DPS shaming

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> It's not a matter of the fairest meter, I meant that things has become more complex instead of more simple, from a 1 layer to 2 layers security check.

> Before you had to ping/show your stuff. Stop.

> Now you have to FIRST ping/show your stuff, THEN do enough dps to satisfy the standard or whatever the commander of your group think the standard is.

> But if you want to talk about fair meters then imho both those 2 layers must be eliminated in order to have a healthier game becouse noone must have the ability to check others in any way.

 

First of all it's not a double layer elimination situation. It's only the one layer with KP/LI. If you meet those (and not faking) you most likely won't be kicked at all because you are able to pull your weight. The DPS meter function as a control tool for the commander/raid in troubleshooting. I haven't seen many kicks due to failing a certain dps threshold when I pugged lately.

Secondly, it was already stated: If you delete arcdps and KPs/LIs from the equation people will go back to other requirement sources, most likely certain classes on certain bosses. And you would be kicked when failing mechanics once or 2 downstates in one try for example although you could have been top dps and your healer is mediocre/bad. We would definitely see people asking for AP again and I couldn't join with my twink account because not having 5k APs but all bosses down, precursor armor and enough LIs.

 

> People should merge in parties/squads with people with different levels, ranging from pros to newbies. It would take much time for pros and it would take less time for newbs than it usually takes to complete fract/raid, instead of splitting the community in training and KPs groups and creating salty topics like this one, where 2 opposite views clash with no chances of agreements.

> Alas most so called "pros" are permanently in a hurry state, wanting to complete everything as fast as possible and a big part of newbs would't want or wouldn' be able to learn preferring to be carried instead, thus such a solution would cause a verbal war so things will stay as they are, with 2 opposite groups in the community.

 

No thank you. It wouldn't just take more time. People would also be very frustrated and yelling at each other especially when a new player fails a mechanic for the 999th time. The thing is GW2 in it's core content is a very easy game and you can have fun in almost every area without having a decent amount of skill. That's not true for raids, fractal CMs (and maybe Mai & Ooze Thaumanova, lol), PvP in the higher leagues and organized WvW.

You just can't step into raids with random beginners and think that you'll beat a boss in one evening. It's not going to happen because the average GW2 player has no clue about mechanics themselves, their own class with useful traits & skills and how to properly play within a team. Not having the right gear can be a problem you sometimes cannot solve within an hour with inexperienced players.

And sure, you can teach them but you need at least one player with knowledge. This is what we then call a "training raid" and they exist, are organized in discords, reddit and sometimes in the lfg. But don't expect me, a veteran player who works every day, to be forced to play with random strangers and enjoying to wipe not knowing if I'll beat the boss or not although I have mastered the fight myself. It would be so frustrating making me leave the game and not spending any more € to a thing I play since almost 6 years now!

 

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

>

> Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

 

No. That's why you consult the combat parser and look at his mechanics failed and times he stopped to res. The tool provides all of this information but people don't think to look at this. This is not an issue with the tool but peoples ability to do proper analysis.

[rabenpriester.7129]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said: >

>But don't expect me, a veteran player who works every day, to be forced to play with random strangers and enjoying to wipe not knowing if I'll beat the boss or not although I have mastered the fight myself.

 

Don't worry, I'll force you to enjoy wiping with your guildies instead. Now let me just pull this Seeker over here...

 

[Blaeys.3102]

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

> >

> > Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

>

> No. That's why you consult the combat parser and look at his mechanics failed and times he stopped to res. The tool provides all of this information but people don't think to look at this. This is not an issue with the tool but peoples ability to do proper analysis.

 

The problem is a lot of raiders don't think about that part mid-fight. They only care about whether or not their name is above everyone else's on the meter - which leads to meters making the overall group's dps lower for the ego of a single player.

 

If meters were limited to the individual - you can only see your personal dps/statistics, it would solve the problem of toxicity, give people a way to improve and eliminate the need to constantly measure your worth to the group based on how you measure up to everyone else there.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Easiest solution would be to ban the use of all dps meters. If people can't learn to play nicely based on them, then remove them.

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > > The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

> > >

> > > Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

> >

> > No. That's why you consult the combat parser and look at his mechanics failed and times he stopped to res. The tool provides all of this information but people don't think to look at this. This is not an issue with the tool but peoples ability to do proper analysis.

>

> The problem is a lot of raiders don't think about that part mid-fight. They only care about whether or not their name is above everyone else's on the meter - which leads to meters making the overall group's dps lower for the ego of a single player.

>

> If meters were limited to the individual - you can only see your personal dps/statistics, it would solve the problem of toxicity, give people a way to improve and eliminate the need to constantly measure your worth to the group based on how you measure up to everyone else there.

 

And completely eliminate the ability to triage root causes of wipes. Also in the hundreds of pug runs I've had I can literally count on 1 hand how many people made comments about being at the top of meter standings. Instead the most common comment is when a dps is lower than the bs by a significant margin at which point it's no longer about greeding.

[rabenpriester.7129]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Easiest solution would be to ban the use of all dps meters. If people can't learn to play nicely based on them, then remove them.

 

Just... stop. Just stop it. Please.

[Tyson.5160]

Easier solution would be to add an easy mode, similar to what we have with the lair of the snowmen. Been doing it consistently with Pugs since release.

[Vinceman.4572]

Players will shame no matter what. Just came out of a "Daily Toypocalypse" group I opened with a guild mate.

One player complained about two (!) of my initial balistas for the first wave not shooting because I set up some walls in front of them later on. He complained about not having enough "impact" and flamed. It turned out he doesn't raid or plays fractals. Additionally I don't have to tell you guys that he also hasn't used a dps meter nor would this be any kind of useful in that low bob instance.

 

It's the humans who are idiotic, not the tool.

[Morte de Angelis.7986]

Before DPS meters the only DPS that was allowed into Raids was Ele because they could get higher Golem Numbers, when it turns out in Practise, in an actual raid setting, the DPS of classes were a lot closer then the Golem made it out to be but people only realised this when DPS metres were allowed.

 

On a bad day a Daredevil would do more DPS then an Ele cause the Daredevil rotation was much simpler and a lot of the damage came from the Auto Chain but because Ele pulled higher Golem numbers no one cared. These number were pulled from qT, the 0.5%. Not the average pug that wouldn't even pull 80% of a benchmark in actual setting.

 

Yet people were still toxic are were the exact same they just had to get creative. The more observant commanders would be able to tell from rotations which ones were slacking, Meteor Shower is a pretty big give away same as Ice Bow. So I know of a few CMDR's who would try and keep an eye on how many times you used Meteor or Ice Bow during an encounter. Others based it on how many times you went down, 1 or 2 times and you were kicked no questions even if it was a mechanical mistake (such as dodging) rather then failing due to lack of DPS. Or the more common option was to just leave the group and try again.

 

Removing DPS Meters won't change people's attitudes. That was there before and if they were remove will be there long after. The only thing that changes is why people will kick from at least being performance based to "what ever I feel like".

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

>

> Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

 

I usually see the opposite tbh. Everyone mass rushing to ress a downed person. Sometimes this causes snowball effect where more people go downed trying to res.

 

Ofc you do get the odd dps player like you mentioned, but they are definitely in the minority.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > > Its called trial and error. Long ago we had these things called dungeons, and they had mechanics that could cause groups to fail if not done properly, and guess what, players learned them without DPS meters being in game.

> > > And as soon as they figured them out and put them on farm we had a meta where people got insta-kicked for the wrong class just like we do now.

> > >

> >

> > Ive yet to get kicked for any of the classes i play in raids, granted i dont pug, so i cant speak to that.

> >

> > > > The *ONLY* good thing that has come out of dps meters is people can see that classes arent useless(necro and ranger, which would get kicked on sight), which with the addition of the DPS golem in the training area would still have happened.

> > > But still we hear the same tired speeches by necro-mains booty-bothered about not getting raid spots and rangers who get insta kicked in WvW to this day.

> > > I may not use or support the use of DPS meters personally, but I am not going pretend ARC created the drama, made it any better or worsened the community in any way.

> > >

> > > The only thing different different is raw numbers power the toxicity.

> >

> > Necros i can understand in raids, every other class(well, thieves are a more recent addition) but them is welcome by the general raiding public. Rangers in WvW is just a case of players wanting their class to be good at something that its not meant to be good at.

> >

> > Im not pretending it did, the drama started literal years before the first DPS meter was created, shortly after launch. The difference was anet flat out refused to allow them, and using them was a bannable offense. Anet caved to a vocal group(not going to say minority here, cause i never did count the number of unique people posting like i used to with other topics), and they got allowed, now we get to deal with both sides of DPS meters being toxic to each other, which is something i said way back then. Should they have been allowed? I dont know, imo, i think an ingame personal(*ONLY*) should have been added that way players could see their DPS/mechanics etc constantly, but only their own.

> >

> >

>

> I much prefer the data informed reality we have today over having to rely on a pugmander's gut feeling who likely doesnt have a deep understanding of all 9 classes' builds and rotations, while simaltaneously watching all 10 peoples ability usage to figure out why a mechanic failed. The trial and error process would start with kicking necros and rangers or some other uninformed degenerate behavior without factual backing.

 

Yes, and i addressed that. Its the *ONLY* good thing that came out of allowing DPS meters IMO. Im not against each player having their own personal DPS meter(provided it could and should display all the information that ARC does), but im a firm believer in allowing players the option to opt in or out of letting others see their stats.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> Yes, and i addressed that. Its the *ONLY* good thing that came out of allowing DPS meters IMO. Im not against each player having their own personal DPS meter(provided it could and should display all the information that ARC does), but im a firm believer in allowing players the option to opt in or out of letting others see their stats.

 

Not seeing the stats of others makes the meter rather pointless. And besides, if there was an opt in/out option all groups would simply ask you to opt in in order to join. Why would anyone, other than training or casual/all welcome groups, take someone opting-out from showing their stats anyway? What do they want to hide so badly? It only makes said player look suspicious of lying about their skill and/or experience, nothing more. An opt in/out feature would only make LFG listings slightly longer and serve no real purpose.

[Dante.1763]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > Yes, and i addressed that. Its the *ONLY* good thing that came out of allowing DPS meters IMO. Im not against each player having their own personal DPS meter(provided it could and should display all the information that ARC does), but im a firm believer in allowing players the option to opt in or out of letting others see their stats.

>

> Not seeing the stats of others makes the meter rather pointless. And besides, if there was an opt in/out option all groups would simply ask you to opt in in order to join. Why would anyone, other than training or casual/all welcome groups, take someone opting-out from showing their stats anyway? What do they want to hide so badly? It only makes said player look suspicious of lying about their skill and/or experience, nothing more. An opt in/out feature would only make LFG listings slightly longer and serve no real purpose.

 

Yes, it would be required for most groups, but it would be way easier to sort players that way than those who join a group saying they are experienced(either by lying about KP, etc) and then failing on the first encounter. If they refuse to opt in, then they get kicked before even entering the raid. LFG would take no longer than it already does.

 

And no, it wouldnt make the meter useless, as the meters currently are, they are completely useless to me as i refuse to run third party programs, if GW2 had one built in i would run it actively just to see what i could do on an average basis.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> Yes, it would be required for most groups, but it would be way easier to sort players that way than those who join a group saying they are experienced(either by lying about KP, etc) and then failing on the first encounter. If they refuse to opt in, then they get kicked before even entering the raid. LFG would take no longer than it already does.

 

Easier to sort players how? Only difference it would make is making LFG listings slightly longer. You also add an extra question and reason for consideration when inviting players, the only way that an opt in/out feature would be useful is if the moment you clicked opt-out it would disallow you from viewing the raid tab (and maybe fractal T4 tab), otherwise it's only an extra needless hassle.

 

> And no, it wouldnt make the meter useless, as the meters currently are, they are completely useless to me as i refuse to run third party programs, if GW2 had one built in i would run it actively just to see what i could do on an average basis.

 

Making meters personal would make it useless, not the opt in/out option, they are different parts of the post.

[Henry.5713]

> @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

>

> Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

 

I sometimes wonder if those complaining ever even used the current DPS meters, let alone if they ever bothered to look at an uploaded report.

If you actually had then you would never make such silly claims as damage meters hurting play at the top level.

Anyone who isn't blinded by their prejudice should have been able to notice the often quite dramatic improvement that happened across most squads ever since they were provided with these logs. More than anything, they make the selfish behaviour you criticized far more obvious to everyone, they show boon uptimes and failed mechanics and anything else people always claim is neglected while all raiders jerk off to their personal DPS.

[Henry.5713]

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > Easiest solution would be to ban the use of all dps meters. If people can't learn to play nicely based on them, then remove them.

>

> Just... stop. Just stop it. Please.

 

Next thing would be to ban the chat.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> > @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > Easiest solution would be to ban the use of all dps meters. If people can't learn to play nicely based on them, then remove them.

> >

> > Just... stop. Just stop it. Please.

>

> Next thing would be to ban the chat.

 

does not go far enough. some emotes could totaly be used for harassment.

[Walhalla.5473]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

> >

> > Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

>

> I sometimes wonder if those complaining ever even used the current DPS meters, let alone if they ever bothered to look at an uploaded report.

> If you actually had then you would never make such silly claims as damage meters hurting play at the top level.

> Anyone who isn't blinded by their prejudice should have been able to notice the often quite dramatic improvement that happened across most squads ever since they were provided with these logs. More than anything, they make the selfish behaviour you criticized far more obvious to everyone, they show boon uptimes and failed mechanics and anything else people always claim is neglected while all raiders jerk off to their personal DPS.

 

I think most people who want the DPS-Meter gone don't have an idea on what would happen if Anet would ban them. It seems like there is no thought put into it at all. I even asked what would happen after such a ban, but so far, there wasn't even an one-word-answer to that question.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > > The other big problem with DPS meters is that they encourage selfish individualized gameplay that often runs counter to the needs of the group. Dodge that damage? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter? Rez that healer? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Move poison out of the squad? Better not - it will hurt my rotation and put me lower on the meter. Share that boon? Better not - (you get the idea).

> > >

> > > Some people look at meters as this great tool, but the truth is they usually hurt far more than they help, even in top level competitive groups.

> >

> > I sometimes wonder if those complaining ever even used the current DPS meters, let alone if they ever bothered to look at an uploaded report.

> > If you actually had then you would never make such silly claims as damage meters hurting play at the top level.

> > Anyone who isn't blinded by their prejudice should have been able to notice the often quite dramatic improvement that happened across most squads ever since they were provided with these logs. More than anything, they make the selfish behaviour you criticized far more obvious to everyone, they show boon uptimes and failed mechanics and anything else people always claim is neglected while all raiders jerk off to their personal DPS.

>

> I think most people who want the DPS-Meter gone don't have an idea on what would happen if Anet would ban them. It seems like there is no thought put into it at all. I even asked what would happen after such a ban, but so far, there wasn't even an one-word-answer to that question.

 

peronally, this would make endgame less interesting for me.

in fact, i think i would actually quit this game for good. i know i am in a super minority spot here, but i do not raid for LI + Loot, my "enjoyment" comes from high % raidar logs.

in general, we would fall back into the "meta dps class or gtfo" era. which wasn´t that flawless if i remember correctly.

[Henry.5713]

@"sigur.9453" Funny, thought I was the only one feeling that way. Most fun I have had recently was while talking over logs with my static, to try and further tweak things whenever we go for something new which usually leads to some rather pleasing results.

 

Probably why I find it this amusing how people still continue to demonize meters as if it wasn't the actual players misbehaving. To quote myself... let's remove the chat next because it allows some players to act mean and toxic.

[Voltekka.2375]

If you think that by removing dps meters, you will make raid-fractal or whatever community less toxic, you couldnt be more wrong. On the contrary, it is an objective meter. Remove it, you go back to "4 FA sword eles 22k ap+, 50 kp, 1350 LI, virgin's blood" or downright instakicking for joining with a class that does at most 28k-30k dps (instead of the top class' 34k dps). A tool becomes toxic or not according to those who use it. Blame the person.

 

EDIT: No, I never ran dps meters.

[santso.9201]

Yeah logs are great way to pinpoint what went wrong with run, player positioning, mechanics and boons.

 

And yeah dps meters allow Power reapers, soulbeasts and scourges get into groups because ppl dont do just spreadsheet dps anymore like it used to Be.

[Condutas.3580]

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> > @"Condutas.3580" said:

> > **Are players allowed to shame others...**

>

> I mean, if you (all hypothetical "you"s) feel shamed by me telling you that you are not good enough at this game for my groups, that's really on you. Idk why so many people seem to take it as a personal attack on their very being. Then again, I don't care about that, so... neither should you?

>

> Stop acting as if this is an attack on you as a human being. Stop being so entitled to getting to play with better players. You aren't, and no amount of complaining about dps meters, kps or anything will change that. Doesn't matter if you complain here or ingame, either. These "tools" just show that you are not on the same level, but believe me, people like me would see that anyways - and people not as good as me would not and would kick the wrong guys sometimes. :)

 

Look at the ammount of information you just assumed to be true.

 

My post simple stated that *if you are shaming others, you are already on the wrong* . And yes, its stated on the rules you cannot shame other players. I didnt talked about getting offended, I didnt talk about caring or not, I didnt even talked about anything related to raids AT ALL.

 

Please, there is no need to be agressive...

 

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> If you think that by removing dps meters, you will make raid-fractal or whatever community less toxic, you couldnt be more wrong. On the contrary, it is an objective meter. Remove it, you go back to "4 FA sword eles 22k ap+, 50 kp, 1350 LI, virgin's blood" or downright instakicking for joining with a class that does at most 28k-30k dps (instead of the top class' 34k dps). A tool becomes toxic or not according to those who use it. Blame the person.

>

> EDIT: No, I never ran dps meters.

 

This guy gets it. Rational thought detected.

 

Best of all, we had the situation without dps meters and people are just holding tight to those rose tinted glasses.

 

Let me bring up some examples:

- exp, speedrun

- 10k AP

- no nerco/ranger

- 80, exp, 10k, speedrun

- zerker only

 

Anyone remember those LFG postings from vanilla pre HoT? I sure do.