion that it definately needs nerfing, my reaction is not a negative reaction due to how others play. Its due to abusing the shinola out of the mechanic myself to the point where I can get away with shenanigans I would not be able to get away with on another class/build. You think someone's knocking on the door for me? No, I'm the one who knocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dani.4398 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite... Usually after the 1 year mark Anet is able to tone down the elite specs that they release after an expansion. After PoF, we saw it mainly with the nerfs to Scourge, FB, SB, Mirage and Holo we also saw some buffs and reworks DE and Slb between other specs. DE proves hard to balance due to it's broken design, tell me:: how do you balance a spec that's meant to take more than 50% of the opponent's health on the initial hit? Also don't forget this happens while the DE sits on stealth, how is an opponent of any other spec supposed to counter it? And if the opponent manages to counter it, how does it deal with the insane utility the DE spec has due to traits, skills and WvW mechanics? So what do you do? Do you tone down the damage? Do you tone down utility? If you touch one or the other the spec dies, cause it's the combination of both which makes it so annoying and effective. Sucks, but this is Anet's fault for such poor design of a spec. And don't get me wrong, I'd like for every spec to have a way to be viable, but you can't have that when the spec was designed without thinking of the player vs player aspect. I doubt many players go around saying "jezz, that was such a good fight vs that DE, he 2 shotted me, but lit fight!" or "jezz, I lasted longer than I have ever lasted against that DE, but after his 16th stealth reengage he finally got me!". Most players just want to feel like they have a chance vs whatever they face in WvW, but when the game mechanics make it so boring that a spec can literally just 11111 you, you kind of quit playing. Here is a jewel from my lad Noody, I think his video shows it better than my words: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 noody mainly complains about the opening damage of a backstab, wich he could also get close to as daredevil, mostly due to assassins signet and going berserk/valk - using marauder stats is a huge dmg loss if you want to oneshot. permastealth is also achieved with minimal investment using bound. from the video one can also tell that all the people he so nicely did oneshot were running rather glassy builds, no protection etc. (he is running 0 boonrip) i dont know if thats the norm over there in NA, but in EU certainly not. i can make a select montage with onehits but that doesnt change that many wont drop from such a backstab and often walk in groups in wich it is a lot better to use rifle over dagger to drag their allies attention away from their position to get a chance for a stomp. overall if that in the video is an issue of yours i think its more an issue in the weapon design of the dagger not the deadeye, altho the malice bonus to the daggers stealth attack enhances that design. older thief weapons surely could use a redesign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > noody mainly complains about the opening damage of a backstab, wich he could also get close to as daredevil, mostly due to assassins signet and going berserk/valk - using marauder stats is a huge dmg loss if you want to oneshot. permastealth is also achieved with minimal investment using bound. > from the video one can also tell that all the people he so nicely did oneshot were running rather glassy builds, no protection etc. (he is running 0 boonrip) i dont know if thats the norm over there in NA, but in EU certainly not. i can make a select montage with onehits but that doesnt change that many wont drop from such a backstab and often walk in groups in wich it is a lot better to use rifle over dagger to drag their allies attention away from their position to get a chance for a stomp. > > overall if that in the video is an issue of yours i think its more an issue in the weapon design of the dagger not the deadeye, altho the malice bonus to the daggers stealth attack enchances that design. > > older thief weapons surely could use a redesign. > NA is different depending on the time of day and matchup anyway. I keep my build pretty generic and easy to switch around my kit and traits quickly and lately during our matchups I've felt more of a need for boon steal, pulls, and Basilik Venom. > @"dani.4398" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > You honestly think that DE was *always* even remotely as viable as it is now? Before May of this year DE was almost unanimously agreed upon to be PoF's second weakest elite... > > Usually after the 1 year mark Anet is able to tone down the elite specs that they release after an expansion. After PoF, we saw it mainly with the nerfs to Scourge, FB, SB, Mirage and Holo we also saw some buffs and reworks DE and Slb between other specs. > > DE proves hard to balance due to it's broken design, tell me:: how do you balance a spec that's meant to take more than 50% of the opponent's health on the initial hit? Also don't forget this happens while the DE sits on stealth, how is an opponent of any other spec supposed to counter it? And if the opponent manages to counter it, how does it deal with the insane utility the DE spec has due to traits, skills and WvW mechanics? > > **So what do you do? Do you tone down the damage? Do you tone down utility?** If you touch one or the other the spec dies, cause it's the combination of both which makes it so annoying and effective. Sucks, but this is Anet's fault for such poor design of a spec. And don't get me wrong, I'd like for every spec to have a way to be viable, but you can't have that when the spec was designed without thinking of the player vs player aspect. > > I doubt many players go around saying "jezz, that was such a good fight vs that DE, he 2 shotted me, but lit fight!" or "jezz, I lasted longer than I have ever lasted against that DE, but after his 16th stealth reengage he finally got me!". Most players just want to feel like they have a chance vs whatever they face in WvW, but when the game mechanics make it so boring that a spec can literally just 11111 you, you kind of quit playing. > > Here is a jewel from my lad Noody, I think his video shows it better than my words: You don't tone down damage or utility, you stagger out stealth to make it more of a select option but more burst sustainable with Shadow Arts for when you crash into a zerg. DE is already easy enough to shake off unless they're really good and closing the distance often for Malicious Backstab, otherwise I'm trying to avoid Daredevils mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenji.4907 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > overall if that in the video is an issue of yours i think its more an issue in the weapon design of the dagger not the deadeye, altho the malice bonus to the daggers stealth attack enhances that design. > > older thief weapons surely could use a redesign. > I can agree with on the idea that it should get redesign for dual daggers. Also, I agree with you that these videos people can actually they have tons of fights but only show what proves their point. On Noody's point though I do agree there should be some form of game play strategies other than one shot kill and permastealth cancer style. I too am tempted to run that one shot style too; throw away skills and tactics/counterplay and just do one shots/stealth since it works and I get rewarded for it. There is no need to fight other builds and practice. And just focus on stealthing up and and hiting 1 at the right time. Then what happens when everyone is doing this too? People then demand for a nerf to the thief class. Daggers been nerf so much! But Anet thinks if they nerf daggers then people will use the rifle part of the DE more. How is that fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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