DPS shaming

[apharma.3741]

The bar for entry for raids is pretty low tbh.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

About that example: Fractal T4 Dailies + Rec + Chilled

The accuser joined the party, he did not create it. We did the first fractal about 2/3 and then he started to flag a player by publicly talking about his/her dps performance in the way I showed above.

 

I know that the professionals of you do not see the fractals as a place where peak-performance is required. It was unnecessary, we lost about 5-6 minutes overall completion time of the entire run for having that person in the group. Not a single wipe or death.

 

About the question in general:

You have an advantage to everyone in the group who is not actively running ArcDPS. A third eye if you say so that can see beyond the player-characters. As far as I remember, you mostly argument that it is for self-optimization and self-tracking, yet it has a function to track other players performance as well. Everyone is free to use a dps-meter. ~~Everyone is free to use afk-farming~~. Everyone is free to play the market. ... etc. The thing is, if everyone does what everyone is allowed to, this place will not be so nice anymore. You do not care about that, but deep inside you know it.

 

ANet does not want to act in this case. So most of you think that you can do whatever you want. The majority of you is equipped with common sense and would not dare to mess around like a maniac. But some people see the dps-meter as a police-badge on their chest. Same issue we have in several countries with the dash-cams in cars.

 

It would be nice to have an ArcDPS rule package, officially licensed. Even a recommendation-package would be nice. But at the moment, all we have is "ANet allowed the use of ArcDPS" and that is it. A free pass to get crazy with the scanning. If the Rules of Conduct apply to ArcDPS, what should be the case. We would have a base of discussion.

 

You fear the restrictions would limit your abilities and ruin your elite-experience in the only real group-content this game has to offer. Agreed, I do not want to ruin that. There is a simple way to solve that and grant you the right to be as professional as you want to be:

 

Just upload a text on metabattle, call it Terms of Efficiency - T0E. Write in all the things you feel are common standard for a good, efficient group-experience. And put T0E inside your LFG descriptions. Everyone who joins your parties either agrees to the T0E, or will ask what it is about. You can either explain it, or link to it and then people can decide before the run if they really want to go through that.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> Just upload a text on metabattle, call it Terms of Efficiency - T0E. Write in all the things you feel are common standard for a good, efficient group-experience. And put T0E inside your LFG descriptions. Everyone who joins your parties either agrees to the T0E, or will ask what it is about. You can either explain it, or link to it and then people can decide before the run if they really want to go through that.

 

Or simply add the word "experienced" in your LFG description and expect actually experienced people to join. "Experience" is common sense and a person doing 3k is not exactly experienced, more like a freeloader.

[Deepcuts.9740]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Or simply add the word "experienced" in your LFG description and expect actually experienced people to join. "Experience" is common sense and a person doing 3k is not exactly experienced, more like a freeloader.

 

Tried that when I was completing my dungeon collections.

There were always fresh new accounts (under 500AP) joining without any experience. When asked to leave, they were not responding in party chat at all. That is not until they were kicked, then they would suddenly learn english and would start cursing on /w

Text on LFG means nothing to many people. They payed for a game and want to enjoy the game their own way, without considering they are playing it with other human beings.

I joined many carry groups for raids, fractals and dungeons where people specifically stated if we are ok with a carry for a friend. Was ok with me.

Then there are people who just hide behind the "I will not respond to party chat. Maybe they will not notice me". And "If they ask me anything, I will just post in forums that I was harassed"

Imagine these kind of people reacting the same way at their jobs. HR would be sued daily.

 

 

[Blocki.4931]

> @"The Bassist.5410" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > People want to beat content and move on. If somebody is severely underperforming they are a liability to the entire group and that's not something they need to accept.

>

> You're wrong.

 

How so? And why haven't you offered to carry me through raids while I place banners and afk yet?

 

Is it because I don't deal enough DPS?

 

Try being constructive if you disagree with something at least.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> Pointing out that your underpreforiming is shaming now, were have the world gone.

> Start your own squad/parties with no dps meters in lfg and play with like minded people mate.

 

To be fair its about how it was said, and not about the gist of the message. There are countless ways you can tell someone that they are underperforming, publicly shaming them is just one of them.

 

Its about how you say it, not what you say.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> About that example: Fractal T4 Dailies + Rec + Chilled

> The accuser joined the party, he did not create it. We did the first fractal about 2/3 and then he started to flag a player by publicly talking about his/her dps performance in the way I showed above.

 

Your answer should have been: Hey dude, maybe you misread the lfg. It's a chilled run. We don't care about the best performance." Trust me, this guy would have either left the group or started being silent. A tiny minority would still curse around and gives a clear reason of being kicked by the other members of the group.

Life is too short to care about such situations longer than really needed.

 

[shejesa.3712]

Following your logic, telling people they have no clothes on them should be also some kind of shaming.

Basically if you were to fulfill requirements of people you want to team up with there would be no 'shaming'

[Linken.6345]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> Snip

> About the question in general:

> You have an advantage to everyone in the group who is not actively running ArcDPS. A third eye if you say so that can see beyond the player-characters. As far as I remember, you mostly argument that it is for self-optimization and self-tracking, yet it has a function to track other players performance as well. Everyone is free to use a dps-meter. ~~~~Everyone is free to use afk-farming.~~~~ Everyone is free to play the market.

> Snip

 

All fine and dandy except your wrong about one of those afk farming is not allowed.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > About that example: Fractal T4 Dailies + Rec + Chilled

> > The accuser joined the party, he did not create it. We did the first fractal about 2/3 and then he started to flag a player by publicly talking about his/her dps performance in the way I showed above.

>

> Your answer should have been: Hey dude, maybe you misread the lfg. It's a chilled run. We don't care about the best performance." Trust me, this guy would have either left the group or started being silent. A tiny minority would still curse around and gives a clear reason of being kicked by the other members of the group.

> Life is too short to care about such situations longer than really needed.

>

 

This.

 

@ TC

You could have also mutually kicked the new player.

 

Instead you let him be and later you come to the forum asking for Arenanet to step in on something you had control over.

 

I will agree though that it is insane to call people out among PUG groups. I generally simply excuse myself if the group is terrible (as in all 4 other members are clearly clueless) and leave. Or if someone starts harassing one of the group members while himself being poor performance wise, I might take a look at arc and see if this person should be mouthing off.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> About that example: Fractal T4 Dailies + Rec + Chilled

> The accuser joined the party, he did not create it. We did the first fractal about 2/3 and then he started to flag a player by publicly talking about his/her dps performance in the way I showed above.

Why would ANet need to be involved? You had the option of kicking them for undermining the party.

 

> I know that the professionals of you do not see the fractals as a place where peak-performance is required. It was unnecessary, we lost about 5-6 minutes overall completion time of the entire run for having that person in the group. Not a single wipe or death.

In that case, their attitude was the liability, not anyone's DPS.

 

> You have an advantage to everyone in the group who is not actively running ArcDPS. A third eye if you say so that can see beyond the player-characters. As far as I remember, you mostly argument that it is for self-optimization and self-tracking, yet it has a function to track other players performance as well. Everyone is free to use a dps-meter. Everyone is free to use afk-farming. Everyone is free to play the market. ... etc. The thing is, if everyone does what everyone is allowed to, this place will not be so nice anymore. You do not care about that, but deep inside you know it.

On the contrary, I completely disagree. You've conflated a bunch of ideas and tried to draw a conclusion from facts not in evidence.

* If everyone self-optimized (never gonna happen, but we can pretend), then everyone's performance would improve, the "bottom" would rise, coming closer to the middle. People who are adequate wouldn't try to group with people who are in the top 5%. On the whole, I'd expect a happier community.

* If everyone played the market (again, never happening) then prices would largely be lower (speculation and flipping would be much much much less lucrative). Again, people would be more satisfied with the situation because they would understand what's going on.

* No one is free to AFK-farm; it's against the rules. If everyone did inattentive farming, then the markets would go up because there would be a lot fewer mats entering the economy, because it's highly inefficient. Or if you mean people farming inattentively in addition to whatever they are doing, no, not going to happen because it's too dull for most people.

* And finally, you've somehow assumed that "doing what one is allowed to do" is somehow inherently bad. There's no evidence of that.

 

> ANet does not want to act in this case. So most of you think that you can do whatever you want.

"Most of you" ? That's a completely unsupported statement. It's a fact that _some_ people are jerks. Why does it surprise anyone that _some_ people who use DPS meters are, too? It's not the DPS meter that is the problem; jerks found ways to be annoying even before DPS meters were available.

 

> But some people see the dps-meter as a police-badge on their chest.

Yes, some people. Why would you keep playing with those people?

 

 

>

> It would be nice to have an ArcDPS rule package, officially licensed. Even a recommendation-package would be nice.

Explain how that would change anything. How would that prevent jerks from being jerks?

 

> A free pass to get crazy with the scanning. If the Rules of Conduct apply to ArcDPS, what should be the case. We would have a base of discussion.

The rules of conduct apply to one's conduct in the game. Telling someone their DPS isn't against the rules. Being rude isn't against the rules. Calling someone names is, regardless of the reasons behind it.

 

> You fear the restrictions would limit your abilities

What restrictions are you talking about? Are you asking ANet to get into the etiquette business? How would they even enforce it? Are you recommending that no one be allowed to mention DPS? That would be a massive reversal of ANet's opinion that combat data isn't private, it's not protected..

 

> and ruin your elite-experience in the only real group-content this game has to offer.

No, again, you've jumped to a conclusion based on some inadequate assumptions.

 

> Just upload a text on metabattle, call it Terms of Efficiency - T0E. Write in all the things you feel are common standard for a good, efficient group-experience. And put T0E inside your LFG descriptions. Everyone who joins your parties either agrees to the T0E, or will ask what it is about. You can either explain it, or link to it and then people can decide before the run if they really want to go through that.

Honestly, people already do that. The problem is that most people don't read descriptions. You get people joining an "LF DPS" as support; you get people joining an "LF support chrono" as a mirage. You get people saying "casual run, killing all foes" and rushing ahead, as if it's a speed clear.

 

ANet cannot legislate behavior. They can draw a line in the sand identifying egregious conduct and suspend people who go beyond the norm. But they can't ensure that everyone follows whatever local customs one wants to set up.

 

The fact is not everyone in the world is gracious or polite or supportive. And more importantly, not everyone is like everyone else. Some people like trash talk; some are triggered by it. Some like to speed clear, some like to take it easy. Some like to be efficient; some like a more lackadaisical approach. There's nothing wrong with any of that. There's no problem if people are upfront about such preferences. There's only an issue when people assume that others in the party act as if they know everyone else's preferences ... and those assumptions turn out to be wrong.

 

 

 

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > About that example: Fractal T4 Dailies + Rec + Chilled

> > The accuser joined the party, he did not create it. We did the first fractal about 2/3 and then he started to flag a player by publicly talking about his/her dps performance in the way I showed above.

>

> Your answer should have been: Hey dude, maybe you misread the lfg. It's a chilled run. We don't care about the best performance." Trust me, this guy would have either left the group or started being silent. A tiny minority would still curse around and gives a clear reason of being kicked by the other members of the group.

> Life is too short to care about such situations longer than really needed.

>

 

Indeed.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Deepcuts.9740" said:

> Then there are people who just hide behind the "I will not respond to party chat. Maybe they will not notice me". And "If they ask me anything, I will just post in forums that I was harassed"

 

I notice that kind of behavior a lot when my static group is missing some people and we have to pug. The most annoying is when you ask to ping their LI multiple times in a row and they simply don't say anything (because they can't and they used chat codes) then when you kick them for not doing as instructed they get all angry about it. This IS actual harassment and trolling but can't do anything about it I guess, other than kick/block them.

[Zenith.7301]

I have been in groups where I formed a group or joined a sub 30 essence "chill run" PRECISELY because I wanted to play power chrono DPS or herald or reaper without anyone bitching about not being a dragonhunter,holosmith or let alone weaver about it.

 

Because I'm sick of having to play ele/guard for 5 years straight in PuGs and want to play something different for a change, and because the whole point of a game is to have fun.

 

And even in these chill groups I formed, or have joined, I have had instances of even people from the guild MnF passive aggressively whining about if I could change class, or when in a group someone else pulls the "power herald :(" to bitch about a group that was clearly NOT made with " READ WEAVERS ONLY 250+ ESSENCES".

 

I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono) and doing 10-13k DPS and still getting a clean run with no wipes but still having a nolifer who rages because he spent 10-15 more minutes in a fractal instead of his 3x weaver/bs/chrono comp despite a run with no wipes, because god forbid those 10-15 minutes he probably spends more of just meandering around his house is suddenly too precious and worth berating strangers over knowing full well he has the safety of anonymity and would never be so petty in front of a real human being.

 

These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the damn anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy jackass and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > Of the many possible interactions regarding dealing with an underperforming player, **publicly** calling them out in a rude away (see Deimos' post above) is a direct violation of Anet's own RoC, and yes this includes OP's example.

>

> I was in a group for Matthias once, asked for an experienced person to fill the last spot, got a Thief that pinged 250 Li (once, I should've known by then that one ping means nothing), and during the fight they didn't know how to cleanse, instead they stayed on the group and caused a wipe. Should I've been polite towards that person? No, he didn't deserve it, I pointed out that they were a cheat, a fraud and a liar, then simply kicked them. Was he polite towards me? Of course not, his behavior was abusive and insulting towards me and the rest of my group, by Anet's raw definition he should've been reported and banned. If you want to ban people for being rude by dps shaming, let's ban people for lying, pinging Li to join groups they don't deserve, and being really rude towards other players too. That's way worse than dps shaming.

 

I actually agree with that. Lying your way into a group and being offensive to people not carrying you is also a (graver) violation of Anet's principle of not distressing other people's playtime.

 

My last argument stands however, and I don't think they actually want to apply their usual terms when it comes to "elite" instanced content. Letting player interactions act out by themselves is arguably better since they know the community is bound to be a little insulated anyway, as a consequence of the game mode itself. As I said, many of us are missing the point here, including the OP: yes these things **can be reported**, but Anet is probably **not going to intervene** except for quite extreme cases, because it's too much work/it depreciates the self-established community standards.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Deimos.4263" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

>

> They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

 

And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

 

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.

There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.

I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

 

> These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

 

[Zenith.7301]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Deimos.4263" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

> >

> > They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

>

> And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

>

> > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

> Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.

> There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.

> I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

>

> > These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

> And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

>

 

Because it's

 

a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

b) Class comp dependent.

c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

 

And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep. Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the asshole PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

 

It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

 

Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

[Tyson.5160]

Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

 

“While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Deimos.4263" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

> > >

> > > They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

> >

> > And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

> >

> > > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

> > Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.

> > There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.

> > I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

> >

> > > These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

> > And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

> >

>

> Because it's

>

> a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

> b) Class comp dependent.

To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

> c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

>

> And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

 

>Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

 

Well, you're right that there's **some** people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.

That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

 

>

> It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

>

That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.

Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

 

Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

 

> Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.

I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

 

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

>

> “While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

 

I believe you forgot your point?

[Tyson.5160]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Deimos.4263" said:

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

> > > >

> > > > They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

> > >

> > > And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

> > >

> > > > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > > I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

> > > Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.

> > > There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.

> > > I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

> > >

> > > > These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

> > > And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

> > >

> >

> > Because it's

> >

> > a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

> One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

> > b) Class comp dependent.

> To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

> > c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

> Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

> >

> > And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

> 13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

>

> >Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

>

> Well, you're right that there's **some** people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.

> That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

>

> >

> > It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

> >

> That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.

> Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

>

> Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

>

> > Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

> Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.

> I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

>

>

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

> >

> > “While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

>

> I believe you forgot your point?

 

No, just a point of reference of expectations of conduct for playing Gw2.

 

Incidents like this happen in PvP and players get a few days banned from the game, much like in the forums.

[Zenith.7301]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Deimos.4263" said:

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > Basically, you're asking whether ANet should punish people for being rude; they don't and they won't.

> > > >

> > > > They can and they should, at least according to their own ToS. You can inform a player their DPS is sub-par without being rude about it. It is possible.

> > >

> > > And yet, as polite as you are there's always people that will take any criticism as constructive as you make it, as harassment.

> > >

> > > > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > > I mean, there's a difference of a person doing 3k DPS (which I don't even buy, that's just plain impossible unless you're playing a magi druid or minstrel chrono)

> > > Get a DPS meter... You'll be surprised. I've outdpsed "DPS" Necromancers, thieves and Elementalists on full Minstrel Chrono. There's a lot of people out there that don't know what they're doing.

> > > There's people that just copy the builds from the page, don't even read why the build works, or how. And then go do content and just don't do anything, because they don't know how their rotation works, don't know how to avoid taking damage, and don't know how to fight, so they die a lot (especially thieves and Eles) and don't do squat. Or simply are playing too defensive builds that have little to no synergy, and don't work.

> > > I've carried so many of these people on the backs of decent groups that i really lost count. People complaining about the "elitists" should shut up and be thankful that they have someone to carry them through content. Because if you're doing 1k DPS on a DPS class with a decent support component, you're not going to be doing any better outsie.

> > >

> > > > These are usually the same people who think they can jump bug flux bombs on Shattered Observatory and end up dropping them on top of Arkk occassionally or on Siax or puking over everybody or spawning a nightmare in 99CM because god forbid they move off the boss to do a mechanic and their precious meter drops. Same with anomalies on Arkk, you could just kill the kitten anomaly which takes less than 5 seconds to be safe instead of being a greedy kitten and trying to skip every phase and remove every challenge possible from an encounter by trying to brute force it with burst DPS. Then things go wrong when they find out not every group can burst efficiently and they throw a tantrum when said group can still pull off mechanics cleanly for a kill with no wipes.

> > > And yet, if there's a more efficient way of doing things by "brute forcing" through mechanics, why wouldn't you?

> > >

> >

> > Because it's

> >

> > a) A pug, which means less coordination than usual.

> One more reason to overcompensate and want better prepared players?

> > b) Class comp dependent.

> To a point, there's 2, maybe 3 slots that need to be more or less fixed (the chrono, and then Druid and Banner warrior, which are both somewhat replaceable), the other slots are totally interchangeable. And even then you can replace those with other comps, but those are more risk prone, so less used. And actually need more fixed classes to compensate for the lack of the chrono.

> > c)Totally irrelevant as to whether the content can be completed cleanly within a reasonable amount of time by your average PUG group.

> Is it? I don't find it irrelevant or unreasonable to expect that i don't need more than 1h to complete all fractals. And yet if i don't take a group with somewhat decent DPS and compositions, i'll very likely pass that mark, especially if i hit some of the longer fractals like SO.

> >

> > And that's really the problem. I remember when mirage was busted and people thought 13-14k DPS was ridiculously high, now they've overbuffed a bunch of power specs and now people are absurdly stupid about not bringing certain classes that would have passed muster back then because other classes now have more power creep.

> 13-14k FPS busted? At PoF launch? LOL We were long past that mark.

>

> >Back when revenant at 30-31k was considered really high in a world of 27-29k benchmarks, and now 29-30k is "trash" and gets you a torrent of whining and petty remarks by the kitten PUG who now deems any class that does not have a 33k+ benchmark as "terrible" and not wanted in a group.

>

> Well, you're right that there's **some** people that will be like that. For fractals i'll take anyone, really, and if it's going well, i'll happily carry those 1kdps guys. But if it isn't i'll start asking people below 10k DPS on ArcDPS if they can't do better. And depending on their response, a vote kick might follow.

> That's basically my benchmark for fractals, 10k DPS. Can't speak much for raids since i'm not a big expert on those since most of my guild mates left before those were a thing, and i think that's not the kind of content that's fun without a proper group. I've done several with pugs, and an allied guild, but then started having less time to play, and kinda stopped.

>

> >

> > It's these increasinly ramping requirements that are totally extraneous but somehow get treated as if they were vital or it's the end of the world.

> >

> That's because the game itself lends itself to that power creep. For one, they keep adding the power creep because instead of making Elites interesting they choose to make them OP. Then it's a hard struggle to get the game to a decent balance, which previously was only starting to form when they released the new set of elites.

> Add to that the fact that Raids have Enrage Timers, which by themselves function as a pure DPS check, and you get the reason why this is such an issue.

>

> Well, that and because for half of this game's existence this was a basically everything goes, just play berserker gear and you'll be top notch. Now it started requiring a bit more effort and offering a bit more variety, and some people chafe.

>

> > Sitting in a LFG waiting for 10 minutes or more for a BS warrior when taking another DPS in the amount of time you spent waiting for the BS warrior would have yielded the same clear time.

> Honestly... This sentence of yours is just demonstrative of my previous point. I've spent hours in a few other games waiting for a healer or a tank to be on so often, and now here we are complaining about a severely hyperbolic 10 minutes wait.

> I literally never had this happen to me in Fractals, and rarely in Raids. In fractals, i can do well without the banner guy, and usually play with one or two other friends who help cover the "required" slots, which helps. But even when solo, and outside CM (where i'm more careful, and also there's less people willing to go), i get a group going in usually under 5 minutes.

>

>

 

 

1- Overcompensation for lack of coordination is already done through presumably the kill proof requirements. Class nazi as SC/qT themselves coined the term are an entirely different matter. The degree of overcompensation is also what's being discussed.

 

2- I have run plenty of 3 DPS no BS/non-weaver stacking comps that clear fractals in less than 45 minutes.

 

In fact, often the greatest waste of time is when you form a group, get a scourge or revenant, and then unless your group already had a druid or chrono, the waiting times for that group to fill shoot up astronomically even with lax requirements. It's an infection that has seeped into PUG mentality just as much as when people would scoff at thieves, rangers, and necromancers in explorable dungeons.

 

3- Class comp dependency for bursting still exists. Case in point, you might have trouble skipping phases with a condi renegade or power dps chrono or condi engineer, but at the same time have pretty reasonable clearing and clean runs for each of those bosses that don't translate to more than maybe 1-2 minutes kill time difference for the CM's. It virtually hurts no one in these circumstances to just opt to do the mechanics, which is how the encounter was designed to begin with; instead of berating people because they did 12-14k DPS instead of bursting 20k+.

 

4- Mirage on your average PoF release CM were doing little more than 14k-15k DPS tops for most CM runs before people started whining about their easy damage, and for optimal runs of course weavers were already king. Point is, nobody whined about 13-14k DPS on CM's because outside weavers few people objected to 10-12k DPS by then.

 

5- On the bare minimum, we agree. I tend to prefer a 12k DPS standard of performance for non-phase heavy fights (skorvald tends to depress the DPS of classes without snap burst a lot, and whoever gets to cream the adds first usually looks a ton better than the rest). Virtually every class spec can pull off 12k DPS. If they fail that test and land more in the 8-9k range, I whisper them the SC website at the end of the run. If they did considerably less, I usually just avoid them in future groups. I never go out of my way to humiliate people, however. Even when you carry a person, toxic aggressiveness is simply not admissible.

 

6- Raid enrage timers are stupidly lax. They're almost nonexistent unless you have seriously screwed up mechanics and you have people in knights gear sneaked in. In all these years of raiding, and I have PuG'd a ton, I have NEVER wiped due to an enrage timer. The closest I've ever gotten was Gorseval.

 

Hell, the hardest raid boss to do training runs in imo, Matthias, is still an extremely forgiving timer.

 

People have obsessed over clear times long before DPS enrage timers existed. I suspect it's because the content is so relatively easier compared to FFXIV savage mode or WoW mythic's level of encounter complexity that since people clear the content so quickly, and there's little in terms of progression, they occupy their time instead with optimizing clear times so they can go make gold somewhere else since raiding is not particularly lucrative to begin with and even fractal CM's are hardly more lucrative than RIBA farms or spending similar amounts of time playing the AH.

 

7- You may not have experienced it, but I have. Literally today as well after reset, where we filled a group at :45 and ended up running at :57 because the druid and chrono came in and saw no warrior, were told we would run without BS, and it became a game of dancing chairs as people came in, left, came in, left, came in, until finally we got a bunch that didn't care that a BS warrior would not join.

 

I have even carried out experiments where I swap the DPS comps in LFG to include any class that is not a weaver/guard/holo, and if a necro or revenant is in the group, wait times to fill go up substantially. Want to play power DPS chrono or even soulbeast? The moment people see two of the same class in LFG and it's not weavers or guardian, wait times also shoot up. Even in the case of having a thief in the group yields longer wait times than a full group of weaver/holo/guardian by far.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

>

> “While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

 

Yes exactly why players joining groups they shouldn't, is breaking the rules. Give a ban to those lying or pinging LI and dps shaming will also go away, plus it will make the requirements for instanced content more lax, as you won't have to deal with this kind of abuse and harassment anymore.

[Henry.5713]

Are people allowed to shame someone for the missing boons and heals? If so then we should probably remove boons on the party UI and look for some fix to replace health bars with something else because you know there is going to be that one person who is going to be a jerk about it. The thing is, there are obviously going to be jerks out there. ArcDPS or any other meters did not cause this.

DPS meters make personal DPS and thus personal performances more obvious. They actually put some personal responsibility on all of those who always prefered to blame their healers and supports and the damage of everyone else but their own. They may have brought the worst out in some but they also made many players improve greatly or, well, stopped some players from leeching the way they used to.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > Just upload a text on metabattle, call it Terms of Efficiency - T0E. Write in all the things you feel are common standard for a good, efficient group-experience. And put T0E inside your LFG descriptions. Everyone who joins your parties either agrees to the T0E, or will ask what it is about. You can either explain it, or link to it and then people can decide before the run if they really want to go through that.

>

> Or simply add the word "experienced" in your LFG description and expect actually experienced people to join. "Experience" is common sense and a person doing 3k is not exactly experienced, more like a freeloader.

 

Always used "experienced" as a requirement myself but it has always been hit and miss. All the way back to when people considered themselves experienced if they had completed a dungeon once. Not to mention those who simply refuse to listen or those thinking along the lines of "I am entitled to be able to join no matter what they say" or "Who cares, they won't notice anyways". Pretty much where half of the complaining about DPS meters even comes from.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Since we are talking about it. Here is bullet number one from the Rules of Conduct for GW2.

> >

> > “While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

>

> Yes exactly why players joining groups they shouldn't, is breaking the rules. Give a ban to those lying or pinging LI and dps shaming will also go away, plus it will make the requirements for instanced content more lax, as you won't have to deal with this kind of abuse and harassment anymore.

 

Not sure if it’s necessarily going to go away entirely. Your still going to have the idiots that still shame people that do moderately decent dps and still give people shit even when you win the fight without problems. The thing is the chat is all logged. If people start going crazy report em and leave the party.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > > Just upload a text on metabattle, call it Terms of Efficiency - T0E. Write in all the things you feel are common standard for a good, efficient group-experience. And put T0E inside your LFG descriptions. Everyone who joins your parties either agrees to the T0E, or will ask what it is about. You can either explain it, or link to it and then people can decide before the run if they really want to go through that.

> >

> > Or simply add the word "experienced" in your LFG description and expect actually experienced people to join. "Experience" is common sense and a person doing 3k is not exactly experienced, more like a freeloader.

>

> Always used "experienced" as a requirement myself but it has always been hit and miss. All the way back to when people considered themselves experienced if they had completed a dungeon once. Not to mention those who simply refuse to listen or those thinking along the lines of "I am entitled to be able to join no matter what they say" or "Who cares, they won't notice anyways". Pretty much where half of the complaining about DPS meters even comes from.

 

I noticed that too when my groups want to fill last spots with randoms. You add "Experienced" or "Know the fight" or anything like it, and you still get first timers that think are are entitled to your time. I was responding to that comment about making a Terms of Efficiency, upload it, and have everyone read it when joining the group, that's too much trouble and not really needed, just adding "experienced only" should be enough, at least it gives you more than enough justification to point them out and then kick them.