solemn.9670 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > Its a hard nerf to war and weaver in wvw for sure maybe a soft nerf to rev all though that dmg is hard to boon up for one shot still a one shot lol. > > > > I see no ele changes lol > > Ele has no boon control at all and boons are much stronger vs power dmg -33% so with out a strip ele dmg is effectually weaker. All this is going to do is make scorge meta agen because it comes with boon control. There a lot more then one skill effected when you hit big skills like this. > > Even the lack of strip to deal with stab going to be a problem for ele as 1 stab strip for 10 ppl ends up causing more harm to the ele then good due to passives effects and at best its just going to remove the 1 stack of stab from 10 sec cd skill more then likely 1 stack from a 5 stack stab on a 28 sec cd lol. Its just a joke anet things less boon removal going to help the game (it was always that they stacked too much boon hate one one or 2 classes that was the problem). I do typically bomb into friendly bubbles when the opportunity arises, but most of the time I'm used to fighting without any bubbles whatsoever and just 100% pirate-shipping the hell out of an enemy. Never needed bubbles to be top DPS by a 20-40% margin and I don't suspect I'll need them now. The boon rip from other players helps a lot --- irrefutably. It's a good thing to have. But Weaver DPS is about good positioning, good skill management/quick skill combos and using your noggin, not boon rip from others ;) it helps, but Protection be damned, the enemy still knows when I'm hitting them lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloRules.3560 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 > @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > Its a hard nerf to war and weaver in wvw for sure maybe a soft nerf to rev all though that dmg is hard to boon up for one shot still a one shot lol. > > > > > > I see no ele changes lol > > > > Ele has no boon control at all and boons are much stronger vs power dmg -33% so with out a strip ele dmg is effectually weaker. All this is going to do is make scorge meta agen because it comes with boon control. There a lot more then one skill effected when you hit big skills like this. > > > > Even the lack of strip to deal with stab going to be a problem for ele as 1 stab strip for 10 ppl ends up causing more harm to the ele then good due to passives effects and at best its just going to remove the 1 stack of stab from 10 sec cd skill more then likely 1 stack from a 5 stack stab on a 28 sec cd lol. Its just a joke anet things less boon removal going to help the game (it was always that they stacked too much boon hate one one or 2 classes that was the problem). > > I do typically bomb into friendly bubbles when the opportunity arises, but most of the time I'm used to fighting without any bubbles whatsoever and just 100% pirate-shipping the hell out of an enemy. Never needed bubbles to be top DPS by a 20-40% margin and I don't suspect I'll need them now. The boon rip from other players helps a lot --- irrefutably. It's a good thing to have. But Weaver DPS is about good positioning, good skill management/quick skill combos and using your noggin, not boon rip from others ;) it helps, but Protection be damned, the enemy still knows when I'm hitting them lol Actually damage in itself is irrelevant. It's 50 people doing damage anyway. It's all about corrupt and cc... If enemy stops moving it's dead, not because you think you are doing a lot on weaver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffler.1257 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Excellent change, keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 I think it's a good change. While I personally thought it was sorta common sense to not stand in the glowy dome thing and I still don't know what most PoF abilities do, I think this particular skill was too dominating of a role in completely negating a good chunk of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Just got to play test it WoD felt a lot less oppressive seems like a pretty decent change after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 > @"Laggin Dragon.3062" said: > I don't mind the 5 second nerf to it, I feel like 10 seconds might have been a little too long, so 5-7 seconds is more reasonable. But the 1 second of not stripping was a very poor change. It already takes 1.5 seconds to cast, you can see when the Warrior is casting, so what was the point of adding a 1 second wind up? If you're going to do that then make it 6 seconds. > And I like how Anet thinks Warrior was the real problem in WvW. I feel like some Anet Devs was running around in WvW, got hit by a Warrior bubble or two and they were like "Whelp... this skill is OP, lets nerf it". What about Necro's Shades and their strip/corrupt? What about Firebrand pumping out boons? There's other classes that's more powerful than Warrior in WvW. The class was already in a tight spot and all this change did was push it out of group play. Spiteful Spirit: The area-of-effect damage inflicted by this trait has been split and will now use a 50% reduced value in PvP and WvW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solemn.9670 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 > @"SloRules.3560" said: > Actually damage in itself is irrelevant. It's 50 people doing damage anyway. It's all about corrupt and cc... If enemy stops moving it's dead, not because you think you are doing a lot on weaver. Ya, you're right, damage is irrelevant. I'll switch to full ministrel asap so I can kill downs with water blast while full ministrel necros focus on removing boons but doing as little damage as possible. Especially when I'm consistently 30% or more of that 50~ people, my damage is absolutely meaningless - I'm convinced. Ya focusing damage and generating/finishing downs simultaneously and effectively is pointless, only thing that matters is CC/boon corrupt so that fights can last 2 hours. When I have many video clips uploaded of myself very obviously changing the course of an entire battle by putting out a massive bomb very quickly, and having built up a reputation as a weaver on 3 different servers I think it's safe to say individual player's damage can't possibly matter. If you can't do it, neither can I, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArenaNet Staff Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 Posted October 20, 2018 ArenaNet Staff Share Posted October 20, 2018 Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limodriver.4106 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 whats next? REV nerf? aoe hitting 5 targets for 15000 from 1200 range is too OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Crinny.6190 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Limodriver.4106" said: > what next? REV nerf? Firebrand,Scourge,Chrono would probably be the classes that have a chance of a nerf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBravery.9615 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. When you talk about counterplay, what was the thought process behind giving deadeyes shadow meld? Revealed was intended to be a counter to stealth, why would you give a counter to a counter? How many counterplays do you intend to make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. The opportunity for counterplay doesn't only come from keeping your stability but being able to break stun and/or dodge. Yet one break stun only allows you to dodge once and that won't result in getting out because of the 360 radius. You can still get stuck or pulled back in even if you are reactive because the needed time to go out of a 360 radius is more than 1 second and by that time stability gets stripped anyway (first pulse or not)... It all comes to either: - WoD's finality is to ensure kills by keeping people in its area of 360 radius - WoD's finality is to counter firebrand/chronomancer's boonsaring by stripping boons. Duration's nerf was nice, thank you for that and for answering this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"TheBravery.9615" said: > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. > > When you talk about counterplay, what was the thought process behind giving deadeyes shadow meld? Revealed was intended to be a counter to stealth, why would you give a counter to a counter? How many counterplays do you intend to make? Subject for another thread I should think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nativity.3057 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. WoD has a 1.5 sec cast time. Realistically anything above 1 sec cast time is a long time that requires preparation for the full channel. Not to mention the fact that a Warrior has to expend stability (in this case Balanced Stance) to complete the cast to avoid being interrupted. While I can concur with the idea that 10 secs might be too long for an area denial skill, removing the initial first tick from the cast gives opposing players 2.5 secs to respond. That's a long time for the elite skill to have any effect. Projectile hate is already so much that WoD isn't an issue (not to mention Rev hammer 2 & 5 isn't a projectile). If this nerf makes WoD obsolete for zerg play (not enough time to figure that out), all Warrior elite skills are useless for zerg play. Warbanner is a joke, Signet of Might is essentially a roaming elite, and Headbutt is even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. > > The opportunity for counterplay doesn't come from keeping your stability but from break stun. Yet one break stun only allows you to dodge once, not get out of it because of the 360 radius. You can still get stuck or pulled back in even if you are reactive because the needed time to go out of a 360 radius is more than 1 second and by that time stability gets stripped anyway.. You made the choice of killing players :) > It all comes to either: > - WoD exists to ensure kills by keeping people in its area of 360 radius > - WoD exists to counter firebrand/chronomancer's boonsaring by stripping boons. > > Duration's nerf was nice, thank you for that and for answering to this post. You're right in that the radius is too large if you're in the center, but on the edges it's better with the delay which is at least something. The problem is that everyone today is a boonbot, and how potent boons are. Boon builds literally run the same effects as having the amount of stats as two sets of armor. Permanently. Plus all of the utility they bring like stability/resistance/vigor. Hell, some builds, have been normalized around getting even more power from boons, like engi and necro. It's completely insane. The concentration stat only makes it worse. Now building around permaboons is stupid easy for everything. The overflow and over-dependence of boons - especially with there being so much CC in the game that stability is a requirement - is what breaks WoD and AoE boon denial builds (Scourge). It's been a race between power creep on disables, CC, etc. and boon strength. All of it needs to be toned down. Harshly. When we have entire elite specs and metas dedicated to spamming and shutting down area boons, is that not enough of an indicator that there's a problem? At launch, they were supposed to be very short-term boosts, and usually at a cost. This was explicitly mentioned in one of the early gameplay videos talking about how they wanted gameplay visibility to be high and such that people wouldn't need to be paying too much attention to status bars, but rather look at the character and know what to expect. Remember that back then, everyone ran For Great Justice! On a 25s cooldown. With only 25% of the might and a net reduced duration without ammo. Remember that low boons and visible gameplay were what made the PvP in this game popular to begin with, and straying away from that is why so many have been disenfranchised with the game. I appreciate you at least taking the time to state the reasoning behind the change, Irenio. I'd like to see more of these kinds of changes, especially in respects to nerfing boons and boon denial (and possibly deleting the concentration stat/boon duration from the game as a whole as well given how problematic it is in this respect). I really do want to play again, but it's the situation where you either play boons, play invuln spam, play boon denial, or lose, that's just infuriating to the point where I don't think I'll deem the game worth playing again until it's fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Hu.1694 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 how do they know the balance of the wvw ? we hoD play from tier1 to tier4, i dont see anet play the wvw alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Acyk.9671" said: > > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > > > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > > > > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > > > > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. > > > > The opportunity for counterplay doesn't come from keeping your stability but from break stun. Yet one break stun only allows you to dodge once, not get out of it because of the 360 radius. You can still get stuck or pulled back in even if you are reactive because the needed time to go out of a 360 radius is more than 1 second and by that time stability gets stripped anyway.. You made the choice of killing players :) > > It all comes to either: > > - WoD exists to ensure kills by keeping people in its area of 360 radius > > - WoD exists to counter firebrand/chronomancer's boonsaring by stripping boons. > > > > Duration's nerf was nice, thank you for that and for answering to this post. > > You're right in that the radius is too large if you're in the center, but on the edges it's better with the delay which is at least something. > > The problem is that everyone today is a boonbot, and how potent boons are. > > Boon builds literally run the same effects as having the amount of stats as two sets of armor. Permanently. Plus all of the utility they bring like stability/resistance/vigor. Hell, some builds, have been normalized around getting even more power from boons, like engi and necro. It's completely insane. > > The concentration stat only makes it worse. Now building around permaboons is stupid easy for everything. > > The overflow and over-dependence of boons - especially with there being so much CC in the game that stability is a requirement - is what breaks WoD and AoE boon denial builds (Scourge). It's been a race between power creep on disables, CC, etc. and boon strength. > > All of it needs to be toned down. Harshly. When we have entire elite specs and metas dedicated to spamming and shutting down area boons, is that not enough of an indicator that there's a problem? At launch, they were supposed to be very short-term boosts, and usually at a cost. This was explicitly mentioned in one of the early gameplay videos talking about how they wanted gameplay visibility to be high and such that people wouldn't need to be paying too much attention to status bars, but rather look at the character and know what to expect. > > Remember that back then, everyone ran For Great Justice! On a 25s cooldown. With only 25% of the might and a net reduced duration without ammo. > Remember that low boons and visible gameplay were what made the PvP in this game popular to begin with, and straying away from that is why so many have been disenfranchised with the game. > > I appreciate you at least taking the time to state the reasoning behind the change, Irenio. I'd like to see more of these kinds of changes, especially in respects to nerfing boons and boon denial (and possibly deleting the concentration stat/boon duration from the game as a whole as well given how problematic it is in this respect). > > I really do want to play again, but it's the situation where you either play boons, play invuln spam, play boon denial, or lose, that's just infuriating to the point where I don't think I'll deem the game worth playing again until it's fixed. > > I edited my post since you quote (really late where i live and sentences didn't transcribe my thoughts as i wish they would) Yeah sure but a good warrior will drop his WoD on top of you so you should be in the middle. If you are already on the edge, you dodge or easily walk out and removing the first pulse doesn't change anything except not stripping boons. From my perspective, countering boon-sharing is what WoD is all about... Haha yeah a time where 6 boons was everything you needed not 12 like now. You sustained by blasting water field, good times. I don't mind boons to be honest because Anet had to find other mechanics to implement with expansions but the power creep of boons + corrupts + damage make balancing harder and harder and sometimes those balance changes are just weird. We have frequent balance though, i won't complain but rather rejoice about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyk.9671 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 they read forum + reddit i guess. couple devs watch a lot of gvgs too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Acyk.9671" said: > they read forum + reddit i guess. couple devs watch a lot of gvgs too They PLAY the game. They even stream it, every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frick.2635 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. This was a really good change, thanks for giving us the info on why it was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 The change make it less torturing for smaller group with less spellbreakers while accelerating the decision making but doesn't change the meta and playsytle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBravery.9615 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 To be honest- the nerf is fine. If PoF shipped the game with a 5 second duration WoD, I wouldn't be asking to buff it to 10 seconds. When the skill was first announced, it was clearly overpowered on paper. 10 seconds, unblockable, affects 10 targets, half second intervals is just too much. WoD will still have a place in WvW despite this nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveller.7496 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 The 5 second duration nerf doesn't hit me nearly as much as the 1 second delay in the beginning. It already has a long cast time and a huge tell, it didn't need the extra nerf in the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miko.4158 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said: > Winds of Disenchantment was changed significantly for WvW because it was contributing significantly to prolonged area denial. > > To dig a bit deeper - In particular, the removal of the initial pulse was done to create an opportunity for counterplay. Previously the effect for WoD hadn't even formed before it was stripping boons from people in its radius. By removing the initial pulse, if someone can react very quickly they have a chance to get out of its area of effect. > > The new duration was chosen because it is one that can be waited out without entirely halting all momentum and adjusted to while still providing a very powerful effect. if the balance was to allow counterplay, and so the delay to the effect , why not balance it with a reduction to cast time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 Any thoughts on making it a pure boon denial / healing denial tool but give spell braker more boon strips for its other skill? Just a zone of counter effect but no active effect on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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