Ban ArcDPS and any third party program

[Emberstone.2904]

If arcDPS get's banned, then they'll just have you benchmark your rotation on the kitty dummy every time you want to raid or something. There are still ways of finding out how much damage a player is doing even without a DPS meter.

 

Banning Arc does nothing besides making raiding artificially harder for the people who use it legitimately.

 

Secondly, I've never been kicked out of a group for low DPS, and I've been playing this game since day one. I used to be completely awful at this game, and yet the people better than me still never saw fit to give me the boot. I have to believe that you were doing something reeeeeally wrong in order for that to happen. Even though core dungeons are considered easy these days, even in AC you can run into issues if your DPS isn't that great.

 

The first time I did Vale Guardian, I only did 9K DPS (about 1/3 what I should've been doing as a Weaver), and that was STILL enough to get the boss kill despite the highest DPS in the group only being like 11 or 12K. While this is only one example, it shows that it really doesn't take a lot for much of the content in this game.

 

I hate to say it, but the easier solution is just to figure out what you did wrong. Unless you're playing something like a Weaver, your rotation isn't that hard (and even then, you can still go Tempest with Scepter/WH and have a very easy rotation for a high DPS output).

 

Don't screw over people who use the tool legitimately just because you had a bad experience with some potential bad eggs.

[Emberstone.2904]

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > @"Applejuice.4083" said:

> > ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

>

> You can't seriously argue that Arc DPS is the cause of such behaviour, that's on the individuals themselves. Anti social players will remain anti social no matter what, party kicks, death threats and accusations of poor performance will not go away just because you take the proverbial sledge hammer to the nail.

 

You act like there aren't other ways to gauge a party member's DPS. Rather than just running Arc, these people will just have you whack on a Kitty dummy with a benchmark-set of raid buffs.

 

They'll still find out your DPS, one way or the other. The tool was implemented to make it so people who use it legitimately don't have to jump through hoops to do something that is easily done in other MMO's.

 

It is an extremely helpful tool for the raiding scene a large portion of raid bosses have enrage timers.

 

(Edit: Looks like this and another thread got merged. Didn't originally double post, but that's how it is now.)

[nosleepdemon.1368]

> @"zionophir.6845" said:

> > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > > @"zionophir.6845" said:

> > > indeed. it is not arcdps, but the users of arcdps.

> >

> > Touche! But as mentioned, probably #notallusers.

>

> yeah. a gun, by itself, can't do sh@t. give that to a morally upright and responsible owner, he'll use it accordingly and most likely, sparingly. but give that to an effin you know what, cnn will have another news..

 

Let's not go down that path :p most guns are designed to kill things, all DPS metres kill is one's pride.

[Haishao.6851]

> @"Ahrijlaken.9541" said:

> How to fix the problem ?

>

> 1. Ban DPS metter third party

> 2. Creat official DPSmeter in the game that only show solo DPS and GUILD members DPS

>

> Problem solved.

>

 

Or don't join PUG

 

Problem solved.

[Mewcifer.5198]

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

 

> > @"Fantasy.5321" said:

> >Why don't you tell them: "You're doing it wrong, do you need help with your gear or build?" This is what the priority SHOULD be in massively multiplayer games

>

> The entitlement, wow.

 

IKR. My priority is to enjoy a game. Sometimes I am perfectly willing to carry a scrub or teach a newbie. I even often take people through dungeons who have never done them before just to teach them and give them experience. And I will also help teach people how to gear up and play a character. But that doesn't mean it is something I want to do all the time on the demand of any random person I meet.

 

Sometimes I want to complete content in a timely manner, no stopping to give someone lessons. Because I want to enjoy the time I spend on the game. I can't believe that people actually expect others to stop everything they are doing and sacrifice their time and enjoyment to help a total stranger.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

how many votes does it take to kick? just 2? if so increase to 3.

[Balsa.3951]

I dont use arc dps yet but I plan on that

 

before dps meter we had ranger and necros and guards not welcome in speedrun dunguons bcs of their low dps. we had guilds who made youtube videos and lied about the dps the builds output they promote.

 

I remember the silliness when a ranger want join and he get kicked or those warrior and mesmer only groups.

 

U got kicked at AC p2 is kinda weird u sure was ur dps ? the p2 path has the ghost buster thing in the end if i remember right. I done that many times the last few days for the monk runes and it seems the only part which gave ppl trouble was that they dont know they must charge the traps.

 

PS if those programs can see my inventory and gear and build this part i want be banned i know build and gear is possible since i was kicked from a wvw squad bcs i run a Valkyrie hammer guardian build and the cmander wanted i switch to a build for which i not had the desire to play.

[El Psy Congroo.7965]

This is why I haven't even gotten into raids, I'll just wait until I can find 9 friends to play.

[Applejuice.4083]

> @"DoNotBelieveMe.3029" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > See also:

> >

> > * [DPS Meters and party toxicity...](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29477/dps-meters-and-party-toxicity)

> > * [DPS meter policy needs to be revised](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9814/dps-meter-policy-needs-to-be-revised)

> > * [An in game DPS meter from Anet](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56051/an-in-game-dps-meter-from-anet)

> > * [Flag DPS-Meter user in the game](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38671/flag-dps-meter-user-in-the-game)

> > * [A-Net please get rid of the DPS meters.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36695/a-net-please-get-rid-of-the-dps-meters)

> > * [in-House DPS Meter](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36095/in-house-dps-meter)

> > * [DPS Meter](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/23728/dps-meter)

> > * [Anet.. can you make a DPS meter?](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10170/anet-can-you-make-a-dps-meter)

> > * [DPS shaming](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60845/dps-shaming)

> I kinda hope this post that I quoted ends up as a sticky or something so people realize how many threads there are by now. Pretty sure the developers have had enough feedback from all these existing threads. If they intend to change stuff regarding this, the action would either already be in the process of being executed, or at least on the agenda in-house. No amount of extra moaning at this stage will change anything. We don't need more threads every time some player gets slighted in game and ends up crying to the forums. The dozens of threads in raid and fractals about these are quite enough, beating the dead horse is not productive. It has long since gone past the stage of being a controversial topic; each side is so firmly cemented in its views, there is simply no getting across to the other side. It all invariably ends up as "other players are so selfish". That is the one thing both sides seem to agree on. As I read on another dps meter thread recently, one of the posters jokingly commented that they should delete people instead. Ironically that is the best course of action, block people so you don't meet them in instanced pve content again when you pug. This in-game feature is still not working correctly in its entirety since I think people you have blocked can still join on you, but it is better than nothing. At TS: If you need an outlet for your rage, the lion arch crowd might be more accommodating but please spare the forum people from having to deal with the same repeating topic over and over again.

>

 

Nice way to be contradicting, "but please spare the forum people from having to deal with the same repeating topic over and over again." nobody asked you to respond to this thread, while I do appreciate the time you put ( truly I do ) I never forced you, you came here on your own free will and took the time out of your own day to respond.

[DoNotBelieveMe.3029]

@"Applejuice.4083"

 

I understand your point of view on the thread topic, you are passionate about this issue and wish to see a real resolution to it.

I would first like to apologize if my post came across as rude if anyone found it offensive.

However, I did write it after looking over the various other input within this thread that tried to address the thread topic.

Please let me know if you actually found any of these responses from both sides of the argument amounting to anything more than 'It is a people problem, they are selfish'.

Are any of the "solutions" are not things you have read dozens of times before on this forum alone? Are any of the compromises offered till now likely to change your mind?

 

If this thread was simply an outlet for you to stay engaged and enjoy the game, please disregard everything I have written to this point, including the initial post. I would apologize again for it as well. I do not have the right to stop anyone from things they enjoy.

 

[battledrone.8315]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

>

> I think you have absolutely put your finger on the real issue.

> There is a small but very vocal group that feels it is their right to all content by virtue of the time/money spent on the game regardless of skill level or even their own personal interest in it.

> They will never accept what you are saying, regardless of how logical, even and sensible the message is. From the demand for ARC to be banned, to the demand for "easy mode raids" to the complaints about having to go into WvW for a few hours to earn a legendary weapon, it's all the same.

> They show up in rare, mismatched armor with zero synergy in their build and expect to be able to do a t3 fractal because the armor is a gemstore skin. Then they hop on to the forums to berate Arenanet for the AR system or the other players who kicked them for underperforming.

> They spent their time and money, they figure; they are supposed to be allowed to raid.

>

> The word here is entitlement.

> If the players in question could read your quote and come to terms with it, drama would decrease tenfold.

> But they won't, because when given the choice between a lessening of their power-fantasy and criticizing others they will always choose to blame other people.

 

why should they be forced to pay for content, that theyre never gonna play? thats right ...ENTITLEMENT

you want "exclusive" content...YOU pay for it

[santso.9201]

On sure If larger Part of playerbase would know about dps Golem and would have realistic picture of their Max performance this wouldnt Be huge issue...like no one gets kicked because they did few k less dps than other dps, most likely what gets ppl kicked is them failing key mechanics that get group wiped. If ppl kick you because Bad dps then its More than 1-2k less, you have Been dps racing with druid on that point(for ppl who dont run arc that would Be like 3-5k dps when dps should Be like 15-20k) in that point, yeah you have Been leeching and should Be kicked.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Killing a random mob fast won't Make your non meta build effective. Load arc and see it your self.

[Jski.6180]

Its not bad but ppl over use it as a benchmark for things not realizing its just raw number and a lot of effects for a fight is lost.

 

It dose show problems of balancing in the game to a point.

[tethyr.6513]

I find the notion of the OP getting kicked over DPS in AC isn't very likely - especially if the build was indeed SnowCrows to a T. I'd fathom he/she was kicked for another reason entirely, or no reason that had anything to do with him/her (like swapping in a friend).

 

No one drops a player from AC over DPS. Failing at the mechanics or constantly in a downstate would be my first guess. Getting lost in the Catacombs and not finding your way through the skelk maze would be another.

 

I don't have a problem with ArcDPS. If anything, its easier to understand output should be added to the game instead of through an overlay. The same for its build swapping features.

 

The problem with raids is that the bar is incredibly high for failure and people's time is valuable. ArenaNet really should add a training tier to Raids so that newer and inexperienced players have a means by which to learn the mechanics and rotations of difficult content without burdening 9 other people in a Challenge Mode setting.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The hardest part about arguing is discerning whether or not the person you are talking to is lying, uninformed, or they genuinely unaware of of their own doublethink. There's a lot of catchy phrases and epithets that get thrown around, and in my contrarian nature I tend to choose the side that _isn't lying to me._ Because sometimes, someone crafts a catchy phrase not to distill truth into its purest form, but rather as an arbitrary line of attack against anyone who doesn't agree with them.

 

Case in point, this topic should not exist. Not only is it redundant, but the point of the topic is to revel in disdain and self-importance. I'm going be a particularly annoying person, and dice up the original post to demonstrate what I am talking about.

 

 

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> There appears to be a prevailing thought pattern among players crying for Arc DPS to be banned, that their poor performance should somehow be hidden from scrutiny, and that those of us who prefer to benchmark the performance of the group are infected with that *dastardly* word - *Toxic* behaviour.

 

This entire section is backhanded disdain, dressed up to be self important. There "appears" to be a discussion? Really? I thought it was the most blatant hot-button topic pervading these forums for years, but thank you, good sir, for being vaguely aware of what is going on. This topic here isn't to discuss the nature of DPS meters in the game. No, that decision was already made before this post was written. This thread is about hating other players, and that is it. Look at the language here: "Crying", "**their** poor performance," "**hidden** from scrutiny." It's all person-focused, and doesn't discuss the issue as a whole.

 

There's even an immediate lie here: you're deliberately playing stupid to omit what the real issue is. It isn't the righteous ones who benchmark their performance that are the problem. The problem is, and always has been, about people spying on another person's DPS for the purpose of kicking them from the group. Whether it is because they aren't doing well, or they aren't doing well _enough.__ That is the point of contention. Don't pull the wool over our eyes to make yourself look righteous.

 

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> Rather than improve their own performance, or indeed, even face the possibility that they are not (yet) able to perform at the required level for whatever content they are attempting, they would force their team mates to carry them until the entire group falls apart.

 

This is another pair of lies, meant only to spread malice:

 

First lie: It is a well known fact that fractals and raids aren't tuned for meta comps at all. Meta groups are clearing raid bosses in 3 or 4 minutes while there's 8 minutes on the clock for a _soft cap_ in mechanics. A team can do less than half as good as the peak and still complete content with no issues. This is so well known that raiders here routinely joke about GW2 raids being a joke. The "required level" that people are supposed to perform at is half of what the community actually demands, and you're pretending that this isn't the case.

 

Second lie: The "carry" myth. This is a warped mindset of greed that categorizes other players as tools and feels entitled to their presence and performance. It is not only a wholly arbitrary mindset, but not one that is shared among the gaming population. Yet, it gets repeated over and over again, because you don't want people to know that other mindsets exist. Not everyone who plays the game is loot oriented, goal oriented, or unforgiving. People will play this game just to have fun, and they'll have plenty of fun even when losing to a boss over and over again. Now, as inconvenient it is to deal with these people when goal oriented, it is an outright lie to say that they expect to be carried. They don't consider playing the game to even be "lifting."

 

There's technically a third one here, but this time I legitimately think you're unaware of this concept: Performance is frequently tied to factors wholly out of a player's control. There are many players who legitimately try hard, but can't perform at top levels due to computer issues, health issues, connectivity issues, and even bizarre IRL issues heretofore unmentioned. As much as elitists lament fractals and raids not being elite enough, making them too hard would exclude a lot of players for those reasons. Thankfully it isn't, but community reinforcement remains an issue.

 

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> I've used Arc DPS to benchmark my Revenant's damage, as the rotation is rather more complex than what I've previously been used to. I also use it in Fractals to check how me and my team mates are doing. It is an invaluable tool for self improvement, and for checking who in a group may not be suitable for whatever content that group is doing. On several occasions I have apologised for my own poor performance in T4 fractals and voluntarily left the group, because it has been obvious that I have been holding my group back, that I need more practice at lower tiers or with a practice group. That's the fair, right and responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

>

 

The self-improvement idea is yet another commonly perpetuated. A DPS meter is like a yard stick. Saying that a DPS meter improves you is like saying that a yard stick makes you taller. The issue is that _it really doesn't._ Improvement requires creativity, motivation, problem solving skills, research for the depth of knowledge in which to draw on. Meters provide none of this. They spit out a number, and if you're lucky then somebody else has done enough legwork to get a better number and publicize it.

 

Really, the vast majority of improvement comes from the theorycrafting stages, which for most players comes in the form of copying snowcrows build, practicing maximized rotations on the golem, then imitating those rotations on enemies while following pre-made guides on the encounter. A DPS meter can only improve the group under the assumption that there is a limitless pool of readily available talent from which to draw from, and one need only remove the chaff from the wheat to access this talent. I have spent way too many nights waiting several hours for fractal LFGs to fill to know that this limitless pool doesn't exist.

 

Subjecting yourself to a destructive system doesn't suddenly make it constructive. Being proud enough to throw yourself out of the window doesn't excuse throwing other people out of the window. It's like walking through the streets, flogging yourself while bragging how precious you are from all of your slight indecencies, threatening to flog others. Unless you're playing with particularly retentive bunch, most players would shrug off "poor performance" in fractals as nothing and carry on without a second thought. That's what everyone else does, because in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter much if one player flubs a few times during a run. The notion that you have to subject yourself to such a ridiculous standard is proof of how pervasive and toxic this mindset is. Self-flogging street walkers are not a good thing.

 

 

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> Rather than ban Arc DPS, I think it might be time for everyone to accept that they can't necessarily do all content all of the time; That there might be some content that is a little more exclusive, requires a little more experience and time investment in the game, and that this is not a bad thing.

>

> Arc DPS isn't the problem; It's this attitude of forced inclusivity and the removal of any tool that may get in the way of this agenda.

>

> I urge Arena Net and the player base at large not to give in to this, and instead to encourage the use of tools that allow players to see, with a degree of accuracy, how they actually measure up to their own and other's expectations.

 

The doublethink in this section is astounding. You just bragged how awesome it is to kick other players from the team above, but then fall back into "Oh, it's about measuring how good we do" shtick. You use ArcDPS as a tool to root out all the undesirables, and as such have developed a pervasive paranoia over being on the chopping block yourself. You've convinced yourself that there's some grand, greater evil that needs to be defeated, but really it is all about hating other players that inconvenience you. "Oh no, this person wants to have fun, but he's not as good as I'd want him to be. Better invent a figurative devil to fight so I can demonize him!" Of course, this is an "agenda." It's not a demeanor, or a mindset, or a habit. It's a plan, hashed out by a set of underlying intentions, all just to inconvenience your pretendy fun-time. I mean, it's not like you're doing THE EXACT SAME THING RIGHT NOW with this post.

 

Not ONCE have you brought up the real problem that players have, which is when they're kicked needlessly, callously, or without warning due to the presence of DPS meters in the game. Not ONCE did you bring up that the game was purposefully designed with open world events, no DPS meter, no inspection option, and shared loot just to combat the elitism and toxicity that undue scrutiny creates. There is no way that you are completely unaware of all this. Instead, you'd rather pretend to be intellectual while audaciously creating your own thread on the subject, just to get more notoriety. See, I could understand doing this if you actually had a unique, meticulously researched, valuable perspective on the matter. But you don't. You just hate bads. The only good that comes from responding to this post is to explain to others how undignified this post is for a response.

 

EDIT: Well, the threads just got merged, so this post is now out of context. Originally it was written in response to a completely different thread, which is why I'm unusually high aggro here.

[tethyr.6513]

It seems like a lot of people subjectively believe that they are getting kicked from groups solely over their lack of DPS. I run T4 Fractals almost daily, and not only would I never kick someone over their DPS, I rarely ever see it occur - and I do said Fractals nearly 95% of the time with PUGs.

 

I also don't join groups that talk about DPS and immediately drop ones that do. Whenever the moment comes that we might need to kick someone because we're wiping, we always start with 'Who is ignoring the mechanics?,' 'Who is always down almost immediately?', or - the best one - 'Who is the raging know-it-all toxic hot mess?' Kicking that last one tends to immediately fix all performance issues.

 

ArcDPS isn't the problem. It's a combo of toxic players and players that come to group content unprepared. There is no 'I' in teamwork, and being a nice guy (gal) doesn't earn you the right to be carried. Being a nasty know-it-all (even as the god-tier player you think/know you are) earns you the privilege of getting kicked.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

At the moment I think the issue is the convoluted nature of DPS in this game. Back when City of Heroes was a thing, the maximum DPS a build could do was usually just using 3 or 4 skills on repeat, with one of them on auto. In Runescape, it was having high stats. In Phantasy Star, it was about spamming the right skills over and over and having the right gear for the encounter. In DCUO it was about having a preset order of combo attacks + special attacks, and DPS wasn't really heavily emphasized (at least not for lower level raids).

 

The point being that, for all the games I've ever played online, Guild Wars 2 has _the most difficult requirements for good DPS_. I've never seen a game that can have multiple hidden timers on multiple skills in a high action RPG, wherein merely breaking order creates severe deficits in damage. I've never seen a game where the goal of doing damage was to avoid using your auto attack as much as possible, because the auto attack is nigh useless for sustained DPS. I've never seen a game where the damage rotation took longer than 30 seconds to complete. I've never seen a game where high-end content is based around having a boon that makes all actions 50% faster and all skills recharge much faster. Doing damage in this game is almost like playing a symphony, except you have to dodge thrown bricks while conducting.

 

This game really sets you up for failure. It is really easy to be bad at GW2. There are some classes that are worse than others, but I wonder why it has to be this way. I mean, who looked at the engineer and said "Yes, having to constantly swap in and out of kits to use DPS skills with hidden cooldowns is a good thing." For awhile, we could just camp bomb kit and do nearly 30k DPS. But, Anet changed that. The renegade currently has to weapon swap AND legend swap to do good DPS, using 11 different skills with precise energy timing. It didn't use to be that hard. Don't get me started on staff weaver.

 

The easiest way to resolve this issue is to massively increase the DPS that auto attacks do in PVE. The base auto attack shouldn't be 1/3rd of our possible DPS. The auto attack is the default, and if it is terrible then the default performance of a player is also terrible.

[santso.9201]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> At the moment I think the issue is the convoluted nature of DPS in this game. Back when City of Heroes was a thing, the maximum DPS a build could do was usually just using 3 or 4 skills on repeat, with one of them on auto. In Runescape, it was having high stats. In Phantasy Star, it was about spamming the right skills over and over and having the right gear for the encounter. In DCUO it was about having a preset order of combo attacks + special attacks, and DPS wasn't really heavily emphasized (at least not for lower level raids).

>

> The point being that, for all the games I've ever played online, Guild Wars 2 has _the most difficult requirements for good DPS_. I've never seen a game that can have multiple hidden timers on multiple skills in a high action RPG, wherein merely breaking order creates severe deficits in damage. I've never seen a game where the goal of doing damage was to avoid using your auto attack as much as possible, because the auto attack is nigh useless for sustained DPS. I've never seen a game where the damage rotation took longer than 30 seconds to complete. I've never seen a game where high-end content is based around having a boon that makes all actions 50% faster and all skills recharge much faster. Doing damage in this game is almost like playing a symphony, except you have to dodge thrown bricks while conducting.

>

> This game really sets you up for failure. It is really easy to be bad at GW2. There are some classes that are worse than others, but I wonder why it has to be this way. I mean, who looked at the engineer and said "Yes, having to constantly swap in and out of kits to use DPS skills with hidden cooldowns is a good thing." For awhile, we could just camp bomb kit and do nearly 30k DPS. But, Anet changed that. The renegade currently has to weapon swap AND legend swap to do good DPS, using 11 different skills with precise energy timing. It didn't use to be that hard. Don't get me started on staff weaver.

>

> The easiest way to resolve this issue is to massively increase the DPS that auto attacks do in PVE. The base auto attack shouldn't be 1/3rd of our possible DPS. The auto attack is the default, and if it is terrible then the default performance of a player is also terrible.

 

I mean you could play dedeye or staff DD and mostly aa to have good dps?

[yann.1946]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"InvaGir.9158" said:

> > > @"tasmaniajones.4376" said:

> > > I don't think the analytics tools are the issue here; and this isn't the first time I've seen this issue brought up. The real issue is that some commanders have poor communication skills and just want everything for themselves by setting unrealistic expectations.

> > >

> > > My suggestion would be to find groups that can actually communicate well and have realistic expectations - they do exist if you look for them.

> >

> > How do you explain that some people can literally read your gear/build/inventory/bank.

> > The thought of that is terrifying right?! But I was a victim to this kind of kitten several times.

>

> first: these are in fact bannable offenses, and have been removed as feature from arc dps a long time ago. (inventory and bank was never been able to read though)

> second: i couldn´t care less if someone did that with my account. i wouldn´t go so far and call myself victim.

 

Unless you've given you're api key.

[tethyr.6513]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> At the moment I think the issue is the convoluted nature of DPS in this game. Back when City of Heroes was a thing, the maximum DPS a build could do was usually just using 3 or 4 skills on repeat, with one of them on auto. In Runescape, it was having high stats. In Phantasy Star, it was about spamming the right skills over and over and having the right gear for the encounter. In DCUO it was about having a preset order of combo attacks + special attacks, and DPS wasn't really heavily emphasized (at least not for lower level raids).

[ ... ]

> The easiest way to resolve this issue is to massively increase the DPS that auto attacks do in PVE. The base auto attack shouldn't be 1/3rd of our possible DPS. The auto attack is the default, and if it is terrible then the default performance of a player is also terrible.

 

You're right, GW2 doesn't hold your hand. Even less so with end-game/max-level content. Unlike most of the games you mentioned however, it offers a vast amount of information that players can look up on their own, be it through the wiki, Dulfy, SnowCrows, MetaBattle, YouTube or a plethora of other websites, in considerable detail.

 

GW2 doesn't set people up for failure. Individuals set themselves up for failure by choosing not to look up information on their own, take the time to learn how to properly play any given profession or the mechanics of a difficult encounter, and just plain expecting everything to be simplified and handed to them. GW2 isn't that game (beyond the Core Open World). I particularly enjoy it because it isn't any of those games you listed.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"tethyr.6513" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > At the moment I think the issue is the convoluted nature of DPS in this game. Back when City of Heroes was a thing, the maximum DPS a build could do was usually just using 3 or 4 skills on repeat, with one of them on auto. In Runescape, it was having high stats. In Phantasy Star, it was about spamming the right skills over and over and having the right gear for the encounter. In DCUO it was about having a preset order of combo attacks + special attacks, and DPS wasn't really heavily emphasized (at least not for lower level raids).

> [ ... ]

> > The easiest way to resolve this issue is to massively increase the DPS that auto attacks do in PVE. The base auto attack shouldn't be 1/3rd of our possible DPS. The auto attack is the default, and if it is terrible then the default performance of a player is also terrible.

>

> You're right, GW2 doesn't hold your hand. Even less so with end-game/max-level content. Unlike most of the games you mentioned however, it offers a vast amount of information that players can look up on their own, be it through the wiki, Dulfy, SnowCrows, MetaBattle, YouTube or a plethora of other websites, in considerable detail.

>

> GW2 doesn't set people up for failure. Individuals set themselves up for failure by choosing not to look up information on their own, take the time to learn how to properly play any given profession or the mechanics of a difficult encounter, and just plain expecting everything to be simplified and handed to them. GW2 isn't that game (beyond the Core Open World). I particularly enjoy it because it isn't any of those games you listed.

 

You don't know what you don't know. A player is going to have no inclination to look up these fan-made websites, because the game doesn't direct players to them at all. Really, the game tells you very little, and what it gives players is purposefully inept skills.

 

There's no value to making the game neglectful or convoluted. You just end up with worse players, and all the toxicity that comes from having to deal with massive skill gaps. The unskilled players feel bad and get abused, the skilled players get mad and paranoid, mistakes become overly punishing, and nobody really benefits from this system. Some players spend days practicing the rotations of their class, and that is not O.K. This just means there's a large, community enforced, abstract barrier to entry.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Dps meter is not wanted or needed.ppl shouldnt use it

[zealex.9410]

> @"nosleepdemon.1368" said:

> > @"Applejuice.4083" said:

> > ArcDPS is the problem, it is a third party program that breeds toxicity among you elitist individuals. Attacking players who do 1k damage difference from what is meta. I have seen people who use this program go as far as to issue out IRL death threats or making snarky comments like " My grandma can out dps this kid" etc, etc. I have seen people who get DC'd from a raid because of ArcDps then leech the boss at the end by coming back.

>

> You can't seriously argue that Arc DPS is the cause of such behaviour, that's on the individuals themselves. Anti social players will remain anti social no matter what, party kicks, death threats and accusations of poor performance will not go away just because you take the proverbial sledge hammer to the nail.

 

We had ppl being toxic and anti social before dps meter and we still do. I dont think its the metters that cause or promote this.

[Zychuu.7294]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Not ONCE have you brought up the real problem that players have, which is when they're kicked needlessly, callously, or without warning due to the presence of DPS meters in the game. Not ONCE did you bring up that the game was purposefully designed with open world events, no DPS meter, no inspection option, and shared loot just to combat the elitism and toxicity that undue scrutiny creates.

 

That whole response is so damn good. I'm not quoting this whole wall of text but good job nonetheless. I believe that this part is really hitting the core of the disagreement. I feel like most people are leaving out ArenaNet's role as a game designer here. After all they are the one creating the game, and our role is to provide feedback, speak up how we like it or not, then take it or not. NOT 'fix' the game to our needs ourselves, and what's worse, often in a way that affects other people around us. And this is what my problem with ALL addons in MMO games is, including, but not limited to dps meters. Sooner or later players who want to play the game they are presented with are expected to use, or at least be measured with 3rd party software being part of neither the game nor design of the content. And this is IMHO where many problems arise from. Groups of fundamentally different kind of players, one playing the game as ArenaNet intended clash with group of people who claim that they have understanding of the game so deep they have right to alter the experience to their needs and visions. Take a notice how I entirely skip claiming whether dps meters are 'good or bad' for the game as I find it irrelevant in this discussion. My point is only that they are not part of the design and the game we are playing.

 

Basically I almost feel like this whole argument is entirely invalid at it's core. 3rd part software will always be THIRD party, i.e. NOT part of the game. Allowing certain functionalities or not is a design decision, not 'addon-policy' one. If some people really want dps meters(or any other addon feature for that matter) they should keep asking ArenaNet for including it in the game, not force their vision of the game on random people around them. As long as it is not part of the game... it is not part of the game. Like it or not. Is it really that hard?