Voltekka.2375 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > To get those 10k LB AA, Ranger does need "some skill" to play. You are running a full Zerker Ranger that is glass and will die if the wind blows on it. Not to mention you also have to time everything right to get all the bonuses needed to do that all while hoping your opponent doesn't see you first and dodge, reflect, retal, invuln, evade, or stealth. What you are talking about mostly is luck. Most Rangers get lucky to hit somebody with that much damage. So either that Ranger had some really good luck or you had some really bad luck at the time of that hit. In that case, feelsbadman. Ranger has been the redheaded stepchild of WvW for the longest time. I'm glad that it has a small place now in WvW. Would like to see it's role increase more though to be honest. > > > > > > > > The interesting part of this comment is it was essentially the same point raised by theives justifying deaths judgement and malicious backstab. > > > > > > Difference is that Thieves have Stealth and High Mobility, Rangers do not. While yes Rangers have SOME Stealth it is nowhere near on par with Thief. Same goes for the Mobility. In order to use Ranger mobility they have to have Owl Pet and Swoop from GS. Which if you are using Owl that will reduce the amount of damage being put out therefore reducing that chance of a 10k AA. I'd say it is a little bit more difficult for Ranger than it is for Thief to set up the necessary buffs to do the damage. > > > > rangers dont have stealth and high mobility? and also, since HoT rangers had allways been one of the most disgusting things to fight against. > > Never said they don't have it. Said that if they were to trait for Stealth and Mobility they would then take away from their ability to do the amount of damage you are complaining about. To get that damage they need to merge with Smokescale. Smokescale provides Ferocious buff to Ranger increasing power by 200 and ferocity by 100. If they are merged with Owl for mobility on the F1 then they are using Supportive buff, which gives you 100 vitality and an increase in outgoing healing by 25%. If they try to build for Stealth that means using Druid instead of Soulbeast, Rune of the Trapper, and using Traps instead of Sic' Em. Sic' Em provides for a 40% damage buff. If they are going for maximum damage then they will be running Rune of the Scholar x6. And NO Rangers have NOT been the "most disgusting things to fight against" since HoT. EVERY class besides Ranger has been the most disgusting thing to fight against. Spellbreakers with their OP WoD, Scourges with their corrupts and red carpet of death, Thieves with their Perma-stealth, FB with their insane boons, stab, and healing, Mesmers with their OP condi damage and clone regeneration......need I say more? Scourge was overpowered in blobs? It got nerfed. Firebrand was overpowered in blobs? It gets nerfed. Spellbreaker WoD was overpowered in blobs? It got nerfed. Ranger is overpowered in roaming? High time it gets nerfed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > To get those 10k LB AA, Ranger does need "some skill" to play. You are running a full Zerker Ranger that is glass and will die if the wind blows on it. Not to mention you also have to time everything right to get all the bonuses needed to do that all while hoping your opponent doesn't see you first and dodge, reflect, retal, invuln, evade, or stealth. What you are talking about mostly is luck. Most Rangers get lucky to hit somebody with that much damage. So either that Ranger had some really good luck or you had some really bad luck at the time of that hit. In that case, feelsbadman. Ranger has been the redheaded stepchild of WvW for the longest time. I'm glad that it has a small place now in WvW. Would like to see it's role increase more though to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > The interesting part of this comment is it was essentially the same point raised by theives justifying deaths judgement and malicious backstab. > > > > > > > > Difference is that Thieves have Stealth and High Mobility, Rangers do not. While yes Rangers have SOME Stealth it is nowhere near on par with Thief. Same goes for the Mobility. In order to use Ranger mobility they have to have Owl Pet and Swoop from GS. Which if you are using Owl that will reduce the amount of damage being put out therefore reducing that chance of a 10k AA. I'd say it is a little bit more difficult for Ranger than it is for Thief to set up the necessary buffs to do the damage. > > > > > > rangers dont have stealth and high mobility? and also, since HoT rangers had allways been one of the most disgusting things to fight against. > > > > Never said they don't have it. Said that if they were to trait for Stealth and Mobility they would then take away from their ability to do the amount of damage you are complaining about. To get that damage they need to merge with Smokescale. Smokescale provides Ferocious buff to Ranger increasing power by 200 and ferocity by 100. If they are merged with Owl for mobility on the F1 then they are using Supportive buff, which gives you 100 vitality and an increase in outgoing healing by 25%. If they try to build for Stealth that means using Druid instead of Soulbeast, Rune of the Trapper, and using Traps instead of Sic' Em. Sic' Em provides for a 40% damage buff. If they are going for maximum damage then they will be running Rune of the Scholar x6. And NO Rangers have NOT been the "most disgusting things to fight against" since HoT. EVERY class besides Ranger has been the most disgusting thing to fight against. Spellbreakers with their OP WoD, Scourges with their corrupts and red carpet of death, Thieves with their Perma-stealth, FB with their insane boons, stab, and healing, Mesmers with their OP condi damage and clone regeneration......need I say more? > > Scourge was overpowered in blobs? It got nerfed. Firebrand was overpowered in blobs? It gets nerfed. > Spellbreaker WoD was overpowered in blobs? It got nerfed. > Ranger is overpowered in roaming? High time it gets nerfed Along with Mesmer, Thief, and Engineer. I mean if we are gonna nerf a roaming class, let's nerf them all. Balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > To get those 10k LB AA, Ranger does need "some skill" to play. You are running a full Zerker Ranger that is glass and will die if the wind blows on it. Not to mention you also have to time everything right to get all the bonuses needed to do that all while hoping your opponent doesn't see you first and dodge, reflect, retal, invuln, evade, or stealth. What you are talking about mostly is luck. Most Rangers get lucky to hit somebody with that much damage. So either that Ranger had some really good luck or you had some really bad luck at the time of that hit. In that case, feelsbadman. Ranger has been the redheaded stepchild of WvW for the longest time. I'm glad that it has a small place now in WvW. Would like to see it's role increase more though to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > The interesting part of this comment is it was essentially the same point raised by theives justifying deaths judgement and malicious backstab. > > > > > > > > Difference is that Thieves have Stealth and High Mobility, Rangers do not. While yes Rangers have SOME Stealth it is nowhere near on par with Thief. Same goes for the Mobility. In order to use Ranger mobility they have to have Owl Pet and Swoop from GS. Which if you are using Owl that will reduce the amount of damage being put out therefore reducing that chance of a 10k AA. I'd say it is a little bit more difficult for Ranger than it is for Thief to set up the necessary buffs to do the damage. > > > > > > rangers dont have stealth and high mobility? and also, since HoT rangers had allways been one of the most disgusting things to fight against. > > > > Never said they don't have it. Said that if they were to trait for Stealth and Mobility they would then take away from their ability to do the amount of damage you are complaining about. To get that damage they need to merge with Smokescale. Smokescale provides Ferocious buff to Ranger increasing power by 200 and ferocity by 100. If they are merged with Owl for mobility on the F1 then they are using Supportive buff, which gives you 100 vitality and an increase in outgoing healing by 25%. If they try to build for Stealth that means using Druid instead of Soulbeast, Rune of the Trapper, and using Traps instead of Sic' Em. Sic' Em provides for a 40% damage buff. If they are going for maximum damage then they will be running Rune of the Scholar x6. And NO Rangers have NOT been the "most disgusting things to fight against" since HoT. EVERY class besides Ranger has been the most disgusting thing to fight against. Spellbreakers with their OP WoD, Scourges with their corrupts and red carpet of death, Thieves with their Perma-stealth, FB with their insane boons, stab, and healing, Mesmers with their OP condi damage and clone regeneration......need I say more? > > you do know tho that there is other birds, also one with the same buff as smokescale and the mobility of owl right? (smokescale is for stealth, not just the buff) Yes, but Owl and Smokescale are the most commonly used pets by Soulbeasts. It's even on the Metabuild at MetaBattle. Come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > To get those 10k LB AA, Ranger does need "some skill" to play. You are running a full Zerker Ranger that is glass and will die if the wind blows on it. Not to mention you also have to time everything right to get all the bonuses needed to do that all while hoping your opponent doesn't see you first and dodge, reflect, retal, invuln, evade, or stealth. What you are talking about mostly is luck. Most Rangers get lucky to hit somebody with that much damage. So either that Ranger had some really good luck or you had some really bad luck at the time of that hit. In that case, feelsbadman. Ranger has been the redheaded stepchild of WvW for the longest time. I'm glad that it has a small place now in WvW. Would like to see it's role increase more though to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > The interesting part of this comment is it was essentially the same point raised by theives justifying deaths judgement and malicious backstab. > > > > > > > > Difference is that Thieves have Stealth and High Mobility, Rangers do not. While yes Rangers have SOME Stealth it is nowhere near on par with Thief. Same goes for the Mobility. In order to use Ranger mobility they have to have Owl Pet and Swoop from GS. Which if you are using Owl that will reduce the amount of damage being put out therefore reducing that chance of a 10k AA. I'd say it is a little bit more difficult for Ranger than it is for Thief to set up the necessary buffs to do the damage. > > > > > > rangers dont have stealth and high mobility? and also, since HoT rangers had allways been one of the most disgusting things to fight against. > > > > Never said they don't have it. Said that if they were to trait for Stealth and Mobility they would then take away from their ability to do the amount of damage you are complaining about. To get that damage they need to merge with Smokescale. Smokescale provides Ferocious buff to Ranger increasing power by 200 and ferocity by 100. If they are merged with Owl for mobility on the F1 then they are using Supportive buff, which gives you 100 vitality and an increase in outgoing healing by 25%. If they try to build for Stealth that means using Druid instead of Soulbeast, Rune of the Trapper, and using Traps instead of Sic' Em. Sic' Em provides for a 40% damage buff. If they are going for maximum damage then they will be running Rune of the Scholar x6. And NO Rangers have NOT been the "most disgusting things to fight against" since HoT. EVERY class besides Ranger has been the most disgusting thing to fight against. Spellbreakers with their OP WoD, Scourges with their corrupts and red carpet of death, Thieves with their Perma-stealth, FB with their insane boons, stab, and healing, Mesmers with their OP condi damage and clone regeneration......need I say more? > > You dont need overkill levels of Stealth like Thief, longbow and smokescale give you enough...and yes, Druid is one of the most broken and unfun builds to fight against, hve no idea how CA didnt get the same nerfs that the sPvP version got it. CA didn't get nerfed as hard as sPvP because it's the only way a Druid can still be somewhat viable in a zerg IF a commander is willing to let a Ranger to join in on their zerg that is. Smokescale and LB3 stealth is not that long especially now with the new Painted and Marked from Towers, Sentries, and Traps. You act like those two stealth abilities are game breaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > > To get those 10k LB AA, Ranger does need "some skill" to play. You are running a full Zerker Ranger that is glass and will die if the wind blows on it. Not to mention you also have to time everything right to get all the bonuses needed to do that all while hoping your opponent doesn't see you first and dodge, reflect, retal, invuln, evade, or stealth. What you are talking about mostly is luck. Most Rangers get lucky to hit somebody with that much damage. So either that Ranger had some really good luck or you had some really bad luck at the time of that hit. In that case, feelsbadman. Ranger has been the redheaded stepchild of WvW for the longest time. I'm glad that it has a small place now in WvW. Would like to see it's role increase more though to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > The interesting part of this comment is it was essentially the same point raised by theives justifying deaths judgement and malicious backstab. > > > > > > > > > > Difference is that Thieves have Stealth and High Mobility, Rangers do not. While yes Rangers have SOME Stealth it is nowhere near on par with Thief. Same goes for the Mobility. In order to use Ranger mobility they have to have Owl Pet and Swoop from GS. Which if you are using Owl that will reduce the amount of damage being put out therefore reducing that chance of a 10k AA. I'd say it is a little bit more difficult for Ranger than it is for Thief to set up the necessary buffs to do the damage. > > > > > > > > rangers dont have stealth and high mobility? and also, since HoT rangers had allways been one of the most disgusting things to fight against. > > > > > > Never said they don't have it. Said that if they were to trait for Stealth and Mobility they would then take away from their ability to do the amount of damage you are complaining about. To get that damage they need to merge with Smokescale. Smokescale provides Ferocious buff to Ranger increasing power by 200 and ferocity by 100. If they are merged with Owl for mobility on the F1 then they are using Supportive buff, which gives you 100 vitality and an increase in outgoing healing by 25%. If they try to build for Stealth that means using Druid instead of Soulbeast, Rune of the Trapper, and using Traps instead of Sic' Em. Sic' Em provides for a 40% damage buff. If they are going for maximum damage then they will be running Rune of the Scholar x6. And NO Rangers have NOT been the "most disgusting things to fight against" since HoT. EVERY class besides Ranger has been the most disgusting thing to fight against. Spellbreakers with their OP WoD, Scourges with their corrupts and red carpet of death, Thieves with their Perma-stealth, FB with their insane boons, stab, and healing, Mesmers with their OP condi damage and clone regeneration......need I say more? > > > > You dont need overkill levels of Stealth like Thief, longbow and smokescale give you enough...and yes, Druid is one of the most broken and unfun builds to fight against, hve no idea how CA didnt get the same nerfs that the sPvP version got it. > > CA didn't get nerfed as hard as sPvP because it's the only way a Druid can still be somewhat viable in a zerg IF a commander is willing to let a Ranger to join in on their zerg that is. **Smokescale and LB3 stealth is not that long especially now with the new Painted and Marked from Towers, Sentries, and Traps**. You act like those two stealth abilities are game breaking. Which is the same thing Thief notes as well? I am not seeing the lack of a parallel here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing) > > > > Personally I run condi rev for roaming I think it's way better than power because it can actually deal with condis. If you want power spike for roaming bring a thief or ranger or even a warrior imo. Still can't 1v1 condi mirages consistently but I have a way easier time than when I run power and I am much harder to single target down in a group fight and much easier to keep alive if I have support. > > > > Buffing shiro's condi survivability would probably amount to adding more cleanse to riposting because I doubt they'd add cleanse to phase or impossible odds. Riposting is one of those skills that can easily become broken if it does too much because it's already a stun break a dodge roll an i frame and movement condi cleanse. They could put cleanses on the glint/shiro f2s but that wouldn't likely be enough if it's shiro/glint because you need a metric ton of frequent cleanses right now to deal with the amount of condis mirages can pump out. They could put more cleanses on staff or perhaps more cleanses on legend swap but then that would bleed into other builds. They could put more condi cleanse on the shield or revert the heal on shield 5 but that could get pretty broken pretty fast depending on what they did. Either way making shiro power rev condi survivable would probably break rev at that scale because other than being extremely vulnerable to condis shiro rev is pretty amazing. Like I said you might run into a situation where all of a sudden shiro rev would just push everything else out of the roaming meta like what happened when rev first came out but for different reasons. Shiro Rev needs to be severely vulnerable to condis for it to be balanced and I'm saying this as probably one of the most dedicated rev mains left in the game at this point. > > > > > Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot. > > > > I fundamentally disagree. Compcraft is more interesting the more structural weaknesses the group has to overcome through design, strategy and tactics. > > > > > Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile. > > > > If you're one of these people who thinks balance is fundamentally about build diversity rather than extreme tradeoffs then yeah probably. > > > > > Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here. > > > > There's no dictionary to refer to no but in this game the common usage of "small scale" isn't a group or less. In my experience there are basically four scales of play: roaming, small, medium and large. Roaming is a group or less, small is 5-15, medium is usually something like 15-30 and large is 30+. > > > > > Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true. > > > > Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs. > > > > > Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game. > > > > Perhaps but you seem to be incredibly biased on this topic which makes it hard for you to see outside your own particular interest here. > > > > Kindly allow me to chip in. > I think that claiming revs as weak to condis is not accurate anymore after the runes/sigils patch changes. > > I've fought revs who run cleansing sigils and runes of resistance and they put up a hell of a fight against condi classes. One even beat my condi necro using a glint/jalis build. I would say the fight was 60/40 in my favour but I got outplayed by him and lost. > > I think revs on the whole needs to rethink their builds with all the new condi clear tools available because I don't think they are as weak to condi as they were before the patch. I agree since the changes I don't think anyone can claim rev is weak to conditions. You can also take anti-toxin runes so everytime you cleanse 1 condition you cleanse an extra condition, pair that up with food for cleansing on heal and your heal removes 2 conditions, renewing wave cleanses 3, cleansing sigil cleanses 4, legend swap cleanses 2 and reposting shadows cleanses...not sure tbh but likely 1 damaging condition + all movement conditions. You can run these two on a lot of classes and be almost immune to conditions on the whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > > > To get those 10k LB AA, Ranger does need "some skill" to play. You are running a full Zerker Ranger that is glass and will die if the wind blows on it. Not to mention you also have to time everything right to get all the bonuses needed to do that all while hoping your opponent doesn't see you first and dodge, reflect, retal, invuln, evade, or stealth. What you are talking about mostly is luck. Most Rangers get lucky to hit somebody with that much damage. So either that Ranger had some really good luck or you had some really bad luck at the time of that hit. In that case, feelsbadman. Ranger has been the redheaded stepchild of WvW for the longest time. I'm glad that it has a small place now in WvW. Would like to see it's role increase more though to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The interesting part of this comment is it was essentially the same point raised by theives justifying deaths judgement and malicious backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > Difference is that Thieves have Stealth and High Mobility, Rangers do not. While yes Rangers have SOME Stealth it is nowhere near on par with Thief. Same goes for the Mobility. In order to use Ranger mobility they have to have Owl Pet and Swoop from GS. Which if you are using Owl that will reduce the amount of damage being put out therefore reducing that chance of a 10k AA. I'd say it is a little bit more difficult for Ranger than it is for Thief to set up the necessary buffs to do the damage. > > > > > > > > > > rangers dont have stealth and high mobility? and also, since HoT rangers had allways been one of the most disgusting things to fight against. > > > > > > > > Never said they don't have it. Said that if they were to trait for Stealth and Mobility they would then take away from their ability to do the amount of damage you are complaining about. To get that damage they need to merge with Smokescale. Smokescale provides Ferocious buff to Ranger increasing power by 200 and ferocity by 100. If they are merged with Owl for mobility on the F1 then they are using Supportive buff, which gives you 100 vitality and an increase in outgoing healing by 25%. If they try to build for Stealth that means using Druid instead of Soulbeast, Rune of the Trapper, and using Traps instead of Sic' Em. Sic' Em provides for a 40% damage buff. If they are going for maximum damage then they will be running Rune of the Scholar x6. And NO Rangers have NOT been the "most disgusting things to fight against" since HoT. EVERY class besides Ranger has been the most disgusting thing to fight against. Spellbreakers with their OP WoD, Scourges with their corrupts and red carpet of death, Thieves with their Perma-stealth, FB with their insane boons, stab, and healing, Mesmers with their OP condi damage and clone regeneration......need I say more? > > > > > > You dont need overkill levels of Stealth like Thief, longbow and smokescale give you enough...and yes, Druid is one of the most broken and unfun builds to fight against, hve no idea how CA didnt get the same nerfs that the sPvP version got it. > > > > CA didn't get nerfed as hard as sPvP because it's the only way a Druid can still be somewhat viable in a zerg IF a commander is willing to let a Ranger to join in on their zerg that is. **Smokescale and LB3 stealth is not that long especially now with the new Painted and Marked from Towers, Sentries, and Traps**. You act like those two stealth abilities are game breaking. > > Which is the same thing Thief notes as well? > > I am not seeing the lack of a parallel here? > I give up. Nothing I say will ever change anybodies mind on here. I really don't know why I even bother sometimes. No argument has ever been won over the internet. You have your mind set and made up and nothing I or anybody says will change that. Ranger is in a good spot right now. It's been a long time since it has. Now that it is, everybody and their uncle's dog wants to nerf it back down into oblivion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > > > > To get those 10k LB AA, Ranger does need "some skill" to play. You are running a full Zerker Ranger that is glass and will die if the wind blows on it. Not to mention you also have to time everything right to get all the bonuses needed to do that all while hoping your opponent doesn't see you first and dodge, reflect, retal, invuln, evade, or stealth. What you are talking about mostly is luck. Most Rangers get lucky to hit somebody with that much damage. So either that Ranger had some really good luck or you had some really bad luck at the time of that hit. In that case, feelsbadman. Ranger has been the redheaded stepchild of WvW for the longest time. I'm glad that it has a small place now in WvW. Would like to see it's role increase more though to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The interesting part of this comment is it was essentially the same point raised by theives justifying deaths judgement and malicious backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Difference is that Thieves have Stealth and High Mobility, Rangers do not. While yes Rangers have SOME Stealth it is nowhere near on par with Thief. Same goes for the Mobility. In order to use Ranger mobility they have to have Owl Pet and Swoop from GS. Which if you are using Owl that will reduce the amount of damage being put out therefore reducing that chance of a 10k AA. I'd say it is a little bit more difficult for Ranger than it is for Thief to set up the necessary buffs to do the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > rangers dont have stealth and high mobility? and also, since HoT rangers had allways been one of the most disgusting things to fight against. > > > > > > > > > > Never said they don't have it. Said that if they were to trait for Stealth and Mobility they would then take away from their ability to do the amount of damage you are complaining about. To get that damage they need to merge with Smokescale. Smokescale provides Ferocious buff to Ranger increasing power by 200 and ferocity by 100. If they are merged with Owl for mobility on the F1 then they are using Supportive buff, which gives you 100 vitality and an increase in outgoing healing by 25%. If they try to build for Stealth that means using Druid instead of Soulbeast, Rune of the Trapper, and using Traps instead of Sic' Em. Sic' Em provides for a 40% damage buff. If they are going for maximum damage then they will be running Rune of the Scholar x6. And NO Rangers have NOT been the "most disgusting things to fight against" since HoT. EVERY class besides Ranger has been the most disgusting thing to fight against. Spellbreakers with their OP WoD, Scourges with their corrupts and red carpet of death, Thieves with their Perma-stealth, FB with their insane boons, stab, and healing, Mesmers with their OP condi damage and clone regeneration......need I say more? > > > > > > > > You dont need overkill levels of Stealth like Thief, longbow and smokescale give you enough...and yes, Druid is one of the most broken and unfun builds to fight against, hve no idea how CA didnt get the same nerfs that the sPvP version got it. > > > > > > CA didn't get nerfed as hard as sPvP because it's the only way a Druid can still be somewhat viable in a zerg IF a commander is willing to let a Ranger to join in on their zerg that is. **Smokescale and LB3 stealth is not that long especially now with the new Painted and Marked from Towers, Sentries, and Traps**. You act like those two stealth abilities are game breaking. > > > > Which is the same thing Thief notes as well? > > > > I am not seeing the lack of a parallel here? > > > > I give up. Nothing I say will ever change anybodies mind on here. I really don't know why I even bother sometimes. No argument has ever been won over the internet. You have your mind set and made up and nothing I or anybody says will change that. Ranger is in a good spot right now. It's been a long time since it has. Now that it is, everybody and their uncle's dog wants to nerf it back down into oblivion. I hope the ‘you’ was generic as I do not play significant time on either, nor have I called for nerfs on either. I play ele who is a focus of both of the classes. I have issues with both, but am not certain that any of the nerfs that have been done, nor ones others are suggesting need to be done. I am merely trying to understand both sides and learn what I can. I just see a ton of parallels between the two classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 The problem with Thief was that it could camp Permastealth while still having very high mobility and could either one-shot kill or reset until it did one-shot kill. Ranger does not have that ability to the extent Thieves have and never has. Perfect circumstances have to be met in order for a Ranger to almost one-shot someone, it's more like a 1-2 combo with a Ranger. And even then there are still ways to prevent that with more toughness and vitality, dodges, evades, invulns, etc. With the new Marked for Stealth, that has now leveled the playing field for anybody that wants to use Stealth. You have more time to react and prepare for a Ranger than you do or did with a Thief. Rangers can be countered a lot easier than some classes. Are they strong Roamers, sure. There are stronger though, Thief and Mesmer. Ranger has had very little playtime in Zergs, Engineers and Mesmers have always been more viable. The only two classes that have really been left out of zerging for long periods of time are Thieves and Rangers. There will always be parallels made between some classes, that's part of balance in a game. Each class though should have some kind of a purpose, whether it's zerging or roaming. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. If a zerg catches a Ranger, that Ranger is toast. If a Ranger catches a single person, then there is a good fighting chance they can beat that other person. The problem people are having is that they are being caught off guard by a Ranger and getting killed by it and then getting all kinds of upset about it and running to the forums to cry "NERF RANGER, OP!" It's not OP. It's good right where it's at. We now have a purpose and can contribute to more than just scouting for zergs and trying to shoot enemies from the walls of towers or keeps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > The problem people are having is that they are being caught off guard by a Ranger and getting killed by it and then getting all kinds of upset about it and running to the forums to cry "NERF RANGER, OP!" It's not OP. It's good right where it's at. you cannot really complain about it, when your doing the exact same about thieves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 When Thieves get to a good spot like Rangers I will stop complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 With regards to thief, was a good class with strong burst,great mobility compensating for its low hp/sustain, cuz its architecture and mechanics to deal damage was annoying to other players that didn’t play thief and didn’t want to take time to learn how to exploit its many weaknesses arenanet tried to appease the community by nurfing its burst, than the complaint was it could reset so mobility was handed out like candy to other professions so now thief hits with mediocre damage,not that far ahead in mobility and has lowest hp/sustain which makes them still good? WhAt? Lol and DE made all this even worse. As long as thief does what it’s soposed to do as a thief it’s playstyles will annoy non thief players,they will cry and it will get further useless over time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syszery.1592 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > When Thieves get to a good spot like Rangers I will stop complaining. Ok, I agree: Thieves need buffs to be in line with ranger :+1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing) > > > > > > Personally I run condi rev for roaming I think it's way better than power because it can actually deal with condis. If you want power spike for roaming bring a thief or ranger or even a warrior imo. Still can't 1v1 condi mirages consistently but I have a way easier time than when I run power and I am much harder to single target down in a group fight and much easier to keep alive if I have support. > > > > > > Buffing shiro's condi survivability would probably amount to adding more cleanse to riposting because I doubt they'd add cleanse to phase or impossible odds. Riposting is one of those skills that can easily become broken if it does too much because it's already a stun break a dodge roll an i frame and movement condi cleanse. They could put cleanses on the glint/shiro f2s but that wouldn't likely be enough if it's shiro/glint because you need a metric ton of frequent cleanses right now to deal with the amount of condis mirages can pump out. They could put more cleanses on staff or perhaps more cleanses on legend swap but then that would bleed into other builds. They could put more condi cleanse on the shield or revert the heal on shield 5 but that could get pretty broken pretty fast depending on what they did. Either way making shiro power rev condi survivable would probably break rev at that scale because other than being extremely vulnerable to condis shiro rev is pretty amazing. Like I said you might run into a situation where all of a sudden shiro rev would just push everything else out of the roaming meta like what happened when rev first came out but for different reasons. Shiro Rev needs to be severely vulnerable to condis for it to be balanced and I'm saying this as probably one of the most dedicated rev mains left in the game at this point. > > > > > > > Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot. > > > > > > I fundamentally disagree. Compcraft is more interesting the more structural weaknesses the group has to overcome through design, strategy and tactics. > > > > > > > Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile. > > > > > > If you're one of these people who thinks balance is fundamentally about build diversity rather than extreme tradeoffs then yeah probably. > > > > > > > Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here. > > > > > > There's no dictionary to refer to no but in this game the common usage of "small scale" isn't a group or less. In my experience there are basically four scales of play: roaming, small, medium and large. Roaming is a group or less, small is 5-15, medium is usually something like 15-30 and large is 30+. > > > > > > > Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true. > > > > > > Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs. > > > > > > > Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game. > > > > > > Perhaps but you seem to be incredibly biased on this topic which makes it hard for you to see outside your own particular interest here. > > > > > > > Kindly allow me to chip in. > > I think that claiming revs as weak to condis is not accurate anymore after the runes/sigils patch changes. > > > > I've fought revs who run cleansing sigils and runes of resistance and they put up a hell of a fight against condi classes. One even beat my condi necro using a glint/jalis build. I would say the fight was 60/40 in my favour but I got outplayed by him and lost. > > > > I think revs on the whole needs to rethink their builds with all the new condi clear tools available because I don't think they are as weak to condi as they were before the patch. > > I agree since the changes I don't think anyone can claim rev is weak to conditions. You can also take anti-toxin runes so everytime you cleanse 1 condition you cleanse an extra condition, pair that up with food for cleansing on heal and your heal removes 2 conditions, renewing wave cleanses 3, cleansing sigil cleanses 4, legend swap cleanses 2 and reposting shadows cleanses...not sure tbh but likely 1 damaging condition + all movement conditions. > > You can run these two on a lot of classes and be almost immune to conditions on the whole. It doesn't help discussions of class balance to conflate class features with build itemization balance. As you say runes sigils and food are available to everyone whereas class features are unique to each individual class and they consist of traits weapon skills and utilities which also include f skills. The rev class itself is still very weak to condi 1v1 in that the traits weapon skills and utilities do not offer much in the way of personal cleanse when compared to the condi output of things like mirage and/or low energy cost resistance. It doesn't matter though in any case because this is a team based game mode not a dueling server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOStaticOo.9467 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"syszery.1592" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > When Thieves get to a good spot like Rangers I will stop complaining. > > Ok, I agree: Thieves need buffs to be in line with ranger :+1: I can agree to that as well. They could use a buff in HP. I will always be against the type of stealth thieves have in WvW right now though, however. If they were to rework it, I might be fine with it. Remove it and give Thieves more utilities and I'll be happy with that. Stealth is my problem in this game, I don't think it should be the way it is and that goes for ALL classes not just Thief. As I have said before Thieves are not OP, Stealth is OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylden Ar.3724 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 WvW will never be anywhere near balanced for 2 reasons; 1. Populations. Even when they come up with alliances, the more that show, win. Period. 2. Not using PvP build system. As long as people can min-max parts and use Ascended, ANet will never be able to balance the mode. I have said for a long time that WvW needs the PvP build system, with the differences of allowing ALL stat combos, runes, and sigils, and that your infusion slots should still give that bonus (so there is a reason in WvW to work toward the Ascended stuff you can get there, and not invalidate all the people that already did it). Another advantage to the PvP build system to WvW would be lowering the entry bars to new players, as short of Ascended infusions, they would be on the same level as everyone else. Then it's skill, not just being short statted on builds for newer players. As for the Stealth is OP issue (which is true, if you have access you short yourself as a roamer if you don't take it) I have also made [suggestions on that point](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59000/anet-impliment-simple-fix-to-stealth) that would help to deal with most of those issues while still leaving Stealth as a valid form of defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > When Thieves get to a good spot like Rangers I will stop complaining. cant you see that people complaining about rangers do see them too strong the same way you think about thieves? its all just personal opinions as anet never said how good specific builds are supposed to perform at wich role and how. then there is the frequent forms of l2p comments when opinions differ, after all someone with a different opinion must be a worse player. etc. etc. but you must not forget that all this balance discussions are just opinions, you dont have to convince other people. if you think some complains are misplaced, try to explain them their options and the weaknesses you have that they can exploit to make sure it is not because of a lack of knowledge. if they despite knowing the game in and out are of a different opinion, then you claiming otherwise wont change it. there are for example players that think every profession should be equally efficient in solo roaming, while i think thief should, was and is the best at it, i dont think i ever will agree with 'em, but we dont have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > When Thieves get to a good spot like Rangers I will stop complaining. > > cant you see that people complaining about rangers do see them too strong the same way you think about thieves? > > its all just personal opinions as anet never said how good specific builds are supposed to perform at wich role and how. then there is the frequent forms of l2p comments when opinions differ, after all someone with a different opinion must be a worse player. etc. etc. > but you must not forget that all this balance discussions are just opinions, you dont have to convince other people. if you think some complains are misplaced, try to explain them their options and the weaknesses you have that they can exploit to make sure it is not because of a lack of knowledge. if they despite knowing the game in and out are of a different opinion, then you claiming otherwise wont change it. there are for example players that think every profession should be equally efficient in solo roaming, while i think thief should, was and is the best at it, i dont think i ever will agree with 'em, but we dont have to. > So in the games state as we speak u believe thief is superior to ranger,mirage and holo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > When Thieves get to a good spot like Rangers I will stop complaining. > > > > cant you see that people complaining about rangers do see them too strong the same way you think about thieves? > > > > its all just personal opinions as anet never said how good specific builds are supposed to perform at wich role and how. then there is the frequent forms of l2p comments when opinions differ, after all someone with a different opinion must be a worse player. etc. etc. > > but you must not forget that all this balance discussions are just opinions, you dont have to convince other people. if you think some complains are misplaced, try to explain them their options and the weaknesses you have that they can exploit to make sure it is not because of a lack of knowledge. if they despite knowing the game in and out are of a different opinion, then you claiming otherwise wont change it. there are for example players that think every profession should be equally efficient in solo roaming, while i think thief should, was and is the best at it, i dont think i ever will agree with 'em, but we dont have to. > > > > So in the games state as we speak u believe thief is superior to ranger,mirage and holo? for solo roaming based on our scoring system: yes. for duelling wich many people consider as solo roaming: depends on the envoirement, rules etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing) > > > > > > > > Personally I run condi rev for roaming I think it's way better than power because it can actually deal with condis. If you want power spike for roaming bring a thief or ranger or even a warrior imo. Still can't 1v1 condi mirages consistently but I have a way easier time than when I run power and I am much harder to single target down in a group fight and much easier to keep alive if I have support. > > > > > > > > Buffing shiro's condi survivability would probably amount to adding more cleanse to riposting because I doubt they'd add cleanse to phase or impossible odds. Riposting is one of those skills that can easily become broken if it does too much because it's already a stun break a dodge roll an i frame and movement condi cleanse. They could put cleanses on the glint/shiro f2s but that wouldn't likely be enough if it's shiro/glint because you need a metric ton of frequent cleanses right now to deal with the amount of condis mirages can pump out. They could put more cleanses on staff or perhaps more cleanses on legend swap but then that would bleed into other builds. They could put more condi cleanse on the shield or revert the heal on shield 5 but that could get pretty broken pretty fast depending on what they did. Either way making shiro power rev condi survivable would probably break rev at that scale because other than being extremely vulnerable to condis shiro rev is pretty amazing. Like I said you might run into a situation where all of a sudden shiro rev would just push everything else out of the roaming meta like what happened when rev first came out but for different reasons. Shiro Rev needs to be severely vulnerable to condis for it to be balanced and I'm saying this as probably one of the most dedicated rev mains left in the game at this point. > > > > > > > > > Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot. > > > > > > > > I fundamentally disagree. Compcraft is more interesting the more structural weaknesses the group has to overcome through design, strategy and tactics. > > > > > > > > > Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile. > > > > > > > > If you're one of these people who thinks balance is fundamentally about build diversity rather than extreme tradeoffs then yeah probably. > > > > > > > > > Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here. > > > > > > > > There's no dictionary to refer to no but in this game the common usage of "small scale" isn't a group or less. In my experience there are basically four scales of play: roaming, small, medium and large. Roaming is a group or less, small is 5-15, medium is usually something like 15-30 and large is 30+. > > > > > > > > > Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true. > > > > > > > > Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs. > > > > > > > > > Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game. > > > > > > > > Perhaps but you seem to be incredibly biased on this topic which makes it hard for you to see outside your own particular interest here. > > > > > > > > > > Kindly allow me to chip in. > > > I think that claiming revs as weak to condis is not accurate anymore after the runes/sigils patch changes. > > > > > > I've fought revs who run cleansing sigils and runes of resistance and they put up a hell of a fight against condi classes. One even beat my condi necro using a glint/jalis build. I would say the fight was 60/40 in my favour but I got outplayed by him and lost. > > > > > > I think revs on the whole needs to rethink their builds with all the new condi clear tools available because I don't think they are as weak to condi as they were before the patch. > > > > I agree since the changes I don't think anyone can claim rev is weak to conditions. You can also take anti-toxin runes so everytime you cleanse 1 condition you cleanse an extra condition, pair that up with food for cleansing on heal and your heal removes 2 conditions, renewing wave cleanses 3, cleansing sigil cleanses 4, legend swap cleanses 2 and reposting shadows cleanses...not sure tbh but likely 1 damaging condition + all movement conditions. > > > > You can run these two on a lot of classes and be almost immune to conditions on the whole. > > It doesn't help discussions of class balance to conflate class features with build itemization balance. As you say runes sigils and food are available to everyone whereas class features are unique to each individual class and they consist of traits weapon skills and utilities which also include f skills. > > The rev class itself is still very weak to condi 1v1 in that the traits weapon skills and utilities do not offer much in the way of personal cleanse when compared to the condi output of things like mirage and/or low energy cost resistance. > > It doesn't matter though in any case because this is a team based game mode not a dueling server. Runes, sigils and food are very relevant. By getting cleanses from other sources it allows you to go all in on damage traits. Rev actually benefits from the runes and food much more than most classes. It's all about opportunity/cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing) > > > > > > > > > > Personally I run condi rev for roaming I think it's way better than power because it can actually deal with condis. If you want power spike for roaming bring a thief or ranger or even a warrior imo. Still can't 1v1 condi mirages consistently but I have a way easier time than when I run power and I am much harder to single target down in a group fight and much easier to keep alive if I have support. > > > > > > > > > > Buffing shiro's condi survivability would probably amount to adding more cleanse to riposting because I doubt they'd add cleanse to phase or impossible odds. Riposting is one of those skills that can easily become broken if it does too much because it's already a stun break a dodge roll an i frame and movement condi cleanse. They could put cleanses on the glint/shiro f2s but that wouldn't likely be enough if it's shiro/glint because you need a metric ton of frequent cleanses right now to deal with the amount of condis mirages can pump out. They could put more cleanses on staff or perhaps more cleanses on legend swap but then that would bleed into other builds. They could put more condi cleanse on the shield or revert the heal on shield 5 but that could get pretty broken pretty fast depending on what they did. Either way making shiro power rev condi survivable would probably break rev at that scale because other than being extremely vulnerable to condis shiro rev is pretty amazing. Like I said you might run into a situation where all of a sudden shiro rev would just push everything else out of the roaming meta like what happened when rev first came out but for different reasons. Shiro Rev needs to be severely vulnerable to condis for it to be balanced and I'm saying this as probably one of the most dedicated rev mains left in the game at this point. > > > > > > > > > > > Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot. > > > > > > > > > > I fundamentally disagree. Compcraft is more interesting the more structural weaknesses the group has to overcome through design, strategy and tactics. > > > > > > > > > > > Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile. > > > > > > > > > > If you're one of these people who thinks balance is fundamentally about build diversity rather than extreme tradeoffs then yeah probably. > > > > > > > > > > > Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here. > > > > > > > > > > There's no dictionary to refer to no but in this game the common usage of "small scale" isn't a group or less. In my experience there are basically four scales of play: roaming, small, medium and large. Roaming is a group or less, small is 5-15, medium is usually something like 15-30 and large is 30+. > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs. > > > > > > > > > > > Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps but you seem to be incredibly biased on this topic which makes it hard for you to see outside your own particular interest here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kindly allow me to chip in. > > > > I think that claiming revs as weak to condis is not accurate anymore after the runes/sigils patch changes. > > > > > > > > I've fought revs who run cleansing sigils and runes of resistance and they put up a hell of a fight against condi classes. One even beat my condi necro using a glint/jalis build. I would say the fight was 60/40 in my favour but I got outplayed by him and lost. > > > > > > > > I think revs on the whole needs to rethink their builds with all the new condi clear tools available because I don't think they are as weak to condi as they were before the patch. > > > > > > I agree since the changes I don't think anyone can claim rev is weak to conditions. You can also take anti-toxin runes so everytime you cleanse 1 condition you cleanse an extra condition, pair that up with food for cleansing on heal and your heal removes 2 conditions, renewing wave cleanses 3, cleansing sigil cleanses 4, legend swap cleanses 2 and reposting shadows cleanses...not sure tbh but likely 1 damaging condition + all movement conditions. > > > > > > You can run these two on a lot of classes and be almost immune to conditions on the whole. > > > > It doesn't help discussions of class balance to conflate class features with build itemization balance. As you say runes sigils and food are available to everyone whereas class features are unique to each individual class and they consist of traits weapon skills and utilities which also include f skills. > > > > The rev class itself is still very weak to condi 1v1 in that the traits weapon skills and utilities do not offer much in the way of personal cleanse when compared to the condi output of things like mirage and/or low energy cost resistance. > > > > It doesn't matter though in any case because this is a team based game mode not a dueling server. > > Runes, sigils and food are very relevant. By getting cleanses from other sources it allows you to go all in on damage traits. Rev actually benefits from the runes and food much more than most classes. It's all about opportunity/cost. I didn't say they're not relevant. I said they're not class specific. Meta rev for anything other than very small scale roaming already goes full damage traits with full damage runes because the healing and the majority of cleanses are done by the supports not the revs. The problem with discussions about 1v1 balance is that they don't consider how comp works to synergize class strengths and ameliorate class weaknesses. All these roaming necros need to do is make some friends and play in a proper comp with support and they won't have to worry about dying 1v1 to rangers anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > > > > > To get those 10k LB AA, Ranger does need "some skill" to play. You are running a full Zerker Ranger that is glass and will die if the wind blows on it. Not to mention you also have to time everything right to get all the bonuses needed to do that all while hoping your opponent doesn't see you first and dodge, reflect, retal, invuln, evade, or stealth. What you are talking about mostly is luck. Most Rangers get lucky to hit somebody with that much damage. So either that Ranger had some really good luck or you had some really bad luck at the time of that hit. In that case, feelsbadman. Ranger has been the redheaded stepchild of WvW for the longest time. I'm glad that it has a small place now in WvW. Would like to see it's role increase more though to be honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > The interesting part of this comment is it was essentially the same point raised by theives justifying deaths judgement and malicious backstab. > > > > > > > > > > Difference is that Thieves have Stealth and High Mobility, Rangers do not. While yes Rangers have SOME Stealth it is nowhere near on par with Thief. Same goes for the Mobility. In order to use Ranger mobility they have to have Owl Pet and Swoop from GS. Which if you are using Owl that will reduce the amount of damage being put out therefore reducing that chance of a 10k AA. I'd say it is a little bit more difficult for Ranger than it is for Thief to set up the necessary buffs to do the damage. > > > > > > > > rangers dont have stealth and high mobility? and also, since HoT rangers had allways been one of the most disgusting things to fight against. > > > > > > Never said they don't have it. Said that if they were to trait for Stealth and Mobility they would then take away from their ability to do the amount of damage you are complaining about. To get that damage they need to merge with Smokescale. Smokescale provides Ferocious buff to Ranger increasing power by 200 and ferocity by 100. If they are merged with Owl for mobility on the F1 then they are using Supportive buff, which gives you 100 vitality and an increase in outgoing healing by 25%. If they try to build for Stealth that means using Druid instead of Soulbeast, Rune of the Trapper, and using Traps instead of Sic' Em. Sic' Em provides for a 40% damage buff. If they are going for maximum damage then they will be running Rune of the Scholar x6. And NO Rangers have NOT been the "most disgusting things to fight against" since HoT. EVERY class besides Ranger has been the most disgusting thing to fight against. Spellbreakers with their OP WoD, Scourges with their corrupts and red carpet of death, Thieves with their Perma-stealth, FB with their insane boons, stab, and healing, Mesmers with their OP condi damage and clone regeneration......need I say more? > > > > Scourge was overpowered in blobs? It got nerfed. Firebrand was overpowered in blobs? It gets nerfed. > > Spellbreaker WoD was overpowered in blobs? It got nerfed. > > Ranger is overpowered in roaming? High time it gets nerfed > > Along with Mesmer, Thief, and Engineer. I mean if we are gonna nerf a roaming class, let's nerf them all. Balance. Sure! Start with ranger, work your way to other classes as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining One.1635 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > Sure! Start with ranger, work your way to other classes as well Why start with one? Nerf them all at once. I think there needs to be more sacrifice in build choices. You shouldn't be able to have high survivability, high mobility, and high damage all in one build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > 2. Not using PvP build system. As long as people can min-max parts and use Ascended, ANet will never be able to balance the mode. I have said for a long time that WvW needs the PvP build system, with the differences of allowing ALL stat combos, runes, and sigils, and that your infusion slots should still give that bonus (so there is a reason in WvW to work toward the Ascended stuff you can get there, and not invalidate all the people that already did it). > > Another advantage to the PvP build system to WvW would be lowering the entry bars to new players, as short of Ascended infusions, they would be on the same level as everyone else. Then it's skill, not just being short statted on builds for newer players. Amulet system would imo completely kill WvW, me and basically everyone I know would instantly quit the game if this happened. It would fix none of the issues you mention, the highest damage builds already only use 1 statcombo (Berserker) (sometimes with 2-4 pieces of marauder but not necessarily) which you can use with the amulet system. Burst would be even more dominant than it is now. Getting ascended armor is already fairly easy, with trinkets being the only annoying parts to get as a new player.> @"Shining One.1635" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Sure! Start with ranger, work your way to other classes as well > Why start with one? Nerf them all at once. > I think there needs to be more sacrifice in build choices. You shouldn't be able to have high survivability, high mobility, and high damage all in one build. > But, but, but I thought thief/ranger/mirage in zerker was glass cannon /sarcasm > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > With regards to thief, was a good class with strong burst,great mobility compensating for its low hp/sustain, cuz its architecture and mechanics to deal damage was annoying to other players that didn’t play thief and didn’t want to take time to learn how to exploit its many weaknesses arenanet tried to appease the community by nurfing its burst, than the complaint was it could reset so mobility was handed out like candy to other professions so now thief hits with mediocre damage,not that far ahead in mobility and has lowest hp/sustain which makes them still good? WhAt? Lol and DE made all this even worse. As long as thief does what it’s soposed to do as a thief it’s playstyles will annoy non thief players,they will cry and it will get further useless over time It's still top-tier for smallscale roaming, if it isn't for you then that's a l2p issue. Thief has very few weaknesses, if you play thief in WvW you can basically only die to other thieves, mesmers and rangers. On basically any other class even if you predict the thief basically perfectly the best you can hope for is a draw as no thief ever engages you w/o having at least 2 900+ range teleports ready to disengage. Thief's damage is still top tier, Vault, DJ and Backstab all hit in the 10-30k range depending on the target. Their mobility is still top tier (permanent swiftness, shortbow/rifle, shadowstep, steal etc). Their stealth access is still some of the best in the game. > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > To get those 10k LB AA, Ranger does need "some skill" to play. You are running a full Zerker Ranger that is glass and will die if the wind blows on it. Not to mention you also have to time everything right to get all the bonuses needed to do that all while hoping your opponent doesn't see you first and dodge, reflect, retal, invuln, evade, or stealth. What you are talking about mostly is luck. Most Rangers get lucky to hit somebody with that much damage. So either that Ranger had some really good luck or you had some really bad luck at the time of that hit. In that case, feelsbadman. Ranger has been the redheaded stepchild of WvW for the longest time. I'm glad that it has a small place now in WvW. Would like to see it's role increase more though to be honest. Your defense is that you have 1.5k-2.5k range (depending on terrain). Your defense is that you have greater mobility than 2/3rd of the classes in WvW. Reflect is easily countered by call of the wild which is part of the burst combo, or unstoppable lion. Retal does at most like 400/hit, that's nothing by comparison to what the ranger is dishing out (full rapid fire then hits you for 4k while your target is dead) Sic' em counters stealth. Dodge and Invuln applies as counters to all classes, if people use them against your burst as ranger just reset and try again. 1-shot builds/similar are terrible for WvW. They create no interesting encounters, most of the time you either +1 and instantly end the fight (ruining their fight w/o any meaningful interaction from either side) Hit someone who is semi-afk and kill them before they can react (no meaningful interaction from either side). This also has the added benefit of making roaming way more annoying because if you lose focus for a split second while running around looking for fights (something already annoying) you might just die out of nowhere, great mechanic. Fail and reset the fight, somehow the most interesting scenario, yet still incredibly dull for everyone involved as they either play Mesmer/Thief/Ranger and can chase you down and kill you (cause you used CDs, so basically not a real fight) or they don't and therefore can literally do nothing about the scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > @"syszery.1592" said: > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said: > > > When Thieves get to a good spot like Rangers I will stop complaining. > > > > Ok, I agree: Thieves need buffs to be in line with ranger :+1: > > I can agree to that as well. They could use a buff in HP. I will always be against the type of stealth thieves have in WvW right now though, however. If they were to rework it, I might be fine with it. Remove it and give Thieves more utilities and I'll be happy with that. Stealth is my problem in this game, I don't think it should be the way it is and that goes for ALL classes not just Thief. As I have said before Thieves are not OP, Stealth is OP. My problem is that while stealth is OP, it is also necessary for thief at the moment. I tend to play tankier builds, but when a soulbeast can kit 9k point blank shots when I'm on a full trailblazer minimal stealth build, you have to question what the point is in running anything except max damage and stealth. This isn't just a complaint at soulbeast either, I'm glad they're not just cannon fodder anymore; I'm just saying that the absurd level of immediate spike damage that's present in the game, combined with the fact multiple professions can now outrun a thief, this has the effect of pigeonholing thieves into stealth builds for the most part. So unless people are fine with nerfs to damage across the board or with thief getting substantial buffs to it's health and defenses, this is how the class will be played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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