"Condi builds are easier to play" and the widely accepted truth of how and why.

[Crab Fear.1624]

apply and run

 

apply and move forward

 

apply and enemey panics

 

ez pz

 

no argument you have

 

gg no re

[Sampson.2403]

Lol at everyone who is saying that condi mirage isn't busted. For 95% ot the player base, mirage is busted for sure and thats why i play it xD.

 

Power mirage was busted too before the recent confounding suggestion nerf. Oof those were the days, loved that build.

 

For the other 5% of the player base (the elite players) they're on another level and their world of what's busted is completely different which is why they say mirage isnt OP.

[Curennos.9307]

The viability/strength of anything in the PvP area of the game can change extremely quickly and easily if you adjust how much telegraph it has.

 

I don't think that anyone is complaining that this or that has too much damage so much as the meta consists entirely of ensuring your opponent can react as little as possible to what you're doing - hence mirage, Steal, and the relevance of Quickness.

 

Small example. What if Mesmers didn't count as a clone for Shatters anymore, and that damage was moved over to their clones? Same damage, no more instant cast on part of the damage.

 

Of course, the lackluster information provided by the combat log and death recap certainly contribute. As a general rule, I despise FPS games, but I can at least acknowledge they did one thing right - kill cams. Glorious concept.

 

Hell, the combat log won't even tell me what I got CC'ed by...and eles STILL have to deal with the stupid 'Mist form dealt 20k damage'...????? Ridiculous.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Fail to avoid a power attack, instant chunk of health gone.

Fail to avoid giant red AOE circles on the ground (scourge) or clones running towards you (mesmer), etc., you can still cleanse or pop resistance/invuln and let the condis tick, avoiding most or all damage.

But condi is easier to play (do damage with)? Really?

 

How often do the only two viable condi builds in sPvP take the top damage stat? Anecdotally, I usually see that going to warriors, thieves, and engineers (holosmith)--all power builds.

[Abazigal.3679]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> Fail to avoid a power attack, instant chunk of health gone.

> Fail to avoid giant red AOE circles on the ground (scourge) or clones running towards you (mesmer), etc., you can still cleanse or pop resistance/invuln and let the condis tick, avoiding most or all damage.

> But condi is easier to play (do damage with)? Really?

>

> How often do the only two viable condi builds in sPvP take the top damage stat? Anecdotally, I usually see that going to warriors, thieves, and engineers (holosmith)--all power builds.

 

Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run DPS warrior or thief, my bets that he won't be above 1000 after 150-200 games. Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run scourge and to directly go mid and spam AoE's, my bets he will be around 1100-1200 after 150-200 games.

 

People aren't saying condi is easier to play than DPS generally. People say condi is easier because it's much more complicated to deal with conditions from a 5v5 point of view than dealing with physical damage.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"Abazigal.3679"

 

The most frequent complaints, in this thread at least, seem to be that "condi is easier" because:

 

• They have less obvious animations

• Cover conditions can give primary conditions more chance to stick

 

What is so readily forgotten, it seems, is the _damage over time_ nature of condition damage. This means that builds that rely almost exclusively on conditions for dealing damage must have some way to make them (1) land, and (2) stick. These requirements are basically addressed by the two common complaints above.

 

People forget, or worse, ignore, the ample, arguably overtuned, condition cleanse and resistance in the game, which completely negate condition damage, on top of evades and invulnerabilities that negate all types of damage. Direct damage, by contrast, only has one chance to be avoided, and that's at initial application. It can be mitigated by toughness and boons, but so long as it connects, it will do decent damage--instantly.

 

So according to the complainers: Relying entirely on the _chance_ that some of one's condition application survives dodges, evades, resistance, reflection, boon conversion, and cleanse, to eventually shave off some of an opponent's health over time (during which they are still free to fight back or run), is "easy mode". But going around spamming physical strikes or projectiles that do instant damage is not.

 

The fact there are only two viable condi builds that stand a _chance_ of keeping up with the far more numerous power builds speaks for itself. Condi is not inherently easier. If anything, its damage is more negatable. Those complaining about it just need to figure that out.

 

 

 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

At this point I do have to agree that conditions in general aren't exactly the issue, I do think they need to take another look at some of the Condition stats that are too tanky while still letting condis melt opponents (trailblazer and other hybrid setups), but all in all my personal issue, as was iterated on by Grimjack, is that Mirage has way, way too many sustain/survival options that make them difficult enough to kill already while being able to still apply these conditions. This is true for their power builds as well.

 

Typically even if you do get an opportunity to land a CC on them, through timing around their evades/dodges and stunbreaks then they will *still* just pop Mirage Cloak and evade for the duration of the CC. Thats...not appropriate functionality for how this game works. You should feel rewarded for actually landing a CC and the Mirage should feel punished for having their skills played around but that simply is not the case right now and that needs to be looked at. Keep Mirage Cloak, fine, but don't let Mirages use it while CC'd. That is all I'd ask.

[SteepledHat.1345]

> @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > Fail to avoid a power attack, instant chunk of health gone.

> > Fail to avoid giant red AOE circles on the ground (scourge) or clones running towards you (mesmer), etc., you can still cleanse or pop resistance/invuln and let the condis tick, avoiding most or all damage.

> > But condi is easier to play (do damage with)? Really?

> >

> > How often do the only two viable condi builds in sPvP take the top damage stat? Anecdotally, I usually see that going to warriors, thieves, and engineers (holosmith)--all power builds.

>

> Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run DPS warrior or thief, my bets that he won't be above 1000 after 150-200 games. Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run scourge and to directly go mid and spam AoE's, my bets he will be around 1100-1200 after 150-200 games.

>

> People aren't saying condi is easier to play than DPS generally. People say condi is easier because it's much more complicated to deal with conditions from a 5v5 point of view than dealing with physical damage.

 

Most bronzers don't even know what a condi cleanse is though. So of course they aren't going to do well against it. They don't even know what the conditions are! These are ranking below our lovely botters. I mean, really.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Grimjack.8130" I think you're misunderstanding what people mean when they say "condi is easier to play than power". Let me clarify a couple things:

 

1. When someone says that "condi builds are easier to play than power", that is not the same as saying "condi builds are more OP than power".

2. Condi builds are indeed mechanically easier to play than power builds. Why are you people telling you this and what do they mean? Well I assume they are referencing all condi builds vs. their power counterparts and the difference in mechanical skill required to play those builds. Let's take a look at a reference point of historically popular condi builds vs. their power ounterparts:

 

**Power Mesmers** - These builds have always been notoriously difficult to learn to play and even more difficult to master.

**Condi Mesmers** - These builds currently are much easier to play, much easier to master, and even offer higher efficiency than their power counterparts.

 

**Power Thieves** - These builds are difficult to play, even though some are easy to learn, they are difficult to master, but offer high skill caps.

**Condi Thieves** - Although they offer low skill cap, literally the only thing you have to do to play this build, is dodge roll around someone.

 

**Power Necros** - Always has been easy to learn and offers a lot of efficiency for the skill entry level, but it requires a special kind of player to be great at it.

**Condi Necros** - Skill entry is so low here, that Scourge is well known as the ever forgiving "easy class to play for beginners" <- A widely accepted truth.

 

Here are some other less mainstream examples of other classes that have never really been meta for condi:

 

**Power Warriors** - Easy to get started and understand what you are supposed to be doing, not so easy to do it properly. Very rewarding if done properly.

**Condi Warriors** - It isn't so strong anymore, but these builds are easy to run with all the random large burn AoEs.

 

**Power Guardians** - Support or not, these are easy to get into, not so easy to master. There is a lot going on here with when or when not to take actions.

**Condi Guardians** - Support or not, these aren't too different than Power Guardians, maybe the only comparison I'd say that has equal skill standards.

 

**Power Revenants** - Difficult skill entry but rewarding if understood, difficult to master because it offers narrow dynamic that must be played cautiously.

**Condi Revenants** - Never was good, but the builds are much simpler to run than Power Revenants as they have much less to do in terms of skill usage.

 

**Power Engineers** - Moderately difficult entry level and moderately difficult to master, always has been rewarding if mastered, even back in Core & HoT.

**Condi Engineers** - Terribly inefficient, but easier to play because its kit is just one big burn burst macro. Outside of that, dodge roll and position correctly.

 

**Power Rangers** - Relatively easy entry level with overly rewarding perks, but very difficult to master and very dangerous if mastered in this current meta.

**Condi Rangers** - Not viable, but extremely easy to learn, understand & play, as they're primarily based around trap spam, mechanics like a Scourge.

 

**Power/Condi Eles** - No way to compare this as popular Ele builds have always either been both power & condi at the same time, or simply full support.

 

But all of this above ^

 

That's what people mean when they say condi is easier to play.

 

[Milan.9035]

So they are easier to play but not viable. Got it...

 

I think the peoblem is that the game has only these type of players left.

 

Condi right now is much worse than power. Only 2 condi builds are meta.

 

Easier or harder not much difference, nor does that difference make any difference.

 

Its not like condi scourge is meta because its easy.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players.

>

> It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves.

>

> Look at some of the best power skills in the meta:

>

> Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup.

> Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap

> Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now.

> Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault.

>

> Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta:

>

> All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations

> Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities

> Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE

>

> TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2.

 

Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself?

 

Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs.

 

It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op.

 

Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land .

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players.

> >

> > It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves.

> >

> > Look at some of the best power skills in the meta:

> >

> > Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup.

> > Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap

> > Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now.

> > Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault.

> >

> > Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta:

> >

> > All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations

> > Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities

> > Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE

> >

> > TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2.

>

> Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself?

>

> Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs.

>

> It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op.

>

> Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land .

 

You realize being easy to play and being overpowered are two extremely different concepts right?

 

You are literally attacking my post for a point I wasn't even making.

 

Chill the f*** out and reflect on your life choices.

[coro.3176]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> I think part of the problem is that the only viable condi builds are also the worst offenders as far as spam. Mirage, thief, and necro tend to have the most spamming as far as condis go. Other classes that could do condi (engineer, warrior, guardian, ranger, ele) simply are not viable in higher tiers because it's super easy to cleanse/counter them. Plague signet on necro alone invalidates a lot of other condi builds.

 

I still play condi engi. Given the amount of cleanse in the game, I basically have to land my risky melee medium-cooldown burst 5 or 6 times in a fight to kill most classes. They only have to land their power burst once.

 

THEN I have to wait for the condi to tick while they have another opportunity to counterattack.

 

AND I can't even run tanky stats like dire/trailblazer to make up for this disadvantage.

 

AND I am super vulnerable to Necro staff 4, the transfer signet, the transfer trait, etc.

 

AND I can't make any damage stick at all if there is a support class cleansing everyone in addition to players' personal cleanse (which is already high).

 

It's pretty stacked in favour of power right now .. at least from my perspective.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > I think part of the problem is that the only viable condi builds are also the worst offenders as far as spam. Mirage, thief, and necro tend to have the most spamming as far as condis go. Other classes that could do condi (engineer, warrior, guardian, ranger, ele) simply are not viable in higher tiers because it's super easy to cleanse/counter them. Plague signet on necro alone invalidates a lot of other condi builds.

>

> I still play condi engi. Given the amount of cleanse in the game, I basically have to land my risky melee medium-cooldown burst 5 or 6 times in a fight to kill most classes. They only have to land their power burst once.

>

> THEN I have to wait for the condi to tick while they have another opportunity to counterattack.

>

> AND I can't even run tanky stats like dire/trailblazer to make up for this disadvantage.

>

> AND I am super vulnerable to Necro staff 4, the transfer signet, the transfer trait, etc.

>

> AND I can't make any damage stick at all if there is a support class cleansing everyone in addition to players' personal cleanse (which is already high).

>

> It's pretty stacked in favour of power right now .. at least from my perspective.

 

Yep, and these problems stem back for a long time. I ran condi engineer pre-HoT, and even then a decent necro could end me no problem. It is way worse now, since classes are stacking tons of cleanse or resistance. At least back then, resistance and cleanses were much rarer/less effective.

 

Classes that are the worst offenders as far as condi spam (mirage, thief, scourge) are making this kind of insane cleansing necessary, which pushes out all other condi builds.

[Arheundel.6451]

Once again this debate pop out on the forum and once again the same arguments are made with people in favour of condi build taking the long oversused emotianal stance playing the well known victim card...why do people insist of using the same arguments to support their claims instead than use actual facts? Could it be that there are no facts to support claims like the one in the OP?

 

The first question which pop into my mind everytime I see these type of threads is : **Why do you like condi this bad?** , there must be an actual reason beyond this choice and for me really the answer is clear : **Playstyle**, below I will list the reasons I believe why people love the condi playstyle in GW2, I am using actual facts and if somebody disagree with them I'd love to know why.

 

1) **Passive Playstyle**

- Playing a condi build in GW2 allows the user to enter a passive stance by forcing the opponent to take the initiative otherwise they'd die easily, the condi user can afford to play the "waiting game" , approach the game from a "fire and forget" point of view , the most simplistic tactic

 

2) **Complete lack of counter condis/boons**

-There are condi dimishing the dmg ratio of power builds ( weakness ) but there is nothing for condis , there are boons who diminish the efficacy of power build and they are available in ample supply for every class (protection/regen) . boons like 'retaliation' straight out dmg back the attacker...again there is nothing that works against condi builds : **condi player can keep launching attacks without ever worrying to check their bar or what boons the enemy has** ....yeah we have 'resistance' but this boon not only comes in a scarce quantity but can be also easily stripped

 

3) **No base line stat that reduce dmg from condis**

- If I build a toughness tank ..I automatically counterplay the vast majority of power builds, some become semi-redudant....what can I use against condis? I either have condi clear off CD or I die, simple as that

 

4) **Insta cast aoe attacks, range AA**

- the application of condis: it's instant , it's aoe and it's on low CD ..finally several low CD skills apply several condis on the same target , on the other hand the vast majority of condi clears skill/trait only deal with 1-2 condis and most time they will deal with the less threatening ones and here we go back to point 1 : "the waiting game" ,.

 

5) **Some condis do too much and are too readily available**

 

-Confusion : punish the enemy for any action - tick dmg over time - stack in intensity for massive dmg spikes and mesmers can easily keep up to 10 stacks at any given time with zero effort

 

-Torment : same as confusion only it punishes the enemy for moving, again mesmer can stack this condition quite reliably and together with confusion

 

-Chill : increase CD , slow movements

 

These 3 condis in particular do too much and can be too easily reapplied

 

 

-Conclusion-

 

With all that said and done, what else there would be to say? ...ha yes...**let me add a comment from the now departed @Jon Peters**, after the condi update in Jan 2015.

 

 

The thread was on the official forum but for some reason it has been removed...but anyway do condi players really wish to keep up with the conversation? I mean condis were updated with PvE in mind and they ended up ruining PvP/WvW ....yes condi builds are way easier to play than power, just gave you the raw facts, I'd love to see condi players to argue against them

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> People say they don't have enough cleanse precisely because they don't dodge the applications. It's like saying you don't have enough armor because you repeatedly take direct damage to the face without trying to avoid it.

>

> And I think the reason why this is the case is simple; most players don't know which skills that apply damaging conditions actually hit hard because they don't pay attention to where the stacks come from. They just notice them once they're already stacked up, and by then, it's probably too late.

 

Ok..so I must dodge this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Axes_of_Symmetry...then this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jaunt...then this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaos_Storm or eat the shatter once I am chilled and ohh..meantime I need to dodge also the confusion shatters and ambush https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Imaginary_Axes...now let me count all the dodges so far..1...2...4...5...6....jesus christ..yeah you said to dodge all the application of condis like I'd dodge a GS f1...good thing then that..**I don't need 5+ dodges to avoid death against a warrior**...I love how condi players keep up with the hyperboles...

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run.

>

> "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

>

> Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

>

> Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

>

> Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

>

> I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

>

> But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

>

> 2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition

> 2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> 2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.

> 12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity

> Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus

> 2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

>

> Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

>

> Or warriors who have:

> Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance

> 12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina

> 6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off

> Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

>

> Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

 

-lesser smite 20s CD traited

-Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited

-Smite condi is 16 CD

- CoP is 32s CD traited

- RF is 84s CD

-There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart...

 

How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players.

> > >

> > > It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves.

> > >

> > > Look at some of the best power skills in the meta:

> > >

> > > Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup.

> > > Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap

> > > Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now.

> > > Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault.

> > >

> > > Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta:

> > >

> > > All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations

> > > Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities

> > > Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE

> > >

> > > TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2.

> >

> > Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself?

> >

> > Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs.

> >

> > It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op.

> >

> > Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land .

>

> You realize being easy to play and being overpowered are two extremely different concepts right?

>

> You are literally attacking my post for a point I wasn't even making.

>

> Chill the f*** out and reflect on your life choices.

 

If you think scourge is easy to play on a high level... Well there's no helping then.

But mindlessly spamming shade abilities, will make you loose 100% of the fights against good players. Also you have to be very good at positioning,

And if you don't have a firebrand that's holding hands with you all the time, you will have a very hard time and don't think scourge is easy to play.

 

I know many players that think, scourge is easy to play, faceroll, but when they meet another scourge/firebrand combo, with a good scourge that doesn't mindlessly spam, they always loose.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run.

> >

> > "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

> >

> > Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

> >

> > Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

> >

> > Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

> >

> > I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

> >

> > But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

> >

> > 2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition

> > 2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> > 2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.

> > 12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity

> > Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus

> > 2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> >

> > Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

> >

> > Or warriors who have:

> > Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance

> > 12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina

> > 6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off

> > Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

> >

> > Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

>

> -lesser smite 20s CD traited

> -Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited

> -Smite condi is 16 CD

> - CoP is 32s CD traited

> - RF is 84s CD

> -There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart...

>

> How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win

>

 

Long enough depending on skill. I'm not just some random pleb that has come to that conclusion either.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVzpKN1g1Wk

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run.

> > >

> > > "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

> > >

> > > Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

> > >

> > > Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

> > >

> > > Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

> > >

> > > I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

> > >

> > > But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

> > >

> > > 2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition

> > > 2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> > > 2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.

> > > 12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity

> > > Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus

> > > 2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> > >

> > > Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

> > >

> > > Or warriors who have:

> > > Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance

> > > 12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina

> > > 6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off

> > > Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

> > >

> > > Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

> >

> > -lesser smite 20s CD traited

> > -Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited

> > -Smite condi is 16 CD

> > - CoP is 32s CD traited

> > - RF is 84s CD

> > -There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart...

> >

> > How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win

> >

>

> Long enough depending on skill. I'm not just some random pleb that has come to that conclusion either.

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVzpKN1g1Wk

 

It seems that you judge professions based on how you fare against them 1v1...isn't that the basis of a biased opinion?

[Milan.9035]

And in team fights its even harder to keep up the condis.

 

You have a real problem with condi. Did something really dramatic hapoen to you?

[Milan.9035]

And you big essay Arheundel.6451. wow. You a politician or something?

 

Can you say what you said without considering mesmer and necro? Like does your opinion change about condi at all?

[Milan.9035]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run.

> >

> > "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

> >

> > Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

> >

> > Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

> >

> > Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

> >

> > I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

> >

> > But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

> >

> > 2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition

> > 2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> > 2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.

> > 12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity

> > Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus

> > 2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> >

> > Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

> >

> > Or warriors who have:

> > Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance

> > 12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina

> > 6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off

> > Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

> >

> > Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

>

> -lesser smite 20s CD traited

> -Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited

> -Smite condi is 16 CD

> - CoP is 32s CD traited

> - RF is 84s CD

> -There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart...

>

> How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win

>

 

You want them to be immune?? Lol

[UmbraNoctis.1907]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> [...]...why do people insist of using the same arguments to support their claims instead than use actual facts? [...]

Why do you do it?

 

> 1) **Passive Playstyle**

> - Playing a condi build in GW2 allows the user to enter a passive stance by forcing the opponent to take the initiative otherwise they'd die easily, the condi user can afford to play the "waiting game" , approach the game from a "fire and forget" point of view , the most simplistic tactic

>

Power is even more "fire and forget" because once the dmg is dealt, there is no way for the enemy to undo it. This can go as far as straight oneshots. Meanwhile for condi builds landing hard hitting skills alone means nothing, because the dmg might just get cleansed or outhealed, so constant reapplication of condis is mandatory. And this requires the player to do something - or with other words "to be active".

 

> 2) **Complete lack of counter condis/boons**

> -There are condi dimishing the dmg ratio of power builds ( weakness ) but there is nothing for condis , there are boons who diminish the efficacy of power build and they are available in ample supply for every class (protection/regen) . boons like 'retaliation' straight out dmg back the attacker...again there is nothing that works against condi builds : **condi player can keep launching attacks without ever worrying to check their bar or what boons the enemy has** ....yeah we have 'resistance' but this boon not only comes in a scarce quantity but can be also easily stripped

 

Retaliation is stronger **on** power builds, but not stronger **against** power builds, because the dmg scales with the power of the source, so this boon provides an advantage for power builds actually. Weakness and protection are usually stronger vs Power. Resistance is stronger vs Condi. Yes, the latter is less common, but also way more powerful - even weakness and protection together don't come close to 100% dmg reduction. Boonstrip is irrelevant for this argument, because it is not that common - unlike condi remove to counter weakness - and affects all boons (otherwise you might aswell note that protection and retaliation are easily removed).

>

> 3) **No base line stat that reduce dmg from condis**

> - If I build a toughness tank ..I automatically counterplay the vast majority of power builds, some become semi-redudant....what can I use against condis? I either have condi clear off CD or I die, simple as that

 

Toughness alone doesn't counter power builds. It reduces their dmg, but doesn't negate it. If you don't use additional defensive means, you are going to die, no matter how much toughness you stack. Just like cleanses reduce the dmg of condi builds but aren't (and shouldn't be!) your only defense. And that reduction can be much greater than the dmg reduction from toughness if utilized well. Additionally healing is more effective vs condi, because the dmg over time nature of condition damage grants more time for healing to do work, so to some extent healing power could be considered an anti condi stat.

>

> 4) **Insta cast aoe attacks, range AA**

> - the application of condis: it's instant , it's aoe and it's on low CD ..finally several low CD skills apply several condis on the same target , on the other hand the vast majority of condi clears skill/trait only deal with 1-2 condis and most time they will deal with the less threatening ones and here we go back to point 1 : "the waiting game" ,.

 

Condi skills are not in general aoe/instant/low casttime/low CD/ranged/whatever. Power skills are not always telegraphed/single target/long cd/melee/ ... The fact that most meta builds are power indicates that power skills are on average better than condi skills. There might be some exceptions, but those don't represent a general rule.

 

>

> 5) **Some condis do too much and are too readily available**

>

> -Confusion : punish the enemy for any action - tick dmg over time - stack in intensity for massive dmg spikes and mesmers can easily keep up to 10 stacks at any given time with zero effort

>

> -Torment : same as confusion only it punishes the enemy for moving, again mesmer can stack this condition quite reliably and together with confusion

>

> -Chill : increase CD , slow movements

>

> These 3 condis in particular do too much and can be too easily reapplied

>

 

Torment and confusion only do one thing - damage. That dmg can sometimes be reduced even without using any cooldowns - by not spamming skills or running arround like a headless chicken. Additionally those conditions are aviable in significant amounts only to a few classes.

 

Chill doesn't deal dmg and therefore is utilized by power builds just as well. In fact current meta condi builds (mirage, scourge) have little to no chill application unlike some common power builds.

 

Also many power skills do more than one thing.

 

>[....] yes condi builds are way easier to play than power, just gave you the raw facts, I'd love to see condi players to argue against them

 

Done (by a mostly "power player" btw)

 

Also to answer your initial question "why people like condi builds". They add variety, which makes the game more interresting.

 

 

[coro.3176]

It sounds like certain people are conflating "condi builds" with "condi mirage".

 

That's not surprising, since condi mesmer is basically the only viable condi build at the moment. However, there are a ton of other condi builds that would love to be playable.. just to list a few:

 

condi ranger

condi engi

condi revenant

condi guard

etc.

 

Those are NOT passive playstyle builds. Generally they take even more risk, having lower range, taking longer to deal damage, and with similar amounts of defense compared to their power counterparts. On top of that, there is TONS of cleanse out there nullifying their burst all day.