Kuulpb.5412 Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > > UPDATE: They just nerfed necro Mobility by making the 25% movement speed ONLY above 75% on quickening thirst... WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT ANET SERIOUSLY? > > > > > > > > > > They buffed it, I no longer have to carry a dagger or signet of the locust. The only time I had a dagger before was fractals, and the trait was superfluous there anyway. > > > > > > > > How is it a buff to only have 25% movement speed above 75% health, when e.g. warrior gets it for ANY melee weapon at all times with a melee weapon. it means If you go below 75% health the bonus is gone. whereas before you could keep 25% while under 75%, sure you can now move faster out of combat, but in combat you're slower than before if you previously used the trait with dagger. > > > > > > If necro had perma superspeed it couldn't outrun a warrior in combat anyway. I can't always stay ahead of them on a three dodge daredevil, so I don't expect to on a necro. > > > > > > I'm mostly concerned about wvw, and having the move speed on a trait frees up a utility slot that will be more useful when drawn into combat. I may still not run it, but now it's a consideration I can make. > > > > > > In spvp it's even more useful, I can see the new version of the trait getting a lot more play. You're going to be fighting on a point or at full health running between points. > > > > in WvW and Pvp players can hit you for much more than 25% of your ma health in one hit, meaning You won't be able to escape them, ever. > > Well maybe you can't, but I have a lot of success in both game modes lowering my opponent's health to zero before mine. It is unrelated to the argument that you were making. > > Don't get me wrong, I know what a good burst from an enemy feels like. A little buildcraft and dodging goes a long way, though. My post was about lack of Anti-Stun, access to stability and mobility, lowering the duration of having mobility in combat either means you have to make sure you're healed, Hope your opponent tries bursting when you dodge, or just means if you get immobilised and hit, you can't run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesacon.8735 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > UPDATE: They just nerfed necro Mobility by making the 25% movement speed ONLY above 75% on quickening thirst... WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT ANET SERIOUSLY? > > > > > > > > They buffed it, I no longer have to carry a dagger or signet of the locust. The only time I had a dagger before was fractals, and the trait was superfluous there anyway. > > > > > > How is it a buff to only have 25% movement speed above 75% health, when e.g. warrior gets it for ANY melee weapon at all times with a melee weapon. it means If you go below 75% health the bonus is gone. whereas before you could keep 25% while under 75%, sure you can now move faster out of combat, but in combat you're slower than before if you previously used the trait with dagger. > > > > If necro had perma superspeed it couldn't outrun a warrior in combat anyway. I can't always stay ahead of them on a three dodge daredevil, so I don't expect to on a necro. > > > > I'm mostly concerned about wvw, and having the move speed on a trait frees up a utility slot that will be more useful when drawn into combat. I may still not run it, but now it's a consideration I can make. > > > > In spvp it's even more useful, I can see the new version of the trait getting a lot more play. You're going to be fighting on a point or at full health running between points. > > Or you can see it for what it is: a nerf for in combat mobility. > Honnestly, 25% speed while above 75%, there is no reason to take the trait at all unless you are using dagger and need the cool down reduction for dagger. If you need movement speed, you can just take locust signet and have a "defensive" CD sloted. I see it exactly the opposite, now I can take the trait over signet of locust for outside combat and use either spectral walk or trail of anguish for a way better utility in combat. Both of which are way better for mobility and offer a stun break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesacon.8735 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > > > UPDATE: They just nerfed necro Mobility by making the 25% movement speed ONLY above 75% on quickening thirst... WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT ANET SERIOUSLY? > > > > > > > > > > > > They buffed it, I no longer have to carry a dagger or signet of the locust. The only time I had a dagger before was fractals, and the trait was superfluous there anyway. > > > > > > > > > > How is it a buff to only have 25% movement speed above 75% health, when e.g. warrior gets it for ANY melee weapon at all times with a melee weapon. it means If you go below 75% health the bonus is gone. whereas before you could keep 25% while under 75%, sure you can now move faster out of combat, but in combat you're slower than before if you previously used the trait with dagger. > > > > > > > > If necro had perma superspeed it couldn't outrun a warrior in combat anyway. I can't always stay ahead of them on a three dodge daredevil, so I don't expect to on a necro. > > > > > > > > I'm mostly concerned about wvw, and having the move speed on a trait frees up a utility slot that will be more useful when drawn into combat. I may still not run it, but now it's a consideration I can make. > > > > > > > > In spvp it's even more useful, I can see the new version of the trait getting a lot more play. You're going to be fighting on a point or at full health running between points. > > > > > > in WvW and Pvp players can hit you for much more than 25% of your ma health in one hit, meaning You won't be able to escape them, ever. > > > > Well maybe you can't, but I have a lot of success in both game modes lowering my opponent's health to zero before mine. It is unrelated to the argument that you were making. > > > > Don't get me wrong, I know what a good burst from an enemy feels like. A little buildcraft and dodging goes a long way, though. > > My post was about lack of Anti-Stun, access to stability and mobility, lowering the duration of having mobility in combat either means you have to make sure you're healed, Hope your opponent tries bursting when you dodge, or just means if you get immobilised and hit, you can't run. If you're hoping they burst when you dodge, you're playing the situation wrong. You dodge because you see the telegraph for a burst or know that a certain point in a rotation means a burst is coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuulpb.5412 Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > > > > UPDATE: They just nerfed necro Mobility by making the 25% movement speed ONLY above 75% on quickening thirst... WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT ANET SERIOUSLY? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They buffed it, I no longer have to carry a dagger or signet of the locust. The only time I had a dagger before was fractals, and the trait was superfluous there anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > How is it a buff to only have 25% movement speed above 75% health, when e.g. warrior gets it for ANY melee weapon at all times with a melee weapon. it means If you go below 75% health the bonus is gone. whereas before you could keep 25% while under 75%, sure you can now move faster out of combat, but in combat you're slower than before if you previously used the trait with dagger. > > > > > > > > > > If necro had perma superspeed it couldn't outrun a warrior in combat anyway. I can't always stay ahead of them on a three dodge daredevil, so I don't expect to on a necro. > > > > > > > > > > I'm mostly concerned about wvw, and having the move speed on a trait frees up a utility slot that will be more useful when drawn into combat. I may still not run it, but now it's a consideration I can make. > > > > > > > > > > In spvp it's even more useful, I can see the new version of the trait getting a lot more play. You're going to be fighting on a point or at full health running between points. > > > > > > > > in WvW and Pvp players can hit you for much more than 25% of your ma health in one hit, meaning You won't be able to escape them, ever. > > > > > > Well maybe you can't, but I have a lot of success in both game modes lowering my opponent's health to zero before mine. It is unrelated to the argument that you were making. > > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I know what a good burst from an enemy feels like. A little buildcraft and dodging goes a long way, though. > > > > My post was about lack of Anti-Stun, access to stability and mobility, lowering the duration of having mobility in combat either means you have to make sure you're healed, Hope your opponent tries bursting when you dodge, or just means if you get immobilised and hit, you can't run. > > If you're hoping they burst when you dodge, you're playing the situation wrong. You dodge because you see the telegraph for a burst or know that a certain point in a rotation means a burst is coming. "means a burst is coming" is you hoping it comes when it should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 You're not going to get any satisfaction by making these class comparions Kuulpb. It's irrelevant what warrior or a Revenant has when examining what Necro has. It's even more irrelevant when you do these comparisons incorrectly; you can't just cherry pick a class that does something really good and complain necro doesn't do it either. If you want to make relevant comparisons, at the very least, you have to compare all the classes for that element. Even then, it doesn't seem to me that's a compelling argument for change because it's these differences that define the classes from each other. If your just going buff every class so that they all have the same things, then choosing a class doesn't offer variation. The trait change is a good one IMO. We get choice, which we didn't have before; it's expensive to get RS buff from a skill ... less so from a trait at that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meri.9187 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 I have a solution for you. Get good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 I don't think necros should have mobility with reaper build, but they do need quite bit more sustain to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadBoiBunneh.9736 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 i don't know, reaper and scourge have decent survivability. i got pulled in to a blob in wvw by another necromancer and managed to escape alive as a scourge with trail of anguish and sand swell after fearing. it just depends how lucky you are and how skilled you are. > @"Axl.8924" said: > I don't think necros should have mobility with reaper build, but they do need quite bit more sustain to survive. > reapers have alot of mobility already, pop in to reaper shrould, cast Death's Charge and pop out, use mobility utility's. you can always use a warhorn also if you want for the locust swarm movement skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"BadBoiBunneh.9736" said: > reapers have alot of mobility already Relative to almost everything else they do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadBoiBunneh.9736 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"BadBoiBunneh.9736" said: > > reapers have alot of mobility already > > Relative to almost everything else they do not. > > in aspect of the swiftness boon that's true but if you use Spectral Walk you can out maneuver someone, just by using the second function of the skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuulpb.5412 Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > You're not going to get any satisfaction by making these class comparions Kuulpb. It's irrelevant what warrior or a Revenant has when examining what Necro has. It's even more irrelevant when you do these comparisons incorrectly; you can't just cherry pick a class that does something really good and complain necro doesn't do it either. If you want to make relevant comparisons, at the very least, you have to compare all the classes for that element. Even then, it doesn't seem to me that's a compelling argument for change because it's these differences that define the classes from each other. If your just going buff every class so that they all have the same things, then choosing a class doesn't offer variation. > > The trait change is a good one IMO. We get choice, which we didn't have before; it's expensive to get RS buff from a skill ... less so from a trait at that level. I argue it is bad because now it is a trait that gives movement speed above 75%, which in some fights has no effect, while also giving dagger skills 33% recharge above 75% (that effect is still buggy but not the point), it's a trait that affects daggers, and now affects daggers even less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuulpb.5412 Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"BadBoiBunneh.9736" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"BadBoiBunneh.9736" said: > > > reapers have alot of mobility already > > > > Relative to almost everything else they do not. > > > > > > in aspect of the swiftness boon that's true but if you use Spectral Walk you can out maneuver someone, just by using the second function of the skill. My point is, From my searching, necromancer has lowest benchmark in PvE raids of all professions, Lowest amount of Stability access, aside from Reaper, Revenant doesn't have "much"< however it has a Pulsing stability area, effectively meaning it COULD stand in an area of occasional CC, while a necromancer wouldn't be able to, granted Revenant has less SKILLS to access it, but overall can access more (2s initial 1.5s per tick for 5 ticks). People seem to be comparing Access to, to builds they use, I'm not arguing some builds are better or worse, I'm arguing OVERALL necromancer has Less Damage Potential, less mobility, Less Anti-Stun. you can't just "get good" to generate 10 stacks of stability from no-where, I'm talking about the fundamental mechanics of the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Stability has always been a problem for Necromancers since they changed from duration to stacks. And sure their anti-stun etc is really low. But that said Necro is still one of if not thee best power tanks in the game. It's hard to care about stuns and CC when even those times your character is disabled nothing can kill you XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuulpb.5412 Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Stability has always been a problem for Necromancers since they changed from duration to stacks. > And sure their anti-stun etc is really low. > > But that said Necro is still one of if not thee best power tanks in the game. > It's hard to care about stuns and CC when even those times your character is disabled nothing can kill you XD I am aware, but the game isn't fun IF you can't do anything and you're just a punching bag, Plus in places where the enemy CAN oneshot death shroud, or do massive this and you have no way to stop it because perma CC, then it's just like sitting still and having someone shoot you constantly. I believe the duration -> Stacks change was one of the downfalls of necromancers survivability in CC heavy areas, An Anecdotal example I have is, >! I was in I believe Elon riverlands, and there were 2 Ice Hydras , both with defiance bars, and I was a scourge (Meaning 15% damage reduction) Because I was unlucky enough to have 2 attack me at once and having almost no stability due to not being a reaper, I had to play Very cautiously, in the end however, because they launch (pulses) by breathing Ice, and launch (pulses) my charging you, Both at the same time I might add, I was unable to survive. This I feel is a downside of necromancers, they are sort of "built" to rely on Death shroud, but scourge doesn't HAVE death shroud (per se) meaning they are less tanky than core and reaper, because of my build, I only had 2 stunbreaks and 2 stability ( well of power and Trail of Anguish), with no real way to avoid CC chains. - I am aware this will make me sound like it's a fault with me, However Other people, apart from one person I met all agree that the duration to stacks on necro means they have very bad access to anti-stuns, one guy just said "get good" and pinged trail of Anguish, which as I stated, I had. The following is a Mini rant, as I cannot understand why GW2 seem to hate necromancers so much. >! I don't want to have to rely on other players for stability, or stunbreaks to NOT die in a game that GW2 stated can be played entirely solo or with a group. I know that each profession should have downsides, but having the least Damage potential of all professions, least mobility of all professions, and least stability of all professions, Is not, in my opinion, made up by being able to take damage easier than other professions, You can't even use trail of Anguish in the air meaning if you get launched by a sand shark you can't break CC. I constantly feel like they don't care about necromancers at all, with them only RECENTLY making Reaper be power damage, as when Reaper released, they constantly reduced reaper damage until it was a sub=par choice in raids for Condi, necros Basically only get 2 conditions, Bleed and Torment, Poison is a By-product of Sceptre, and corrosive poison cloud, but they can't stack it up like a ranger or Engineer can. Torment is easily stacked by Mesmer just auto attacking with sceptre, which I believe I've mentioned is just "better bleeding" as it's Bleed base damage, and 2x when target moves. Why is a necromancer Subpar in Condition damage, when it is what the entire idea of necromancer IS, hindering enemies with curses and suffering, Mesmers are meant to deceive and punish people for doing something (e.g. Confusion, or GW1's Empathy/backfire hexes), and Now mesmers have higher condition damage than the entire idea behind necromancer, And you can't argue "they removed hexes for GW2" as they could simply have made mirage have hexes as there is an NPC in the living season 3 who USE hexes. necromancer is constantly left in a box and just gets whatever trickles down, Revenants have a necromancer spite trait "Might gives more power less condi damage" >! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > Honestly i think you are being too drastic in comparison to other professions. You are matching traits to skills and skills to traits and thats never a good way to look at it. If you do that you will always name some of the worst things no one uses on necro and name some of the better tools of other professions. > > > > First off the one thing you did right was compare necro to only other scholar professions. At base it is a caster type and thus its tools should be some what similar or less of the other types. My reasoning for saying "lesser" comes down to the fact that shroud at a core perspective protects your hp and the other professions at base do not have this option. Instead they have boon spam and invulns or stealth. > > > > Honestly about the only thing you can hope they do is buff death magic its traits have potential and its minors can easily be replaced by just about any mechanic you can think off and they be better than they are now. > > > > I think anet has to be very careful about how they buff necro sustain because then it means currently necro can opt for building in a way that it does not require precision or toughness while still having high crit chance, crit damage, and being tanky as hell without the proper investment. Although if anet never plans to give necro hard defenses then this is not a bad way to offset that choice. Right now its kind of like they dont know which they want to do. > > It's not the fact "no-one uses it" it's "they have access to it, so can use it if they have to", necros cannot do this even if they wanted, and now thanks to the most recent patch they have even less mobility. Necromancer is a very tricky thing to handle because necro is naturally tanky by the way of its mechanics and design. It simply cant just be given more survivability without considering the effects that will drip down the lines through the elite specs. The recent patch done nothing to change mobility in a negative way lol. Im not sure where you are getting that idea from cause no movement skills got their cooldowns changed. Honestly I prefer the high damage high kill potential meta we have right now over the boon tank/support 1v3 me metas we use to have that are slowly being phased out. I would rather see death magic reworked in a way that it can provide better tools and mechanics to moderately improve sustain but not in such a drastic way that it causes everyone to feel like they HAVE TO USE it. The last thing we need is a necormancer that has high sustain, high damage, without having to invest in offensive stats and minimal defensive stats. That will lead to the biggest cry in the community that will take us 3 steps forward and 7 steps back some months later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuulpb.5412 Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > Honestly i think you are being too drastic in comparison to other professions. You are matching traits to skills and skills to traits and thats never a good way to look at it. If you do that you will always name some of the worst things no one uses on necro and name some of the better tools of other professions. > > > > > > First off the one thing you did right was compare necro to only other scholar professions. At base it is a caster type and thus its tools should be some what similar or less of the other types. My reasoning for saying "lesser" comes down to the fact that shroud at a core perspective protects your hp and the other professions at base do not have this option. Instead they have boon spam and invulns or stealth. > > > > > > Honestly about the only thing you can hope they do is buff death magic its traits have potential and its minors can easily be replaced by just about any mechanic you can think off and they be better than they are now. > > > > > > I think anet has to be very careful about how they buff necro sustain because then it means currently necro can opt for building in a way that it does not require precision or toughness while still having high crit chance, crit damage, and being tanky as hell without the proper investment. Although if anet never plans to give necro hard defenses then this is not a bad way to offset that choice. Right now its kind of like they dont know which they want to do. > > > > It's not the fact "no-one uses it" it's "they have access to it, so can use it if they have to", necros cannot do this even if they wanted, and now thanks to the most recent patch they have even less mobility. > > Necromancer is a very tricky thing to handle because necro is naturally tanky by the way of its mechanics and design. It simply cant just be given more survivability without considering the effects that will drip down the lines through the elite specs. > > The recent patch done nothing to change mobility in a negative way lol. Im not sure where you are getting that idea from cause no movement skills got their cooldowns changed. > > Honestly I prefer the high damage high kill potential meta we have right now over the boon tank/support 1v3 me metas we use to have that are slowly being phased out. I would rather see death magic reworked in a way that it can provide better tools and mechanics to moderately improve sustain but not in such a drastic way that it causes everyone to feel like they HAVE TO USE it. The last thing we need is a necormancer that has high sustain, high damage, without having to invest in offensive stats and minimal defensive stats. That will lead to the biggest cry in the community that will take us 3 steps forward and 7 steps back some months later. "Quickening Thirst " is a movement speed trait, 25% while above 75% health, Meaning in combat unless you are constantly above 75% you are stuck in fights whereas before you had 25% with dagger at all times. it's less combat mobility, paired with low stability and only Two dodges mean if someone can move 25% speed, or apply swiftness they can outrun you, if they hit you, they can outrun you. Edit: Necromancer does not have high damage, It has average to high tankiness depending on how much you are CCd, but the Damage is VERY sub par Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > Honestly i think you are being too drastic in comparison to other professions. You are matching traits to skills and skills to traits and thats never a good way to look at it. If you do that you will always name some of the worst things no one uses on necro and name some of the better tools of other professions. > > > > > > > > First off the one thing you did right was compare necro to only other scholar professions. At base it is a caster type and thus its tools should be some what similar or less of the other types. My reasoning for saying "lesser" comes down to the fact that shroud at a core perspective protects your hp and the other professions at base do not have this option. Instead they have boon spam and invulns or stealth. > > > > > > > > Honestly about the only thing you can hope they do is buff death magic its traits have potential and its minors can easily be replaced by just about any mechanic you can think off and they be better than they are now. > > > > > > > > I think anet has to be very careful about how they buff necro sustain because then it means currently necro can opt for building in a way that it does not require precision or toughness while still having high crit chance, crit damage, and being tanky as hell without the proper investment. Although if anet never plans to give necro hard defenses then this is not a bad way to offset that choice. Right now its kind of like they dont know which they want to do. > > > > > > It's not the fact "no-one uses it" it's "they have access to it, so can use it if they have to", necros cannot do this even if they wanted, and now thanks to the most recent patch they have even less mobility. > > > > Necromancer is a very tricky thing to handle because necro is naturally tanky by the way of its mechanics and design. It simply cant just be given more survivability without considering the effects that will drip down the lines through the elite specs. > > > > The recent patch done nothing to change mobility in a negative way lol. Im not sure where you are getting that idea from cause no movement skills got their cooldowns changed. > > > > Honestly I prefer the high damage high kill potential meta we have right now over the boon tank/support 1v3 me metas we use to have that are slowly being phased out. I would rather see death magic reworked in a way that it can provide better tools and mechanics to moderately improve sustain but not in such a drastic way that it causes everyone to feel like they HAVE TO USE it. The last thing we need is a necormancer that has high sustain, high damage, without having to invest in offensive stats and minimal defensive stats. That will lead to the biggest cry in the community that will take us 3 steps forward and 7 steps back some months later. > "Quickening Thirst " is a movement speed trait, 25% while above 75% health, Meaning in combat unless you are constantly above 75% you are stuck in fights whereas before you had 25% with dagger at all times. it's less combat mobility, paired with low stability and only Two dodges mean if someone can move 25% speed, or apply swiftness they can outrun you, if they hit you, they can outrun you. > > Edit: Necromancer does not have high damage, It has average to high tankiness depending on how much you are CCd, but the Damage is VERY sub par > So let me ask you this... With the previous trait what happens when you swap weapons or activate shroud (which is a weapon swap) did you still complain about the loss of speed under those conditions? If Yes then its the same thing now the condition is just different If No then ideal this is the same thing different stipulation. Honestly you are being so nit picky on this note thats not a real loss of mobility lol. Why dont you have swiftness? Locust signet? Speed of shadows? Runes that provide perma speed boost? Swiftness from party members? Did you even realistically run the dagger trait? specifically for movespeed? Even so if its average to high in tankyness why are you asking for improved sustain.... why cant you keep your hp above the 75% easily? There are some really conflicted things here. Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuulpb.5412 Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > Honestly i think you are being too drastic in comparison to other professions. You are matching traits to skills and skills to traits and thats never a good way to look at it. If you do that you will always name some of the worst things no one uses on necro and name some of the better tools of other professions. > > > > > > > > > > First off the one thing you did right was compare necro to only other scholar professions. At base it is a caster type and thus its tools should be some what similar or less of the other types. My reasoning for saying "lesser" comes down to the fact that shroud at a core perspective protects your hp and the other professions at base do not have this option. Instead they have boon spam and invulns or stealth. > > > > > > > > > > Honestly about the only thing you can hope they do is buff death magic its traits have potential and its minors can easily be replaced by just about any mechanic you can think off and they be better than they are now. > > > > > > > > > > I think anet has to be very careful about how they buff necro sustain because then it means currently necro can opt for building in a way that it does not require precision or toughness while still having high crit chance, crit damage, and being tanky as hell without the proper investment. Although if anet never plans to give necro hard defenses then this is not a bad way to offset that choice. Right now its kind of like they dont know which they want to do. > > > > > > > > It's not the fact "no-one uses it" it's "they have access to it, so can use it if they have to", necros cannot do this even if they wanted, and now thanks to the most recent patch they have even less mobility. > > > > > > Necromancer is a very tricky thing to handle because necro is naturally tanky by the way of its mechanics and design. It simply cant just be given more survivability without considering the effects that will drip down the lines through the elite specs. > > > > > > The recent patch done nothing to change mobility in a negative way lol. Im not sure where you are getting that idea from cause no movement skills got their cooldowns changed. > > > > > > Honestly I prefer the high damage high kill potential meta we have right now over the boon tank/support 1v3 me metas we use to have that are slowly being phased out. I would rather see death magic reworked in a way that it can provide better tools and mechanics to moderately improve sustain but not in such a drastic way that it causes everyone to feel like they HAVE TO USE it. The last thing we need is a necormancer that has high sustain, high damage, without having to invest in offensive stats and minimal defensive stats. That will lead to the biggest cry in the community that will take us 3 steps forward and 7 steps back some months later. > > "Quickening Thirst " is a movement speed trait, 25% while above 75% health, Meaning in combat unless you are constantly above 75% you are stuck in fights whereas before you had 25% with dagger at all times. it's less combat mobility, paired with low stability and only Two dodges mean if someone can move 25% speed, or apply swiftness they can outrun you, if they hit you, they can outrun you. > > > > Edit: Necromancer does not have high damage, It has average to high tankiness depending on how much you are CCd, but the Damage is VERY sub par > > > So let me ask you this... > With the previous trait what happens when you swap weapons or activate shroud (which is a weapon swap) did you still complain about the loss of speed under those conditions? > If Yes then its the same thing now the condition is just different > If No then ideal this is the same thing different stipulation. Honestly you are being so nit picky on this note thats not a real loss of mobility lol. > Why dont you have swiftness? > Locust signet? > Speed of shadows? > Runes that provide perma speed boost? > Swiftness from party members? > > Did you even realistically run the dagger trait? specifically for movespeed? Even so if its average to high in tankyness why are you asking for improved sustain.... why cant you keep your hp above the 75% easily? > > There are some really conflicted things here. Just saying... yes I ran the dagger trait as I like dagger due to life steal being one of the primary reasons I went to necromancer in the beginning, Regarding swiftness = Sure I can get swiftness from Trail of anguish for 6 seconds, Sure I can use Warhorn offhand, Sure I could use Speed of Shadows, But - taking speed of shadows hampers my Life force generation, They removed a Dagger requirement from a Dagger trait so now it's a weird functioning trait, I don't Use warhorn as I usually use focus to strip boons, I don't use a full set of Perma speed runes because - Why would I when I had a trait to move 25% faster constantly, I occasionally did swap out dagger for Scepter or Axe and took Signet of the Locust. But back to the point of this post = it was - Necromancer has VERY LOW Mobility, Stability/Anti-Stun and Damage, I pointed out a trait change that Previously let you run around 25% with dagger is either offhand or mainhand, meaning condition or power builds, Now it is above 75% so you either have to keep yourself above 75%, or go slower in combat, OR use a slot to take the place of a trait you used because you used it for BOTH benefits. I don't understand why people are unable to see why this is a nerf? You can get swiftness and movement speed form other places, yes, You also could get them form those places when the trait was dagger exclusive, Now it's above 75% which means you either take the trait, and suffer in combat, take the trait and use some other form of speed boost in combat such as trail of Anguish, Don't take the trait and stay slow, or don't take the trait and use some other form of speed boost. the Trait got Nerfed, that is a fact, You have more "variety" for only 25% of your health. as opposed to more Movement speed for 28.5% of the time ( based on Amount of Weapons necromancer has at base), an if in an elite spec, it's 25%, as it currently is. This is Clearly a nerf and yet No-one seems to see this, and I don't know why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff.5312 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 > Anyway, like the OP said, the crux of the issue is mainly the poor ability of the necromancer to face Hard CC, just like the crux of elementalist's issue is it's inability to create for himself windows of opportunity in order to dish out it's damages. Those are design flaws that are most likely willed by the developpers in order to create room for other professions to counter these 2 professions. So the 'problem' is that not all professions have identical skill sets. They're intended to foster different play styles. If every prof had abilities that equated to each of the abilities of other profs, there wouldn't be any reason to maintain professions at all. Just make skill trees that everyone has access to. Is that the kind of game desired here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuulpb.5412 Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"Biff.5312" said: > > > Anyway, like the OP said, the crux of the issue is mainly the poor ability of the necromancer to face Hard CC, just like the crux of elementalist's issue is it's inability to create for himself windows of opportunity in order to dish out it's damages. Those are design flaws that are most likely willed by the developpers in order to create room for other professions to counter these 2 professions. > > So the 'problem' is that not all professions have identical skill sets. They're intended to foster different play styles. If every prof had abilities that equated to each of the abilities of other profs, there wouldn't be any reason to maintain professions at all. Just make skill trees that everyone has access to. Is that the kind of game desired here? The issue is = necro isn't mobile, but it also isn't "Defensive on a point" because it can be pushed off extremely easily, What is necromancer's Role? it's not condi, it's not Power, it's not Unkillable and it's not Defend a point as those are things like, Mirage, Deadeye, Spellbreaker, Herald. By which I mean, Mirage can inflict stronger conditions than just bleeds at an astonishing rate, Deadeyes can Spike down people insanely quickly, Spellbreakers can be basically unkillable if they manage full counter and Heralds can Bunker in a spot on a point, I honestly just feel necromancers aren't in the right place at the moment, I've said why, you can argue why it's the way it is, but I still feel it, nothing has shown me otherwise yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuulpb.5412 Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 One Final Thing because I effectively let this post die: Mounts Exist, so out of combat movement speed isn't an issue ( in PvE ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > So let me ask you this... > With the previous trait what happens when you swap weapons or activate shroud (which is a weapon swap) did you still complain about the loss of speed under those conditions? As a dagger trait, it was beneficial to use dagger alongside the trait with combination of weapon such as D/Wh and Axe/D. Something that you don't seem to know is that the movement increase was kept when going into shroud while wielding a dagger (the shroud is not (yet) a weapon swap nor is it a kit, the shroud is a transformation). As someone that mainly use this trait with proper weaponset, I can say it, this is a nerf. Now, let's be honnest, there is little to no reason for someone to take the trait without planning to use dagger in it's weaponset like before nobody would have even looked at the trait without this intent. The issue with that rework is that it litterally cut your legs in situation where you need the movement speed while in combat. Out of combat it take little to no time to slot signet of locut for movement speed but in combat that's impossible. This is the problem and this is why it is a nerf not a "buff". It just cut off a bit more necromancer's in combat mobility which will make it easier for mobile professions to reset the fight than ever, because if you intend to depend on a trait for mobility you most likely won't invest in other utility to cover the loss of this mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > You're not going to get any satisfaction by making these class comparions Kuulpb. It's irrelevant what warrior or a Revenant has when examining what Necro has. It's even more irrelevant when you do these comparisons incorrectly; you can't just cherry pick a class that does something really good and complain necro doesn't do it either. If you want to make relevant comparisons, at the very least, you have to compare all the classes for that element. Even then, it doesn't seem to me that's a compelling argument for change because it's these differences that define the classes from each other. If your just going buff every class so that they all have the same things, then choosing a class doesn't offer variation. > > > > The trait change is a good one IMO. We get choice, which we didn't have before; it's expensive to get RS buff from a skill ... less so from a trait at that level. > > I argue it is bad because now it is a trait that gives movement speed above 75%, which in some fights has no effect, while also giving dagger skills 33% recharge above 75% (that effect is still buggy but not the point), it's a trait that affects daggers, and now affects daggers even less I don't get that statement. If you are above 75%, you get the buff ... that's in effect all the time. What fights is that 'no effect' in? Frankly, the RS because you wielded a dagger was kind of dumb in the first place. it's the reduced recharge that makes this good for daggers, not the RS (which you still have). In PVE, it's irrevelant, in WvW/PVP, you have RS when you need it; it's not as useful once you get into a fight as perceived. I think the condition on the RS is odd, but I get it because of the theme of the traitline. it seems to me that your overall complain is the class theme. That's not going to change. Necro has always had a small but effective set of mobility tools and if you want them, you do have to choose from some other good high damage choices/effects. It's simply the result of how it plays, determined by Anet, because of the other good things it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Last night I tried this trait on support condi scourge, of all things. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBmWD7koXopXsrXw7GgtXsEMY631+6gdaGUByBRJtAQEA-e This was to see how much value it had without dagger. I also traded staff for scepter / focus and tried to solo events and champs in Kourna. Not saying it was good or bad but I already think the trait should add 1 short bleed on every weapon's crit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arzurag.7506 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Necro doesn't have sufficient mobility/sustain, nor will the class get those things anytime soon. My hopes are all in GW3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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