Fixing Stealth

[Kovu.7560]

Everyone has their own idea, I'll throw in mine.

Remove the ability to stack stealth, except for blasting smoke fields. If you attempt to use a skill (that isn't a blast finisher on a smoke field) granting stealth while already stealthed the duration of existing stealth will not increase. Perhaps tweak stealth duration a little bit on certain thief abilities to compensate, (probably not even needed.)

I can't say I'm fond of Shadow Meld, reveals aren't _that _common and generally require some sort of investment (usually a utility skill) on the part of the user.

 

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> while this would be a deserved nerf to thieves, it would be a harmful nerfs to mesmers.

 

You do realize certain mesmers builds are generally considered _more_ broken than stealth stacking thieves, right? Admittedly its not the stealth that breaks them, but I'm just throwing that out there.

 

~ Kovu

[DeadlySynz.3471]

> @"Widmo.3186" said:

> A,B and D are not needed, stealth as mechanic is fine, its not like in WoW because of GW2 other mechanics, but still its good. What makes it broken/annoying/ppl complaining is that one of specializations has too big access to it without any field signs (which might not make big difference in PvE or PvP, but WvW has tons of open field to be used and abused). C nerf can be considered by some ppl as good, but imo its DE business card and should remain as a viable pick.

> Just being honest, if you have problems with Stealth mechanic, play thief/mes, learn class movement and next time just predict where they could move and nuke that place> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Where is: F. Remove Stealth from the game because it's a lazy mechanic and should only be used in PvE missions.?

 

This ^^

 

Or at the bare minimum, remove stealth while in combat. Allow it to only be used as a surprise 1st hit and nothing more (which realistically should have been in the game since it's inception).

[sephiroth.4217]

Went with C because I dont like counters to counters...

 

Same opinion about blocks... Guardian sustain was built around blocks but its completey worthless with people packing a tonne of unblockables.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> Went with C because I dont like counters to counters...

>

> Same opinion about blocks... Guardian sustain was built around blocks but its completey worthless with people packing a tonne of unblockables.

 

The argument could be made that thief sustain was built around stealth but it's completely worthless with people packing a ton of reveal. If we should remove unblockable, should we also remove reveal skills?

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > Went with C because I dont like counters to counters...

> >

> > Same opinion about blocks... Guardian sustain was built around blocks but its completey worthless with people packing a tonne of unblockables.

>

> The argument could be made that thief sustain was built around stealth but it's completely worthless with people packing a ton of reveal. If we should remove unblockable, should we also remove reveal skills?

 

Im not a fan of reveal either but a ranger/DH cant apply revealed to a steathed character (unless you bring the trap thats only good for breaking stealth) and theres wiggle room for dealing with revs, scrappers because you have to be close to apply it...

 

All you get with DH blocks is death... I hate dying this way and its cheap slaughtering someone this way because I know im exploiting the class by undermining its sustain...

 

 

 

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > Went with C because I dont like counters to counters...

> >

> > Same opinion about blocks... Guardian sustain was built around blocks but its completey worthless with people packing a tonne of unblockables.

>

> The argument could be made that thief sustain was built around stealth but it's completely worthless with people packing a ton of reveal. If we should remove unblockable, should we also remove reveal skills?

 

The point about DH blocks is that DH doesn't have a skill that makes it's blocks, block unblockable. As DH is built around it, something people keep saying about stealth and DE, however DE is the only one that gets a counter to it's counter. A DH that runs into someone who runs unblockable will often have a very hard time, as they should, because if someone else plays a counter well, you should suffer. Reveal skills are not super common, and are often short duration and on longer CD. And people don't "pack a ton" of reveal, it's actually pretty rare and most people MIGHT have one reveal for a fight. Some don't run any at all because the skill is useless on their class.

[SoV.5139]

One shot killing people from stealth, and learning the ~3-5 button rotation for escape when that fails, then learning the mystical art of repeating the exact same thing until it succeeds, took about as much skill as writing this post did. XD

[Basharic.1654]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> I don't like any of those alone.

> Stealth needs a rework to address its bugs, its issues and the problems it causes.

> It can't be left as it is, because problems from it keep popping up. Eventually, something will have to be done.

> But it can't be removed, and there's definitely no quick fixes for it, and changes should not just be done to nerf it. It doesn't needs nerfing. It needs fixing. . .

 

 

I think you are on the right track but over complicating it a bit. All GW2 stealth really needs to fix it is a proximity detection warning, and to change revealed skills to enhanced detection skills. Proximity detection should work a lot like WoW where it's baseline to the game. You get an audio warning and see an outline if you are paying attention, but only if you are facing the stealthed player. Enhanced Stealth detection skills should be a variety of AoE utilities that every profession has access to. Some classes it could be ground targeted, others it could be just an increased range and 360 degree expansion of the the baseline detection.

 

Stealth play's biggest issue has always been that in the hands of a competent player there is absolutely no effective counterplay to it other than GTFO as fast as you can. **Running around randomly dodging and hitting AOE skills in the hope of connecting is not freaking counterplay. It's a sign something's wrong.**

[Rasp Sabreblade.5421]

stealth is and has always been a broken mechanic. The isn't that stealth exists; it is the duration, the chaining and the sheer dmg that can be done from stealth.

If stealth was viewed by Anet purely as an escape and reset mechanic, where stealth can't be used unless you are engaged and below 75% health, or they place a dmg modifier where your dmg is 50% less 3-5 seconds after you come out of stealth.

For GW2 being such a reactionary game - stealth removes the reaction time. IMO - this mechanic only effects PvP/WvW and PvE doesn't matter in this conversation.

Most of the threads are about thief, but Mesmer, ranger and engineer have the same issues. This thread should be about the stealth mechanic and not about the professions.

[kash.9213]

> @"SoV.5139" said:

> One shot killing people from stealth, and learning the ~3-5 button rotation for escape when that fails, then learning the mystical art of repeating the exact same thing until it succeeds, took about as much skill as writing this post did. XD

 

If you get killed by a DE who doesn't stealth much but plays more 5-2-4-5-4- you'd probably be just as frustrated if you're talking being one shot instead of vs perma stealth.

[SoV.5139]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"SoV.5139" said:

> > One shot killing people from stealth, and learning the ~3-5 button rotation for escape when that fails, then learning the mystical art of repeating the exact same thing until it succeeds, took about as much skill as writing this post did. XD

>

> If you get killed by a DE who doesn't stealth much but plays more 5-2-4-5-4- you'd probably be just as frustrated if you're talking being one shot instead of vs perma stealth.

 

Not necessarily, as that allows the player to make them pay if/when they mess up their burst. The problem isnt that any one aspect is OP, but that all of them were given to the same class. Best mobility, best stealth, high burst damage, escape mechanics...etc. In game design giving best stealth and best mobility at the same time to same class is already a red flag, before adding in the other stuff. Most games cause slower movement when in stealth, disallow blinking in and out of stealth at will after the initial ambush, and dont provide more mobility to the class that already has best stealth, and even under those conditions, the ability to high damage ambush a target is still very powerful. If the target is still alive and begins to win the fight and the thief (rogue) wants to use stealth to escape, fine, but they dont get to follow the target around at the same rate of mobility while their skills reset to try it all over again, and repeat until success. If outplayed after the burst, they have to make the hard choice to either stealth and fail the kill, or continue the fight and try to salvage it, knowing there is an actual risk of losing.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> Im not a fan of reveal either but a ranger/DH cant apply revealed to a steathed character (unless you bring the trap thats only good for breaking stealth) and theres wiggle room for dealing with revs, scrappers because you have to be close to apply it...

 

True, although I'd say holo/scrapper's reveal is much more dangerous than you give it credit. I fought a good scrapper recently on my deadeye, between the AoE from hammer with lock on and stealth gyro he consistently denied me stealth as he was good at pinning me down when I tried to build malice, and I was forced to kite with rifle out of stealth and down him with a lucky DJ. You only need static discharge and lock on and you're able to reveal after a stealth with non of your major skills used.

 

Rev reveal is deadly when used right, most people try fishing with it randomly tho which gets you killed as you just burned your stunbreak. You should use shiro port then legend swap to reveal offensively before using basically any sword skill for the kill.

 

> All you get with DH blocks is death... I hate dying this way and its cheap slaughtering someone this way because I know im exploiting the class by undermining its sustain...

 

While I get where you're coming from, but by the same token wouldn't it also be cheap to undermine a thief's sustain by denying stealth? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, don't take this offensively or anything :)

 

Guardian has the same issue that thief does, in that once you get past their main defense and land a blow their low HP means they get chunked easily.

That makes them especially vulnerable to DJ, the trick there is to not allow them to build up malice in the first place. Easier said than done tho.

 

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> The point about DH blocks is that DH doesn't have a skill that makes it's blocks, block unblockable. As DH is built around it, something people keep saying about stealth and DE, however DE is the only one that gets a counter to it's counter. A DH that runs into someone who runs unblockable will often have a very hard time, as they should, because if someone else plays a counter well, you should suffer. Reveal skills are not super common, and are often short duration and on longer CD. And people don't "pack a ton" of reveal, it's actually pretty rare and most people MIGHT have one reveal for a fight. Some don't run any at all because the skill is useless on their class.

 

That's true, but an unblockable attack usually isn't used over a period of time (soulbeast probably being the exception, although very few seem to use the unblockable traits these days) whereas a reveal lasts for 6 seconds minimum. I do actually agree that reveal skills should be more common tho, or more accessible through traits like lock on and magebane tether to make fitting them into a build easier.

 

If it were me balancing thief stealth, I'd do something very simple; change the thief's shadow arts minor trait that extends the duration of stealth from skills by 1s to also extend the self applied reveal from attacking by 1s. That way, if you want passive longer stealth you have it, but you also have a larger window of opportunity to kill them should they choose to attack. It's not an ideal solution, but it's a simple change that's easily implemented and won't mess up any build not using SA.

[Miko.4158]

perma stealth + tagging is an issue, dont see it here

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> That's true, but an unblockable attack usually isn't used over a period of time (soulbeast probably being the exception, although very few seem to use the unblockable traits these days) whereas a reveal lasts for 6 seconds minimum. I do actually agree that reveal skills should be more common tho, or more accessible through traits like lock on and magebane tether to make fitting them into a build easier.

>

> If it were me balancing thief stealth, I'd do something very simple; change the thief's shadow arts minor trait that extends the duration of stealth from skills by 1s to also extend the self applied reveal from attacking by 1s. That way, if you want passive longer stealth you have it, but you also have a larger window of opportunity to kill them should they choose to attack. It's not an ideal solution, but it's a simple change that's easily implemented and won't mess up any build not using SA.

 

SB and DE are two that have very easy access to unblockable and both ranged with a faster spam time than reveal. DE has weapon skills that are unblockable, SB has a number of unblockables on pretty short CD that lasts 6s, and thats for blocks that has far FAR less up time than stealth. As DH will only have 5 seconds of block (traited, 3 seconds not) on a 60 second CD and only blocks from the front. Using other blocks requires giving up massive amounts of healing by going shelter over trap heal, or wasting DPS by popping focus 5. The other thing is that block can be attacked at any time, it's whole up time can be countered, stealth has a limited window to reveal, and once in stealth is just random chance to get reveal off assuming you are on a class with a non targeted reveal and they are in range.

 

Point is that stealth, big time on DE allows little to no counter pressure play. As the other player, you have to ALWAYS be ready, while the one in stealth has time to setup and position or wait for CDs and waiting for the right moment. This is very powerful, and the time that you have to counter it is quiet short, big time when you consider the only time you have to counter is when a big burst is coming, because if they reveal they are either popping DJ or BS, so you have the choice to dodge (it's unblockable) or hope you can tank it, cast reveal and hope they don't have any dodges, blocks or evades up.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

It's telling we can't get a Dev comment on fixing stealth...

[Reh.5986]

Just make perma stealthers come up for air every once in awhile. Also, leave a mark when they stack stealth via dodge/de elite.

 

Had 2 DEs double death's judgement w quickness the other day. They were well timed. I actually saw it all in my log even though 1 of them would have been near a 1 shot. Nothing you can do without running tanky or being a class with one of the god tier passive invulns.

 

Engi/ranger ability to disengage/reset w stealth is very annoying with how tanky/mobile they are. Would say the same for some condi mes builds but they aren't near as dangerous.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"Reh.5986" said:

> Just make perma stealthers come up for air every once in awhile. Also, leave a mark when they stack stealth via dodge/de elite.

>

> Had 2 DEs double death's judgement w quickness the other day. They were well timed. I actually saw it all in my log even though 1 of them would have been near a 1 shot. Nothing you can do without running tanky or being a class with one of the god tier passive invulns.

>

> Engi/ranger ability to disengage/reset w stealth is very annoying with how tanky/mobile they are. Would say the same for some condi mes builds but they aren't near as dangerous.

 

I don't know if leaving a mark would make any difference, condi stealthing thieves that run with caltrops on dodge leave marks and people used to complain about those because they "couldn't get them" even with their dodges visible.

[Iozeph.5617]

> @"TheBravery.9615" said:

> Let's talk about some ideas to address stealth as a mechanic in GW2. I don't really think deadeyes or mirages are overtuned themselves, but the mechanics in place that make them overpowered. This game is heavily reliant on tab targeting despite being an action mmorpg, some simple adjustments to the stealth as a mechanic can balance mirage and deadeyes without nerfing the professions themselves.

 

Not going to speak to MIrages but as far as thieves -any flavour of thief- go, they're built around stealth. So yes, just about every suggested change you have there is a direct nerf to those professions in some way.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

Trade 1200 range targeted Reveal for 900 range area Reveal. Done.

[Reh.5986]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"Reh.5986" said:

> > Just make perma stealthers come up for air every once in awhile. Also, leave a mark when they stack stealth via dodge/de elite.

> >

> > Had 2 DEs double death's judgement w quickness the other day. They were well timed. I actually saw it all in my log even though 1 of them would have been near a 1 shot. Nothing you can do without running tanky or being a class with one of the god tier passive invulns.

> >

> > Engi/ranger ability to disengage/reset w stealth is very annoying with how tanky/mobile they are. Would say the same for some condi mes builds but they aren't near as dangerous.

>

> I don't know if leaving a mark would make any difference, condi stealthing thieves that run with caltrops on dodge leave marks and people used to complain about those because they "couldn't get them" even with their dodges visible.

 

Could be. Point for me is I usually run around on a glass build when I can. I generally don't mind stealth as it is. Getting 1 shot or wombo comboed from stealth by someone that has parked in stealth and is just chillin out waiting for someone to gank...kind of broken though. To be clear, if you're not paying attention and get caught be someone using only a few secs of stealth we're getting into l2p stuff. If they've been stealthed for 40 secs...it's a bit screwy if they can 1 shot you.

 

There shouldn't be perma stealth at all in the game. Maybe some sort of debuff every 10 secs or so that reveals and DE elite can't erase? Make them work for those ganks again. D/P thief used to have to work for backstabs. Now deadeye just parks in stealth, walks up for free backstab that can 1 shot many glass builds. If they're feeling lazy they can get you from 1500. If you're a glass build without the annoying passives and they have quickness and some level of skill there's a good chance you're down.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

just remove stealth

 

and:

 

pull deadeye. It is broken by design, it should have never been released.

[kash.9213]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> just remove stealth

>

> and:

>

> pull deadeye. It is broken by design, it should have never been released.

 

Since lazy ill informed posts are the thing now in WvW forum, you can just play another game if you can't handle Deadeye or stealth.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> just remove stealth

>

> and:

>

> pull deadeye. It is broken by design, it should have never been released.

 

Yeah, just take away an entire specialization from people (that they paid for) rather than [offering a suggestion](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/715665#Comment_715665) or anything helpful at all. That's how you get devs to fix a game.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

deadeye was broken and should never been released in the first place. The only ways to fix the mess is either nerf stealth and damage by 50+% or pull the class and rework it.

 

high risk, high reward, low risk, low reward. Deadeye currently: no risk, high reward. So either remove the reward, make it risky, or nuke the class.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Others: Reduce damage from stealth openers by 30% for 2 seconds.

 

Attacks from stealth has extremely limited tells and should not do so much damage.