Hynax.9536 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 There is no point on changing a system that already works for what it is supposed to do. Rare drops exist on every MMO for a reason, they won't bring more players, they are there cause there are people that like this kind of content and keep playing for it. We don't need to change that and kill players to get players, it would be better to add more content to an existing event/activity (e.g. pvp and wvw reward tracks for dungeon stuff), or creating new events with new rewards and new goals that attracts people that is interested on them. If you don't like some content, it is not fair ask to change it just cause you want something you can't acquire by other methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Hynax.9536" said: > There is no point on changing a system that already works for what it is supposed to do. Rare drops exist on every MMO for a reason, they won't bring more players, they are there cause there are people that like this kind of content and keep playing for it. We don't need to change that and kill players to get players, it would be better to add more content to an existing event/activity (e.g. pvp and wvw reward tracks for dungeon stuff), or creating new events with new rewards and new goals that attracts people that is interested on them. If you don't like some content, it is not fair ask to change it just cause you want something you can't acquire by other methods. Yup, it works so well that MMO genre is at it's finest right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > > > > > > > > Challenges > RNG > > > > > > > > > > Change my mind > > > > > > > > > Not everyone is up to the challenge and as this game caters mostly to casuals, catering to challenge seekers will kill this game. That's why I feel for this game your proposition fails. Having said that there is more than challenge and RNG. There is also grind or repetition that is not based on RNG like this game has plenty of already. The solution may lie in having people work for it rather than it being subject to RNG. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not a big fan of RNG in general because it's not about challenge and it's not about working towards a goal but just being lucky. There is a saying that goes like this: _stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My view is that RNG is closely related to this saying. Make of that what you will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think casuals will be happy to have different rewards every week (they can be still based on rng but with much higher chances) > > > > > > > > And challenges that involve common actions are not so hard either > > > > > > > > And if we put super rare items behind super hard content i think for casual it is the same as what they are doing now, in terms that they won't get it for long > > > > > > > > But if we put it behind super hard content wall, at least they will know that they can guranteed get that one day > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is just about what you want the way you want it. If you put things behind a "super hard content wall" it will only be achieved by the super few. That's not a sensible thing to do. > > > > > > > Besides, I don't think that you are suggesting putting super rare items behind a "super hard content wall" because that will automatically mean they will never get it. I can see how it serves your purposes but I have no reason to believe it serves the greater community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please say how many people have Chak Egg Sac right now? > > > > > > I think having <1% chance to get the thing is more then an argument to people not having the item. > > > > > > Actually i'm pretty sure more people can get those super rare items if you put it behind the VERY HARD wall. > > > > > > That also means that the price will drop eventually, and those that can't complete it at least will be able to buy it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're sure, I'm not. So why would you be more right than me? > > > > > > > > > > Besides, have you ever considered that ArenaNet actually wants some super rare items in the game and that making it more readily available would be contrary to their goals? > > > > > > > > I made some research and i have an experience in different games, that's probably why? > > > I also have experience in different games and have done research as well. However, I have not seen enough facts to support that this would be a good idea. > > > > They do it only so players keep playing their game because of illusionary chance to get that item. > > > A small chance is not an illusory chance. Extremely unlikely sure, but it's not an illusion because there is an actual chance and some people have been lucky, but yes this why they do it, so it meets their goal of keeping certain people playing (not everybody cares enough about chac eggs after all). And that's my point.. it serves a purpose. This is not your purpose but running a game isn't about individual needs but group needs and overall goals. > > > > If i wanted to play lottery i would buy it in the nearest shop, and still it would be better then spending months on that super-rare item. > > > > Even financially. > > > Well playing the lottery probably has a smaller chance of winning and it costs money every time you participate. The interesting thing though is that you say playing the lottery is better, even financially and yet you play GW2 and not the lottery. Something is not adding up here... > > > > > > > > > > I'm not playing GW2 anymore actually. Because of those reasons and because there are already games on the market that do it right. But i don't want GW2 to die. > Alright, that's fair enough. That explains that part to me. > > I still don't see how replacing 1 super rare reward with different not-so-rare rewards on weekly basis will somehow kill that game. I see more options here, why do you think it is bad? > Now don't start exaggerating. I never said it would kill the game. What I am saying is that doing this will serve a smaller purpose than the one it's serving now. So I do not see why ArenaNet would be interested in making the changes you suggest. Because what you gain will be a loss to others and that only makes sense if more people win than there would be people who lose out. I'm sure that the people who did get it so far would be ticked off when this item would become more reliable to acquire and I also suspect that players that aren't so skilled that have been killing the chak gerent many times in the hopes of getting this drop will also be ticked off. > > Smaller purpose - that's debatable. How is getting more variety in rewards + guranteed way to get the item would piss people off? Elitists who complain could get the title so they can say that they got it by the touch of RNG god Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hynax.9536 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 So now you blame MMO's popularity decay on a simple stuff like some rare drops from bosses... what next? If there are players playing the game and doing a specific content, then this content is doing its work very well. Like i said before, it is not there to bring more players, just keep the ones known to like this kind of stuff and so there is no reason to change it. If you want more players then create more content, try to hit what they like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Hynax.9536" said: > So now you blame MMO's popularity decay on a simple stuff like some rare drops from bosses... what next? If there are players playing the game and doing a specific content, then this content is doing its work very well. Like i said before, it is not there to bring more players, just keep the ones known to like this kind of stuff and so there is no reason to change it. If you want more players then create more content, try to hit what they like... Uh-oh, and what if we try to bring more players by changing the old content? Not in the drastic way, but so both audiences can enjoy it? Not an option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hynax.9536 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > Uh-oh, and what if we try to bring more players by changing the old content? Not in the drastic way, but so both audiences can enjoy it? Not an option? > Now you're being ridiculous cause this is exactly what i said on my first answer... > @"Hynax.9536" said: > ...We don't need to change that and kill players to get players, it would be better to add more content to an existing event/activity (e.g. pvp and wvw reward tracks for dungeon stuff)... My only concern here is that there is no reason to kill RNG, add wathever you want to attract more players but leave it there. Give any other reward, do a second style of Chack Egg Sac or Confetti Infusion and put it on a stupid hard long time-gated full of grind collection but leave the original there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 Extremely rare loot drops are a staple of the RPG/MMO genre. They are always an addition, a bonus, not something you should ever expect to get. If you want you can farm and grind to get something, but as it stands they have a right to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Hynax.9536" said: > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > > Uh-oh, and what if we try to bring more players by changing the old content? Not in the drastic way, but so both audiences can enjoy it? Not an option? > > > Now you're being ridiculous cause this is exactly what i said on my first answer... > > > @"Hynax.9536" said: > > ...We don't need to change that and kill players to get players, it would be better to add more content to an existing event/activity (e.g. pvp and wvw reward tracks for dungeon stuff)... > My only concern here is that there is no reason to kill RNG, add wathever you want to attract more players but leave it there. Give any other reward, do a second style of Chack Egg Sac or Confetti Infusion and put it on a stupid hard long time-gated full of grind collection but leave the original there. Sorry, misunderstood, my english is very stronk. Dunno, i just think it is poor design choice to make things with that RNG chances, that's more about manipulation the minds and not actual gaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > Extremely rare loot drops are a staple of the RPG/MMO genre. They are always an addition, a bonus, not something you should ever expect to get. If you want you can farm and grind to get something, but as it stands they have a right to exist. That is interesting. Do you know where did it came from? As a tradition. I don't have that information so i'm asking, that's very interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > Extremely rare loot drops are a staple of the RPG/MMO genre. They are always an addition, a bonus, not something you should ever expect to get. If you want you can farm and grind to get something, but as it stands they have a right to exist. > > That is interesting. Do you know where did it came from? As a tradition. I don't have that information so i'm asking, that's very interesting It came from the very first rpg, dungeons and dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > Extremely rare loot drops are a staple of the RPG/MMO genre. They are always an addition, a bonus, not something you should ever expect to get. If you want you can farm and grind to get something, but as it stands they have a right to exist. > > > > That is interesting. Do you know where did it came from? As a tradition. I don't have that information so i'm asking, that's very interesting > > It came from the very first rpg, dungeons and dragons. As far as i read right now it is wrong. Rarity in tabletop is made so people don't get legendary weapons on early lvls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > Extremely rare loot drops are a staple of the RPG/MMO genre. They are always an addition, a bonus, not something you should ever expect to get. If you want you can farm and grind to get something, but as it stands they have a right to exist. > > > > > > That is interesting. Do you know where did it came from? As a tradition. I don't have that information so i'm asking, that's very interesting > > > > It came from the very first rpg, dungeons and dragons. > > As far as i read right now it is wrong. > Rarity in tabletop is made so people don't get legendary weapons on early lvls In DnD rarity has nothing to do with not getting legendary weapons at early levels. Loot tables were level gated to ensure that a low level character could only get rewards appropriate for the current level of the campaign. Nothing would ruin a game faster than a level 3 character getting access to gear that allowed him to completely overshadow all other players and deprive the campaign of any sense of challenge and adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > Extremely rare loot drops are a staple of the RPG/MMO genre. They are always an addition, a bonus, not something you should ever expect to get. If you want you can farm and grind to get something, but as it stands they have a right to exist. > > > > > > > > That is interesting. Do you know where did it came from? As a tradition. I don't have that information so i'm asking, that's very interesting > > > > > > It came from the very first rpg, dungeons and dragons. > > > > As far as i read right now it is wrong. > > Rarity in tabletop is made so people don't get legendary weapons on early lvls > > In DnD rarity has nothing to do with not getting legendary weapons at early levels. Loot tables were level gated to ensure that a low level character could only get rewards appropriate for the current level of the campaign. Nothing would ruin a game faster than a level 3 character getting access to gear that allowed him to completely overshadow all other players and deprive the campaign of any sense of challenge and adventure. Anyways that's not the case here. Those items in GW2 mostly affect your visuals, and that's why they being wanted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 I can understand the frustration with RNG in games. There are good things about RNG, though. + Currently, the GW2 reward system features a lot of rewards that are _incremental_. That is, you have to accumulate a bunch of stuff to earn that reward (e.g., craft a Legendary Weapon, craft Ascended gear, collections). Psychologically, this method works for players who (apparently like the OP) want certainty. Completing a certainty reward is likely to provide a sense of satisfaction. However, there are downsides to this method, because some players see it as grind, and lacking in excitement. + RNG rewards work differently as far as psychology goes. The function by _serendipity_, which provides a sense of both anticipation each time you get an opportunity for the rare drop, and what for many will be a greater sense of satisfaction if they get it. The downside of course, is that you may never get that rare drop. As I said, there are a lot more incremental rewards in GW2 than there are RNG ones. It benefits ANet to have both in the game, because different types of players prefer one method over the other. A game that appeals to more people is likely to be better off than a game that ignores one demographic in favor of the other. If anything, those who favor serendipity might argue that the pendulum needs to swing in their direction, rather than removing the pendulum entirely to their detriment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > As I said, there are a lot more incremental rewards in GW2 than there are RNG ones. It benefits ANet to have both in the game, because different types of players prefer one method over the other. A game that appeals to more people is likely to be better off than a game that ignores one demographic in favor of the other. If anything, those who favor serendipity might argue that the pendulum needs to swing in their direction, rather than removing the pendulum entirely to their detriment. Sane RNG is fine. I'm talking about extreme <0.1% RNG cases. Most people will get nothing and even couldn't afford to buy it because it is so rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"phs.6089" said: > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > > @"phs.6089" said: > > > that is the only thing that keeps TD meta alive for 3 years, the hope for chack egg sac drop. Why would they make it into another Serpent Ire? > > How is anything that i suggest is close to the Serpent Ire? > > And if only thing that keeps TD meta alive is chag egg sac drop then it MUST be reworked. > > People will get those achievements in no time, sac will drop in price to almost nothing, TD meta will become abandoned as not profitable just like Serpent Ire. > > Raiders that are forced to ger chack eggs for Envoy will be forced to run it just by themselves. Prolly will make a meta build and ask for kill proof to join TD meta ;) TD's profitability won't change. The potential profitability will plummet. It's more a psychological than economic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > As I said, there are a lot more incremental rewards in GW2 than there are RNG ones. It benefits ANet to have both in the game, because different types of players prefer one method over the other. A game that appeals to more people is likely to be better off than a game that ignores one demographic in favor of the other. If anything, those who favor serendipity might argue that the pendulum needs to swing in their direction, rather than removing the pendulum entirely to their detriment. > Sane RNG is fine. I'm talking about extreme <0.1% RNG cases. Most people will get nothing and even couldn't afford to buy it because it is so rare. > Those are precisely the rewards that those who favor RNG drops want. The non-rare stuff is both easily gotten and not worth much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > Those are precisely the rewards that those who favor RNG drops want. The non-rare stuff is both easily gotten and not worth much. I'm pretty sure most people here farming that item not because they like RNG drops, but because it is super expensive and it have nice visuals. And even if they want it, for most people idea that they will get it one day is a lie. Most people won't. Spending so much time on it is not good, again it smells like psychological manipulation. I think satisfaction could be much greater if bosses could award different rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasimir.6239 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > I think casuals will be happy to have different rewards every week (they can be still based on rng but with much higher chances) Actually a sizeable group of players play this game precisely because you can play it at your own schedule, instead of having to rush and put in hours because the reward you are after will be gone next week. Putting rewards on a rotating schedule will do nothing for those players, and may in fact turn as many (if not more) of them off the game as it will lure in others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Rasimir.6239" said: > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > I think casuals will be happy to have different rewards every week (they can be still based on rng but with much higher chances) > Actually a sizeable group of players play this game precisely because you can play it at your own schedule, instead of having to rush and put in hours because the reward you are after will be gone next week. Putting rewards on a rotating schedule will do nothing for those players, and may in fact turn as many (if not more) of them off the game as it will lure in others. Even among people who play every day, there's a burn out factor. A lot of the folks I see regularly do festival dailies religiously for 7-10 days and then stop. They feel like they are losing rewards, but.. they just can't maintain the momentum. Same thing happens with some labyrinth or wonderland farmers. And, for those of us who played during LS1, it happened then, too. The rapid release cadence cut both ways: it was both exhilarating & exhausting to have new things to work on, sometimes as often as 2x in a month. I don't know what fraction of players fits the "too much of a good thing" category; I just know it's a substantial group. I'm sure it's also a big group that would be energized to have new rewards every week. I just don't think we can predict whether it's good for the game, for the community, or even for the majority of "casuals" or "hardcores." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Rasimir.6239" said: > > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > I think casuals will be happy to have different rewards every week (they can be still based on rng but with much higher chances) > Actually a sizeable group of players play this game precisely because you can play it at your own schedule, instead of having to rush and put in hours because the reward you are after will be gone next week. Putting rewards on a rotating schedule will do nothing for those players, and may in fact turn as many (if not more) of them off the game as it will lure in others. @"IndigoSundown.5419" No one says those rewards couldn't repeat, if you miss it then you can try to do it in the next window of opportunity. Btw, i'm talking about those changes in the context of game getting rid of lootboxes. If there are people that love random rewards, why not to put here a random chance to get random dye And dye kits will be available in the gemstore in form of palletes, so you buy the whole set of dyes. Or you can play with RNG and get random dye from that kit, hmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 Lootboxes? I thought this suggestion was about the RNG on boss drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Cherdakuru.5841" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > Those are precisely the rewards that those who favor RNG drops want. The non-rare stuff is both easily gotten and not worth much. > I'm pretty sure most people here farming that item not because they like RNG drops, but because it is super expensive and it have nice visuals. > And even if they want it, for most people idea that they will get it one day is a lie. Most people won't. > Spending so much time on it is not good, again it smells like psychological manipulation. > I think satisfaction could be much greater if bosses could award different rewards. > > As you mention, as your first listed reason, people want it because it is expensive. Without a very low drop rate it would lose that feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said: > Lootboxes? I thought this suggestion was about the RNG on boss drops. They are kinda connected to each others, all those topics, at least in my head lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherdakuru.5841 Posted December 24, 2018 Author Share Posted December 24, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > As you mention, as your first listed reason, people want it because it is expensive. Without a very low drop rate it would lose that feature. If people want a way to get rich with miracle RNG chance why not to add some kind of treasure randomly spawning in the world for 1 minute or close to that Like you find chest and you get lots of money. They can spread the whispers about it in announcement Maybe someone will find it eventually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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