Airdive.2613 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying. > > > > > > Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up. > > > > > > Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point. > > > > Varying power and precision is absolutely pointless for the reason stated several times now: every individual weapon skill in the game already has a different damage coefficient (scales differently with the same amount of power points) and it is impossible to have, for example, blurred frenzy or kill shot or meteor shower in your build unless you're playing mesmer, warrior, or elementalist, respectively. > > The thing about the different skill the coefficient will keep getting changed to put each class dps on part with other classes in both pve and pvp. Its what anet has keeped doing and seem to keep at it. In the short run yes we see high spike dmg from skill but in time they become normalized but a full roll defining ones. Sadly this has nothing to do with there hp / def so we end up with classes that have good tank hp / def doing high dmg on the same lines of classes with bad tank hp / def. > > In a way i am trying to say the hp set up from class to class is not working well and should be normalized to being the same much like how power / precision is but there always the chose to have power / precision to vary as well but with a much harder to balance out come. Well, the system is working perfectly well in my opinion. You must see the bigger picture and realize the HP and armor has no bearing on any profession's output, it is just a point in designing professions, they are already very much balanced. > At the same time coefficient only going to go as far as the skills we have now this dose not help the skills we may have down the line. One hopes a ranged dmg spec will have good coefficient but if its an high hp / def class your going to have a high dmg class with high hp / def at a ranged something that would be beyond toxic to the games balancing. The skills we may have in the future will all have their own damage coefficients with every other thing considered, obviously, so I fail to see the issue. > I hope they do add in a ranged dps spec for all classes its not just to keep this type of game play from any class and we all should want this the play as you wish mind set and how fun it is to be able to do such a thing on a class you enjoy. So there needs to be balancing with this mind set. You're free to "play how you want" right now, nobody is forcing you to do anything. > Your skills you pointed out have all been nerf in dmg a good bit and brought in line with others skills with out any though to hp / def of that class. Its the truth of balancing in games every one going to do the same dmg in time. Some times it takes longer. The truth is pure damage only exists in a vacuum where there is no utility, no control, no blocks/evades/healing, no positioning. So far at least two of the lowest health professions have been doing perfectly fine - guardians and thieves are not underperforming by any means. The same goes for mesmers and necromancers - lowest armor ones. So, if this is a "please buff elementalist" thread, then please come out and say so. This thread has been unwarranted so far as there is currently no issue to be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > I seem to have to keep repeating my self vs 2 ppl at once so let me leave with this ideal that i keep saying. > > Hp / def class variation with out power / precision changing and its a problem now and will be a problem down the line. This needs to be fixed ... If it seems that the counters to the way you phrase the problem you think exists are repeating, it's because you keep restating your initial take on the "problem." Your "take" is coming across as your wanting to consider the balancing factors of Damage vs Defense and Health in a vacuum. Several posters have countered this by saying that there are other factors that make up balance, and that one cannot isolate 2 or 3 factors and ignore the rest. Your response to those counters is to restate your initial premise, which means you are ignoring those counters. Of course people are going to disagree, because you are still ignoring those other factors. > ... my suggestion is to have power / precision vary with the classes OR you standardized every things to let devs twerk the numbers as needed to make a class less op or up. > > Any thing else is just pointless nose trying to confuse the point. Others points are only "noise" because you persist in defining the problem that _you_ see in narrow terms. > @"Jski.6180" said: > > They have more hp by your own words how is that not an advantage? If you'll bear with me, saying that having more Health (or Defense) is an advantage, you're also saying that having _less_ Health or Defense is a _disadvantage_. The main counter to that point is that active defenses like block/dodge and distractions like stealth/clones make both Health and Defense irrelevant. If attacks are avoided by any means, having a fraction less Defense (and it really is a fraction) or even a large amount of extra health makes no difference. What it comes down to is that -- for the most part -- there are professions which you see as disadvantaged that have compensating advantages you are ignoring. Ignoring the broad picture is not a good way to define a problem if your solution to the problem is to propose a broad solution, which is what normalization of Health and Defense would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 Airdive.2613 Then this should not be important to you if hp / def means nothing lol. We need other players to do things that is part of the game and thoughs other ppl will try to play what they feel is the best each class will have more eleit spec. and it will hit all type of game play so it will be a problem. Safe dmg and high hp / def is very important when it comes to balancing. Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. Agen your trying to fix in game balancing with gear and that not a good way of balancing. @ IndigoSundown.5419 Back to the 2 ppl i see this should be "fun." Most of the classes in gw2 have some level of def skill these skills are not base off of hp / def at all so you have high hp classes with high def skill and over time they are adding in elite spec who do have such def skill with out any balancing of hp/def in mind. Its the same problem with dps classes having too much hp / def but in a def way. My points are made i yet to see a reason why its ok for some classes to have more hp / def the others when they will all get the same effects with just different animations in time. Why is it ok for different classes to have different hp / def but its not ok for them to have different power / precision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > Sadly this has nothing to do with there hp / def so we end up with classes that have good tank hp / def doing high dmg on the same lines of classes with bad tank hp / def. > > Your argument falls flat, a thief has low hp and medium armor and deal the highest dps in all game modes. Further, despite their low hp they are some of the hardest to kill too, thanks to their stealth and evades. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > Sadly this has nothing to do with there hp / def so we end up with classes that have good tank hp / def doing high dmg on the same lines of classes with bad tank hp / def. > > Your argument falls flat, a thief has low hp and medium armor and deal the highest dps in all game modes. Further, despite their low hp they are some of the hardest to kill too, thanks to their stealth and evades. A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. they added in its a mid armor class with def skill to make up for the lost of hp as a core class but then it gets an over done def skill. We now have 2 builds one that is endless evasion dmg at melee and the other endless stealth at a long ranged. In a way the balancing of hp / def is being a factor for the devs. to over think what the class needs. Mind you not every class is this way yet. By not having hp / def standardized we see bad chose to deal with it or comply forgotten. Are we ok with high hp / def classes never getting ranged dps and the current ranged dps builds getting nerfed into the ground from the other side of the point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > @"Jski.6180" said: > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. > > When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. > > Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. > > All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. > > You can't be kitten serious. Guardian has to run full tank gear? Every class runs full tank gear In WvW and none do so in PvE for survival purposes. You've been provided multiple endgame builds and explanations that your assumptions are plain incorrect. You are simply an open world player who is out of touch with the game, have not played any challenging content and do not seem to grasp that people telling you that you are incorrect actually have way more experience then you at this game. If you are running full tank gear on your guardian and need this gear to survive, that's an absolute you issue. It definately is not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diak Atoli.2085 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. > > When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. > > Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. > > All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. > > I honestly have no idea where you get 'Guardian needs to run full tank gear' from. If anything, a Guardian has some of the most survivable DPS builds available when using straight Berserker's. To clarify, this is with respect to PvE. I do not play sPvP or WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > > > > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > > > > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > > > > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. > > > > When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. > > > > Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. > > > > All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. > > > > > > You can't be kitten serious. Guardian has to run full tank gear? Every class runs full tank gear In WvW and none do so in PvE for survival purposes. > > You've been provided multiple endgame builds and explanations that your assumptions are plain incorrect. > > You are simply an open world player who is out of touch with the game, have not played any challenging content and do not seem to grasp that people telling you that you are incorrect actually have way more experience then you at this game. > > If you are running full tank gear on your guardian and need this gear to survive, that's an absolute you issue. It definately is not needed. That the point i am getting at you need hp / def to be tankly its not just skills that are letting you live. Most ranged classes cant run tankly because dmg is soo important but the lower hp classes must run tankly gear on some level to simply live though passive dmg giving up power. Its a question is vit / def important if so then there needs to be a reward for the risk if no then there no risk. Are classes at more risk with lower hp / def or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 So..I run full zerker(or any high dps) gear in WvW, on all my characters including my Ele(up until the recent nerfs removed its damage on staff and killed my enjoyment) and i do just fine both in 1v1s and in Zergs(not joining a squad.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > > > > > > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > > > > > > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > > > > > > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. > > > > > > When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. > > > > > > Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. > > > > > > All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. > > > > > > > > > > You can't be kitten serious. Guardian has to run full tank gear? Every class runs full tank gear In WvW and none do so in PvE for survival purposes. > > > > You've been provided multiple endgame builds and explanations that your assumptions are plain incorrect. > > > > You are simply an open world player who is out of touch with the game, have not played any challenging content and do not seem to grasp that people telling you that you are incorrect actually have way more experience then you at this game. > > > > If you are running full tank gear on your guardian and need this gear to survive, that's an absolute you issue. It definately is not needed. > > That the point i am getting at you need hp / def to be tankly its not just skills that are letting you live. Most ranged classes cant run tankly because dmg is soo important but the lower hp classes must run tankly gear on some level to simply live though passive dmg giving up power. > > Its a question is vit / def important if so then there needs to be a reward for the risk if no then there no risk. Are classes at more risk with lower hp / def or not? and you are incorrect on this assumption. Nothing what you said right here is true or valid. Literally nothing. This was pointed out by now multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple different ways. I'm not sure how much clearer people can get. Here: I am at 800+ LI, have 3 legendary armors (aka the Herald's Envoy Title), 14+ ascended armors, multiple fully ascended geared characters of every class, clears on all Wing 1-5 Bosses and half of Wing 6, significant amount of play time in WvW, run Tier 4 fractals regularly and complete the CM99 and CM100 with no issues. You are wrong! Was that clear enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > > > > > > > > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. > > > > > > > > When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. > > > > > > > > Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. > > > > > > > > All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't be kitten serious. Guardian has to run full tank gear? Every class runs full tank gear In WvW and none do so in PvE for survival purposes. > > > > > > You've been provided multiple endgame builds and explanations that your assumptions are plain incorrect. > > > > > > You are simply an open world player who is out of touch with the game, have not played any challenging content and do not seem to grasp that people telling you that you are incorrect actually have way more experience then you at this game. > > > > > > If you are running full tank gear on your guardian and need this gear to survive, that's an absolute you issue. It definately is not needed. > > > > That the point i am getting at you need hp / def to be tankly its not just skills that are letting you live. Most ranged classes cant run tankly because dmg is soo important but the lower hp classes must run tankly gear on some level to simply live though passive dmg giving up power. > > > > Its a question is vit / def important if so then there needs to be a reward for the risk if no then there no risk. Are classes at more risk with lower hp / def or not? > > and you are incorrect on this assumption. Nothing what you said right here is true or valid. Literally nothing. This was pointed out by now multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple different ways. I'm not sure how much clearer people can get. > > Here: > I am at 800+ LI, have 3 legendary armors (aka the Herald's Envoy Title), 14+ ascended armors, multiple fully ascended geared characters of every class, clears on all Wing 1-5 Bosses and half of Wing 6, significant amount of play time in WvW, run Tier 4 fractals regularly and complete the CM99 and CM100 with no issues. > > You are wrong! > > Was that clear enough? If nothing is attking you then your hp / def means nothing its not a good point of balancing then. If you are getting hit then hp / def is important and the way classes are setup some are better then others because of this. If pve realty is just hitting a blind mob who will only attk your tank is that realty playing a video game or just pressing button vs an hp bar? > @"Dante.1763" said: > So..I run full zerker(or any high dps) gear in WvW, on all my characters including my Ele(up until the recent nerfs removed its damage on staff and killed my enjoyment) and i do just fine both in 1v1s and in Zergs(not joining a squad.). 11k hp builds are fun but more then like your 13k due to hp from weaver but even then your going to take so much dmg from retalation with out a pocke healer your never going to get a full combo off. A class should not NEED a support to do dmg they should only need support to enhance it or stay alive though other ppl dmg. 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Cyninja.2954 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. > > > > > > > > > > When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. > > > > > > > > > > Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. > > > > > > > > > > All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't be kitten serious. Guardian has to run full tank gear? Every class runs full tank gear In WvW and none do so in PvE for survival purposes. > > > > > > > > You've been provided multiple endgame builds and explanations that your assumptions are plain incorrect. > > > > > > > > You are simply an open world player who is out of touch with the game, have not played any challenging content and do not seem to grasp that people telling you that you are incorrect actually have way more experience then you at this game. > > > > > > > > If you are running full tank gear on your guardian and need this gear to survive, that's an absolute you issue. It definately is not needed. > > > > > > That the point i am getting at you need hp / def to be tankly its not just skills that are letting you live. Most ranged classes cant run tankly because dmg is soo important but the lower hp classes must run tankly gear on some level to simply live though passive dmg giving up power. > > > > > > Its a question is vit / def important if so then there needs to be a reward for the risk if no then there no risk. Are classes at more risk with lower hp / def or not? > > > > and you are incorrect on this assumption. Nothing what you said right here is true or valid. Literally nothing. This was pointed out by now multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple different ways. I'm not sure how much clearer people can get. > > > > Here: > > I am at 800+ LI, have 3 legendary armors (aka the Herald's Envoy Title), 14+ ascended armors, multiple fully ascended geared characters of every class, clears on all Wing 1-5 Bosses and half of Wing 6, significant amount of play time in WvW, run Tier 4 fractals regularly and complete the CM99 and CM100 with no issues. > > > > You are wrong! > > > > Was that clear enough? > > If nothing is attking you then your hp / def means nothing its not a good point of balancing then. If you are getting hit then hp / def is important and the way classes are setup some are better then others because of this. > > If pve realty is just hitting a blind mob who will only attk your tank is that realty playing a video game or just pressing button vs an hp bar? > Honestly, we are going in circles. You either lack reading comprehension or just want to ignore what people have been saying. HP and defense mean little in this game. You would know this if you ever actually did some calculations as to how much toughness is valuable as damage reduction (hint: not a lot). The same goes for pure hit point totals when viewed separately of all other damage mitigation. The most effective defense in this game is always active based (and has been since the games launch), meaning using skills and abilities. This is evident as say the protection boon which reduces direct damage by 33%, resistance which negates all condition damage, dodge which provides immunity frames, blocks which provide block frames, etc. The benefits of increased hit points and increased armor are NEGLIGIBLE compared to class mechanics and active defenses. This is reflected in current and past builds and itemization for builds. If you can not fathom this, there is no helping you. You have been wrong about what people use, which classes are "great", about basic things like front-, mid and backline in WvW, reasons why certain builds run what gear. You basically have been repeating nonstop your personal idea of what you think to be true, while not managing to understand that people have been explaining to you that you are wrong. Feel free to not understand, I honestly don't care any longer. Feel free to not understand the game as much as you want, meanwhile people who actually do will build their characters in a proper way and optimize their builds for tasks required. I doubt Arenanet would in any way take any of your concerns seriously if you can't even understand basic class balance mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't be kitten serious. Guardian has to run full tank gear? Every class runs full tank gear In WvW and none do so in PvE for survival purposes. > > > > > > > > > > You've been provided multiple endgame builds and explanations that your assumptions are plain incorrect. > > > > > > > > > > You are simply an open world player who is out of touch with the game, have not played any challenging content and do not seem to grasp that people telling you that you are incorrect actually have way more experience then you at this game. > > > > > > > > > > If you are running full tank gear on your guardian and need this gear to survive, that's an absolute you issue. It definately is not needed. > > > > > > > > That the point i am getting at you need hp / def to be tankly its not just skills that are letting you live. Most ranged classes cant run tankly because dmg is soo important but the lower hp classes must run tankly gear on some level to simply live though passive dmg giving up power. > > > > > > > > Its a question is vit / def important if so then there needs to be a reward for the risk if no then there no risk. Are classes at more risk with lower hp / def or not? > > > > > > and you are incorrect on this assumption. Nothing what you said right here is true or valid. Literally nothing. This was pointed out by now multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple different ways. I'm not sure how much clearer people can get. > > > > > > Here: > > > I am at 800+ LI, have 3 legendary armors (aka the Herald's Envoy Title), 14+ ascended armors, multiple fully ascended geared characters of every class, clears on all Wing 1-5 Bosses and half of Wing 6, significant amount of play time in WvW, run Tier 4 fractals regularly and complete the CM99 and CM100 with no issues. > > > > > > You are wrong! > > > > > > Was that clear enough? > > > > If nothing is attking you then your hp / def means nothing its not a good point of balancing then. If you are getting hit then hp / def is important and the way classes are setup some are better then others because of this. > > > > If pve realty is just hitting a blind mob who will only attk your tank is that realty playing a video game or just pressing button vs an hp bar? > > > > Honestly, we are going in circles. You either lack reading comprehension or just want to ignore what people have been saying. > > HP and defense mean little in this game. You would know this if you ever actually did some calculations as to how much toughness is valuable as damage reduction (hint: not a lot). The same goes for pure hit point totals when viewed separately of all other damage mitigation. > > The most effective defense in this game is always active based (and has been since the games launch), meaning using skills and abilities. This is evident as say the protection boon which reduces direct damage by 33%, resistance which negates all condition damage, dodge which provides immunity frames, blocks which provide block frames, etc. > > The benefits of increased hit points and increased armor are NEGLIGIBLE compared to class mechanics and active defenses. This is reflected in current and past builds and itemization for builds. If you can not fathom this, there is no helping you. > > You have been wrong about what people use, which classes are "great", about basic things like front-, mid and backline in WvW, reasons why certain builds run what gear. You basically have been repeating nonstop your personal idea of what you think to be true, while not managing to understand that people have been explaining to you that you are wrong. > > Feel free to not understand, I honestly don't care any longer. Feel free to not understand the game as much as you want, meanwhile people who actually do will build their characters in a proper way and optimize their builds for tasks required. I doubt Arenanet would in any way take any of your concerns seriously if you can't even understand basic class balance mechanics. I understand what your saying its just all classes have these effects on top of having high base hp / def it all adds up. In time they will have more effects like this as they add in elite spec. Weaver is a good example of this it has a lot more hp and def skill then the core ele its ok on that class due to low hp / def but on other classes like war you have high base hp and def on-top of high def effect on spell braker making it into something significantly stronger then core war. That the problem the core classes are balanced base off of the old hp / def but the elite spec are not its just a question of are you melee or ranged and we see over buffing of def skill because of melee and over buffing of dmg skill because of ranged. Both witch causes classes to be impossible to kill AND do too much one shot dmg. The only way to make the elite spec. system to work is to have hp / def vary on the spec. OR you standardized every thing making it significantly easier to balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't be kitten serious. Guardian has to run full tank gear? Every class runs full tank gear In WvW and none do so in PvE for survival purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > You've been provided multiple endgame builds and explanations that your assumptions are plain incorrect. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are simply an open world player who is out of touch with the game, have not played any challenging content and do not seem to grasp that people telling you that you are incorrect actually have way more experience then you at this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are running full tank gear on your guardian and need this gear to survive, that's an absolute you issue. It definately is not needed. > > > > > > > > > > That the point i am getting at you need hp / def to be tankly its not just skills that are letting you live. Most ranged classes cant run tankly because dmg is soo important but the lower hp classes must run tankly gear on some level to simply live though passive dmg giving up power. > > > > > > > > > > Its a question is vit / def important if so then there needs to be a reward for the risk if no then there no risk. Are classes at more risk with lower hp / def or not? > > > > > > > > and you are incorrect on this assumption. Nothing what you said right here is true or valid. Literally nothing. This was pointed out by now multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple different ways. I'm not sure how much clearer people can get. > > > > > > > > Here: > > > > I am at 800+ LI, have 3 legendary armors (aka the Herald's Envoy Title), 14+ ascended armors, multiple fully ascended geared characters of every class, clears on all Wing 1-5 Bosses and half of Wing 6, significant amount of play time in WvW, run Tier 4 fractals regularly and complete the CM99 and CM100 with no issues. > > > > > > > > You are wrong! > > > > > > > > Was that clear enough? > > > > > > If nothing is attking you then your hp / def means nothing its not a good point of balancing then. If you are getting hit then hp / def is important and the way classes are setup some are better then others because of this. > > > > > > If pve realty is just hitting a blind mob who will only attk your tank is that realty playing a video game or just pressing button vs an hp bar? > > > > > > > Honestly, we are going in circles. You either lack reading comprehension or just want to ignore what people have been saying. > > > > HP and defense mean little in this game. You would know this if you ever actually did some calculations as to how much toughness is valuable as damage reduction (hint: not a lot). The same goes for pure hit point totals when viewed separately of all other damage mitigation. > > > > The most effective defense in this game is always active based (and has been since the games launch), meaning using skills and abilities. This is evident as say the protection boon which reduces direct damage by 33%, resistance which negates all condition damage, dodge which provides immunity frames, blocks which provide block frames, etc. > > > > The benefits of increased hit points and increased armor are NEGLIGIBLE compared to class mechanics and active defenses. This is reflected in current and past builds and itemization for builds. If you can not fathom this, there is no helping you. > > > > You have been wrong about what people use, which classes are "great", about basic things like front-, mid and backline in WvW, reasons why certain builds run what gear. You basically have been repeating nonstop your personal idea of what you think to be true, while not managing to understand that people have been explaining to you that you are wrong. > > > > Feel free to not understand, I honestly don't care any longer. Feel free to not understand the game as much as you want, meanwhile people who actually do will build their characters in a proper way and optimize their builds for tasks required. I doubt Arenanet would in any way take any of your concerns seriously if you can't even understand basic class balance mechanics. > > I understand what your saying its just all classes have these effects on top of having high base hp / def it all adds up. In time they will have more effects like this as they add in elite spec. Weaver is a good example of this it has a lot more hp and def skill then the core ele its ok on that class due to low hp / def but on other classes like war you have high base hp and def on-top of high def effect on spell braker making it into something significantly stronger then core war. > Core builds are not a concern. They have not been since HoT. If you want to argue that core builds need to remain relevant, you need to start at way other issues than hit point pools and armor values. That is an entire different debate and as mentioned, not even relevant because Arenanet has been very clear that they do not balance around core builds at all. If you want to argue that core builds should remain relevant, good luck. You will have to address way more concerning issues like skill, ability and coefficient imbalance before you even remotely get close to argue hit points and armor. Weaver was the go-to top damage dealer for a majority of PoF (after Scourge and Firebrand were bugfixed and nerfed 1 week into PoFs launch) until it got recently nerfed. Tempest was the most powerful damage dealer AND healing build in game for the entire HoT cycle. It remains the strongest healer in game to this date. I'm not sure where you are getting this warrior have an advantage mentality. Class balance saw to that. > @"Jski.6180" said: > That the problem the core classes are balanced base off of the old hp / def but the elite spec are not its just a question of are you melee or ranged and we see over buffing of def skill because of melee and over buffing of dmg skill because of ranged. Both witch causes classes to be impossible to kill AND do too much one shot dmg. The only way to make the elite spec. system to work is to have hp / def vary on the spec. OR you standardized every thing making it significantly easier to balance. Elite specializations are not additive, they are separate from each other and as long as Arenanet keep elite specializations contained within their build, this is not an issue. For example, chrono is one of the tankiest elite specializations yet was released with HoT. You assume that Arenanet is creating elite specializations without keeping in mind how classes behave or what their core roles are. That is incorrect. Even the most intrusive redesigns (Scourge, Mirage, Deadeye for example) have always stuck to the classes unique function and built off of that. The elite specialization system has worked so far with 2 elite specializations per class, there is no reason to believe it will not in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @Cyninja.2954 The core classes where balanced with the current hp / def system the elite spec. are not that what i am trying to get at. In time its only going to get worst. Rev dose top dps now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @Cyninja.2954 > The core classes where balanced with the current hp / def system the elite spec. are not that what i am trying to get at. In time its only going to get worst. > > Rev dose top dps now. and you are incorrect about this assumption, for the x-th time. Nothing supports this claim, neither the itemization nor the mechanics. No, revenant is not top dps: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ It's close to top on large hit boxes and no where near top on small ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I got better suggestion remove stats change all skills to do same things but slightly diffrent animations so we can have class as cosmetic wich in turn makes game easy to balance since all have sorta same skills and make hp and amor same make amor class only decide apearance nothing else its 100%fair and would make game fun and enjoyable and return promises of no trinity and meta builds would be gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @Cyninja.2954 > > The core classes where balanced with the current hp / def system the elite spec. are not that what i am trying to get at. In time its only going to get worst. > > > > Rev dose top dps now. > > and you are incorrect about this assumption, for the x-th time. Nothing supports this claim, neither the itemization nor the mechanics. > > No, revenant is not top dps: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/ > > It's close to top on large hit boxes and no where near top on small ones. They where very close to being balanced base off of hp / def and there was a lot less overlap of def effects skills. Protection power creep to classes is a good example of this core ele use to be the best protection boon class now its something every one has and can put it out in a perma amount. Protection up time is for lower hp classes but now its on the high hp classes making them much more tankly then they should be. This is all from elite spec. > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > I got better suggestion remove stats change all skills to do same things but slightly diffrent animations so we can have class as cosmetic wich in turn makes game easy to balance since all have sorta same skills and make hp and amor same make amor class only decide apearance nothing else its 100%fair and would make game fun and enjoyable and return promises of no trinity and meta builds would be gone I dont think hyperbole not going to help here. Right now power / precision dose not differ from class to class making it a lot easier to balance with out taking away from a class hp / def would not be that one thing to make a class less of a class. If base hp is not as important then it should be no problem to standardize add a lot more room for classes and elite spec to be more different from each other with out braking the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > Right now power / precision dose not differ from class to class making it a lot easier to balance with out taking away from a class hp / def would not be that one thing to make a class less of a class. If base hp is not as important then it should be no problem to standardize add a lot more room for classes and elite spec to be more different from each other with out braking the class. There are still glaring flaws in your reasoning. Listing just some of them. 1. Right back at the original topic: the power damage output **is** very much different between different professions, so why on Tyria should health pools and armor classes be equalized? 2. Base health is not important because you're expected to make full use of the available resources. A lot of different resources, not just your innate health and armor rating. Not every profession is equally good at standing AFK during combat, but them's the breaks, we want more different playstyles, not less. 3. Standardizing base health is clearly going to *decrease* build diversity while possibly breaking some professions (either thieves/mesmers or thieves/guardians/elementalists). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > Thf is underperforming due to its low hp in some game plays to where it only viable in highly novel game play. As well guardian only working when you do go all in def where it should be able to depent on its def alone to make up for its lack of hp but burst dmg is so high that no amount of dmg -% is letting them live though attks so they must build def. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know where you get this about Thief and Guardian needing to build for defense, because in reality they don't. They are both competitive compared to Necromancer and Warrior even though they have less health/armor, someone could argue that they are better. Neither Thief nor Guardian must build for defense to compete with the other builds I don't know what you are on about here. The only profession that must spec for defense to compete is the Elementalist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > A lot of ppl would say its broken because of the elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Core Thief was nerfed with the Specialization update before the release of Heart of Thorns. That's because Acrobatics and Daredevil trait lines both focused on evasion, so they reduced the Acrobatics line to make Daredevil the new king of evasion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are probably the only person on these forums that ever asked for Thieves to get more damage (!!!) and to get more health (!!!). It's the first time I've ever read about it in 6 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When it comes to real gw2 game play where you must deal with taking dmg and doing dmg real risk rewards pve realty not that way is where thf tends to underperform. You just cant pick like you use to there too much aoe every thing to deal with. In 1v1 thf still good but this game is not balnced for 1 v1 so.. novel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guardian needs to run full tank gear most of the time it just happens that the tank gear helps them support as well. Ele needs a way to react to the un-reactable when it comes to def OR enofe vit to not be one shot by any thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All core classes where nerf when they added in the specialization in the thing is the new spec. often over did effects due to low hp but did not get over done due to high hp. If the class was going into melee as a low hp class it got a lot of added effect to broken levels but if that class had high hp it did not loses dmg because of it from there new spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't be kitten serious. Guardian has to run full tank gear? Every class runs full tank gear In WvW and none do so in PvE for survival purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > You've been provided multiple endgame builds and explanations that your assumptions are plain incorrect. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are simply an open world player who is out of touch with the game, have not played any challenging content and do not seem to grasp that people telling you that you are incorrect actually have way more experience then you at this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are running full tank gear on your guardian and need this gear to survive, that's an absolute you issue. It definately is not needed. > > > > > > > > > > That the point i am getting at you need hp / def to be tankly its not just skills that are letting you live. Most ranged classes cant run tankly because dmg is soo important but the lower hp classes must run tankly gear on some level to simply live though passive dmg giving up power. > > > > > > > > > > Its a question is vit / def important if so then there needs to be a reward for the risk if no then there no risk. Are classes at more risk with lower hp / def or not? > > > > > > > > and you are incorrect on this assumption. Nothing what you said right here is true or valid. Literally nothing. This was pointed out by now multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple different ways. I'm not sure how much clearer people can get. > > > > > > > > Here: > > > > I am at 800+ LI, have 3 legendary armors (aka the Herald's Envoy Title), 14+ ascended armors, multiple fully ascended geared characters of every class, clears on all Wing 1-5 Bosses and half of Wing 6, significant amount of play time in WvW, run Tier 4 fractals regularly and complete the CM99 and CM100 with no issues. > > > > > > > > You are wrong! > > > > > > > > Was that clear enough? > > > > > > If nothing is attking you then your hp / def means nothing its not a good point of balancing then. If you are getting hit then hp / def is important and the way classes are setup some are better then others because of this. > > > > > > If pve realty is just hitting a blind mob who will only attk your tank is that realty playing a video game or just pressing button vs an hp bar? > > > > > > > Honestly, we are going in circles. You either lack reading comprehension or just want to ignore what people have been saying. > > > > HP and defense mean little in this game. You would know this if you ever actually did some calculations as to how much toughness is valuable as damage reduction (hint: not a lot). The same goes for pure hit point totals when viewed separately of all other damage mitigation. > > > > The most effective defense in this game is always active based (and has been since the games launch), meaning using skills and abilities. This is evident as say the protection boon which reduces direct damage by 33%, resistance which negates all condition damage, dodge which provides immunity frames, blocks which provide block frames, etc. > > > > The benefits of increased hit points and increased armor are NEGLIGIBLE compared to class mechanics and active defenses. This is reflected in current and past builds and itemization for builds. If you can not fathom this, there is no helping you. > > > > You have been wrong about what people use, which classes are "great", about basic things like front-, mid and backline in WvW, reasons why certain builds run what gear. You basically have been repeating nonstop your personal idea of what you think to be true, while not managing to understand that people have been explaining to you that you are wrong. > > > > Feel free to not understand, I honestly don't care any longer. Feel free to not understand the game as much as you want, meanwhile people who actually do will build their characters in a proper way and optimize their builds for tasks required. I doubt Arenanet would in any way take any of your concerns seriously if you can't even understand basic class balance mechanics. > > I understand what your saying its just all classes have these effects on top of having high base hp / def it all adds up. In time they will have more effects like this as they add in elite spec. Weaver is a good example of this it has a lot more hp and def skill then the core ele its ok on that class due to low hp / def but on other classes like war you have high base hp and def on-top of high def effect on spell braker making it into something significantly stronger then core war. > > That the problem the core classes are balanced base off of the old hp / def but the elite spec are not its just a question of are you melee or ranged and we see over buffing of def skill because of melee and over buffing of dmg skill because of ranged. Both witch causes classes to be impossible to kill AND do too much one shot dmg. The only way to make the elite spec. system to work is to have hp / def vary on the spec. OR you standardized every thing making it significantly easier to balance. Have you seen the scourge elite spec for necromancer they took away the second lifebar so a chunk for their defence. You dont think they can make a vampire warrior that have to sacrifice life for its attacks for example as a heavy damage dealer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > Right now power / precision dose not differ from class to class making it a lot easier to balance with out taking away from a class hp / def would not be that one thing to make a class less of a class. If base hp is not as important then it should be no problem to standardize add a lot more room for classes and elite spec to be more different from each other with out braking the class. > > There are still glaring flaws in your reasoning. Listing just some of them. > 1. Right back at the original topic: the power damage output **is** very much different between different professions, so why on Tyria should health pools and armor classes be equalized? > 2. Base health is not important because you're expected to make full use of the available resources. A lot of different resources, not just your innate health and armor rating. Not every profession is equally good at standing AFK during combat, but them's the breaks, we want more different playstyles, not less. > 3. Standardizing base health is clearly going to *decrease* build diversity while possibly breaking some professions (either thieves/mesmers or thieves/guardians/elementalists). It dose but only because of the class and how they must build. Though all dps class will do the same dmg in time. Base health is very important for not getting one shot. If your playing a class because of its base health only then your playing the class for the wrong reason. @Linken.6345 I think they could add that in but i would think life force effect for war would be a better tool there not realy any give up hp to do things in this game it may just not fit. The fear is that they add in a war class who dose fast ranged attks and you have an unkillable ranged dps who will comply dominate with out putting it self in any risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > Right now power / precision dose not differ from class to class making it a lot easier to balance with out taking away from a class hp / def would not be that one thing to make a class less of a class. If base hp is not as important then it should be no problem to standardize add a lot more room for classes and elite spec to be more different from each other with out braking the class. > > > > There are still glaring flaws in your reasoning. Listing just some of them. > > 1. Right back at the original topic: the power damage output **is** very much different between different professions, so why on Tyria should health pools and armor classes be equalized? > > 2. Base health is not important because you're expected to make full use of the available resources. A lot of different resources, not just your innate health and armor rating. Not every profession is equally good at standing AFK during combat, but them's the breaks, we want more different playstyles, not less. > > 3. Standardizing base health is clearly going to *decrease* build diversity while possibly breaking some professions (either thieves/mesmers or thieves/guardians/elementalists). > > It dose but only because of the class and how they must build. Though all dps class will do the same dmg in time. > Base health is very important for not getting one shot. > If your playing a class because of its base health only then your playing the class for the wrong reason. > > @Linken.6345 > I think they could add that in but i would think life force effect for war would be a better tool there not realy any give up hp to do things in this game it may just not fit. The fear is that they add in a war class who dose fast ranged attks and you have an unkillable ranged dps who will comply dominate with out putting it self in any risk. and that wouldent happen if they had to sacrifice life with every attack, they would be careful not to over reach the dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > Right now power / precision dose not differ from class to class making it a lot easier to balance with out taking away from a class hp / def would not be that one thing to make a class less of a class. If base hp is not as important then it should be no problem to standardize add a lot more room for classes and elite spec to be more different from each other with out braking the class. > > > > There are still glaring flaws in your reasoning. Listing just some of them. > > 1. Right back at the original topic: the power damage output **is** very much different between different professions, so why on Tyria should health pools and armor classes be equalized? > > 2. Base health is not important because you're expected to make full use of the available resources. A lot of different resources, not just your innate health and armor rating. Not every profession is equally good at standing AFK during combat, but them's the breaks, we want more different playstyles, not less. > > 3. Standardizing base health is clearly going to *decrease* build diversity while possibly breaking some professions (either thieves/mesmers or thieves/guardians/elementalists). > > It dose but only because of the class and how they must build. Though all dps class will do the same dmg in time. It does because of different coefficients. Your power can be the same as mine numerically, but you're not going to reach the same damage as mine when my output is 1.2x(power) and yours is 0.6x(power) **base damage, using the same gear prefix**. Again, what's your point? Do you want to normalize damage coefficients too, losing the clarity (harder to compare professions intuitively) and literally breaking half of the weapons of all professions? > Base health is very important for not getting one shot. > If your playing a class because of its base health only then your playing the class for the wrong reason. You're never getting oneshot in PvE if you're playing any build correctly, even berserker elementalist. And different health is an important balancing point in competitive game modes which you cannot take away without breaking half of the professions. If you're having trouble with the combat, though, you might want to learn to play or, indeed, build tankier. This is build diversity for you and the reason why people can play how they want. You're not being forced into anything by the game, so please stop imposing flawed changes on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > Right now power / precision dose not differ from class to class making it a lot easier to balance with out taking away from a class hp / def would not be that one thing to make a class less of a class. If base hp is not as important then it should be no problem to standardize add a lot more room for classes and elite spec to be more different from each other with out braking the class. > > > > > > There are still glaring flaws in your reasoning. Listing just some of them. > > > 1. Right back at the original topic: the power damage output **is** very much different between different professions, so why on Tyria should health pools and armor classes be equalized? > > > 2. Base health is not important because you're expected to make full use of the available resources. A lot of different resources, not just your innate health and armor rating. Not every profession is equally good at standing AFK during combat, but them's the breaks, we want more different playstyles, not less. > > > 3. Standardizing base health is clearly going to *decrease* build diversity while possibly breaking some professions (either thieves/mesmers or thieves/guardians/elementalists). > > > > It dose but only because of the class and how they must build. Though all dps class will do the same dmg in time. > > It does because of different coefficients. Your power can be the same as mine numerically, but you're not going to reach the same damage as mine when my output is 1.2x(power) and yours is 0.6x(power) **base damage, using the same gear prefix**. > Again, what's your point? Do you want to normalize damage coefficients too, losing the clarity (harder to compare professions intuitively) and literally breaking half of the weapons of all professions? > > > Base health is very important for not getting one shot. > > If your playing a class because of its base health only then your playing the class for the wrong reason. > > You're never getting oneshot in PvE if you're playing any build correctly, even berserker elementalist. And different health is an important balancing point in competitive game modes which you cannot take away without breaking half of the professions. > If you're having trouble with the combat, though, you might want to learn to play or, indeed, build tankier. This is build diversity for you and the reason why people can play how they want. You're not being forced into anything by the game, so please stop imposing flawed changes on us. Coefficients are more base off of melee vs ranged and cd / cast times then hp / def. So you have some of the highest coefficients on the highest hp classes. The thing is over time they get nerfed and normalized because of classes doing to much dmg in pve with no though to there hp / def balancing. Simply put its out dated means of balancing and it needs to go away or at least be reduced. Its about 400 free vit from each hp level (4000 hp) its too much if it dose not mean any thing to class balancing. Yes on some level vit dose add more dmg all be it harder to pull off and yes it dose free up a class to build more glass in some game types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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